• OK, it's on.
  • Please note that many, many Email Addresses used for spam, are not accepted at registration. Select a respectable Free email.
  • Done now. Domine miserere nobis.

Leapfrogging functions?

blarg

Muhahahaha. Ha. Ha.
Local time
Today 12:17 PM
Joined
Jul 13, 2011
Messages
99
---
Location
Right behind you
Primary functions are supposed to develop at around age 5, and I remember at that time that I was very Ne-ish, making many "strange" connections and jumping from idea to idea. But once my Ti started developing, it seems to have overtaken Ne, thus changing me from an ENXP to an INTP and making me more introverted, objectively detached, and analytical. Is this possible, or am I wrong about the functions?
 

SkyWalker

observing y'all from my UFO. inevitably coming dow
Local time
Today 6:17 PM
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Messages
986
---
There could also be periods later in life where you give more priority to a certain function for a while, but it usually does not happen since humans like to stay addicted to their normal function ordering.

You can use at least your first 4 functions at will, but you tend to keep using your strongest one. It's probably also because the other 3 (of the first 4) are usually not well trained (especially the last one).

The functions are not that fixed that you get them at birth and that's it, it''s not like that, you can train them. I don't know if you can do it with all 8, but you can at least train 4.

A strong function and a weak function is like having a strong arm and a weak arm. And all of a sudden you have to fight someone in an armfight. Which arm do you use? You might lose if you use your weak arm. So you keep using (and thus training) the strong arm and the weak arm atrophies even more by neglect.
But if you had 2 strongs arms, you would be much stronger in total.
 

PhoenixofVindemiatrix

Active Member
Local time
Today 11:17 AM
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
118
---
Location
Minnesota
I think that would be possible. At such a young age you still had not figured out your order of preference for the functions. An ENXP -> INTP change would not be so drastic, as your two strongest functions would remain constant.
 

SkyWalker

observing y'all from my UFO. inevitably coming dow
Local time
Today 6:17 PM
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Messages
986
---
Jung, the inventor of the functions, said it was possible to develop at least the first few functions and even up to the level of becoming a new primary function. So you could switch type, to types close to yours.

Not that I like to believe in authority, but I trust that Jung was quite an expert on this matter.
 

blarg

Muhahahaha. Ha. Ha.
Local time
Today 12:17 PM
Joined
Jul 13, 2011
Messages
99
---
Location
Right behind you
Okay, so it is quite possible for type to change like this, and for the development of functions to be influenced relatively easily. I would have to say, I have my INTP moments and my ENTP moments (though more often the former), and my cognition feels fundamentally the same during both modes.
 

SkyWalker

observing y'all from my UFO. inevitably coming dow
Local time
Today 6:17 PM
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Messages
986
---
That is quite possible. You are alternating between functions all the time. You can't only live off Ti and Ne, you use the other functions as well, just less often.
The function ordering of MBTI is like ordering functions by usage time per average day

If you change your average usage time then you change type.

Jung said this: You can't use all functions at the same time, but you can alternate through all of them over time.
 

Zionoxis

Active Member
Local time
Today 12:17 PM
Joined
Jan 30, 2011
Messages
437
---
Location
USA
What function was responsible for finding the original/fastest/easiest way to do something? At a young age, I revolved around it constantly until I slowly became introverted later on. I was still creative, but my obsession with finding the BEST way to do something was always...interesting. Ironically, I was not a perfectionist as I saw no point in it.. I still do not.
 

blarg

Muhahahaha. Ha. Ha.
Local time
Today 12:17 PM
Joined
Jul 13, 2011
Messages
99
---
Location
Right behind you
Actually, after thinking about it for a while, I'm not sure whether my original function was Ni or Ne, but I know it's N. I've considered the possibility of being a really unusual/obsessively thinking INTJ (I do have the death stare and I strategize very often), but I've dismissed it due to my definite use of Ti. I sometimes "unleash" my brain and think using pure abstraction that can be difficult to translate, but it's not very consistent and I must focus inward to do it. I use my logic/pattern-thinking with Ti and Ne a lot more often nowadays. It has served me well.

