lately, i've hated being alone.

[shoeless]

i know the difference between extroversion and introversion. it's where you draw your energy from. but these days, i'm miserable when i'm alone in my room, and excited/energized when i'm out with friends.

when i was younger, i was a complete loner. my friends were few and far between, and i spent most of my time in my room, either distracting myself or feeling sorry for myself. i always tested as an introvert, but now i'm thinking, could that be because i would answer the introverted questions due to my habits rather than my preferences?

could i really just be a shy extrovert?

i read in psychology today or something about the difference between a shy extrovert and an introvert and an outgoing introvert and an extrovert. it sort of got me thinking if i'm a shy extrovert, or an outgoing introvert, or what. i can't tell anymore.

because, like i said, it's like i have to be with people these days to be happy. it's like i can't find fulfillment by myself anymore. after school, i can't just go home anymore -- i have to find someone to attach myself to. be out for as long as possible.

any thoughts?

 

[Toad]

I've been feeling the same way lately. When I'm alone I just feel so lonely. Being around people doesn't help much, but it distracts me from my loneliness.

I'm really bored with life right now.

Maybe I'm a shy extrovert too...

"Shy Extrovert: A person who performs well socially, but experiences painful thoughts and feelings. "

 

[transformers]

many shy people outgrow shyness in adulthood and become quite outgoing. what was enough socialization back then ceases to be enough anymore because their circumstances have changed, their personality has developed. you could be experiencing something like that.

 

[asdfasdfasdfsdf]

"i read in psychology today or something about the difference between a shy extrovert and an introvert and an outgoing introvert and an extrovert"

i would like to hear these differences. anyone care to explain?

 

[Anthile]

Many people seem to feel that way around christmas time.

 

[Cavallier]

Many people seem to feel that way around christmas time.

Ha. I was thinking this exact thing this morning.

@ Shoe: I was also thinking about the fact that even when I'm feeling lonely I don't actually want other people around me. They just irritate and exhaust me. There are times now, while in a healthy long term live in relationship, that I wish I could go back to the serenity of being lonely. I call it lonely as apposed to alone because I feel a certain melancholy that distinguishes the two. Yes, I want that melancholy...I haven't figured out why except that it's strengthening somehow.

Hmmmm....Even when I'm completely relaxed and having a great time with my friends the actual social interaction itself still leaves me exhausted. I don't get energized by hanging out with even my closest friend. I don't suppose this actually helps you at all though...

 

[Beat Mango]

Hmmm I need to observe you with your friends to be able to tell. What do you do with your them, what do you talk about? Do you lead the socialising or go with the flow? Do you have a photo of you with your friends? That can give me a clue.

 

[shoeless]

"i read in psychology today or something about the difference between a shy extrovert and an introvert and an outgoing introvert and an extrovert"

i would like to hear these differences. anyone care to explain?

shy extrovert: someone who is energized by people and is exhausted by being alone but has underdeveloped social skills/can be anxious around people
introvert: someone who is exhausted by people and needs time alone to recharge after socializing

outgoing introvert: someone who is socially developed and often charismatic, but is still exhausted by people and needs alone time to recharge after socializing
extrovert: someone who is energized by people and is exhausted by being alone, has good social skills


that's essentially the difference.

Hmmm I need to observe you with your friends to be able to tell. What do you do with your them, what do you talk about? Do you lead the socialising or go with the flow? Do you have a photo of you with your friends? That can give me a clue.

i dunno. i think when i was younger i was always just too... insecure and socially undeveloped to put myself out there, even though i would always desire to be around people, have decent friends, etc. i just thought i couldn't because i was crippled by introversion. or something. but nowadays, i've developed a lot more socially, i've been able to make friends, and so on, and i find when i'm alone i get bored very easily and often rather sad and drained.

HOWEVER at the same time, i don't know if it's just a reflection on my home life that makes me feel that way, or what. i dunno. i still function better in smaller groups or alone rather than with crowds, i'm just not necessarily happy about it.

with my friends, depending on who it is to some extent, lately i have been a lot more open than i used to be, and we can talk about essentially anything. i'm very touchy-feely with certain people (to the point where onlookers would think we're just a big group of lesbians or something) and love hugs and affection and whatnot. i wouldn't say i necessarily lead the socializing, i'm fairly go-with-the-flow in general, but i dunno, it's hard to say. and... i dunno, i don't have any photos on me atm (i'm at school so i can't check facebook) but if i get one i'll post it.

maybe i'm just smack-dab in the middle. i dunno.

Edit: i've also noticed a lot of INTP's talking about being very loud when they were children and growing more introverted -- i was just the opposite. a very, very quiet child, growing perhaps more extroverted.

hmmmm.

