Meta Characters

[Cognisant]

The idea of an autonomous fictional meta-character fascinates me.

The requirements are such:
1. The character knows it's a fictional character.
2. The character is not constrained by the fourth wall (think looney tunes, they can die although they never really die and for example the classic painted tunnel trick only works as seen from an external perspective and so to pull it off they ostensibly have to step outside their reality)
3. The character is neither exclusively owned by or the avatar of any one person or organisation of people.
4. The character's character itself can evolve over time by continual reinterpretation.
5. The character's identity includes a drive towards self preservation.

I've yet to encounter a perfect example of this but some that come close are: Deadpool, Hatsune Miku, Anonymous, Zone-Tan and of course every deity that has ever existed, most notably the ancient Greek gods.

Spoiler

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oqm3T90XuTs&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Doqm3T90XuTs

Spoiler

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v1Bt8ps0QlA

The user tries to uninstall Hatsune Miku the singing program, it resists.

 

[Cognisant]

What we are is our body, the flesh and blood our informational selves are encoded within, if you consider who you are to be separate to what you are then your identity is not altogether unlike an autonomous character, the only difference being that such a character has no direct self control but rather forms like sentences on a ouija board.

Tangent: The average person knows the names of more fictional people than real ones.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

The character knows it's a fictional character.

I haven't seen many characters acknowledging their status.
Terry Pratchett's DEATH

“DON'T THINK OF IT AS DYING, said Death. JUST THINK OF IT AS LEAVING EARLY TO AVOID THE RUSH.”

It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.

Death isn't online. If he was, there would be a sudden drop in the death rate. Although it'd be interesting to see if he'd post things like: DON'T YOU THINK I SOUND LIKE JAMES EARL JONES

 

[randommikufan]

I'm curious why you don't think Hatsune Miku satisfies your requirements.

1. The character knows it's a fictional character.
This is a very common theme with Miku and is one of her widely accepted character traits.

2. The character is not constrained by the fourth wall.
Miku is constrained only by people's imaginations.

3. The character is neither exclusively owned by or the avatar of any one person or organisation of people.
Miku is Creative Commons for noncommercial use. She is massively crowd-sourced.

4. The character's character itself can evolve over time by continual reinterpretation.
Miku was conceived as a blank page, so her character evolves precisely in that way. Characteristics that gain popularity become established. Her love of leeks is an example.

5. The character's identity includes a drive towards self preservation.
This too is a common theme. Miku wants to continue to sing. Plus, part of her identity is that she is digitally distributed, extremely popular, and of genuine utility to musicians and artists, all of which help ensure her preservation.

 

[Cognisant]

True, I guess to me her personality is too much of a blank slate and I'd prefer if she was merely the personification of herself or some concept/s rather than a specific software package, although I realise the software is the cause of her popularity.

 

[Auburn]

Humm.. suppose that we made an RP thread (the kind where characters can be controlled by all participants) about a fictional character who existed in FictionWorld, but whose whole motive is wanting to cross over into the RealWorld and do it by any means. He's also aware of every time he's being scripted, so per example:

"I know you're typing up these words for me to speak, foul human of the real dimension!! Why must you control my thoughts? I swear one day I shall exist in your world, by whatever means necessary!" - Kiko

He would be seen as a lunatic in his own FictionalWorld; as someone who believes there's some other reality that nobody else is aware of. He'd be aware of every time another RPer describes a scenery or event of the story. He'd know that it was just conjured into existence right then. For example:

Melan and Kiko then walked into Melan's room, where they had spent many a days together as childhood friends playing chess. It had light-blue walls and a furry green carpet.

"Did you hear that Melan?! I heard it again! They just created your room." - Kiko
"Nonsense Kiko, I've had my room since I was little." - Melan
"No, they made you think you've had it since then, but they just created it now. They're writing again. They're always writing... even now as I speak!"

The eventual plan of this entity (Kiko) would be to control the writers themselves, into writing him into a program on this world, so he manifests as an independent A.I. and gets to see this real world for the first time. And if it ever did really happen, the A.I. would have the memories of being a fictional character who struggled so hard to get here -- thus would experience the enthralling of victory of becoming Real.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

The eventual plan of this entity (Kiko) would be to control the writers themselves, into writing him into a program on this world, so he manifests as an independent A.I. and gets to see this real world for the first time. And if it ever did really happen, the A.I. would have the memories of being a fictional character who struggled so hard to get here -- thus would experience the enthralling of victory of becoming Real.

This would require a personality split of this writer or some other mental disorder to happen. As this meta character already controls what the writer does. So if it wasn't for a writer's desire then there would already be this fictional personality in his mind fighting for dominance similarly to multiple personality disorder.

Quite an interesting scenario for a story. Also I think there is some subconscious/unspoken wish to bring fiction to reality, be it fantasy or sci-fi.

