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Male sexuality: Double standards & social shame

Cherry Cola

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I can't see The causes of sex differences as being all social.. It needs an origin. And again it makes sense, in front of a computer or wherever you are that brain is still out in the trees and on the savanna. Society came about so quick our genes have not had time to adjust. Sexism and all that crap makes us adapt even slower, therefore the need to counteract it. That being said I mean all of sex, it should be understood like anything else of importance, making it consciously rather than instinctively controllable like we do do, requires more understanding of sex. Ppl r dumb.
 

Duxwing

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Definitely -- you need to put a gag on that Fe for a bit. (sorry, I don't mean that as rude, you just seem to be veering a bit here)

Hehehe! :)

Okay, I mean, think about why people do what we do. Basically in life we all start as pretty self-serving, even if well-intentioned. We develop strategies in order to get what we want, protect ourselves, provide ourselves with the essentials of life. We learn to take care of ourselves.

Sure.

Control strategies are VERY pervasive in anyone, and often we don't even realize we're using them. I mean, either we withdraw from a threat, or we crush a threat, or we seek to manipulate it in some way to defang it. Even compliance is a "control strategy" -- you ingratiate yourself in a way that will lessen the chance you're going to get hurt or deprived. Again these are very BASIC strategies that we often do instinctively without even consciously realizing it or wanting to manipulate others.

I think that you're really stretching the meaning of "control strategy": by that definition, helping someone in need is a "control strategy" because it controls the threat to them. Your logical definition doesn't match the connotation of manipulation.

So I don't really understand why you're having such a repulsion against the thought someone is using a control strategy. I'm pretty sure I could analyze posting styles and present you with various control stategies you (and others, including myself) use in our posts here. It just is what it is.

But there's a difference, here. What we're talking about is someone consciously using sex as a tool to extract useful work from someone else, not warding off an angry poster.

A woman in this situation is using a control strategy at worst to fleece a guy, at best to protect herself from being used and abused.

(Forgive me if I sound angry; I'm only curious.)

Don't you think that guys feel like they're being used and abused--examined like lab specimens, to put it bluntly--when the girls with whom they flirt go hot and cold by turns, 'testing' them for love? Don't you think that guys also don't want to be mistreated--that they have feelings? I see such a strategy as simply a coping mechanism for an insecurity regarding sex, for as far as I know, guys get by without it and would be regarded as cold-hearted fiends if they employed it.

That latter is not necessarily a bad thing.

Noble ends needn't be met ignobly.

-Duxwing
 

Jennywocky

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I think that you're really stretching the meaning of "control strategy": by that definition, helping someone in need is a "control strategy" because it controls the threat to them. Your logical definition doesn't match the connotation of manipulation.

I think I'm talking in terms of psychology. This is all pretty common jargon when you're doing psychoanalysis or spiritual counseling. These behaviors all have a purpose. We use them for a reason, and usually it's to satisfy very basic drives.

But there's a difference, here. What we're talking about is someone consciously using sex as a tool to extract useful work from someone else, not warding off an angry poster.

Noooo.... you're actually commenting on MY use of the phrase/term, so therefore it is very relevant for me to explain what I meant by it. Apparently you read it very differently than I meant it.


Don't you think that guys feel like they're being used and abused--examined like lab specimens, to put it bluntly--when the girls with whom they flirt go hot and cold by turns, 'testing' them for love?

If a woman is capriciously doing it to toy with a guy for her own satisfaction, then it's pretty terrible.

if a woman needs to know she can trust a guy and is not acting in an extreme manner, then it's totally acceptable -- it's part of life. Just like you would tell someone something personal but SMALL, to see what they'd do with it -- and if they prove trustworthy, then you can trust them with more the next time. it's naive to think that people are not using these strategies to legitimately test boundaries as part of self-care.

I feel like you are interpreting this discussion through a very narrow lens and not seeing all the dynamics that naturally occur between people of any gender and in any circumstance in life. You seem bent on just discussing the very boring, very obviously rude woman who is just "playing" with a guy. Who would disagree with that being a bad thing?

Don't you think that guys also don't want to be mistreated--that they have feelings?

Oh no, of course not. Why would I think you had feelings? How silly. I mean, you're a GUY. *cough*

Anyway, I've already explained what I meant and the intersection point between our perspectives, so I don't have much else to say, since you're twisting what I've meant at this point....
 

SpaceYeti

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But there's a difference, here. What we're talking about is someone consciously using sex as a tool to extract useful work from someone else

I actually have no problem with that at all, so long as it's not underhanded. I mean, if someone straight-up says "I'll have sex with you in exchange for (blank)." I'm cool with that. I see no difference with exchanging sex for work or money than any other task or labor. I only want all parties to be fully aware of, and willingly agree to, the exchange.
 

