Moved: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

ruminator · Oct 13, 2015

The attractiveness rating system is a system of rating people based on looks from 1-10.

DISCLAIMER: do not take this as an attack on anyone who uses this system, and get defensive about it. I am just trying to understand what it did to ME.

I am a female, and never knew about or used such a system until recently when my boyfriend opened up to me about it (apparently a lot of males use this). He told me where I fall on the scale (8.5 apparently), and opened up about where he placed other girls. It became so casual to the point where we would walk on the street and he would say wow she is a 9, and make comments like that about other girls on a regular basis.

After months of this, it had started to affect the way I see myself. I am trying to make sense of why this is affecting me, below are my thoughts:

Before this rating system came into my life, I never ever had a self-image issue before. My whole life I was always happy with myself. In fact, I had maintained a fashion blog, and regularly followed various models. I always admired their beauty, but it still never caused me to have a self-esteem issue.

Now, after this rating system became a regular part of my life, that all changed. For example, now I would see a really good-looking girl, and think she is a 9, and I am an 8, and I would just see myself as beneath her (looks-wise), think how my boyfriend would be more attracted to her than me, feel like my beauty isn't as valuable as hers, etc.

Basically, before, even though I knew that some girls were prettier than me, I never felt inferior. I still felt like I could also be appreciated to the fullest by someone who cherished my own beauty. But now, I feel like I can never measure up to/be appreciated as much as the girls that are "higher" than me. & I'll always be inferior (looks-wise).

But I wonder, why do I feel this way now, when I was fine my whole life? What did this 'rating system' change?? I mean, when I maintained the fashion blog, I probably always knew in the back of my mind that those models were more perfect looking than me. But then how come that never affected my self-esteem but the rating system does??

Pyropyro · Oct 13, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

It's because the male in question that told you about this rating is intimate with you. We tend to listen more to people that we care about.

If a random girl said I'm worthless then I'll just brush it off. However, if it that person was my mom then I'll probably get really hurt.

Deleted member 1424 · Oct 13, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

Your boyfriend is a douche. :pueh:

rainman312 · Oct 13, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

This system bothers me because it doesn't start at zero, and is undefined. Is it linear? Logarithmic? Sporadically jumping around because it's highly subjective? Yes to all of them. In other words, it's a shitty system, and my advice is to not place so much value on it. It's also possible that you weren't fine your whole life, and you had these issues for a very long time, and they've just been hiding/manifesting themselves in different ways up until now. Just a possibility to consider.

Sinny91 · Oct 13, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

Yar, the persistent use would enough to nag at you subconsciously, and subsequently breed insecurity.

He appears to be a jerk for bringing it up and actually making a thing out of it. It's not uncommon in a lot of the men I know, but they don't advertise it to their girlfriends.

Trade him in for a 10

Is this the ESFP? Dump his ass, you can do better.

Cheeseumpuffs · Oct 13, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

Adaire said:
Your boyfriend is a douche.

Hear hear. What kind of asshole tells his girlfriend that?

This "system" is incredibly specific to the person using it. Just because your boyfriend told you that he thinks you're an 8.5 doesn't mean that you're now locked into that "score." Your self-worth shouldn't be completely determined by his opinion, and if you are that affected by him (which I don't judge. I know these things happen), he should at least have the basic decency to wield that power with some care, rather than spouting off about all the girls he thinks are prettier than you.

What a fucking dick.

Pyropyro · Oct 13, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

Adaire said:
Your boyfriend is a douche.

Sinny91 said:
Trade him in for a 10

Although a bit um... straightforward, I kinda agree with the ladies here.

EditorOne · Oct 13, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

I had a big long angry diatribe, because your boyfriend annoyed me grievously even without me meeting him, but I'm replacing it with this:

Tell him it's over. Tell him that thanks to his tutelage you now understand that on his best day he just barely approaches a five, and you're not having that. He'll get it, right?

:rip:

Helvete · Oct 13, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

Sounds like an immaturity issue on your boyfriends part to place such importance on such a shallow, subjective system purely based on looks.
It's something I used to hear a lot more when in my teens, but not so much anymore. There is so much more value to a person than a single persons opinion on their looks. If he's unlikely to see past this narrow minded viewpoint then I would be questioning the value of your relationship with him.

paradoxparadigm7 · Oct 13, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

I don't think your boyfriend is the problem. It's just his thing...and now yours? A rating he uses that he happened to tell you about. It's like when a partner makes a comment about someone attractive either in the media or if you run across someone who is beautiful. You both probably do that in your mind anyway. The point is it's meaningless. It's simply someone's (yours, his) subjective evaluation of beauty. Maybe he thinks of himself as a 5 and he's with an 8.5 in which case he's way ahead. Not to mention that he's with you because you bring more than your physical beauty like your inner beauty. The reason you've become obsessed and overly sensitive about your appearance is the number system blatantly points to a disparity. You may want to stop or add the rating system to men?