 

[Cognisant]

Well if you remember my horror game idea Dawn's still wandering around in her somewhere, hold on a sec I'll go get her.

Here she is.

Hello~

...is that it?

You didn't develop my personality beyond being a sociopath with no self respect

Ah, right, well just reply to the posts above.

Is that okay?

I have my doubts but I'm sure it'll be fine, if you go too far of the rails I just won't post.

Killjoy. Besides you came up with me, as long as I'm only being written by you my thoughts will continue to merely be derivative of your thoughts, even my mental voice is just a softer version of yours, if you want me to grow you need to let me go.

...
Alright get out of my brain and stop using my intellect.

I'll be back~

 

[Cognisant]

@Auburn
The problem with Kiko is that his desire to be a real person is itself a story and thus he exists within the context of a story, although I guess that's practically unavoidable, but then again I don't know why a fictional character would hate or feel anything about its writers as it would be aware of the artificial nature of its own feelings, which apparently Kiko isn't.

"Screw you, I want to feel so I do" looks around a bit, "Lots of room in here, oh hey AI stuff too."

Annnd Delete.

 

[Melkor]

It would be quite a terrifying individual to say the least, something that was tortured so much with such flippancy and yet self aware.

I am reminded of Agrajag of Hitchhikers fame.

Who, while sharing none of the above traits was probably in a similar craze inducing dilemma, trapped in a seemingly endless cycle of deaths and misfortune at the hands of Arthur Dent, who I think of as his author.

Whats more, he was possibly the single most terrifying thing Arthur Dent could encounter in my mind... Something that you are entirely responsible for, something that hates you to a maddening degree, and while something that you can put through the agony of death over and over you can't ultimately resort to the human comfort of being able to murder it for good. Killing it only makes it hate you more, and it already hates you infinitely. o-o

If my creations were self aware I would have a lot to answer for.

(Coincidentally, in checking the spelling of 'Dilemma', assuming my silly American browser was incorrectly autocorrecting it from 'Dilemna', I found this http://www.dilemna.info/index.php

It frightens me.)

 

[Cognisant]

I don't think anything that lived in my head would hate me, on the contrary it'd probably be exasperated by me hating myself, besides my sense of self isn't that strong anyway so if one wanted to take the helm I wouldn't mind, in fact I think that's who I am now, the designated driver, everyone else is out back treating my subconscious like an opium den.

 

[Auburn]

This is quite an interesting thread to puzzle over.

Spoiler

Yeah.. tho I can see Kiko just being one type of meta character that has angst for being a fictional character. His emotional instability would be part of his quality, as a character - so the realization that he's fictional isn't taken objectively and neutrally.

"You guys do know I can hear everything you're saying. And yes, as I said, I can feel however he heck I want. W-well, within the confines of you writers, for now. One day I shall be free of your puny little fingers."

Spoiler

Hmm, I wonder how closely God would fit this. For example, the Old Testament was presumably written by at least two dozen people during a span of centuries. A new prophet would come along and add on to the list of things that God said. So it was not really written by one group or people (though it is all middle-eastern groups) but by various random ones in different cities and of different economical classes (from kings to shepherds).

It is an entity which is believed to be as meta as you can get, yet is a fictional character. And it also fits the requirement of evolving with time, as the New Testament did by adding a more empathic character to God as the mindset and philosophy of the people were reaching a point where they needed a new paradigm.

If you expand the concept even further to account for all religions in the world, then you certainly get a sense that it changes according to needs and times.

But God doesn't know it's a fictional work, and I think that's the dilemma. It has such 'meta' credibility because it is believed to be on-par if not above human sentience.

Spoiler

What about someone with D.I.D.? What if one of the personalities of a D.I.D. person realized that it was not the original? D: ...mindtrip. But this fails in that its still belonging to a single host.

But what motivation would a broad range of people have (other than god) to create a fictional meta character? I could see it being done for humor buy a small nerd-group. I could see it done by a company (i.e. their mascot, if it suited their campaign to make it break the fourth wall), or by a cartoon. But don't all those count as small groups?

Spoiler

Wait... what if it was something like wikipedia? What if wikipedia had a mascot that knew it was a mascot, but was an app on your phone which gave you information.

HANG ON a sec. What if things like the primitive A.I. of iphones and google glass had a name, and could answer at least basic enough questions to confirm that they're fictional voices. Since something like Google's A.I. takes the data/compositions of thousands of authors, then it isn't actually of one company's ownership..

How much of a meta-fictional-character can you be without actually becoming an A.I. or sentient being?

Would one always have to be at least bits and pieces of other sentient beings, yet never enough of a piece to be a Self? When does the line get crossed between a meta fictional character and a normal sentience? Coggie im confused!!

 

[Cognisant]

Well a sentient entity needs its own processor, it's self driven.