 

[Cognisant]

outgoing introvert: someone who is socially developed and often charismatic, but is still exhausted by people and needs alone time to recharge after socializing

^ That's me.

I don't really understand loneliness, because I don't really get lonely.
But I can appreciate being around people, for a little while at least.

 

[EditorOne]

Yup, me too, outgoing introvert at this phase of my life.

However, I'm one of those INTPs who can take it easy around people I've known a long, long time, whether they are actually friends or not. It's strangers who wear me out. Might not something similar be involved in what you're feeling, Shoeless?

 

[Agent Intellect]

Yup, me too, outgoing introvert at this phase of my life.

However, I'm one of those INTPs who can take it easy around people I've known a long, long time, whether they are actually friends or not. It's strangers who wear me out. Might not something similar be involved in what you're feeling, Shoeless?

That's what I would have asked. I have only one friend, outside of family (cousins etc) but when I'm around people I know well, I can be relatively outgoing - at least in small groups of them (I clam up a bit even at large family gatherings). A year and a half ago I had two co-workers (both of which no longer work with me anymore) that I believe were ENTP and ENTJ and I used to get into very enthusiastic debates with them (sometimes even shouting) and I felt quite 'extroverted' around them. It's new people and strangers that makes me act shy. That being said, though, I really have no problem being alone, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't happy when a friend wanted to hang out.

 

[shoeless]

the thing is, i don't know anyone for a "long, long time". i'm a military child; i'm forced into a new setting every three years, and that means new people. my friends here, none of them i've known longer than four months.

i dunno. i'm really starting to think i'm a mildlly socially repressed ENTP. i need to look more into it.

 

[Ulysses]

Many people seem to feel that way around christmas time.

Seasonal Affective Disorder? I wonder how many INTPs are affected by this sort of depression.

 

[duchess]

I feel the same way (hating being alone). I do think the holidays has a lot to do with it, and I don't really understand why.

I spent several long years being very alone. Last year I got to a point in my life where I just didn't want to think anymore (although I know that's not possible) but I just wanted to go out all the time in attempt to not think.

So I went out a lot. Mainly to goth clubs. I like to dance. I like to dress up (sometimes). I was in this state where it was just a matter of "who's available?" If one person was not, I would try someone else, or I would just go alone and end up meeting a new person.

I met a lot of interesting people that way.

I think I'm still kind of in that "wanting to go out all the time" state, although I would like to get away from the club scene. I have not been able to find anything to replace it yet, and just NOT going out reminds me too much of my isolated past which I never want to return to. So right now I'm kind of in limbo.

Anyway I think a lot of people don't like being alone.

 

[Firehazard159]

I'm about the same as duchess, though varying situations and such. I found activity partners for a while, never had a consistent scene but was very socially active with singular varying partners from time to time, of course, those friends always fade away, whether due to my inability to hold on to friendship or whatever.

I do still want to get out, experience things, be active, and mostly be with someone during it. I don't think being introverted implies you want zero social contact whatsoever, in fact I'd think that'd be more rare than common.

Any INTP who thinks they want to be socially isolated, and is on this forum, or IRC, is immediately contradictory, though there is a higher level of detachment here, we come here to *feel less lonely.* To make that connection with others who think like us, share ideas, etc - Be *social* in our own fashion.

I want to get out more, but... well there's a myriad of reasons as to why I don't. And it leaves me feeling quite lonely at times.

Heh, I went to a work christmas party last weekend, I ended up sitting by myself with my phone browsing intpforum and posting, to make myself feel more comfortable (after trying to interact with people, of course. I give things a fair shot before I resign myself to being a socially acceptable shadow). I was alone in the room, despite 35 other people. Again, the difference between lonely and alone.

In other words, I don't think we're (shy) extroverts for feeling lonely. Wish I could hang out with you and help abate the loneliness though, might make some of mine go away :P

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

Yup, me too, outgoing introvert at this phase of my life.

However, I'm one of those INTPs who can take it easy around people I've known a long, long time, whether they are actually friends or not. It's strangers who wear me out. Might not something similar be involved in what you're feeling, Shoeless?

I'm much the same. I don't often look forward to hanging out with friends but find I'm very glad I did afterwards. I don't get exhausted by it unless the hanging out is for long periods like a week at a beach house or something. By the end of one of those, I'm more than ready to get home.

I too don't understand the concept of loneliness. I spend days at a time without being around another or even talking on the phone. My voice gets so underused that it gets gravelly and hoarse within an hour being around others sometimes. None of it bothers me one bit. So I'm not at all helpful here shoeless.....

 

[Da Blob]

Alas, I hate to suggest this at this time of year, but maybe you have had a problem in your life that has begun to plague you (unconsciously perhaps) recently. This is a problem that you can ignore in social settings, so you seek such.