What function was responsible for finding the original/fastest/easiest way to do something? At a young age, I revolved around it constantly until I slowly became introverted later on. I was still creative, but my obsession with finding the BEST way to do something was always...interesting. Ironically, I was not a perfectionist as I saw no point in it.. I still do not.

It could be one of several functions. Ni would be good for planning and envisioning a pathway, but a combination of Ne and Ti to see possibilities and narrow them down would be another way. Te to logically organize your actions for efficiency works too.
 

Artsu Tharaz

The Lamb
Local time
Tomorrow 4:17 AM
Joined
Dec 12, 2010
Messages
3,134
---
What function was responsible for finding the original/fastest/easiest way to do something? At a young age, I revolved around it constantly until I slowly became introverted later on. I was still creative, but my obsession with finding the BEST way to do something was always...interesting. Ironically, I was not a perfectionist as I saw no point in it.. I still do not.

So you wanted to find the best way, though without there really being an outward, achievement based component to it?

I guess you could say you were doing a systematic avoidance of tasks you saw as requiring unnecessary expenditure of your (or generalised) resources?
 

Aramea

Active Member
Local time
Today 12:17 PM
Joined
Feb 24, 2011
Messages
181
---
I think that INTPs and ENTPs can mimic each other at times since they have all the same functions just in a different order but I am skeptical that a permanent change could be made. Over time I have become much more outward facing than I was when I was younger, but Ti still rules the roost. I love efficiency and creativity but find that once something is figured out I often don't see the need to DO it. Ti seems to be the party pooper function.
 

SkyWalker

observing y'all from my UFO. inevitably coming dow
Local time
Today 6:17 PM
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Messages
986
---
So you wanted to find the best way, though without there really being an outward, achievement based component to it?

I guess you could say you were doing a systematic avoidance of tasks you saw as requiring unnecessary expenditure of your (or generalised) resources?

My view on Ti lives!

I like it that you accepted it! I value your opinion Artsu!
 

SkyWalker

observing y'all from my UFO. inevitably coming dow
Local time
Today 6:17 PM
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Messages
986
---
I think that INTPs and ENTPs can mimic each other at times since they have all the same functions just in a different order but I am skeptical that a permanent change could be made.

It's probably possible but really hard to change. It probably has the same success rate as a 30 year long addicted heroin junkie that wants to stop using heroin.
Your primary function is like a heroin addiction (e.g. a strong addiction that cannot be kicked off easily).


Also changing your function ordering is like changing your operating system from Windows to Mac: then all your applications (e.g. your investment) dont work anymore and have to be replaced by new ones (e.g. you have to start from scratch). Just switching Ne and Ti might be a bit easier, maybe that's the same operating system, kind of.
 

Logic

Banned
Local time
Today 9:17 AM
Joined
May 22, 2010
Messages
174
---
Location
New Westminster, Canada
Your brain while in development isn't capable of just picking and choosing which functions it's going to use in whatever priority. That's just not how it works. Your type is something that's established by your genes (though further research is required) and the body uses that blueprint to create your brain and how it'll work. No part of the body is ever allowed to just set itself to a certain value at random, everything about us is calculated to be the way it is and nothing less or more than that.

You cannot change your type, it's impossible and I feel like a broken record for having to repeat myself over and over on this one point. No matter how hard you try to and no matter how much you develop any of your lower order functions, it's impossible to change to a type that has one of those functions as its primary.
 

blarg

Muhahahaha. Ha. Ha.
Local time
Today 12:17 PM
Joined
Jul 13, 2011
Messages
99
---
Location
Right behind you
Your brain while in development isn't capable of just picking and choosing which functions it's going to use in whatever priority. That's just not how it works. Your type is something that's established by your genes (though further research is required) and the body uses that blueprint to create your brain and how it'll work. No part of the body is ever allowed to just set itself to a certain value at random, everything about us is calculated to be the way it is and nothing less or more than that.

You cannot change your type, it's impossible and I feel like a broken record for having to repeat myself over and over on this one point. No matter how hard you try to and no matter how much you develop any of your lower order functions, it's impossible to change to a type that has one of those functions as its primary.