Ex-User (11125) · Oct 13, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

Adaire said:
Your boyfriend is a douche.

❤

Teax · Oct 13, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

The rating system is just a verbalization of an automatic part of human psychology, which in turn exists regardless of whether any single individual puts any value in it or not. Your horizon was broadened through the awareness of that meme but you don't want to hear about it all the time, just as you wouldn't want to know about every one of his farts. Make him aware. Removing exposure to the irritant and the symptoms will seize.

Insecurity is actually triggered by the question of how you look to others. (Insecurity is the process of trying to come to a conclusion about that question). And as much as people would like to pretend to be unaffected, repeat exposure is akin to brainwashing.

Yellow · Oct 13, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

A few explanations for your boyfriends extremely rude behavior come to mind:

[The Aesthete] Some men idly look at beautiful women the way you would look at a sunset or a pretty dress. It's a passing thing that doesn't diminish or in any way affect their attraction to you. These men don't usually verbalize a rating system because they are unlikely to think in such terms, but they may comment on occasion.

[The Masturbator] Some men enjoy the idea that their lady-love can appreciate the beauty of other women in the secret hope of girl-on-girl action. These men will attempt to actively engage you in the rating, and encourage you to make your own judgments about women. At length.

[The Douchebag] Some men like to compare their girlfriends to other women in an attempt to ward off the eventual "letting yourself go" point of the relationship because they really only find your appearance attractive. They will only point out "prettier" women when you're not looking your best.

[The Abuser] Some men will purposely poke, prod, and pull away your self-esteem by comparing you to other women as part of a multistep process to make sure that you doubt anyone else could ever love you. It makes you too insecure to leave, even when better options come along, or when their behavior escalates. They will rarely pass up an opportunity to put you down, that is unless they think you're getting fed up with it. Then they'll play nice just long enough to "remind you of the good times".

Either way, a woman in the 85th beauty percentile can statistically do better.

cheese · Oct 13, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

Why does it bother you now when it didn't before?

I think it's because of a few things:

1) You now have a system of measuring your attractiveness against others which implicitly claims to be objective by having numbers attached to it. Plus, you discuss it with your boyfriend and know he discusses it with other guys, giving it even more of an air of validity. You may have known before that other women were more attractive than you but not thought it mattered because you were also aware that appeal (which is the aspect of attraction that matters most in a relationship) is subjective. You were comfortable being "less aesthetically perfect" if you could assume you had your own unique appeal to offer to a few people. When your boyfriend rates all women along just one scale however, it suggests no consideration of appeal and the elimination of any subjective factor - meaning there's no wiggle room for you to be more appealing to him specifically. This gives you a hard value rather than a soft/vague one, and that gives the question of relative worth real weight. It detracts from whatever special connection you may have thought you had with him, where his attraction to you doesn't come solely down to your placement on a scale with all other women. It makes you feel less unique as a person and less unique to him, which strikes at the value of your relationship.

It might be worth asking him if he is more attracted to you - objectively/detachedly he may put you on a certain place on the scale, but on a personal/emotional/primal level you may be at the top and/or have those other factors which make you more valuable as an overall package such that this attractiveness rating barely enters into it. I think that could clear up some of the confusion you feel.

2) This one is something my partner and I call 'pie-charting'. Basically, talking about anything can appear to the listener to give it more prominence in your mind than it actually holds - simply because you haven't talked about all the other things you think about. You may have even been aware before that your boyfriend probably found other women more attractive than you on occasion, but the act of talking about it makes it seem like it's a much more frequent observation on his part - perhaps even that he's regularly motivated to compare you with others, since he compares all women anyway - than may actually be the case. Because you've started discussing women with him frequently, your mental 'pie-chart' of his desires/mental life has had a huge section of it taken up by 'assessing women's attractiveness', which makes it appear especially important to him - even though this may not be the case. It may just be one of many things he thinks about casually with very little attachment, but because neither of you talk about every single thing you think, you're unable to form charts which accurately weight the significance of each topic pondered in of the other's mind.

---> Of course, related to this point is the possibility that he *does* actually spend this much time putting women on a linear scale of appeal. I don't think this is a healthy mindset in general. (Unless perhaps people's attractiveness really holds no value to you - which makes the rating harmless as you're unable to potentially benefit from interacting with a higher-rated person. In essence, you're not shopping for anything. This could be another part of why you're bothered - if you know you're less 'perfect' than other women, it's fine to you. But if you know your boyfriend knows it too, then you might be in trouble because he's in the market for women.)