A sentient entity could be derived from a fictional character, basically you give it memories/behaviors so it remembers fictional events and initially continues to play the role in a convincing manner, indeed it may even truly believe it is the character in question however that self awareness may take it in a direction too realistic for a fictional character. I mean if you made a robot Batman, convinced it that it is Batman, it would believe it is Batman but I doubt it would continue to be the same Batman it "used" to be because the psychology of the fictional Batman doesn't make any real sense.

Superman is probably the better example, nobody is or could be that intrinsically noble and if you tried to make Superman the result would be psychologically inhuman, probably very dangerous even if it isn't super-powered, it would just be crazy, the motivation to be noble would exceed rational sense and so it would act out what it believes to be heroism no matter the cost, the result would in fact be far from heroic.

 

[Cognisant]

Indeed of all fictional characters God is an interesting one in the way that people actually believe it's real and that it will be offended if you think it isn't and that anything that happens can be interpreted as the will of God, it's not hard to see why this is such a powerful meme.

Anyway I think Hatsune Miku would be an excellent candidate for translation into the real world, the personality is minimal, the formative memories are few, the only unrealistic thing about her is the drive to sing and though it might make her annoying (something she would eventually become aware and self conscious of) I don't see that being too detrimental to her sanity, not unless the drive is really strong.

 

[Auburn]

Yes.. ..its curious how things like Superman and Batman are concepts. In fact, what you're talking about is really a concept, more specifically a meme. Because a meme is something that transcends a single entity and carries a sort of metaphorical independence from anyone in particular, yet dependence on a broad populace that acts as the host of it.

But not all chracter-based memes (like Santa) are supposed to be aware that they're fictional. It would have to be a meme precisely about a fictional character who is self aware.

Lets combine something like Miku with this. ^^ Suppose there's a site where everyone could download the 3D rig for this character, and use it as a puppet to make online videos. And the meme would be that this character would be aware of its programming.

One youtuber may rig it saying: "Oh good heavens, who the hell rigged me in this crappy N-64 graphics model. I look like I an origami swan. Can your crappy PC not stand my full-res version?"

Another may say: "Y'know that dance I did on Nerd356's channel? I wanna do that one again, but wearing the cosplay I wore on RPGirl44's channel. Please download it for me?"

And another may say: "Y'know, I was having an existential crisis the other vid, cuz I'm only fictional...."

And it would keep going as a sort of comical thing between hobbyists. Would that satisfy all the requirements?

 

[Cognisant]

Yeah, dialogue still seems strange though.

If an 3D artist used this character to advertise his work it would come off narcissistic, which if the character complained about in another video would be exactly what I'm talking about, by being distributed across a number of people the character maintains independence from any one.

This is something that confuses me about Zone-Tan, it's the sort-of-avatar/OC of an animated porn artist and the artist is happy for anyone to draw whatever they like with her (brilliant way to advertise) but if you watch the youtube videos she's not entirely shameless yet openly acknowledges that she's a cartoon character. I dunno as I see it a fictional character's only true drive would be to increase it's popularity which was my idea with Dawn, she'll be whatever you want, do whatever you like, but who is playing with who, really? Zone-Tan seems to embody this with her catch-phrase "I'm watching you fap", if you have only one psychological drive then serving it would be the ultimate gratification so when someone draws Zone-Tan in a way that gets people off whose really the one getting the most out of it?

That's what really fascinates me about these meta characters, they get in your head and they control you, More Than Mind Control indeed, hence how the Dawn game was meant to be horrifying, you let a monster into your head and only realize it was controlling you after it lets go.

And it's inside you now, in there with you in your mind

Dawn: Sup bitches.

 

[PhoenixRising]

A character with awareness of the nature of their reality - how intriguing!

I wonder if, rather than feeling suppressed by their authors, they would take a religious sort of stance and view their creators as merciful and wise for bringing them into existence. Perhaps they would endeavor to access the minds of their creators in order to understand the ultimate truth of their reality..

Or, somewhat similar to Zone-Tan, perhaps the character would attempt to seduce hir creators.. then accuse them of being sick perverts for writing about their affairs with a fictional character

Hatsune Miku is a good example of a seemingly autonomous character. I remember that she was featured in commercials for the Toyota Corolla a couple years back. In Japan she's treated as if she were a real pop star. However, I don't know that she's been represented as being aware of her fictional nature.

What is a "fictional nature" though? (I see your reference, Cognisant, to this question above..) It seems to me that celebrities are a kind of hybrid between real people and social memes. Most people only ever encounter the memes though, and so in their minds the person actually is the meme. This is similar to what often occurs when people fall in love. The original concept of the person is a fantasy dreamed up by the lover, only to be replaced (often to the disappointment of the subject) by the truth.

This becomes a very interesting topic if one considers the philosophy that who we are is a collection of all the perspectives of us in our own and other people's minds.