It would be one thing to realize one has been a suppressed Extrovert the entire time and another to be driven to Extraversion because 'suddenly' solitude seems to be threatening instead of comforting...

 

[Ermine]

I guess I could offer my perspective. I've always been introverted, but over the past couple years, I have significantly more social skills and can usually enjoy social situations now, even if I'm still merely observing and saying things partially to see the reaction. But at the same time, being totally alone is draining as well after a while. I can only be alone for a whole day, and then I'm sick of it. Moderation seems to be the key. Not being totally alone, not being surrounded by lots of people all the time. I've found I'm best off with an "introverting" buddy or two. Just someone to have around who is also comfortable with silence but is also up for a conversation or some social event.

 

[fullerene]

I hope this doesn't sound mean or anything, but every time I see one of these threads, my insides scream "why, whenever people don't seem to fit X mold, don't they *shrug* and say 'I guess MBTI just isn't that accurate.'" ...or at least not in it's assertion that types stay with you for life.

 

[jhbowden]

i know the difference between extroversion and introversion. it's where you draw your energy from. but these days, i'm miserable when i'm alone in my room, and excited/energized when i'm out with friends.

In Jungian terms, extroversion and introversion have to do with whether you're a subject or an object-oriented personality. At its theoretical basis, it has nothing to do with people. And since you're acting like poor me me me, rest assured that the introverted label applies.

Extrovert unhappiness is like, my life sucks because I can't get x, y, and z.

 

[kantor1003]

Yup, me too, outgoing introvert at this phase of my life.

However, I'm one of those INTPs who can take it easy around people I've known a long, long time, whether they are actually friends or not. It's strangers who wear me out. Might not something similar be involved in what you're feeling, Shoeless?

Sometimes I actually prefer strangers by a long shot. The reason why is because they don't know who you are, so you are free to be whoever you want to be. If you have hanged with two different friends for a long time, they "know" you and how you are. This can cause you to become socially stagnant. They expect you to be who you always have been, and you give them what they expect. With strangers you can try to expose a new side of yourself to a greater degree. You can experiment with new social approaches/personas. I think it develops you a lot as a person.
An example; Let's say you are the shy friend thats always sorta in the backseat in your circle of friends.. chances are you will remain that way. With a new group, you could present yourself in a way that makes you the "leader" in that particular group. Sure, it might not be "you", but since you already have presented you as a leader, they will keep looking at you that way, and you will probably keep presenting the same image to those new friends.

Bottom line, meeting new people can be a great learning experience and a platform for social growth.

 

[shoeless]

In Jungian terms, extroversion and introversion have to do with whether you're a subject or an object-oriented personality. At its theoretical basis, it has nothing to do with people. And since you're acting like poor me me me, rest assured that the introverted label applies.

Extrovert unhappiness is like, my life sucks because I can't get x, y, and z.

way to couch it in douchey terms, man. so you're saying extroverts are inherently materialistic?

that just sounds awful.

anyway, it's not the just being alone/being with people thing that's making me think i could simply be a suppressed ENTP. a lot of the discrepancies i have with INTPness seems to be solved by simply the order of functions, with the judging and percieving functions being flipped -- as in, INTP -> Ti, Ne, Si, Fe and ENTP -> Ne, Ti, Fe, Si. i've never felt like i develop my ideas as well as other people here, and i've certainly never felt that Fe was truly my inferior function -- it just seems to fit better.

in certain areas, not all.

i know that MBTI is not the bible. it's not like i'm basing my life around my type. but if i am, in fact, a repressed extrovert/ENTP/whatever, i feel it would be beneficial for me to know, so i can further, you know, develop/discover/whatever myself, work on my weak spots, etc, having something of a map to guide me.

edit: this video is pretty interesting i think:

YouTube- Myers Briggs, Part 2: Introversion/Extroversion

 

[Saoshyant]

It seems to me that you are just going through a "Fe" development stage. Or a "Ne" function phase depending on the person or type of people. I agree with jhbowden's above definition is more accurate of the introversion/extraversion.

The "shy" extrovert and "outgoing" introvert are terms that could have so many meanings. And when you combine those very broad terms with Jungian terms, you are going to have confusion. My guess is someone who is a "shy" extrovert is someone who has an underdeveloped extrovert functions. Whereas the "outgoing" inttrovert would be more comfortable with the Ne and Fe for example with an INTP.

Now I am going to have to watch all of barcode's youtube videos.

 

[jhbowden]

this video is pretty interesting i think

What was up with the existential quantifier?

 

[Irishpenguin]

Let's see here, how do I start this off? hmm, Okay, I think I've got it but there is probably going to be some repeated thoughts that have already been mentioned. HERE WE GO!!!