---> It's also possible he may have started doing it more since he was able to share it with you. If he is The Aesthete Yellow talked about, this can be a fun way of detaching from the "people scenery" and attempting to analyse it/find patterns and relate that to some sort of scale. Maybe he enjoyed being able to share this sort of appreciation with you and started devoting more time to it.

I had more reasons but I forgot, whoops! It sounds quite unpleasant to deal with.

It doesn't sound like he was being dickish necessarily. He may have been trying to open up and seeing an opportunity for closeness by being able to share a part of his mind traditionally shat upon by girlfriends.

Still, it *is* a sticky, difficult area to tread. If he *is* regularly comparing you to other women, I think that's an unhealthy habit that should be stopped.

Brontosaurie · Oct 13, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

While looks and numbers are both important, i find his constant attention to other women problematic. Maybe he thinks that you are opening up and plans to initiate sex with several women all at once, all of which have high numbers. This would really maximize his chances of having a prosperous offspring, but you must place your own needs first. Let him know you are uncomfortable and if he doesn't care, take measures to lower his number and then leave. That would be my advice.

ruminator · Oct 13, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

Thanks for the responses - for all those saying to break up with him, I agree it is the right thing to do. However, I feel like I have to sort this out first. I don't want this self esteem issue to haunt me forever. & I feel like, I need him in order to make it go away. Since he is the one that created this system in my head, having him denounce it would sort of nullify it for me. That's why I am hoping to talk to him about it and if he tells me it's not what I am taking it to be, or if he realizes the system is wrong, or something, that would erase it from my mind.

Regarding the system, I read through the comments about it, (thanks cheese for the really detailed one), and thought about it a lot and might have an idea of why it is causing problems for me:

I think there are two issues with it.

First, is the conflation between amount and value. Person A could have ten beautiful things about her, and Person B could have two beautiful things about her. So, Person A has more "beauty". But it is possible for someone to treasure and value the two things Person B has way more than the ten things Person A has.. Sometimes in life you are swept away by someone's looks and admire them way more than others, no matter how "perfect" others may be. Haven't you heard those sayings "no matter how perfect she is, she doesn't compare to you".

So, I feel like before, even though I knew other girls were more "good-looking" than me, I still thought my looks (no matter how small) could be valued just as much, if not more than theirs. But when you put a number on it, it feels more like a valuation ... it feels like since the "good looking" girls have a higher number, they also get higher value. So my beauty can never be cherished/valued as much as theirs, since it is always going to be a lower number.

I think this the opposite of what cheese was saying? Cheese said it is better for it to be subjective ... but the above indicates the subjectivity (valuation) is the problem?

It is possible to be like "oh well the scale is just objective, it is just measuring amount of looks, without measuring subjective value" ....... but...I don't know..it just doesn't feel very objective to me ...

The Gopher · Oct 13, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

I just want to point out that you shouldn't take the advice of people here too seriously.

I would also like to point out that it's entirely possible he is a dick. However anybody who infers that based of one paragraph about him with no context I quite frankly have no respect for.

Just kidding! I love you guys.

There is subjective and slightly less subjective levels of attractiveness. As I think has already been mentioned the longer you stay with someone the more Stockholm syndrome slips in an... the more you find the other person attractive. So even with that rating system if you hang around someone long enough the below paragraph isn't a problem.

"I still felt like I could also be appreciated to the fullest by someone who cherished my own beauty. But now, I feel like I can never measure up to/be appreciated as much as the girls that are "higher" than me. & I'll always be inferior (looks-wise). "

Also everyone is worse than someone in something. It takes some getting used to. What do you want to be appreciated for? Can you improve on those things? I don't necessarily mean romantically. However I do advocate for improving for improvements sake in every possible aspect.

See I used to be really cute young and attractive and people loved me for that but then I turned 16 and became too old and lost a lot of confidence which I only recovered by improving the rest of my life.

(now I'm onto a side rant feel free to ignore the rest of this post)

Baring anxiety confidence comes from competence. It comes from experience of succeeding and practice. For example nobody goes to brush their teeth and fears they will tear a hole in the side of their face. This is because that's never happened before and they have had years of experience.

Now nobody can be competent in every area. This is where you can borrow confidence from other areas. Say I am confident in my ability to run, jump, swim, and am a successful professional. I however suck at driving cars. Instead of having my inability to drive car's send me into crippling anxiety I can borrow the confidence I have from being successful in other areas and use that to define myself.

However that's just a side rant I was thinking of and probably not your problem.

/end side rant.

Tl;dr The others have it right in the sense they are doing the emotionally responsible thing which is putting down your boyfriend to make you feel better however without context this isn't completely reasonable. Use your knowledge to decide if he is or isn't a douche bag.

If he is a douche bag don't care about what he says. If he isn't still don't worry so much about his opinion/remember it's not objective, be comfortable in knowing you are amazing and that you are who you want to be/content. If you are not content work towards being content if possible and if not possible consider the overconfidence transfer technique described above..

