Men from mountain, Women from valley

[Decaf]

I suggest you read the Biology and Brain sections of the wiki article on gender (also quoted in my above post). It appears to be an indisputable fact that there is at least some biological sex-related differences in psychology, brain function, and personality between male and female homo-sapiens.

Shame on you FusionKnight. Calling something indisputable is careless Everything is disputable given enough time for data collection (it used to be an indisputable fact that the Earth was the center of the solar system until someone disputed it).

What we the scientific community believes to be true is that the structure of the human brain differs somewhat depending on sex. You can't tie psychology and personality directly to that kind of genetic statement because we aren't certain that those things are caused by genetics. That being said, obviously brain function has a role in each, and should be easier to look at with regards to genetics.

What we need to determine is what hormones actually do to the brain rather than simply apply them to our traditional gender roles in the form of educated guesses. So we know that men have more testosterone in their system than women and that we believe the net effect that is important is increased aggressiveness. The psychological effects of estrogen appear to be predominantly physical, or defined as the opposite of having large amounts of testosterone.

So I can understand why an average increased aggressiveness in one sex would tend towards things like patriarchy, but the other two mentioned commonalities I believe have non-genetic causes. Romantic love and sexual jealousy are entirely too easily caused by a combination of cultural norms and evolutionary preference (romantic love between couples other than male and female do not lead to the continuation of the traits of those individuals and neither are males who are not angered by being cut out of developing progeny by competition).

So aggressiveness describes how one sex can achieve patriarchy, but I haven't heard an argument as to why that is an especially desirable trait to have in a leader. Maybe you can help me out with that.

Oh, and as a side note, I believe I understand your position, think it has merit, but disagree.

 

[FusionKnight]

Shame on you FusionKnight. Calling something indisputable is careless Everything is disputable given enough time for data collection (it used to be an indisputable fact that the Earth was the center of the solar system until someone disputed it).

That's why I said "appears"...

I suggest you read the Biology and Brain sections of the wiki article on gender (also quoted in my above post). It appears to be an indisputable fact that there is at least some biological sex-related differences in psychology, brain function, and personality between male and female homo-sapiens.

Oh, and as a side note, I believe I understand your position, think it has merit, but disagree.

A very enlightened position to have!

 

[kellimaier]

I was just thinking about gender issues...

but it wasn't so related to sacred places for men or women.
I suppose all people need sacred spaces and in a variety of flavors. Spaces for themselves alone. spaces for women, spaces, spaces.
If women want to complain they don't have enough spaces...then make some!
It is hard for me to really get too annoyed about not being allowed in man space...IF it is not a space that is for a certain topic or purpose. If I also have an interest in that topic then I want to have the option of being part of things.
But I'm not going to complain about not being allowed to hang with the guys...just for hanging. I'm an introvert...I would rather not hang with anyone.
I don't actually do a lot of girly things...but women can be kind of funny with only one or two males in a group of females.

 

[FusionKnight]

I don't actually do a lot of girly things...but women can be kind of funny with only one or two males in a group of females.

I don't know if this is what you're referring to, but I've noticed that if there are a few guys in a group of women, the women tend to vie for "ownership" of the guys.

In the reverse situation, a couple of women in a group of men, I've noticed that guys generally treat the women like guys.

Has anybody else noticed this difference?

 

[eudemonia]

That attitude may be damaging, but this perception of that attitude is damaging too. It doesn't leave room for middle ground.

Now, I'm gonna take a risk that Mai won't be mad at me for posting how she feels about this, but I think its an important unheard point of view.

Mai is more sexually aggressive than I am. I still have a stronger libido, but I am, by nature I suppose, not very sexually aggressive. When I try to be it feels uncomfortable and comes off as immature. So here's the dilemma. When I meet someone and don't immediately pursue (to a slight degree, because obviously flagrant is unattractive) sexual relations to some degree, women get the sense that I am not interested in them. I'm a man after all, right? One of the several reasons I never had a even a non-serious relationship until I was 22. That relationship started almost immediately after I read a book on body language, which now helps me compensate for my lack of aggression by broadcasting passive signals of interest (which is supposed to be the realm of women, not men, but works for me).