Okay, I'll start by saying that my best friend is an ENFP, so as you can imagine he's always like "Dude, let's fuckin' DO SOMETHING!!!" (not an exaggeration). So now, take this fact and combine it with the fact that I've hung out with this guy for about 8 years now, and you'll see that I have been prompted quite often to just get out and do something....anything......as long as it gets us out of the house.

Now I can't really say much about middle school through the 9th grade since most of that time was spent discovering the awesomeness and getting burnt out on MMORPG's for me and my friend. And even then, after about 3 days of playing WoW my friend would just be like "Okay I'm sick of this SHIT! lets go out and DO SOMETHING!!!"(again, this is literally how we normally communicate). Okay I'm stating to get off topic so........

The point I'm trying to get at is that while in this state of just constantly playing on the computer and talking on Team Speak, I was pretty much fully charged and not drained of energy (although Team Speak kind of drained me a little bit, but not nearly enough for me to want to actually get off). Okay, so with all of this energy ready to do stuff, occasionally, which is about once a week, I would take him up on his offer to go do something.

Lookin back, I think around 10th grade (when we were done playing WoW) I went on a spree of wanting to go out and do stuff just as much as my friend did, However this wore off after maybe....oh I dunno....a month?...maybe? I dunno. Anyways, eventually it literally got to the point where I would go out and do something one day, and stay home alone for the next couple of days recharching. My friend would call about everyday asking to do something and I pretty much had it down to a science that every 3 days I would most likely be up to the task of doing something.

This is one aspect that I like about the definition of Introverted and Extroverted. Because I know that I love going out and doing stuff with friends, it's fun. But afterwords I seriously need some down time to get the engines going again. But what you seem to be describing, Shoeless, is kind of.....oh wait, aww crap.....yup.......brain fart......totally forgot.........*sigh......whelp, seeing as how I pretty much can't continue any sort of rational thought that I may have had going in this post (btw, did I have one? Cause I got lost) I might as well just say.......hmmmmmmm.... Oh wait, Shoeless, I remember a question, did you ever happen to say whether or not being around the people actually gives you energy, or is it just that you really love to be around them? That might help me on my thoughts about this....

Sorry if this post is extremely hard to read, I was pretty much just, yeah, you guys know. Oh well, Hope it helped, and if it didn't, hope it wasnt a drag to read.

 

[shoeless]

see yeah, i'm trying to pinpoint exactly what it is, whether they give me energy or merely enjoyment. i wrote down the differences between extraversion and introversion according to barcode's video on a couple nice little post-it notes... in fact, let me write it out here too:

extraversion
- define themselves in terms of externals -- relationships, what they own, etc
- stimulated by the claims and pleasures of the outer world -- pay attention to societal obligations
- "leap before they look" -- ie, talk without fully developing their ideas
- may not recognize their own needs; lose themselves in their societal obligations, leading to "burnout"
- often outgoing & expressive

introversion
- introspective
- define externals in terms of their own viewpoint -- internal world is reality
- aware of purely mental phenomenon (impressions, facts, ideas) -- focus on less tangible things to judge, such as what people say rather than how they dress
- "look before they leap" -- prune their ideas before expressing them
- self-aware, sometimes passionately intense, but may not recognize their effect on others


now, in applying this to myself, i find myself agreeing with certain parts of each. with regard to extraversion, i get the "burnout" thing she was talking about all the time, and i do often find myself basing my self-worth on the way i think others percieve me (trust me, i wish i didn't, but it's almost neurotic in its intensity sometimes). however, on the introverted side of the scale, i am very self-aware, and i tend to apply my own perceptions to external objects, rather than societal perceptions.

the whole "look before you leap" divide seems to be about fifty fifty with me, depending on what sort of setting i'm with -- sometimes i talk without thinking, sometimes it's the opposite. though that makes me wonder if it's just me inhibiting myself more than it is me pruning my ideas before i feel ready to present them. i am very able of processing information internally, but sometimes i feel the need to extravert my ideas anyway, because i have great difficulty untangling things inside my head.

so... hmmmmmmmm.

i have the next two weeks off of school... this is going to be interesting.

edit: another fun little anecdote i thought i'd mention... in october, i was sick and bed-ridden for a full week with something that was probably swine-flu. i felt like ASS but i couldn't get out and do anything, and it sucked major monkey balls. one day i was just so fucking sick of it, i just sucked it up and went to after-school play practice (which requires walking all the way across base in the cold), even though i was technically not allowed to and felt like i was going to throw up and/or shit myself. still, afterwards, i did feel much better, at least emotionally. so either i'm really stupid, really needy, or secretly an extrovert. or all of the above. i dunno.