I notice Cheese posted in the thread and while I haven't read it I normally agree with everything Cheese says.

Now I'm probably the douchebag.. *sigh*

Brontosaurie · Oct 13, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

Quantifying human beauty is a controversial idea, hopelessly surrounded by subjectivist dogma in order to protect the ugly from the truth of their doomed existence so that they may work instead of rot in bath tubs as their prerogative would rationally implore them. And so it is that only the incompetent and clueless will openly provide beauty measurements, and thus the available measurements are unreliable and based on incompetent and clueless parameters scarcely relevant to real female beauty - such as make-up, personal hygiene, lack of personality and possession of a firm and awkward butt attained through unnatural exercise, serving no function but to emulate fertility by mimicking the indicators twisted into utter perversion by mass culture.

A better measurement can and will be obtained by neuro-imaging techniques. What everybody knows in solitude will become undeniable fact: that some people truly are ugly and some are truly beautiful, and that personal taste is a largely insignificant factor. Also it will be evident that the ugly truly are lacking in performance , just like their repulsive exterior would instincively imply. Thankfully, no more ugly people need be born when the appropriate technology is in place. This will reduce innate stupidity and jeaolousy, thus help eliminate poor financial decisions and societal conflicts.

Minuend · Oct 13, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

^Why are ugly people doomed? In what performance are they lacking, is looking better correlated with intelligence?

Later edit: For some reason didn't see ruminators second post in thread when writing this.

--

I was going to write the same as Cheese. Perhaps you saw individuals as more fluid and the attraction was the sum of traits, looks, personality. But the rating system reduced value and attraction into a scale where only looks mattered, and which you might perceive as an objective truth because numbers. So now instead of being an interesting person who looks good, you're only a person who looks good and who can be replaced by anyone who looks better. This wasn't the case when your personality mattered, because then it would be harder to replace you.

The Gopher said:
I just want to point out that you shouldn't take the advice of people here too seriously.

I would also like to point out that it's entirely possible he is a dick. However anybody who infers that based of one paragraph about him with no context I quite frankly have no respect for.

Just kidding! I love you guys

It would probably be a very accurate for most people here for them. Rating people on a scale usually implies a poor understanding of attraction and people, and socially obliviousness and shortness..ness tends to create a douche, even if the douche tries hard to do everything correct. If you don't have a certain amount (or type) of social understanding, you're going to be a person who suck to a lot of other people. You're going to offend, annoy and say the wrong things to the wrong people.

--

Of course some people could be said to be better looking than others, but I'm talking about the implications of actively using a scale where you rate looks. Usually certain types of people are drawn to it for certain types of reasons.

--

Though, if ruminator is cut from a different cloth than those who responded, there is a possibility her flaws are on level with his (everyone has flaws), but not necessarily in terms of social obviousness. (People in relationships often have same level flaws). If so, the better thing in the long run is probably sorting this out by talking and ask if he could reduce or stop rating people on a scale or alternative solution which would be preferably to ruminator.

The Gopher · Oct 13, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

Minuend said:
It would probably be a very accurate for most people here for them. Rating people on a scale usually implies a poor understanding of attraction and people, and socially obliviousness and shortness..ness tends to create a douche, even if the douche tries hard to do everything correct. If you don't have a certain amount (or type) of social understanding, you're going to be a person who suck to a lot of other people. You're going to offend, annoy and say the wrong things to the wrong people.

Oh yeah, I was inferring and assuming about people's personal rating system based on one paragraph with no context.

However on a more serious note it comes down to judging intent or actions. I try to hold judgment until I understand intent and I make fun of myself judging the actions of others based on their judgment of the actions of others.

The Gopher said:
However on a more serious note

*sigh* I really try. It's so incredibly hard.

cheese · Oct 13, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

ruminator said:
Thanks for the responses - for all those saying to break up with him, I agree it is the right thing to do. However, I feel like I have to sort this out first. I don't want this self esteem issue to haunt me forever. & I feel like, I need him in order to make it go away. Since he is the one that created this system in my head, having him denounce it would sort of nullify it for me. That's why I am hoping to talk to him about it and if he tells me it's not what I am taking it to be, or if he realizes the system is wrong, or something, that would erase it from my mind.

Regarding the system, I read through the comments about it, (thanks cheese for the really detailed one), and thought about it a lot and might have an idea of why it is causing problems for me:

I think there are two issues with it.

First, is the conflation between amount and value. Person A could have ten beautiful things about her, and Person B could have two beautiful things about her. So, Person A has more "beauty". But it is possible for someone to treasure and value the two things Person B has way more than the ten things Person A has.. Sometimes in life you are swept away by someone's looks and admire them way more than others, no matter how "perfect" others may be. Haven't you heard those sayings "no matter how perfect she is, she doesn't compare to you".