Now for Mai. She falls in love easily (INFJ) and is very, very skilled at progressing a relationship (if it can survive the progress). Its a time and emotion saving defense mechanism. She is also naturally sexually aggressive, but feels terribly insecure about it. Why? Because even if she truly likes someone, having sexual relations with them early in a relationship makes her a ****, doesn't it? It would raise my "coolness meter", but would cause derision to be heaped on her. Even if that derision wasn't public, the years of growing up having women who did that called nasty names would make her feel terribly. Images of <insert Nia's story> would prove to her that to obey her natural instincts would make her a less worth-while individual.

So in a sense I suppose I have feminine traits, and she has masculine traits, but neither of us can really be defined by those particular characteristics. I don't think masculine or feminine fit me particularly well and I don't think they fit her very well either. That's why stereotypes of people like us hurt.

Geez... I think out of all my posts that's probably number 10 that contains something personal about me... That's above my average

That was a powerful point, thanks for sharing it with us. One reason that I haven't said much in this thread is because I think I am quite conventional and probably inexperienced in this area. I met my husband when I was only 19 - we have been together for 30 years (this is really scary). So I am quite inexperienced really. I haven't had many partners, but I do know a bit about how to sustain a loving relationship!

Nevertheless, there was an important difference between your example and mine - love. Whatever happens in a loving trusting relationship is beautiful.

 

[kellimaier]

I don't know if this is what you're referring to, but I've noticed that if there are a few guys in a group of women, the women tend to vie for "ownership" of the guys.

In the reverse situation, a couple of women in a group of men, I've noticed that guys generally treat the women like guys.

Has anybody else noticed this difference?

Yeah FK...I have noticed that, as well as women sometimes trying to make a singular guy the target of a lot of teasing....some not so harmless and with an underlying theme of stripping away masculinity and dignity.

Unrelated really but it reminds me of a Mom i saw at a childrens hair cutting place who was sitting near my daughter. My daughter was watching some girl themed video while getting her hair cut and the little boy was peeking. His Mom then started teasing him about being feminine. I wanted to slap her and tell her to shut up. If my retile loving, monster truck fan of a daughter can be herself...so can a boy. But then he wasn't my son.
Also while talking about gender spaces...amazing a little girl gets quite a message sent to her when Hotwheels,com informs parents that their SON has joined.
I wrote back thanking them for informing me of my daughter's sex change...or a possible immaculate conception and birth of a son by me...and that whatever happened it must have slipped by me...cause as far as I knew...I only have two girls.

um..moving right along...


I don't know I can say men in a group have treated me like a guy...I have quite the girly and kind of deer caught in head lights appearance( in spite of my profile pic!) and men always seem to either try to fix me on some level, or treat me like I'm fragile or be overly gentlemanly.

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

That relationship started almost immediately after I read a book on body language, which now helps me compensate for my lack of aggression by broadcasting passive signals of interest (which is supposed to be the realm of women, not men, but works for me).

What book is that?
(I've been consistently confused about what my body is supposed to do while I talk to people, it'd be nice to read something.)

 

[Jordan~]

I'm very expressive with body language. I don't notice it, but damn, my head moves a lot. And when I'm a little out of it, my hands are all over the place. And when I'm angry, it's quite a show.

 

[Decaf]

What book is that?
(I've been consistently confused about what my body is supposed to do while I talk to people, it'd be nice to read something.)

Here it is.

Its not the best writing or pictures, but it's true. You can prove it to yourself fairly easily and it helps a lot. When you want to convince someone that you're paying attention, you move your body into a position that looks interested (body facing the other person, similar posture and hand position to the person speaking). If you're trying to let a woman know that you find her interesting, run your finger along the rim of whatever glass is available. Not in an annoying or constant way, but lazily like you don't notice you're doing it. The key is, other people do this instinctively but we don't. Why? Well, I'm working on that, but for me I think its because I move my body with intentional deliberation. Its why I enjoy martial arts and boxing. Planned grace is energizing, but unconscious body movements somehow get lost in translation. I have to replace them deliberately, the same way my deliberateness displaced them in the first place.