Hadoblado

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It's the implied but not actual sex bargaining that grinds my goat!
 

Wolf18

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This is a very interesting thread. There have been a lot of blokes on here explaining how this explains a lot and how hard it is for them to "channel" their sex drive (if that's the correct description), and I truly respect and agree with that.

However, for someone who has no interest in sex, it is very awkward to be approached by a man who clearly has sex on his mind. I want the men out here to understand that women (I think, in general,) do not say, "ooh, you're being creepy" because they think that they will be perceived as too keen themselves if they do not. It is also fact that, although the vast majority of men are not rapists, there are news stories and women do have to be cautious of men who seem too interested.

I respect that you have sexual needs, but that does not mean that it is fine to force yourselves on women (by flashing, or other means). I know that the vast majority of men do not do this, but please understand that our wariness is rational, and certainly not personal.

SW
 

SpaceYeti

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Being wholly uninterested in sex is something I cannot understand, as sex plays a fairly large part of my life. It's an obvious, consistent psychological need for me. Having zero interest in sex is something I cannot empathize with. However, I imagine it would be very irritating to lack such a thing in a world where everybody else does not. Is it similar to people approaching you with fliers for their church all the time?
 

Wolf18

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Being wholly uninterested in sex is something I cannot understand, as sex plays a fairly large part of my life. It's an obvious, consistent psychological need for me. Having zero interest in sex is something I cannot empathize with. However, I imagine it would be very irritating to lack such a thing in a world where everybody else does not. Is it similar to people approaching you with fliers for their church all the time?

Keep in mind that I am in my mid-teens, so there has not been a very long life without sex, and I may mature in my perception of sex as I get older. But my parents are considering sending me to a psychologist.

People don't really go around with church fliers where I live. The Christians are numerous, but relatively quiet. Not too many preachers.

But no, I don't think that church fliers are exactly what I am feeling, although that's an interesting analogy. It's not exactly an irritating feeling. I think that my "problem," if you will, is a weak Fe. Although I am prone to outbursts of excitement or anger, prolonged exposure to "deeper" emotions unnerves me. There's something about the idea of sex that forces me to detach.

SW
 

SpaceYeti

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Keep in mind that I am in my mid-teens, so there has not been a very long life without sex, and I may mature in my perception of sex as I get older. But my parents are considering sending me to a psychologist.

People don't really go around with church fliers where I live. The Christians are numerous, but relatively quiet. Not too many preachers.

But no, I don't think that church fliers are exactly what I am feeling, although that's an interesting analogy. It's not exactly an irritating feeling. I think that my "problem," if you will, is a weak Fe. Although I am prone to outbursts of excitement or anger, prolonged exposure to "deeper" emotions unnerves me. There's something about the idea of sex that forces me to detach.

SW
Well, sexual...ness is a very deep, basic, powerful feeling, so it could be that you're fooling yourself about not feeling it in order to keep your emotions in check and remain rational. It's also possible you simply haven't experienced it yet (another thing I can't empathize with, as I've had the feelings as far back as I can remember), due to sexual immaturity. By your age, though, I don't suspect that one. It could also be that you're legitimately asexual. It could be that you were somehow emotionally scared in some sexual way, and thus you're respressing your sexual urges.

Whatever the case may be, it's up to you to figure out. I'm curious, though; Do you see yourself ever being married or at least romantic with someone else, and why or why not?

Also, if this is too personal for you, I can totally drop it. I simply find it interesting because I don't understand it and am curious how it works... just like my radio controlled car I never put back together.

If it's that first thing, though, I definitely suggest allowing yourself to examine your own feelings. I suggest the same even if it's not that first thing. Just because it's unnatural and weird for our type to deal with our own feelings doesn't mean understanding our irrational desires is anything besides beneficial. I had sexual desires as far back as I can remember, sure, but I didn't really understand them until I was in my twenties. Ultimately, your feelings are not something to be feared and locked away, they're simply another fact to consider when making decisions.
 

scorpiomover

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We live in a blame culture, a culture that seeks to find someone, or some group, or some thing, to account for why things aren't already perfect.

"Oh, that man was asking me out. But I don't want to be asked out by HIM! I want to be asked out by his FRIEND! Oh, that guy is just hanging round with his friend, because I like his friend. He's trying to manipulate me. He's so CREEPY!"