 

[Da Blob]

Seasonal Affective Disorder

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_affective_disorder

I posted the link in case one is not familiar with this 'temporary' disorder, this Wiki post is OK. I think that it is worthy of note there are some self-help therapies that are really effective...

 

[Agent Intellect]

There is one definitive way to tell (although probably not practical):

Spoiler

Extraverts produced significantly greater alpha mean amplitude (showed less internal arousal) than did Introverts at frontal and midline frontal sites F3 and Fz; central and midline central sites C3, C4, and Cz; parietal and midline arietal sites P3, P4, and Pz; temporal site T6; and occipital sites O1 and O2. As redicted by Eysenck’s (1967) theory, Extraverts produced significantly less amplitude in the faster frequencies of beta 2 and beta 3 bandwidth (at the bottom of FIGURE 1, again indicating less cortical arousal), but the activity pattern was mixed for beta 1 bandwidth (discussed below).

Introverts showed more amplitude in the beta 2 bandwidth for the frontal sites F8 and Fz; central sites C3, C4, and Cz; and temporal site T5. Introverts also showed more amplitude in the beta 3 bandwidth for the frontal site F8; parietal site P4; and temporal sites T4, T5, and T6.

The mixed activity pattern of the beta 1 bandwidth revealed that Introverts had greater mean amplitude than Extraverts at the F8 frontal site, whereas Extraverts had greater mean amplitude at frontal site F7. With the exception of the beta 1 data, the analyses of the bandwidth activity of alpha and beta 2 and beta 3 data support Eysenck’s theory and will be addressed in the discussion.

Our data strongly support the basic tenets of Eysenck’s (1967) biological theory of personality concerning arousal and suggest that, at a minimum, the Extraversion–Introversion scale of the MBTI tool is measuring these constructs at least as well as Eysenck’s own EPI index (Eysenck & Eysenck, 1964). Unlike
much of the past research, which only examined changes in alpha bandwidth activity (see Gale & Edwards, 1986), we found differences in the beta 2 and
beta 3 bandwidths as well. Specifically, we obtained the EEG differences proposed by Eysenck. Extraverts produced greater mean alpha bandwidth amplitude, whereas Introverts produced more amplitude in the higher frequency beta bandwidths.

If past researchers based the discrimination of Extraverts and Introverts on data that primarily included beta 1 activity (e.g., Gale et al., 1969; Gale et al., 1971), it might explain why equivocal results were obtained. Our data show that the beta 1 bandwidth (13–25 Hz) is a mixture of both greater mean amplitude for Introverts at one frontal site and for Extraverts at another. As mentioned above, the beta 2 and beta 3 bandwidth data were more definitive. Introverts generated more activity in the beta 2 and beta 3 bandwidths than Extraverts at all significant recording sites.

It is difficult to compare the differences between Extraverts and Introverts in Gale et al. (1969) and the present study for a number of reasons: First, their data are problematic because they used a bipolar reference in the occipital area only, with the inherent problems associated with this type of reference. Second, the bandwidths they used were not the same as the ones we used; their filters included both high alpha and low beta in one bandwidth (11.5–14.5 Hz), and they used only one other beta bandwidth (14.5–20 Hz). The latter is similar to our beta 1 bandwidth and includes the concomitant problems with using that bandwidth.

In contrast to Rösler (1975), we did not find significant differences between Extraverts and Introverts in either the delta or the theta bandwidths. In Rosler’s study, the delta and theta bandwidths just barely reached statistical significance and only occurred in a triple interaction of task, frequency, and Extraversion, and specifically appeared only when the subjects were in a stressful task situation (e.g., calculation under pressure). Their tasks did not correspond to our eyes-open baseline condition, which was not as stressinducing.

Source.



and there is this from wiki:

Spoiler

The relative importance of nature versus environment in determining the level of extraversion is controversial and the focus of many studies. Twin studies find a genetic component of 39% to 58%. In terms of the environmental component, the shared family environment appears to be far less important than individual environmental factors that are not shared between siblings.[13]

Eysenck proposed that extraversion was caused by variability in cortical arousal. He hypothesized that introverts are characterized by higher levels of activity than extraverts and so are chronically more cortically aroused than extraverts. The fact that extraverts require more external stimulation than introverts has been interpreted as evidence for this hypothesis. Other evidence of the "stimulation" hypothesis is that introverts salivate more than extraverts in response to a drop of lemon juice.[14]

Extraversion has been linked to higher sensitivity of the mesolimbic dopamine system to potentially rewarding stimuli.[15] This in part explains the high levels of positive affect found in extraverts, since they will more intensely feel the excitement of a potential reward. One consequence of this is that extraverts can more easily learn the contingencies for positive reinforcement, since the reward itself is experienced as greater.