Well, I'm sure that whatever semi-type that you have when you're super-young is changeable, since it hasn't been established. Of course, your type is set in stone after the second function develops (and thus paves way for the rest of the functions), but if the primary isn't heavily used when it's starting to appear and/or external factors are forcing the development of other functions, then it's not going to be way above the secondary. If this happens early enough (where MBTI is irrelevant because it can't be measured), then some function juggling can occur.
 

TruthSeeker

Active Member
Local time
Today 12:17 PM
Joined
Aug 19, 2010
Messages
110
---
Location
The Great White North
Well, I'm sure that whatever semi-type that you have when you're super-young is changeable, since it hasn't been established. Of course, your type is set in stone after the second function develops

Was it not before? Just because your "second function" is not well developed does not mean it doesn't exist! Surely you aren't suggesting that lead perceives were incapable of making decisions until they turned twelve? When you develop them they are more noticeable, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist before!
 

alrai

Banned
Local time
Today 5:17 PM
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Messages
124
---
Location
Leicester
Was it not before? Just because your "second function" is not well developed does not mean it doesn't exist! Surely you aren't suggesting that lead perceives were incapable of making decisions until they turned twelve? When you develop them they are more noticeable, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist before!

Thanks for the compliment, i heard Fe doesn't develop until middle age in most INTP's , so good on me.
 

blarg

Muhahahaha. Ha. Ha.
Local time
Today 12:17 PM
Joined
Jul 13, 2011
Messages
99
---
Location
Right behind you
Was it not before? Just because your "second function" is not well developed does not mean it doesn't exist! Surely you aren't suggesting that lead perceives were incapable of making decisions until they turned twelve? When you develop them they are more noticeable, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist before!

I'm saying that there's no obvious preference for second functions until they develop. Anyone is capable of using any function (they just don't necessarily like to), which is why P-doms can still judge. When their second functions haven't developed, their psyche only has one slot available, which is filled by the lead function. The other functions can be used with equal amount of ease. A 7-year-old who will eventually become an INTJ would have Ni for sure but it's most likely unclear whether they will later use Fe or Te. Their psyche can go either way, depending on the circumstances. There most likely already is a slight imbalance, but it can shift around pretty easily.

Alternating exclamation marks and question marks...an interesting choice of punctuation.
 

Logic

Banned
Local time
Today 9:17 AM
Joined
May 22, 2010
Messages
174
---
Location
New Westminster, Canada
Well, I'm sure that whatever semi-type that you have when you're super-young is changeable, since it hasn't been established. Of course, your type is set in stone after the second function develops (and thus paves way for the rest of the functions), but if the primary isn't heavily used when it's starting to appear and/or external factors are forcing the development of other functions, then it's not going to be way above the secondary. If this happens early enough (where MBTI is irrelevant because it can't be measured), then some function juggling can occur.

This is where your dead wrong Blarg. The body doesn't pick and choose what's going to work and there's never at any point it can go "either way." If you're an INTJ then you are so because that's what you were designed to be from the moment of your conception. The psyche doesn't pick some random function to make it the primary and then your mind can then choose the auxiliary at random. That's like saying that your hand can either grow 5-6 fingers and all that's needed is to wait for when the hand or mind or genes randomly selects which choice it favors more.

I'm saying that there's no obvious preference for second functions until they develop. Anyone is capable of using any function (they just don't necessarily like to), which is why P-doms can still judge. When their second functions haven't developed, their psyche only has one slot available, which is filled by the lead function. The other functions can be used with equal amount of ease. A 7-year-old who will eventually become an INTJ would have Ni for sure but it's most likely unclear whether they will later use Fe or Te. Their psyche can go either way, depending on the circumstances. There most likely already is a slight imbalance, but it can shift around pretty easily.

Alternating exclamation marks and question marks...an interesting choice of punctuation.

Okay think of it this way. You're born with all of your functions but because you're young they aren't developed yet because they haven't been used adequately. All the functions are still being used like they would normally but there hasn't been any real solid developing of those functions. You're also born with hands and feet and the like but they also haven't been developed fully either yet, so does that mean they will develop differently as a result? Of course not.

The structure of the psyche is always the way it is meant to be. If you're a INTJ than you have all the powers that the INTJ has at conception. As the individual becomes more aware and more accustomed to using their functions they will steadily get better at them. However that doesn't change the fact that they are born an INTJ, they have always been that type and always will be.