"Oh, that woman called me a creep. She doesn't want to go out with me, because she's afraid that if she has sex with me, she'll be called a SLUT! It's her fault that I'm single."
 

cæsura

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There are proper venues to express interest in someone romantically: singles bars exist, dating sites exist, frat parties exist. It's never, in human history, been easier to get laid with the sort of person you prefer to get laid with than it is today. Making non-sexual situations sexual just feels imposing to many people - both women and men - and I don't see the point in raising it.

It's true that one can't help whether one's attracted to someone. (Well, okay, it's not true, but it's hardly a simple voluntary action, so close enough.) I have female friends to whom I'm very attracted, but somehow I've managed not to give off any creepy vibes (that I'm aware of.) I'm also ugly, poor, and underconfident, which according to the men who complain about this most should repulse them.

This doesn't mean I'm not sometimes creepy. I once left a social gathering shortly after a female attendee did, at night, and caught up with her on the street to chat for a bit. After we had parted ways I realized that I had creeped her out, and why. Oops! Sometimes this stuff happens by accident; and while it doesn't mean you're a horrible person, it does mean you should resolve to be more aware of that sort of thing. If a behavior is described by women (or men) as creepy, that is a very good reason not to do it!

I certainly agree that it can be tough for guys without many good models for healthy sexuality out there. Women are harmed more by this, but men could benefit selfishly from re-evaluating things as well.
 

r4ch3l

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I feel like the inverse can also be true -- women, especially in this post-feminist age, are pressured to say that they dislike being hit on and that it's disrepectful and objectifying. Yet we do all kinds of ridiculous things to look attractive. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. I've been shamed by other women for letting guys pick up the check and appreciating car doors being opened for me, etc. And now the poor guys out there live in a perpetual state of uncertainty when it comes to dating/romantic contexts because they get these mixed signals from women.

Why is it less creepy for a guy to hit on a chick in a bar or online vs. in the street/daily life? I wish more guys had the cajones to approach me when I'm out and about. I am told I am intimidating and fear that the good ones do not approach for the reasons listed above (i.e. being labeled as creepy, bad experiences in the past) and it's a damn shame. One of my favorite parts about traveling outside the US is that people are less afraid to talk to other people while on the street, whether in a flirtation context or otherwise. When did we all get so scared of one another and so oversensitive to being offensive? Or is this just an echo of something much older?

Favorite quote off another forum: "The only thing women like less than being a sex object is not being a sex object."
 

r4ch3l

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Well, sexual...ness is a very deep, basic, powerful feeling, so it could be that you're fooling yourself about not feeling it in order to keep your emotions in check and remain rational.

I turned off my sexual feelings when I was a teenager for this very reason and feel that it was only around age 22 when I had some experiences that made me understand sex for what it is and become open to it. Before that I just kind of went through the motions to become more mentally connected with others. Now I see that I can see it rationally and still let go and enjoy it for what it is. At present I consider myself a very sexual and sexually open person So...you never know.

I'm a little bit different though and my best sexual experiences and my theorizing/mentation still go hand in hand (into BDSM, can only have sex with people I have a mental connection with, and so on...)
 

Duxwing

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I feel like the inverse can also be true -- women, especially in this post-feminist age, are pressured to say that they dislike being hit on and that it's disrepectful and objectifying. Yet we do all kinds of ridiculous things to look attractive. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. I've been shamed by other women for letting guys pick up the check and appreciating car doors being opened for me, etc. And now the poor guys out there live in a perpetual state of uncertainty when it comes to dating/romantic contexts because they get these mixed signals from women.

When I walk through a door, I go first and hold it behind me: my aims are utilitarian, yet people--even girls-- thank me anyway. But you're right: guys do get mixed signals from women. In this day and age, if a comment about a girl's body is not the equivalent of poetry about her eyes, then it's considered to be vile, objectifying, even stalkerish. I'll gladly write that poetry, but so much else about girls can be beautiful: lips, teeth, hair, necks, shoulders, arms, hands-- everything that artists of all types have rendered on both genders for millennia. And yes, sex can be beautiful, too. It's a part of life, but all the grown-ups where I come from are so uptight about it, as if knowledge of the mere existence of their sexuality were an affront to society. I blame conservatism and religion.

Why is it less creepy for a guy to hit on a chick in a bar or online vs. in the street/daily life? I wish more guys had the cajones to approach me when I'm out and about. I am told I am intimidating and fear that the good ones do not approach for the reasons listed above (i.e. being labeled as creepy, bad experiences in the past) and it's a damn shame. One of my favorite parts about traveling outside the US is that people are less afraid to talk to other people while on the street, whether in a flirtation context or otherwise. When did we all get so scared of one another and so oversensitive to being offensive? Or is this just an echo of something much older?