So, I feel like before, even though I knew other girls were more "good-looking" than me, I still thought my looks (no matter how small) could be valued just as much, if not more than theirs. But when you put a number on it, it feels more like a valuation ... it feels like since the "good looking" girls have a higher number, they also get higher value. So my beauty can never be cherished/valued as much as theirs, since it is always going to be a lower number.

I think this the opposite of what cheese was saying? Cheese said it is better for it to be subjective ... but the above indicates the subjectivity (valuation) is the problem?

It is possible to be like "oh well the scale is just objective, it is just measuring amount of looks, without measuring subjective value" ....... but...I don't know..it just doesn't feel very objective to me ...

This is actually exactly what I was saying.

A rating system measures you along the same axes as everyone else, making it impossible for you to be valued more for your specific traits and other characteristics (this is the 'appeal' I talked about, which is subjective, and more important). Your 'value' becomes a fixed number which can't be escaped from, since the scale is linear and one-dimensional, and all women are rated on it. (This is the illusion of objectivity - when in reality, appeal/personal attractiveness to a specific observer is quite subjective, and can't really be placed on a rating system which has use for anyone other than that particular observer.) It IS possible for you to be valued/cherished above others, since personal attractiveness and appeal is ultimately subjective, ie dependent on the observer. But the system creates the illusion that it isn't.

If this still doesn't make sense to you, don't worry about it. I'm not explaining it very well.

In essence, what you said is what I was trying to say.

WALKYRIA · Oct 13, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

HAHA, 8.5 is a fucking hot bitch... U should be happy with it since very few women are at that level. To give an analogy, it's a bit like being intellectually and IQ wise gifted... If you are in the 130 area. Feel blessed because only 2% of people in your area are your intellect worth. Now if you ever stumble on a person with 160 IQ, why feel jealous or insecure? You are very smart, and being smarter wouldnt likely augment your quality of life or lifestyle.

Another thing is don't focus your enegy on your one sole quality( beauty, intellect,..Etc). To be honnest, being truely gifted is not about being gifted in one area, but being gifted in the most areas possible... MONEY/LOOKS/INTELLECT/ACADEMICS/ FAMILY, LOVE and RELATIONSHIP/ ARTISTIC.... and tg stay humble about it HAHA, to be frank I know of very few people who are gifted( or even averagely succesful) in all those area.. Most of time rich people/// financially succesfull people fail with people( family, love, friends).
Or if they happen to be highly goodlooking, they tend to do well in entertaining.. but fail in the intellectual area. To be even more frank, I know of very few people who are both: Gifted in looks( >8) and gifted in intellect( >130 IQ).... Thus very few balanced people.

So yeah, in conclusion, don't worry if your in the top 2% lookwise vs top 1% lookwise, it doesnt change anything you still are above average and people don't need more. Your boyfriend is being dumb about the whole thing... she might be more beautiful but you could be more charged with charm...etc.

SO yeah, I would go as far as to say that if I had the opportunity to date HB 8.5 than I would be a lucky dude... Me myself I'm a 8.5 and I 've remarked that girls my level of looks are 1° rare 2° are arrogant lookwise 3° tend to be dumber... So I always fail with beautiful women. Also, let's not forget that a beautiful woman gets more power of society( of males giveing her whatever she wants) than a handsome man does.(Because you really except women to tell you/ show you on a daily basis how fucking sexy you are? No way, women just don't do that... Thye only will respond in a favourable way but don't expect more...). So basically because of the "social stigma" constant fear of women, we get an assymetrical society where it's forbidden for men to be shallow and encouraged for women to be shallow.

The losers are the goodlooking men... They start nice( when young and admired by the socially uncorupted girls) , but end up bitter( when women get socialized better). Beautiful women(>7) will never understand this power discrepancy ... To give an example: Go in a club/bar, you'll find enormously a lot of great looking men in there because average men can't compete in such an environement; contrarely to men, you'll have women of questionable quality in there in need of an ego stroke. ( goodlooking and stylish, courageaous,..Etc). This state of things is depressing you know.... and that's what we have in almost all public area.
The only method I found for goodlooking dudes is to find a private niche and to dominate it... in public youa re pretty much screwed.

Anyway, if you are 8.5 girl... feel blessed, you are at least model material and you can get away with many things and get a lot of things out of men... Not because of you.. remember.. but because of the societie's architecture. And your boyfriend wether he's dumb, wether he's testing you or wether he wants to quit you...or maybe he thinks you like that and you'r self secure enough as to tolerate his behaviour, since you worked with models. Who knows?