Every aspect of life (not just the human body/brain) is completely predetermined. There's never a point where the psyche is in a state of "oh well it can go this way or the other way." If you study Genes and Natural Selection then you wouldn't be claiming the sort of stuff you are right now. How do you know that the psyche works the way you say it does? You don't because you probably just came to that understanding because it sounded the most logical. Well, I'm here to tell you that it isn't logical nor is it the truth.
 

SkyWalker

observing y'all from my UFO. inevitably coming dow
Local time
Today 6:17 PM
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Messages
986
---
*blablabla* personality type is 100% genetic *blablabla*

Personality type is NOT 100% genetic

I have solid proof:
- There are many gentically identical (monozygotic) twins with a TOTALLY different personality type compared to their other twin.

I am not saying there is NO genetic factor. There is most probably a genetic factor, favoring certain types, but it is NOT 100% determined by genes alone.

Thus the environment during development is also a factor. (And/or pure randomness might also be a factor?)

Up to what age that development goes, nobody knows, it might also be different for everyone, although there probably is an average
 

Adymus

Banned
Local time
Today 9:17 AM
Joined
Sep 13, 2009
Messages
2,180
---
Location
Anaheim, CA
Personality type is NOT 100% genetic

I have solid proof:
- There are many gentically identical (monozygotic) twins with a TOTALLY different personality type compared to their other twin.

I am not saying there is NO genetic factor. There is most probably a genetic factor, favoring certain types, but it is NOT 100% determined by genes alone.

Thus the environment during development is also a factor. (And/or pure randomness might also be a factor?)
No, you have the exact opposite of solid proof.

A test executed with a personality typology system would be like trying to acquire a person's blood type by asking them "Hey, what do you think your blood type is?" A person's oppinion of their cognitive configuration is not evidence in favor of what it actually is.

This case technically remains untested, and I guarantee you, it won't be the MBTIers that solve it.
 

SkyWalker

observing y'all from my UFO. inevitably coming dow
Local time
Today 6:17 PM
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Messages
986
---
No, you have the exact opposite of solid proof.

A test executed with a personality typology system would be like trying to acquire a person's blood type by asking them "Hey, what do you think your blood type is?" A person's oppinion of their cognitive configuration is not evidence in favor of what it actually is.

This case technically remains untested, and I guarantee you, it won't be the MBTIers that solve it.

Your counter-argument is skewed: Your are implying something I have not said.

I am saying twins can be DIFFERENT types, I have never said that their type can be EXACTLY identified, just that the DIFFERENCE can be noted.

Visit a few twins and you will see for yourself that quite often (not always) they are DIFFERENT in personality. Whatever their type might be exactly is irrelevant. Their difference in personality can be clearly spotted.
I actually know twins that are clearly DIFFERENT. Dont believe me? Shall I send them to you?? Want to pay for their ticket? It would be a nice one to test in your system?
Then you would have to either update your theory or claim that both the twins are the same type (while all acquaintances of the twins will claim otherwise).

Nobody can make 100% solid type identifications, until we can identify by brain scan. Up to that time I cannot not, and neither can you.
 

Cegorach

Well-Known Member
Local time
Today 10:17 AM
Joined
Feb 7, 2009
Messages
766
---
Every aspect of life (not just the human body/brain) is completely predetermined. There's never a point where the psyche is in a state of "oh well it can go this way or the other way." If you study Genes and Natural Selection then you wouldn't be claiming the sort of stuff you are right now. How do you know that the psyche works the way you say it does? You don't because you probably just came to that understanding because it sounded the most logical. Well, I'm here to tell you that it isn't logical nor is it the truth.

There's no need to pretend you have any knowledge beyond the Pod'lair theory, especially when you have clearly not studied what you're claiming.

I've argued with Pod'lair in the past that the functions are not literally positioned in specific "directions" of the brain and they ended up changing that pretty quickly afterwards when they realized it was impossible.
I'm not against the theory, but there are a lot of over-generalizations and baseless assertions being thrown around and I find it very disappointing that despite being far from an expert on the topic of psychology I am able to easily provide proof to dismiss some of these claims.