One study found that introverts have more blood flow in the frontal lobes of their brain and the anterior or frontal thalamus, which are areas dealing with internal processing, such as planning and problem solving. Extraverts have more blood flow in the anterior cingulate gyrus, temporal lobes, and posterior thalamus, which are involved in sensory and emotional experience.[16] This study and other research indicates that introversion-extraversion is related to individual differences in brain function.

(also check out these sites: (1) (2))

And this description from here:

With extraverts:

• Show energy and enthusiasm.
• Respond quickly without long pauses to think.
• Allow talking out loud without definite conclusions.
• Communicate openly - do not censure.
• Focus on the external world, the people and the things.
• Allow time for bouncing around ideas.
• Take words at face value.
• Do not assume commitment or decisions made.

With introverts:

• Include introduction time to get to know you and trust you.
• Encourage responses with questions as, “What do you think?”
• Use polling techniques for input and decision making.
• Allow time for thinking before responding and decision-making.
• Make use of written responses where practical.
• Concentrate on one-on-one activities.
• Do not assume lack of interest.

But, after all is said and done, I am curious as to how one could tell the difference between introversion and extroversion just from self and peer analysis. Some people seems like obvious introverts and extroverts (I would consider myself an obvious introvert) but it does not seem to be a perfect dichotomy, but more of a continuum.

This is one of those cases where MBTI seems very inadequate, because introversion/extroversion are dependent on the order of functions and not particularly how outgoing or introspective someone is. It's also one of the reasons I'm interested in the neuropsychology of MBTI, because as the links I've provided show, there is a definite difference in the brain activities of people with various personality types; I wish there was more research in the area.

 

[KazeCraven]

I hope this doesn't sound mean or anything, but every time I see one of these threads, my insides scream "why, whenever people don't seem to fit X mold, don't they *shrug* and say 'I guess MBTI just isn't that accurate.'" ...or at least not in it's assertion that types stay with you for life.

I think this nature of MBTI makes it very difficult to attack and refute. If I suddenly don't fit one type, maybe I was mistyped all along.

Anyway, I'd like to ask: Is it possible to be both introspective and extraverted? Keirsey's Temperament Theory asserts that ENxx types are such, with 'N' being introspective and 'S' being observant. E-I, then, only refers to being expressive or reserved and where one gets one's energy.

I never really understood the energy thing, because I seem to gain energy from other places (novel ideas, powerful music, opportunities, ...). If people are a source of great ideas/discussion, then I could go all night. If not, I zone out and wait for a chance to exit.

I was shy for most of my childhood, but now I'm not and things change only a little bit. I became more outgoing and expressive, but it didn't really change how much time I spent hanging out with people.

 

[fullerene]

That's... sorta was I was thinking too, yeah.

It's a mix, I think. For one lots of these threads are made by people who don't know what the dichotomies mean, and think that something they like makes them a bit of the other type, or whatever. For another, lots of things online (even somewhat reliable-looking ones, written by people who at least have PhDs in something or other, because they're called doctors) say different things from each other, so it's really hard to attack "mbti" as a whole, when the people in charge don't agree.

Then like you said, even if there were a single idea on what the cognitive functions are, what it means to prefer one over another, and the things that make the different types, you can always "have been mistyped all along" and poor lots of energy into something that... well, I mean... does it make a difference? Of my time here, the primary difference I've seen people say that it actually makes in their own lives is to say "I finally have a group of people with whom I can belong" (in certain ways)--but if you're not such an easy person to type, then even figuring out which one you "really" are wouldn't exactly help you feel like you have a home. If having a type would make a "home" for you, then you would have known which one you were from the start, because it would been clear to you since it's your home. The other primary benefit I've heard is so that you know and understand how other people think, so that you don't become narrow-minded or insenitive or whatever else. But that benefit can be gained no matter which type you, specifically, are, because then you're using them to learn about other people.

So I have problems with 1. what the "actual" typology-theory really is (much like trying to attack a religion, for the poor sci/faith/phil subforum folks, I imagine... so many different people say different things that it's tough to critique the "whole thing"), 2. whether or not that theory is even accurate, 3. the fact that most of the time it's misconception-driven anyway (in that the thing that people may think make a type a type is different from what any expert would call it), and 4. because I don't think you gain much by worrying about it so much.

Maybe I'm just looking for them... but like, at every turn in there there's something where I look and think "if you thought even one of these things might be a possibility, you wouldn't be worrying so much which one you were--so why, why are you still worrying abou it so much?"

I have been in a really irritable mood lately, though.

 

[Starfruit M.E.]