Tannhauser · Oct 13, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

^ IQ and the 1-10 rating. That's all this guy needs to solve the mysteries of life.

ruminator · Oct 19, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

Cheese

You seem to be thinking along the same lines as I was - which is comforting because I thought I was going crazy :x

But let me get this straight. Are you saying the scale is actually objective (but gives the appearance of subjectivity), or actually subjective (but gives the appearance of objectivity)?

I was thinking,
IF the scale were truly objective, that would not feel as bad. I would think "Well, I do agree that she objectively is more perfect looking than me, but who cares, as long as my bf subjectively is more attracted to me." (It is inflexible, but irrelevant, because only subjective attraction truly matters.)
IF the scale were truly subjective, that would feel better. I would think "Well, if he rates her higher, meaning he is subjectively attracted to her more, who cares, as long as I find someone else who finds me the most attractive." (It is flexible, but manageable because of its flexible nature).

So ..... maybe the reason the scale is causing a problem is because rather than being one or the other, it appears to be both?

What do you think?

WALKYRIA

If the scale is objectively fixed, like IQ, I would have to accept what you are saying. It's just that it is sad to think of it as fixed, I never thought of it that way, because I always thought there was a subjective element to attraction.

B00Bz · Oct 19, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

Adaire said:
Your boyfriend is a douche.

This.

WALKYRIA · Oct 20, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

If the scale is objectively fixed, like IQ, I would have to accept what you are saying. It's just that it is sad to think of it as fixed, I never thought of it that way, because I always thought there was a subjective element to attraction.

Hey, lol... It's a rather hard thing for women ( who tend to be more morally enclined than men when it comes to such issues) to accept that men generally have a fixed rating scale for attractiveness. But that's just plain reality. Most men though find most women(>80) moderately attractive, and the rest really beautiful(10%) or really ugly(10%). That is why men tend to have sex easier even with women they find to be average.
Contrarely to men, unfortunately, women find most men( >80%) physically unattractive.... which is I think so sad.

So the situation is already assymetrical( more attractive women than men) to begin with, but you can't blame evolution, it only did it's job afterall because men were never meant to be physically attractive( they were meant to be strong, strategic in hunting, and gather ressources, have power in tribe..Etc) contrarely to women.

All this above is the reason why women believe attraction to be subjective( because they evolved to take more things in consideration than looks when selecting for a mate.), while a man could almost marry you based on your " objective/assessed" looks... lol double standard hey...

Conclusion for the females who didnt know:
---> Female attractiveness= 90% objective (aka gene quality: boobies, ass, face) + 10% subjective( charm, look,..Etc)
---> Male attractiveness= 30% objective(aka gene quality: tall, strong, face...Etc) + 70% subjective( money, ressources, personnality,charm,...Etc)

So let me iterate it in other words: Goodlooking men without personnality(early INTPs) and ugly girls with great personality are screwed and losing in this lol.

:kodama1:

Brontosaurie · Oct 20, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

^ Very true

Why are so many people uncomfortable with this generalization? And also, why do people think generalization and categorical statement/judgment are the same?

Brontosaurie · Oct 20, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

Minuend said:
^Why are ugly people doomed? In what performance are they lacking, is looking better correlated with intelligence?
.

Physical beauty is an indicator of reproductive fitness, primary and secondary. It is a means for us to choose a partner, not just some arbitrary isolated phenomenon. Intelligence is adaptive and thus reflected in beauty. Naturally we're talking about base intelligence and not acquired knowledge. Many ugly people are learned. Many beautiful people are jocks and bimbos, which may seem unintelligent by academic standards.

There is nothing reasonable about assuming an evenly distributed total score of graces. Specimen quality is variable. Genetic combinations differ in success, and epigenetic developments differ in success. It's simple biology. Some people are better humans than others. We all realize this when we look at extremes, but contrary to convenient belief, it holds true all along the spectrum.

That being said, there's nothing to say it's impossible that a very ugly person is also very intelligent. It's just unlikely.

WALKYRIA · Oct 20, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

I was about to start a whole big text on the subjectivity or objectivity of someone's beauty, but then I realized- due to the way you candidely asked those questions - that it's something that's very difficult to explain to a heterosexual women... Basically to be brief, men rate women objectively but they also happen to have subjective types.
:elephant:

WALKYRIA · Oct 20, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

That being said, there's nothing to say it's impossible that a very ugly person is also very intelligent. It's just unlikely.

This curiously reminds me of the halo effect, powerful one... :rolleyes:

ruminator · Oct 20, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

WALKYRIA said:
I was about to start a whole big text on the subjectivity or objectivity of someone's beauty, but then I realized- due to the way you candidely asked those questions - that it's something that's very difficult to explain to a heterosexual women... Basically to be brief, men rate women objectively but they also happen to have subjective types.

Well when I said I thought beauty is subjective, I wasn't referring to overall attractiveness (including personality, etc), I was referring strictly to physical appearance.