I would have thought Neuroplasticity was particularly well known, in fact.


- - - - -​


Personally I do believe you're correct in saying that type is genetically predetermined, but unless you're going to give this thread some empirical evidence in regards to your claim then this will remain a discussion, not a platform by which you can go on an ego trip.

I'm very serious about this.
 

Adymus

Banned
Local time
Today 9:17 AM
Joined
Sep 13, 2009
Messages
2,180
---
Location
Anaheim, CA
Your counter-argument is skewed: Your are implying something I have not said.

I am saying twins can be DIFFERENT types, I have never said that their type can be EXACTLY identified, just that the DIFFERENCE can be noted.

Uh huh, and if we follow that reasoning then that means we need an accurate and consistent way to identify a person's Cognitive Configuration before you can even begin to approach that experiment, which you do not have.
If you have no way to accurately identify Cognitive configuration with any certainty, then you have no evidence behind your claim what-so-ever.

I actually know twins that are clearly DIFFERENT.
And I actually know that you do not possess the ability to Identify a person's Cognitive Configuration, regardless of what you believe is "clear."

Nobody can make 100% solid type identifications, until we can identify by brain scan. Up to that time I cannot not, and neither can you.
No, actually we can without a need for a Brain scan, but that is just us over at Pod'Lair.
 

SkyWalker

observing y'all from my UFO. inevitably coming dow
Local time
Today 6:17 PM
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Messages
986
---
No, actually we can without a need for a Brain scan, but that is just us over at Pod'Lair.

So humble of you guys! That really makes sense as great proof!
 

Logic

Banned
Local time
Today 9:17 AM
Joined
May 22, 2010
Messages
174
---
Location
New Westminster, Canada
@Cegorach

I could've used better wording to get my ideas across, I should know better than to assume the intpf will understand me like my colleagues.

You did misunderstand me a bit though. Neuroplasticity has to do with the brain being capable of adapting to the environment, that's perfectly reasonable. The point I'm trying to make is that the brain was designed to be that adaptable in the first place by nature. We have muscles that grow and change but thats also within the constraints of whats actually possible. Your brain isn't something that can change on such a fundamental level like your body turning from warm blooded to cold blooded.

The positioning of the Cognitive Powers within the psyche isn't actually wrong. There's definitely something that we are noticing that has to do with the Right and Left sides of the Psyche that can be observed in Movements of the eyes and other gestures that consistently correlate to Left and Right, perhaps that indicates a physical brain location, and perhaps not, but in any case it is still a consistent hemispherical correlation that still must be taken into consideration.
 

Adymus

Banned
Local time
Today 9:17 AM
Joined
Sep 13, 2009
Messages
2,180
---
Location
Anaheim, CA
So humble of you guys! That really makes sense as great proof!
That wasn't meant to be proof, I am just stating a fact.

Humble?

What, I am not supposed to tell you that we have the capacity to Read a person's Cognitive Configuration for the sake of Humility? I am supposed to sit here and smile and nod as you make ignorant claims about what we can and can't do, out of politeness?

Screw that.
 

Artsu Tharaz

The Lamb
Local time
Tomorrow 4:17 AM
Joined
Dec 12, 2010
Messages
3,134
---
That wasn't meant to be proof, I am just stating a fact.

Humble?

What, I am not supposed to tell you that we have the capacity to Read a person's Cognitive Configuration for the sake of Humility? I am supposed to sit here and smile and nod as you make ignorant claims about what we can and can't do, out of politeness?

Screw that.

herp a derp?

de durrr de durrr?
 

Artsu Tharaz

The Lamb
Local time
Tomorrow 4:17 AM
Joined
Dec 12, 2010
Messages
3,134
---
Fuckkkk I so want Adymus and SkyWalker to go at it.

Street rulez, nigga. Adymus gon' get owwwwned.
 