Luckily, I face no such problem! :) I've flirted with more girls than I have fingers, and I've initiated most of it (though I also appreciate girls initiating; it fills me with a sense of pride :D). One explanation for the effect would be the everpresence of the fictional male 'creeper,' who sexually harasses women in real life, followed by stories of women being afraid of being sexually assaulted or even raped outright and arming themselves with martial arts training, T.A.S.E.R.'s, and even handguns to fend off males. Guys see the creeper, the stories, and the Smith and Wesson, and think, "I guess that women feel creeped out and scared when hit on in public" and subsequently stop doing so.

And don't forget that not every man is a male chauvinist: some men feel sympathetic toward or are even a part of the feminist movement, a few even going as far as to initiate men's studies to further eradicate stereotypes and cultural restrictions. For example, at my freshman semi-formal, a group of guys asked me if I wanted to dance with a girl who stood in their midst. She seemed reluctant. They tried to convince her, but I said something to the effect of, "If she doesn't want to, then I don't want to, either. Dancing is supposed fun for the both of us." One of the guys reached over, shook my hand, and said, "You're a real gentleman, Duxwing". In earlier decades, he might have called me gay or unmanly. So progress is being made! I hope.

Favorite quote off another forum: "The only thing women like less than being a sex object is not being a sex object."

Do you really think so? :confused:

-Duxwing
 

r4ch3l

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They tried to convince her, but I said something to the effect of, "If she doesn't want to, then I don't want to, either. Dancing is supposed fun for the both of us." One of the guys reached over, shook my hand, and said, "You're a real gentleman, Duxwing". In earlier decades, he might have called me gay or unmanly. So progress is being made! I hope.

See, I am actually very attracted to this kind of behavior and any guy that behaved this way would win a ton of points whether I was the reluctant girl or an observer watching this go down from the sidelines. It's not that I want or want to encourage guys to be aggressively drooling all over all women, all the time. It's that I feel like if more guys behaved with this baseline level of respect then both men AND women would not have such confusion or take issue with people showing interest in one another outside of clearly marked socially acceptable situations.

Do you really think so? :confused:

To be fair this was someone's signature on StripperWeb, a place where we all indirectly celebrate the fact that confusing gender roles, female objectification, and male frustration combine to give us a paycheck. :smoker:

BUT. The way I meant it in relation to this conversation is that I think as humans we all want to be seen as attractive, we actively cultivate and better ourselves to be seen as desirable -- and for women this tends to be on a more physical level, with men maybe more financially or socially.

Personally I have felt, at times, much frustration with my ENFP and ISTP exes being more interested in or excited about the physical/social status side of the relationship vs. the energy I put into trying to connect with them about ideas and whatnot. But then I realized that it's just the way it is. Most guys (and most girls!) aren't gonna be knocking down a girl's door to talk about pointless topology or schedule an evening to play Magic when they are into them physically as well. For me this is why I had such a strong connection with my INTJ ex: while he was almost bordering on asexual and that very much frustrated me it was nice to have someone who valued the mental connection more. But then, isn't that what friends are for?
 

Duxwing

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See, I am actually very attracted to this kind of behavior and any guy that behaved this way would win a ton of points whether I was the reluctant girl or an observer watching this go down from the sidelines. It's not that I want or want to encourage guys to be aggressively drooling all over all women, all the time. It's that I feel like if more guys behaved with this baseline level of respect then both men AND women would not have such confusion or take issue with people showing interest in one another outside of clearly marked socially acceptable situations.

Whew. You really had me worried there.

To be fair this was someone's signature on StripperWeb, a place where we all indirectly celebrate the fact that confusing gender roles, female objectification, and male frustration combine to give us a paycheck. :smoker:

An INTP stripper. Wow.

BUT. The way I meant it in relation to this conversation is that I think as humans we all want to be seen as attractive, we actively cultivate and better ourselves to be seen as desirable -- and for women this tends to be on a more physical level, with men maybe more financially or socially.

I do nothing of the kind, at least not consciously. Unconsciously, yes, and it can be painful to watch myself be ruled by these stupid hormones while I sit powerless to overcome this sort of 'glass barrier' that arises between my conscious will and my general action plan.

Personally I have felt, at times, much frustration with my ENFP and ISTP exes being more interested in or excited about the physical/social status side of the relationship vs. the energy I put into trying to connect with them about ideas and whatnot. But then I realized that it's just the way it is. Most guys (and most girls!) aren't gonna be knocking down a girl's door to talk about pointless topology or schedule an evening to play Magic when they are into them physically as well.