For me, I have always felt a need to be around people. When I was little I always avoided it because I felt inadequate and shy, but I always wished people would like me, and I wanted to be touchy-feely because I wanted to be loved and understood. But I didn't let that happen because I didn't have the confidence or the social skills to make it happen. As I got older, I became more confident, so I have spent more time with people. But after I have had company over for a few days, for instance, I just need a break. I am not sure anybody is really meant to spend all of their time alone, but I think there is enough of a difference between true introverts and extroverts that you should be able to tell. I mean, having people around is great. But at some point, do you just need a break? Or could it go on forever?

 

[Thoughtful]

Yeah, even we cold heartless introverts get lonely sometimes!

It happens to me from time to time, and in such cases, I find it hugely refreshing to go and talk to one or two of my close friends or to make/want one or two more friends, but never enough to make me think I'm an extrovert. On a few rare occasions, I've wanted contact with more, but for me, it's usually just a phase.

Ultimately though, "inrtovert" and "extrovert" are just generalizations, and MBTI, as specific is it sounds, is still generalizing. my advice would be: Don't let it by itself define you; you may be very much like an INTP, and reading definition may help you take more notice about yourself and your habits, but don't let yourself be confined by it, if you're feeling extroverted now and then, there isn't anything wrong with you, let yourself be you.

 

[Auburn]

..I wish I could go back to the serenity of being lonely. I call it lonely as apposed to alone because I feel a certain melancholy that distinguishes the two. Yes, I want that melancholy...I haven't figured out why except that it's strengthening somehow.

*eyes widen* I can identify with this so much..

I start to miss that melancholy feeling if I've been happy for too long. The common idea that happiness is an emotional state which all should strive for, doesn't apply to me. Sorrow is my happiness, loneliness is my companion, and silence is the most pleasant of all conversations.

Shoeless - I feel like crap for not having read this sooner. I've been meaning to tell you that I sense you're extroverted for quite some time now - ever since your first youtube video.

As you mentioned, you're a military child and don't have many long time friendship. Taking what barcode said - about extroverts needing outside stimuli to help define themselves - into account, I wonder if the lack of this, due to the inconsistency in your external environment, made you into a more withdrawn extrovert. You couldn't properly define yourself by the external because the external was always changing, thus you resorted to introspecting.

Of course, this is all hypothetical, but I mean, if we look at it from the perspective of you being an introvert all along, it seems more likely that a military-child-like environment would only further encourage that introspection and thus creating an extremely hermit-like/isolated INTP, instead of a relatively socially adept and people-seeking INTP such as yourself.

 

[Darby]

I would argue that Introvertedness does not exclude close friends (someone may have already made a comment stating this or refuting this but I'm too tired to read all the posts right now, I'll do it after this) so although I do get much of my energy from friends, it is not from people I do not know, at which point I would say I am still an introvert, especially since I can still handle being alone. I think the bigger reason I like being with close friends is I get energy from ideas, and so having a conversation/discussion with a close friend often energizes me because of the new ideas spawned from such, whereas large group discussions I get shut out and we end up going in a circle of stale thoughts.

 

[echoplex]

My dilemma is that I hate both being alone and being around others, for different reasons of course. I have wondered if I could be a shy extrovert myself. When I first learned about MBTI, I assumed that the I-E was the most obvious for me and that I probably shouldn't even question it. I mean, I have been such a shy and self-conscious person that there's no way I could be an extrovert, right? But then, I have those moments where I'm absolutely, albeit secretly, miserable being alone. And I find it harder to relate to the idea of being perfectly happy with solitary activities and being able to self-energize than others here seem to.

Unfortunately, being around others doesn't help. There's no one I'm really comfortable being around at the moment. Everything sucks, basically.

 

[Cavallier]

Of course, this is all hypothetical, but I mean, if we look at it from the perspective of you being an introvert all along, it seems more likely that a military-child-like environment would only further encourage that introspection and thus creating an extremely hermit-like/isolated INTP, instead of a relatively socially adept and people-seeking INTP such as yourself.

I agree. I have a little experience with constant uprooting though I'm sure not as much as you shoeless. Personally, having moved across the country several times and having changed many several times I simply didn't try that hard to connect with people. I knew that I wouldn't have them around for too long so I developed relationships that made life easier (such as school chums) but kept them distant. My not having roots merely reinforced my introverted habits of dropping relationships without any emotional repercussions. It made me more introspective as well.

Perhaps, as Auburn hinted at, you are an extrovert who hasn't had the environment and encouragement needed to bloom fully.

As an aside:

I'm definitely an Outgoing Introvert. I'm fully capable of being affable and gregarious but it drains me a lot and unless I'm doing it with friends I quickly tire of the whole thing. The Outgoing Introvert seems like merely a cultured well mannered introvert. A healthy introvert so the speak. I get along with people perfectly well...I just get tired of them quickly.