SkyWalker

observing y'all from my UFO. inevitably coming dow
Local time
Today 6:17 PM
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Messages
986
---
That wasn't meant to be proof, I am just stating a fact.

aha??? so your stated fact is not proof?

you made our readers confused now ;)
 

kibou

Member
Local time
Today 12:17 PM
Joined
Aug 25, 2010
Messages
93
---
Some of Logic's arguments here aren't really PL theory per se, PL doesn't really draw conclusions on neuroscience stuff, there are implications you can draw from what PL theory has the lens to see but it's not really our interest right now. We know for sure what we know and can see, the greater implications will have to be seen with more funding for research. What we know is there is an innate configuration which the basic structure doesn't change that physiologically animates the body and face in a particular way.
 

blarg

Muhahahaha. Ha. Ha.
Local time
Today 12:17 PM
Joined
Jul 13, 2011
Messages
99
---
Location
Right behind you
This is where your dead wrong Blarg. The body doesn't pick and choose what's going to work and there's never at any point it can go "either way." If you're an INTJ then you are so because that's what you were designed to be from the moment of your conception. The psyche doesn't pick some random function to make it the primary and then your mind can then choose the auxiliary at random. That's like saying that your hand can either grow 5-6 fingers and all that's needed is to wait for when the hand or mind or genes randomly selects which choice it favors more.



Okay think of it this way. You're born with all of your functions but because you're young they aren't developed yet because they haven't been used adequately. All the functions are still being used like they would normally but there hasn't been any real solid developing of those functions. You're also born with hands and feet and the like but they also haven't been developed fully either yet, so does that mean they will develop differently as a result? Of course not.

The structure of the psyche is always the way it is meant to be. If you're a INTJ than you have all the powers that the INTJ has at conception. As the individual becomes more aware and more accustomed to using their functions they will steadily get better at them. However that doesn't change the fact that they are born an INTJ, they have always been that type and always will be.

Every aspect of life (not just the human body/brain) is completely predetermined. There's never a point where the psyche is in a state of "oh well it can go this way or the other way." If you study Genes and Natural Selection then you wouldn't be claiming the sort of stuff you are right now. How do you know that the psyche works the way you say it does? You don't because you probably just came to that understanding because it sounded the most logical. Well, I'm here to tell you that it isn't logical nor is it the truth.

How is personality predetermined? I just don't get the sense in that argument. Pardon me if there's some deep insightful piece of knowledge, that I haven't grasped, but being born with your type seems just as valid as predestination. And don't try to make assumptions about what I know about genes and natural selection, and anyways, I see that material as irrelevant (till you brought it up, of course). You're born with a genetically determined physical synaptic structure, but the "content" of your conscious brain waves doesn't just appear. People with autism aren't born with their disorders, which practically proves that early personality is very malleable and depending on "nurture" instead of "nature".

I've got a question: How do you know that the psyche works the way you say it does? As far as the Jungian and MBTI theory were concerned, the psyche doesn't "work" on any physical level. It's an abstract entity that has nothing to do with genetics. If you want to add physical factors in to the mix, then QED in the previous paragraph.

The functions that develop are dependent on external factors, and then internal reaction to those stimuli (except maybe Ni, but I don't know enough about that function to say for sure), which supports my viewpoint. Due to the lack of empirical evidence, I highly doubt that there's a way of knowing, beyond some tentative idea, whether personality is predetermined, but based on what I've said above, I'm going to go my route.
 

blarg

Muhahahaha. Ha. Ha.
Local time
Today 12:17 PM
Joined
Jul 13, 2011
Messages
99
---
Location
Right behind you
What is this Pod'Lair stuff that's floating around? Seems damn informative. I'm going on an interwebz trip to figure this out...
 

Artsu Tharaz

The Lamb
Local time
Tomorrow 4:17 AM
Joined
Dec 12, 2010
Messages
3,134
---
Pod'lair is a very specific theory, and that means you can't theorise on it unless you're them. That means to join, you have to be a parrot, which is really no fun. I prefer the uncertainty in the game. They're trying to make it easier to play, but also more limiting.
 

Adymus

Banned
Local time
Today 9:17 AM
Joined
Sep 13, 2009
Messages
2,180
---
Location
Anaheim, CA
Pod'lair is a very specific theory, and that means you can't theorise on it unless you're them. That means to join, you have to be a parrot, which is really no fun. I prefer the uncertainty in the game. They're trying to make it easier to play, but also more limiting.
Still haven't weened yourself off of the directionless masturbatory theorizing of the Typology models, have you?