Do both! :) Any girl who can play monopoly and then 'play monopoly' (not necessarily in that order) is a keeper in my book.

For me this is why I had such a strong connection with my INTJ ex: while he was almost bordering on asexual and that very much frustrated me it was nice to have someone who valued the mental connection more. But then, isn't that what friends are for?

Awwww. How sweet! :) Friends are there for ideas, but so are lovers. The trick is finding a master debater who isn't a 'masterdebater'. :D ... I love double entendres.

-Duxwing
 

SpaceYeti

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Now I see that I can see it rationally and still let go and enjoy it for what it is. At present I consider myself a very sexual and sexually open person So...you never know.

I'm a little bit different though and my best sexual experiences and my theorizing/mentation still go hand in hand (into BDSM, can only have sex with people I have a mental connection with, and so on...)
I agree entirely, except I never turned my shit off.
 

r4ch3l

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Why would an INTP not be a stripper?

Strangely it was a great fit for me. Because it's the same charade night after night it is at once a closed system yet there is always new data coming in to Si out on, analyze, and then influence through Ne. Because I am a little icy, moody, and prone to overwhelm I definitely was not leading the pack in terms of overall income but I made great money and enjoyed having such an endlessly entertaining job where I didn't have to listen to anyone telling me what to do and could read or work on other things during downtime.

From an INTP description: "Pieces information together and draws conclusions (Ti) and then interacts with the environment to find additional possibilities (Ne)". Modular systems/processes are where I find my stride.
 

SpaceYeti

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Strangely it was a great fit for me. Because it's the same charade night after night it is at once a closed system yet there is always new data coming in to Si out on, analyze, and then influence through Ne. Because I am a little icy, moody, and prone to overwhelm I definitely was not leading the pack in terms of overall income but I made great money and enjoyed having such an endlessly entertaining job where I didn't have to listen to anyone telling me what to do and could read or work on other things during downtime.

From an INTP description: "Pieces information together and draws conclusions (Ti) and then interacts with the environment to find additional possibilities (Ne)". Modular systems/processes are where I find my stride.
Exactly. The only reason I wasn't a stripper is because I was too hairy and didn't want to get it all waxed off... or shave it all every other night. Too much effort. Of course, being a male stripper, I also wouldn't have as giant an income to make it all worth it.
 

SpaceYeti

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It seems like a very Se oriented activity, but evidently, it's not.

-Duxwing
If you're in it for the experience, sure. I don't presume an INTP would be so concerned about the experience itself, so much as the game it is and the money you get for it. Also, it's sexy, and sexy is cool.
 

Magus

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Why would an INTP not be a stripper?

I would have thought high levels of introversion would make one not want to pursue careers in areas so 'customer service' based.

Also general extreme lack of technicality/room for intellectual analysis of ANY sort. Seems more of a role for an extraverted feeling type or sensors who enjoy the vibe of clubs.

I can't stand bars and nightclubs and I wouldn't be the only one on this forum; the thought of working there, even behind the bar turns my stomach. To each his own I guess.
 

Duxwing

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If you're in it for the experience, sure. I don't presume an INTP would be so concerned about the experience itself, so much as the game it is and the money you get for it. Also, it's sexy, and sexy is cool.

Oh, yes, I suppose that deriving all sorts of patterns of human behavior could be fun. It would be quite the reward for dear old Fe.

-Duxwing
 

r4ch3l

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I would have thought high levels of introversion would make one not want to pursue careers in areas so 'customer service' based.

This is true. I was totally freaked out the first couple of months and bumbled my way through the awkward. But that was the thing -- I got the hang of it, I improved, and I turned it into a video game slash social development exercise.

Also general extreme lack of technicality/room for intellectual analysis of ANY sort.

When you don't understand social norms/cues or human motivation very well in the first place there can be a strong drive to analyze social situations.

Seems more of a role for an extraverted feeling type or sensors who enjoy the vibe of clubs.

That's the thing that most people do not get about stripping: it. is. a. job. I mean, do you always enjoy the "vibe" of your job? For me at the time (just finishing college) being in a place where I would not be overtly punished for fucking up at socializing or poor communication (office wench), having an environment where I could cultivate social skills through detached observation and then experimenting with interaction styles, and getting paid a lot more was a big draw.

Also I got lucky and worked at a club with no contact. I don't think I could have handled a contact club.