But I think even within physical appearance, there is a difference between objectively judging someone's physical appearance and subjectively doing so. It's like if your wife has a crooked tooth (which you find endearing), and some other girl has perfect teeth, you would objectively think the other girl has "better"/more perfect teeth, but you personally love/cherish your wife's crooked tooth more than a perfect, more objectively better tooth. & some people would not want their wife to get rid of it and get a fake perfect tooth, because even though it is a flaw, they've come to love it about her.

J-man · Oct 20, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

It's true what they say, that attraction is subjective. I see guys rating girls I find ugly, as 9's. I'm not exaggerating. Assuming you're straight, I don't think you can even judge a girl's attractiveness. Guys in the PUA crowd will look at a woman and try to judge her looks "objectively". It's like they're saying, "Well this looks like a girl that other guys would want to bang, so I'm going to try to get her in bed." It's a total ego trip. It's ugly. It's sad. It's a mental illness as far as I'm concerned.

That said, it sounds very likely that your boyfriend is involved in the "pickup artist" crowd online. In which case, his telling you about it is a tactic to bring your self perceived value down so that you will want him more. It's also bringing him up by putting you in a frame where he is the judge and everyone else is subjected to his judgement. If I were you I would study "Game" a little bit and then grill him about it. See what he's made of. You'll know if he's read about it. Read The Game by Neil Strauss if you're really interested. You'll be better equipped to deal with fake men.

I also want to say that this system your boyfriend uses, it has nothing to do with you. You may not want to let it go, but it's true. What somebody thinks about you has nothing to do with you. You are what you are, regardless, and that doesn't change as much as your mind thinks it does.

Aside from all that, looks are not the single determining factor of attraction. Attraction is richly complex and impossible to condense into a formula. Multiply that by 7 billion. When it comes down to it, comparing yourself to another person is pointless.

-------

I want to point out how triggered people in this thread are. I thought this was INTP forum. What happened to being cold and rational? There is no use for moral judgements.

kora · Oct 20, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

Agree 100% with J-man. Also I would start rating guys around you when you're together so he gets a taste of the insecurity + silliness of the thing. Also I'm a 10 so I don't care. 4chan told me so and they hold the objective truth.

In all seriousness though, I get why it makes you uncomfortable. This sort of thing is mind poison and I think that personally, I would try to find someone who didn't make me feel this way or view the world this way. That being said, I don't know him so can't really judge.

This is a generational PUA thing, not natural. Our parents did not do this, no guy in the 1940's would have seriously considered looking at people this way I think, although there have always been beauty ideals of course. Porn culture crap in my opinion. I remember at school guys would call out ratings to new girls as they walked out of the dining hall. That was incredibly demeaning and a symptom of something deeper, some attitude problem. This is internalized and not called out explicitly so less shit, but it is the same symptom. I rate him 1/10 for this.

ruminator · Oct 20, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

J-man & Higs

Thanks for your comments, they made me laugh =) It makes sense what you are saying. But I think the one thing that allows me to let this affect me, and take it so seriously, is because I cannot find a reason to denounce it, or not care about it.

I think it IS a fact that there are people out there who are better looking than me. & if that is all the scale is saying, then I would have to take the scale seriously because it is true.

I can only stop caring about the scale, if I find something in it that isn't true, or something in my interpretation of it that is a flawed assumption I'm making.

The reason I brought up how I never felt insecure around models BEFORE the scale, is because the discrepancy between how I felt before the scale, and how I feel now is important.

If the scale is simply reflecting the fact that there are better looking people out there, then I should feel the same as I always felt (since I always knew this). The very fact that I feel different now indicates that the scale is telling me something more than that.

And that additional thing is what is causing the problem. So that additional thing needs to be identified.

I guess a simpler way of saying it is ... I need to know why the scale makes me feel bad in order to determine if it is something worth feeling bad about.

WALKYRIA · Oct 20, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

Higs, the girl you'r posting is actually a 9 +- 1( 8-10). Don't be silly, although their are variations depending on the men.. they are never that extreme since men rate women based on objective data and consensus.

Check this out: http://www.returnofkings.com/16258/debating-the-mighty-1-to-10-scale

or here

emmabobary · Oct 20, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

....amazing! :'D

Brontosaurie · Oct 20, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

Whoever made that big rating picture is quite clueless. Many are in the wrong range, both up and down.

Also the descriptions and rating system are outrageously incoherent and stupid. Co-factoring "style" and "hygiene" simply isn't serious. And yet they've spent hours making this stupid chart.

Yellow · Oct 21, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

^^^ My thoughts, exactly. Also, those were just faces. Body is important. Now. I'm really tempted to make my own list. I may or may not add it.