 

[Waterstiller]

That's a fascinating thought.. I just realized that movements that come naturally to others just.. don't.. for me. I've learned to mimic others, I guess, but I still feel so detached.

I started using my hands to speak when I learned ASL. My hands have been flopping about, unchecked, ever since.

 

[Chronomar]

I really don't like spending my time with certain *ahem* types of girls, they are very illogical and don't listen to me when I have a math/science joke. However, although being illogical and silly is a girl sterotype, there is an equal amount of big dumb guys in my school as there are silly girls. So really, the stupidity goes both ways...now, isn't that nice?

 

[FusionKnight]

That favorite movie thread got me thinking, and I re-watched Fight Club. I had forgotten what a brilliant movie that is. I dislike the crudeness, the language, and the sex, but the film has a lot of truth tucked in amongst the garbage.

For example:

Tyler Durden: If you could fight anyone, who would you fight?
Narrator: I'd fight my boss, prob'ly.
Tyler Durden: Really.
Narrator: Yeah, why, who would you fight?
Tyler Durden: I'd fight my dad.
Narrator: I don't know my dad. I mean, I know him, but... he left when I was like six years old. Married this other woman, had some other kids. He like did this every six years, he goes to a new city and starts a new family.
Tyler Durden: Fucker's setting up franchises.

Tyler Durden: My dad never went to college, so it was real important that I go.
Narrator: Sounds familiar.
Tyler Durden: So I graduate, I call him up long distance, I say "Dad, now what?" He says, "Get a job."
Narrator: Same here.
Tyler Durden: Now I'm 25, make my yearly call again. I say Dad, "Now what?" He says, "I don't know, get married."
Narrator: I can't get married, I'm a 30 year old boy.
Tyler Durden: We're a generation of men raised by women. I'm wondering if another woman is really the answer we need.

This is a big part of the reason I believe male-sanctums have value; not fight club, but a place to be mentored and taught by another man.

 

[Waterstiller]

That favorite movie thread got me thinking, and I re-watched Fight Club. I had forgotten what a brilliant movie that is. I dislike the crudeness, the language, and the sex, but the film has a lot of truth tucked in amongst the garbage.

For example:
This is a big part of the reason I believe male-sanctums have value; not fight club, but a place to be mentored and taught by another man.

There's a lot of truth still tucked in. Like, the quotes you mention are the narrator questioning his sexuality..

Perhaps another re-watching is in order to look for homosexual subtext? Palahniuk is gay, btw.

 

[Decaf]

There's a lot of truth still tucked in. Like, the quotes you mention are the narrator questioning his sexuality..

Perhaps another re-watching is in order to look for homosexual subtext? Palahniuk is gay, btw.

He's also stated in interviews that the reason he wrote in that dynamic was to distract from what was actually going on. He wanted people's mind going in the wrong direction from what he had planned. Notice he's saying that he's a 30 year old boy, he can't get married. That doesn't necessitate starting a romantic relationship with a man, it suggests to me that he desires something other than a romantic relationship to help him grow up.

Then again, we each read into the movie what we want to.

 

[FusionKnight]

Notice he's saying that he's a 30 year old boy, he can't get married. That doesn't necessitate starting a romantic relationship with a man, it suggests to me that he desires something other than a romantic relationship to help him grow up.

That's what I got out of it anyway. A woman can't solve his problem, because he's looking for masculinity. Also, what's he going to bring to a marriage? He's still a boy...

 

[Waterstiller]

I agree that we read into it however we want to. That's just my perception of it. :shrug:


Also, it might prove interesting to look at the ancient Greeks and Romans and what their intense homosociality correlated with.

 

[Agent Intellect]

a lot of the movie had those homosexual undertones. like after the first fight when they were sharing a beer and he said "we should do this again sometime". if you watched the commentary (and know the end of the movie) they talk about how its supposed to be the main character acheiving a level of self love, because he didn't have enough self love at the beginning because he saw himself as nothing, which was why he needed to buy a bunch of shit to complete himself and why he needed to go to support groups to feel loved in order to fall asleep.