Also would like to point out that extroverted sensors are more likely to get sucked into the dark side of the job (partying with other strippers, falling into addiction to cope with such an intense environment catering to their social desires as well as being a job, etc.) whereas I was so wiped out from all the interaction that on my days off I went on hikes, read books, and worked on research projects. And bought stuff. :D
 

r4ch3l

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I can't stand bars and nightclubs and I wouldn't be the only one on this forum; the thought of working there, even behind the bar turns my stomach. To each his own I guess.

Being a bartender is a totally different game. You don't really have a lot of power over how much people drink due to biological constraints. You're expected to be cordial and listen to people dump their feelings all over you all night long with little fluctuation in the tip but a lot of room for fluctuation in terms of effort spent. The interactions are fairly monotonous and most people will be buying the same amount of drinks no matter how much you engage and empathize with them. I could never be a bartender or a waitress. Ever. But I have a lot of respect and empathy for them as it requires skills I simply do not and will never have.

I actually just googled "INTP stripper" right now and saw that there was a thread years back over at INTPcentral where a female INTP spoke of her experience. She noted something that is crucial to why she and I were successes -- more men than you think crave a loss of control and to be humiliated, submissive...I believe that INTP women can tend to be more inherently dominant than other women and that by assuming this role in a closed system they can be successful because they are a niche type serving a specific demographic...a thing that a lot of guys are looking for but can't admit or find out in the real world.
 

SpaceYeti

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I would have thought high levels of introversion would make one not want to pursue careers in areas so 'customer service' based.

Also general extreme lack of technicality/room for intellectual analysis of ANY sort. Seems more of a role for an extraverted feeling type or sensors who enjoy the vibe of clubs.

I can't stand bars and nightclubs and I wouldn't be the only one on this forum; the thought of working there, even behind the bar turns my stomach. To each his own I guess.

It's difficult for me to consider stripping "customer service". Customer service is irritating, and even where the two are alike it's more a single aspect of the job as opposed to the majority. I'd consider it more entertainment, showmanship, etc.

There's no lack of technicality at all. At least, no more than any other job where you dance on a stage. Further, the vibe is far different than that of an ordinary club. It's more personal, less crowded, with private booths and everything.

I don't mind bars too much, but night clubs are dumb. Strip clubs, at least the ones I've been to, are very dissimilar. And being the person on stage would give you a good opportunity to learn about people through interacting with them, and you can act as blunt or coy as you want, it doesn't matter. They'll still pay to see your junk.
 

r4ch3l

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and you can act as blunt or coy as you want, it doesn't matter. They'll still pay to see your junk.

Exactly: while maintaining control over the experiment you can be a lazy, detached, analytical dickwad and it's all good. Perfect (immature) INTP job.
 

walfin

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It's the luck of the draw; any guy whom a girl wants to reject is labelled a creep for want of a better reason. There may be any number of other reasons for the rejection but they might make her seem shallow: e.g. does not earn enough money, is not tall enough, etc.

(and I appreciate honesty but I would still think that somebody who rejected some guy for the above 2 reasons is shallow)

I suppose guys might have a word for girls whom they reject, if there were enough of those; girls do not make the first move in most societies.
 

Duxwing

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It's the luck of the draw; any guy whom a girl wants to reject is labelled a creep for want of a better reason. There may be any number of other reasons for the rejection but they might make her seem shallow: e.g. does not earn enough money, is not tall enough, etc.

(and I appreciate honesty but I would still think that somebody who rejected some guy for the above 2 reasons is shallow)

I suppose guys might have a word for girls whom they reject, if there were enough of those; girls do not make the first move in most societies.

Here are a few. We must strike back! :D

--Creepazoid
--Freakbag
--Psycho
--Nut
--Clingy
--Crazy
--PMS Express

-Duxwing
 

Beat Mango

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I eventually learnt to avoid the INTP "friendzone" by being heavily sexual. I use a lot of innuendo, particularly over text. Just blatant sexualising of conversation basically.

And it does work. Unfortunately I've overplayed the act a bit, because there's a lot of girls who now think I'm a cunt. It's better than being a creep, but still kinda sucks.
 

Beholder

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I eventually learnt to avoid the INTP "friendzone" by being heavily sexual. I use a lot of innuendo, particularly over text. Just blatant sexualising of conversation basically.

Please tell me more; how do I do this?
My problem is that lots of girls are attracted to me, but I think I just give off this asexual vibe, and I always feel like it would be inappropriate to do anything...
 