This is like saying "Baawww! They are only letting guitar players teach people how to play the guitar!" You can theorize all you want about Pod'Lair when you can read people, but if you don't even know what it is that we are even looking at in the first place then your theories are completely baseless and irrelevant. You can't expect be a Guru of something if you can't even do or see what it is that you are supposed to be a Guru of, get used to that Artsu, because Typology is the only venue where you can know nothing, and still look like a Know-it-all.*


*Okay that's not true, you can get away with that in Philosophy and every other soft science that has no base in physical reality.
 

Artsu Tharaz

The Lamb
Local time
Tomorrow 4:17 AM
Joined
Dec 12, 2010
Messages
3,134
---
Okay that's not true, you can get away with that in Philosophy and every other soft science that has no base in physical reality.
Maths, too*. Theorising is allowed to be abstract. (and lol @ "Guru")

* or is pure maths, as distinct from real world application, a fruitless endeavour in your eyes?
 

kibou

Member
Local time
Today 12:17 PM
Joined
Aug 25, 2010
Messages
93
---
@blarg Personality isn't predetermined, cognitive configuration is. The manifestation of configuration can change over a lifetime, but you're still working with the same body so to speak. Like how you can have a thin frame, but can change what surrounds it from muscle to fat. Or how you can be really muscular or really thin, but you are oriented toward lean muscle. Someone muscular with a thin frame looks different from someone skinny with a thin frame, but they both have the same frame so can switch to each other's looks over their lifetime if they change their lifestyle habits. Of course, if someone gets really overweight, then loses a lot of weight, their skin might be stretched more than the person who never went through this, that's semi-permanent things that happen that's harder to reverse but it's not something every person with the thin frame manifests, that's like development.

MBTI "types" are looking more at the surface of people which we often refer to as "personality", cognitive configuration is something inherent and deeper. That's why people can feel their "personality" changes but they never changed their configuration, just how they use it and how they manifest it. But since the people with the same configuration are using the same system, there are remarkable similarities in HOW they go about manifesting a certain personality.
 

blarg

Muhahahaha. Ha. Ha.
Local time
Today 12:17 PM
Joined
Jul 13, 2011
Messages
99
---
Location
Right behind you
Kibou, type is simply the external manifestation of cognitive configuration, nothing more. For example, it's impossible to be an extrovert when you're a lead introvert. Of course, you can act like one, but contrary to what you said, the actual personality changes just as much as the functions because it's the functions that define a personality, and that's the whole idea of typology. Also, as I've said before, currently we don't know enough to determine whether cognitive configuration is predetermined, but the fact that "brainwave content" is not predetermined points in the direction that functions aren't predetermined.
 

kibou

Member
Local time
Today 12:17 PM
Joined
Aug 25, 2010
Messages
93
---
we don't use the word "type" at all in pod'lair because in MBTI type refers to an aspect of people that MBTI believes doesn't change over the course of the person's lifetime. a person's cognitive configuration (which we call mojo) doesn't change throughout their lifetime. the way they develop their system and play it (Gamestyle Riffs) is can change over the course of a lifetime. we can physiologically verify this.

"currently we don't know enough to determine whether cognitive configuration is predetermined"

that may be true for people in general but in pod'lair we know enough to know that cognitive configuration is predetermined because we can see it. =) if you train/study you can see it too, and you are welcome to learn more.

you can be an introverted or extroverted person, but in mojo you are built with a system that is Objective or Subjective.
 

blarg

Muhahahaha. Ha. Ha.
Local time
Today 12:17 PM
Joined
Jul 13, 2011
Messages
99
---
Location
Right behind you
Pod'lair does seem to be a very interesting theory, and I'm definitely going to check it out. Also, as for people being Objective and Subjective...I think that's also a part of (scientific method forbid) Socionics. Extroverts are supposedly objective and introverts are supposedly subjective. I wonder if that's also the way it is in Pod'lair. I'm going to refrain from talking about PL theory unless I'm learning something about it because I'm a complete noob at it.
 