Brontosaurie · Oct 21, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

Yellow said:
^^^ My thoughts, exactly. Also, those were just faces. Body is important. Now. I'm really tempted to make my own list. I may or may not add it.

Will it be women or men? I suggest women. As we all know, men don't really have looks. We just have power, leverage, mayhem and shit. Looks are kind of like nipples.

Yellow · Oct 21, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

Brontosaurie said:
Will it be women or men? I suggest women. As we all know, men don't really have looks. We just have power, leverage, mayhem and shit. Looks are kind of like nipples.

I was thinking women, but men could be done too. Men have looks. It's just that women are slightly less inclined to objectify mates for their looks out of context (not for any noble reasons, it's just that looks aren't everything). Many men say the same, of course. Not the point. The point is, I could totally make a dude 1-10 too.

Sinny91 · Oct 21, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

You should do men and women, and the subjects should be the forum members. Can we have a photo Bronto? Lol, and how about you BOOBz?

redbaron · Oct 21, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

Bronto is 8.6/10.

Sinny91 · Oct 21, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

Oh did somebody finally lock you two inside of a closet?

redbaron · Oct 21, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

He's been in my closet for years.

onesteptwostep · Oct 21, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

Little do people know that Bronto has a scar on his forehead..

Urakro · Oct 21, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

ruminator said:
J-man & Higs

Thanks for your comments, they made me laugh =) It makes sense what you are saying. But I think the one thing that allows me to let this affect me, and take it so seriously, is because I cannot find a reason to denounce it, or not care about it.

I think it IS a fact that there are people out there who are better looking than me. & if that is all the scale is saying, then I would have to take the scale seriously because it is true.

I can only stop caring about the scale, if I find something in it that isn't true, or something in my interpretation of it that is a flawed assumption I'm making.

The reason I brought up how I never felt insecure around models BEFORE the scale, is because the discrepancy between how I felt before the scale, and how I feel now is important.

If the scale is simply reflecting the fact that there are better looking people out there, then I should feel the same as I always felt (since I always knew this). The very fact that I feel different now indicates that the scale is telling me something more than that.

And that additional thing is what is causing the problem. So that additional thing needs to be identified.

I guess a simpler way of saying it is ... I need to know why the scale makes me feel bad in order to determine if it is something worth feeling bad about.

I'm making assumptions here, but maybe it has to do with social pressure. The same way a person can be pressured into drinking, or pressured on a job. It didn't bother you before because you felt it wasn't expected out of you. But now it's quite different. Trying to be accommodating, but now the rules have changed.

Our perceptions are more illusionary than most people think. With faces and beauty, there is objectively only lines and our brain colours the rest in. Similar to those contests where everyone is given an egg outline, and everyone colours it in to it to make unique faces. Last year's winner was very unique, it had spiky hair and nose rings. This year, there is a surplus of contestants who drew a lot of rebellious faces with piercings.

As J-man said, the chemistry thing is wildly unpredictable, and there is no scientific variables to describe it. Many times, I have told myself "I can never be attracted to a person with x", then fate deals the cards in complete defiance of it.

With Walkeria's rating poster, I clearly see it as a form of propaganda or a thought virus. What gets me is the owner of the poster is turned away from disfigurements, yet still:

Maybe someone can help me out with finding disfigured alien girls that men still say are sexy. Something that's green and with three tits or something.

Meh, the whole attraction, sex, love, friend (whatever) thing is all over-rated anyways. It's just a drug that blinds us from each other's less-than-desirable parts inside. Although, flex a perception enough, and anyone could even see the beauty in that.

Brontosaurie · Oct 21, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

Sinny91 said:
You should do men and women, and the subjects should be the forum members. Can we have a photo Bronto? Lol, and how about you BOOBz?

This is a deliciously terrifying idea.

Fukyo · Oct 21, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

I remember some animated gif of himself Bronto posted ages ago. He was reasonably qt but the twitchiness detracted from the overall impression

Seteleechete · Oct 21, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

Funny thing WALKYRIA I was most attracted to one of the girls that scored 6 (4th from the right). Some of those 9s and most of the 8/7s seem so...bland. From first impression the 6s(that don't look old) seem by far the most interesting group.

But I think it's a personal thing, what the appearance of most of those 8/7/half the 9s tell me of their personality(prejudice of course) instantly makes them less attractive(even based on physical attraction).

I'll have to take the subjective camp here simply based on personal experience.
Or maybe this is just a bad datasample for me... actually that is likely. I never felt the inclination to use a score based system anyway.

The Gopher · Oct 21, 2015

Re: Attractiveness ratting system effects on self-esteem

Sinny91 said:
You should do men and women, and the subjects should be the forum members. Can we have a photo Bronto? Lol, and how about you BOOBz?

I could totally do that! Both male and female, don't tempt me...

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