TimeAsylums

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Please tell me more; how do I do this?
My problem is that lots of girls are attracted to me, but I think I just give off this asexual vibe, and I always feel like it would be inappropriate to do anything...

ass grab
private parts stare
use of "babe/baby"
hand reach & hold
footsies
eye lock - blow kiss, seductive stare
use the words:
- "I like you"
- "wanna come over?"
etc.

aka that thing called "flirting"
 

Isley

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It's the implied but not actual sex bargaining that grinds my goat!


Well, in order to bargain, you need to have something of value. That's what the formality of courtship is: you express your desire, and what you have to compensate for your potential mate's cooperation. Consequently, what you have, don't have and how you are perceived is conflated into one composite score -- which either is high enough for a yes, or low enough for a no.


I find it suspicious that the author of that article has such an eminent fear of men. I'm not judging her, or even saying her fear is unfounded or irrational. I have no way of knowing her past: she could have been raped at some point, or maybe she embellished a bit as she wrote. I don't know. Still, I think the overall message was very strident.


I don't believe that the average, modern female fears being raped by men everywhere she goes. I also don't think all men run around masterminding their next scheme for their next rape victim. It's counterproductive. Sex and rape aren't the same. They have similar qualities, but the two desires are different: one is pleasure, the other is a psychological need to dominate. Why? Perhaps his mommy didn't love him enough, or maybe too much? It varies.


You know, this reminds me of Red Queen by Matt Ridley. In the book he states that men generally have more testosterone than females due to evolution selecting aggressive men (men who take risks) over their more retiring brethren. In that same way, you can apply that framework to this quagmire: men who are sexually repressed psychologically are being selected by evolution to not reproduce. I'd say that the group of men who were getting no booty 10,000 years ago have the same traits of their descendants today who receive no booty. Yet, Plenty of Fish, eHarmony, and anime conventions seem to do well in mitigating the deleterious effects of Mother Nature's favoritism.


Very Sincerely & Respectfully,

Isley
 

Duxwing

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:eek:
nvm... I could never do that...

Flirting isn't about specific social signalling actions leading to a predictable conclusion, so don't worry about being able to do one thing or another. Rather, flirting is an expression of initial attraction and affection. Think of her feelings and your feelings, then do what feels right. Afterward, analyze what happened and see how you can improve--even if you succeeded. In time, you will amass concepts and experience that you can work into a logical model that you can later compare with others. In other words: apply the scientific method and enjoy the experiments. :)

-Duxwing
 

TimeAsylums

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Damn NTs (including myself) want to analyze the hell out of it, just SF or S it aand you're good.
 

TimeAsylums

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http://personalitycafe.com/entp-art...erything-career-sex-everything-inbetween.html

Sex

NTs often have a curious amorality related to the generally accepted standards of sexual behaviors. The rules of society have little pressure for NTs, but their own idiosyncratic standards of conduct do. These usually have been carefully considered, and are followed with or without society’s approval. The sexual ethics of an NT are generally his own; they may or may not conform to the general morals or sexual behavior current in any given time.




Establishing a sexual or social relationship with an NT, especially introverted NTs, usually requires more investment of time and energy than with other types. This is especially in contrast with SPs, who are more ready to establish relationships. Often, types who are not NTs are unwilling to invest the time and energy required to relate to an NT. Even the extraverted NTs, although apparently easy to get to know, are actually fairly difficult to understand, for the personality structure of an NT is characteristically complex and, at times, even convoluted. Friends and mates of NTs repeatedly express surprise at a facet
of character they find in the NT, on that had not been apparent previously.

Female NTs, in particular, are apt to have their sexuality overlaid with intellectualism. Their preference for the logical can obscure expressions of their feelings, which may or may not be well developed. If not, the NT female may have difficulty with orgasmic responses unless her partner takes the time, makes the effort, and understands the necessity of making a sexual approach through mutual exploration of intellectual concepts. It is unlikely that an NT female will be sexually stimulated by a partner who is not her intellectual equal. Male NTs have a somewhat different expectation concerning intellectual equality.
The preference here is for equality at most and some – but not too much – inferiority at best. Obviously, this places the intellectually gifted female in a position of limited appropriate NT choices.

In any event, both female and male NTs can bring to a sexual relationship a willingness to explore possibilities of erotic arousal. If they have so marked it out as one of their areas of competency, NTs can be quite expert in sexual technology. They are very apt to possess skill in both the physical and psychological logistics involved in sexual intercourse, and to understand well the necessity for this relationship to be based on a wide variety of common interests outside the bedroom. Unlike the NF, who might consider it unromantic to study carefully scientific treatises on sexuality (e.g., Masters and Johnson, 1966), NTs would be likely to do so, finding it relatively easy to translate these objective findings into creative sexual, sensual behavior.
 