Adymus

Banned
Local time
Today 9:17 AM
Joined
Sep 13, 2009
Messages
2,180
---
Location
Anaheim, CA
Pod'lair does seem to be a very interesting theory, and I'm definitely going to check it out. Also, as for people being Objective and Subjective...I think that's also a part of (scientific method forbid) Socionics. Extroverts are supposedly objective and introverts are supposedly subjective. I wonder if that's also the way it is in Pod'lair. I'm going to refrain from talking about PL theory unless I'm learning something about it because I'm a complete noob at it.
Yeah, but wording it like "Extroverts are supposedly objective and introverts are supposedly subjective" can be kind of somantically trixy, just because "objective" tends to have other meanings of its own, like being Judicially Objective or unbiased. So I am not sure what they mean in Socionics if they word it like that, and would be hesitant to say they mean it the same way.

In Pod'Lair, having Subjective Cognitive Configuration means that your Configuration leads with a Cognitive Function that is Inherently Subjective, which ties to one's "inner world" in the sense that it has a highly personalized functionality, in other words, you could say that it speaks to us in a language that is unique to yourself. Then having an Objective Cognitive Configuration means that your Configuration leads with a Cognitive Function that is Inherently Objective, which ties to one's "Outer world" in the sense that it has a very Universal functionality, in other words, you could say that it speaks to us in a language that can be perceived and comprehended by all (Not necessarily interpreted with specific intention, but comprehended none the less).

To add to what Kibou was saying, with Pod'Lairs People Reading methods, we actually have observed that a person keeps the same Cognitive Configuration as infants and then till death, a person can be Read as baby, and then of course they can be read to have the same Configuration later in life.. That is just that natural law angle to this, it appears to be what is actually occurring.

Now here is the logical angle on it: With what we understand of Cognitive Configuration, it actually does not make sense that there would be a point in time when Cognitive Configuration was just amorphous and shapeless. As soon as you are born, you begin learning at lightning speeds, however, you actually need a Configuration to be already in place to actually learn, otherwise information could not be made sense off or processed in any way. They begin building an understanding of the world around them, but their Cognitive Configuration is composed of the tools that they need to build that understanding, so they would actually need it set in place in order to hit the ground running. So to answer part of your OP, it is actually not true that you develop one function at a time as you age, you actually have all Four Conscious Functions being used at a conscious level as soon as you are born. The Psyche simply would not work if it did not have Four Conscious Functions, they are all connected, and they all need each other to work. However, being that they are all conscious at the same time, does not mean that they are all equally conscious, and you can think of your Top Two Functions being closer to the foreground of the Psyche, while the Bottom to are closer to the Background of the Subconscious.

At this point, your Cognitive Configuration will then be subject to all kinds of external influences, that alter how you are using your Cognitive Configuration, not the configuration itself, just how you wield it, and how much trust and confidence you will have in certain parts of it. In others, development of the Psyche does not occur like Clockwork (This happens at age 5, that happens at age 12, etc), it occurs as you begin experiencing life, and it shapes differently depending on many things, some external, and some internal. It is not necessarily true that a person will always be Confident or skillful, or value the use of the Functions that they lead with, it all depends on the life they have lead thus far, and if they have been trained by the various influences in their life to distrust certain insights that they get from their Source, then will create a cycle of dismissing those insights. You can think of the "Personality" as the end result (Not only an external manifestation, but internal as well) of your Cognitive Configuration, you Gender, your Culture, your upbringing, and your Life experiences. It is not all defined by your Cognitive Configuration, it does some of the defining, but definitely not all of it.

This is why behavioral assumptions of MBTI and the other typology models are unreliable in identifying Cognitive Configuration, because it assumes everyone in a certain Configuration will behave like their stereotypical perception of that one, and it has no way of knowing when that is not the case. Something that you would need physical verification, and not a reliance on assumptions or stereotypes to do.
MBTI is still in the dark on all of this because you would actually need to be able to physically verify Cognitive Configuration to observe that it is occurring as soon as one is born. However, Jungian based Methodology has no other way of identifying Cognitive Functions in people, other than off of stereotyped behavioral assumptions, which will obviously not be seen until certain mature ages, and is not even a reliable way to Identify Cognitive Functionality in the first place, as it lacks physical and objective verifiability.
 
Top Bottom