 

[Cabbo Pearimo]

All girls I know are balls of illogical energy. No exceptions.



Not that that's a bad thing all the time...

 

[Decaf]

Would LoR, Nia, Fleur, Kidege, Fernando, Jennywocky, Grey Matters, Chimera or Sciencelady like to comment on that?

Maybe we should revisit this threads.

 

[Ermine]

Oh, why not? Nothing I haven't said before, but you can't assume all girls are like that simply because most are like that. It's like girls assuming that guys are stupid brutes. Not true. Generalizations are not totally correct. I have my nonsensical hyper playful moments, but I barely act like your stereotypical girl, though I am, as an INTP, a bit of a rarity. If it weren't for looks and sexual preferences, I'd blend in with the guys.

 

[Chronomar]

I don't think that women should "take over" men's sacred places, the only problem becomes when, because of a past history of male dominated culture, all the (in my opinion) good places (in jobs) are already male sacred places. For example, math and science have been male for a good chunk of history. However, does that mean that even though I really love math, I should just go find a group of girls to do female sacred places stuff, like make-up (I don't wear it). All I'm saying is, males can keep their sacred places as long as they can hold them fairly. If a girl is better than a guy in science, she gets the job. If the guy is better, he gets the job.

The other thing I note-- many people before have commented that guys don't normally take over female sacred places. Well, what if that's becuase they don't want to, because we have all the loser sacred places and almost none of the good ones (again, in my opinion, I'm sure being a stereotypical female is fun for some people, generally not for me). I would ask people who might think, "well, life sucks, deal with it" to consider the fact that if the situation was reversed, you would be mad too.

 

[Jennywocky]

Well, I think men and women can overlap and provide diversity and variety to each other. But at the same time, because there are specific needs/focuses for each gender (in general), it's good to have a safe place where things can be discussed.... especially if they are having issues with the other gender.

Conversations change drastically if there is an "intruder" in the house. Certain things can be discussed, unless the newcomer is vetted and accepted as a veritable member of the other community. (i.e., a girl who is seen as one of the guys, or a guy who women feel "safe" around and not see him as a guy on the make).

There are certain experiences too that can only be understood if you've gone through them, or have a particular mindset/background, and so people tend to bond over those experiences. It can be as deep as "pregnancy / having a new life growing inside you" or just "being a parent-to-be without being the pregnant one, so you feel more out of control of what happens." It can be as shallow as "going hunting together with the guys" or "going clothing shopping with your girlfriend." Certain experiences are more important to one gender than another, in general... although again there are individuals who can flip camps without stirring much fuss.

And it can be devastating to be a "camp switcher" who is still viewed as an outsider by the camp they want to join.

So yes, the wall exists even if I think men and women greatly benefit from being together in a mixed setting, as a matter of diversity. I just think it's a little unrealistic for a woman to open up about her disappointments/hurts with her husband's insensitivities (for example) when another guy is involved in the group, she will not feel as safe as she will in a group of all women. (Or, extreme example, a situation where a woman is raped -- she'll probably not feel safe around men, regardless.)

 

[Hammett]

All girls I know are balls of illogical energy. No exceptions.



Not that that's a bad thing all the time...

Holy crap! Both of them you say? How do you cope

 

[Cabbo Pearimo]

All girls I know personally.

 

[Decaf]

So how IS your mom?

 

[loveofreason]

All girls I know are balls of illogical energy. No exceptions.



Not that that's a bad thing all the time...

Yeah, we've put a warning out over the logical girls-only grapevine - steer clear of Cabbo.

Now you'll never get invited to our secret meetings.

 

[Artifice Orisit]

It's okay cabbo, Lor's just offended by the generalisation.

Like all girls she considers it of dire importance to be "Special".

I'm kidding, I'm kidding... you are special,
in that you-can-delete-poeple kind of way.