SpaceYeti

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Please tell me more; how do I do this?
My problem is that lots of girls are attracted to me, but I think I just give off this asexual vibe, and I always feel like it would be inappropriate to do anything...
It's never inappropriate to do something. Chicks want dudes who are proactive. If you aren't, you're just a friend. The friend-zone is a prison you put yourself into.
 

ObliviousGenius

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Wow interesting thread. I'm going to offer the perspective of a guy who loves women and is in no way asexual.:)

The thing that annoys me is the fact that I have to make so many "work arounds". How do I approach this woman in a setting where she is more likely to be guarded (the grocery store) and not come off as "creep". Or at the clubs and bars where I frequent, where they are more likely to be with friends who they will not part with ever (especially if there's only two of them). And the biggest problem of all: Social perception of women who are promiscuous.

I'd like to think that most women would like to have sex, however there are so many perceptions and pressures that stop them. "I don't wanna look like a slut", " I don't wanna look too easy" "I'm not going to make the first move". I'm fine with all of those reasons for not having sex, but when I find those work arounds for those perceptions I'm looked at as "over-aggressive" or just looking for sex. Don't get me wrong I want sex but it's the last step. The first step is understanding the girl.

The people here crying about "social manipulation" and whatnot don't understand women. Women appreciate nice-guy behavior and even find it attractive in some ways, but I guarantee you you won't be getting very far. Nice guys finish last and that's the absolute truth. Women want guys who are men. They want that guys that have the dgaf attitude. They're the center of they're own world and go by the beat of their own drum and they definitely aren't pushovers.

I've figured out how to get past the double standards and "social shame". I just make myself more appealing and have people flock to me instead of the other way around. That way I don't have to bear any "social shame". There's nothing controlling or manipulating about that. I am who I am and if people accept then great, if not the world has not ended.
 

TimeAsylums

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Wow interesting thread. I'm going to offer the perspective of a guy who loves women and is in no way asexual.:)

The thing that annoys me is the fact that I have to make so many "work arounds". How do I approach this woman in a setting where she is more likely to be guarded (the grocery store) and not come off as "creep". Or at the clubs and bars where I frequent, where they are more likely to be with friends who they will not part with ever (especially if there's only two of them). And the biggest problem of all: Social perception of women who are promiscuous.

I'd like to think that most women would like to have sex, however there are so many perceptions and pressures that stop them. "I don't wanna look like a slut", " I don't wanna look too easy" "I'm not going to make the first move". I'm fine with all of those reasons for not having sex, but when I find those work arounds for those perceptions I'm looked at as "over-aggressive" or just looking for sex. Don't get me wrong I want sex but it's the last step. The first step is understanding the girl.

The people here crying about "social manipulation" and whatnot don't understand women. Women appreciate nice-guy behavior and even find it attractive in some ways, but I guarantee you you won't be getting very far. Nice guys finish last and that's the absolute truth. Women want guys who are men. They want that guys that have the dgaf attitude. They're the center of they're own world and go by the beat of their own drum and they definitely aren't pushovers.

I've figured out how to get past the double standards and "social shame". I just make myself more appealing and have people flock to me instead of the other way around. That way I don't have to bear any "social shame". There's nothing controlling or manipulating about that. I am who I am and if people accept then great, if not the world has not ended.

Bro. Pretty much summed it up here, always(usually) end up going the aggressive route.
 

Duxwing

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Bro. Pretty much summed it up here, always(usually) end up going the aggressive route.

The route is not aggressive inasmuch as it is calm, confident, and assertive. Mixing in some understanding and respect as well increases its potency.

-Duxwing
 

TimeAsylums

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The route is not aggressive inasmuch as it is calm, confident, and assertive. Mixing in some understanding and respect as well increases its potency.

-Duxwing

yeah, but for a freaking NTP, it takes a lot of fucking "energy"
anything that takes too much of my "energy" is aggressive
lol
 

Duxwing

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yeah, but for a freaking NTP, it takes a lot of fucking "energy"
anything that takes too much of my "energy" is aggressive
lol

You have quite a bit more energy that you think; your Ne and Fe are both a slot above mine.

-Duxwing
 

TimeAsylums

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You have quite a bit more energy that you think; your Ne and Fe are both a slot above mine.

-Duxwing

hahah hence the whole Extravert side to it, but still :/ The S and F parts of society drain a lot lol.
 

Duxwing

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hahah hence the whole Extravert side to it, but still :/ The S and F parts of society drain a lot lol.

Then focus on being witty and clever via your Ne instead. :)

-Duxwing
 
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