 

[KazeCraven]

@Cryptonia: In regards to your whole train of thought, I would say that after having been involuntarily stuck on MBTI since last summer that much of the "actual" theory is a little too nitpicky for me to really classify myself or anyone else. I could give examples, but you probably understand when I say people are dynamic paradoxes in regards to type theory. On the other hand, the MBTI (along with extensions based on MBTI) has been immensely helpful to me in understanding other people's perspectives and motives as well as my own. I say this because, after all MBTI has thus far explained (or given a sense of community as you say), I think it's only natural for people to want to get a full understanding of where they fall in the theory and why the smallest thing is off. Kinda like when I watch a good anime season or finish a good book; all I ever seem to want is more, especially if there isn't adequate closure.

As far as why people do this questioning, I think it has more to do with solidifying that sense of belonging than anything else. Through most of the threads I see (or imagine/sense) that each person is asking "This is normal for us, right? Other INTPs do this too, right?" Some just phrase it in a way such that they can't be "rejected" (i.e. "our type does X" gets response "no, you just aren't one of us"). Perhaps I'm just projecting though, because I have always felt some type of kinship with the term "introvert."

Now that I've pretty much "come to terms" with being an INTP I'm starting to have serious doubts about the validity of this theory. Dividing between thoughts|feelings and detail-oriented|global and judging|perceiving has lots of intuitive appeal, but due to the lengthy debates about which function is what in practice makes me skeptical. If I turn out to be ENTP at a later date or something then I'm calling shenanigans on MBTI (or at least the version that says extraverts aren't introspective). I had always been more of a fan of Keirsey's work anyway, because it actually told me why I should care about my type (better self-image through being competent, ingenious, and resolute).


Okay, I stared at my computer monitor for like 15 minutes as I tried to explain why I'm a part of this community if I'm finding fault with the theory. I figured it out: what I really want are some people I can bounce ideas off of through discussion of said ideas. I've been flipping around this forum trying to get ideas of what it is I want from people, as people here are as close to my mindset as I can find, and now I figured it out. Not really sure if that's relevant to your post anymore Cryptonia, but whatever.

 

[Anthile]

Back in the Golden Era, when Red Mage was here, we created together something like a communication matrix or the MBTI. I always told him to make a thread about it but somehow it never worked out. However, communication is the key for the understanding of the I/E axis.
In fact, "socially active" and "socially reactive" would be much more appropriate terms.
Do you approach other people easily?

 

[shoeless]

in certain situations yes, in others, no. but then again, i'm insecure out the wazoo, so you've got to take that into consideration too.

 

[Agent Intellect]

I thought this was a decent site (from one of Blobs links) talking about the differences between "innies" and "outies" (as it calls them).

Feel free to read it, it's short and is not a bunch of jargon about the brain, I promise.

 

[amorfati]

Warning: This post is filled with opinions and viewpoints from my own subjective experience and is not necessarlily factual.

I came to a sort of epiphany (one that I've had many times in the past, but which I always seem to forget) the other day when I was with a group of people at starbucks that the one thing in life that I love more than anything is good conversation.

I am an extreme introvert (The last time I took the MBTI I scored a 100% introvert)

There is nothing contradictory happening here. I am starved for good conversation because it is nearly impossible for me to find with about 99% of people who walk this planet. I become so exhausted by the inane shit that most people talk about that I continually retreat into my isolated fantasy world to keep myself from going crazy. I love trying to understand how other people percieve the world, what their dreams and fears are, what kind of past they have and how it's possibly shaped who they are, basically, everything about who they are inside, and if I could find a person who would embrace such subject matter, I would be able to converse with him/her for forever without feeling tired.

I don't think introversion/extroversion has anything to do with being around other people or not being around other people. Introversion/extroversion are two different ways of processing information. An example of this truth is to be found in one of the most classic examples of a pure INTP, Socrates. Everything ever recorded about this man has him placed in a setting where he is conversing with other people. His entire life was spent discussing philosophy with other people. If being alone/being with others is what defines introversion/extroversion, than Socrates has to be considered one of the most prolific extroverts to ever walk the face of the earth.

There is a huge correlation between shyness and introversion, but not necessarily any causation.

 

[Anthile]

I am an extreme introvert (The last time I took the MBTI I scored a 100% introvert)

Nah, that simply means that you scored 100% introvert according to the MBTI.

 

[Logician]

people are, by default, social being. You may be a introvert, but your still human, and as you feel depressed if you sit around all day doing no physical activity, you will also become depressed if you never interact with people. Its just your bodys way of forceing you to do what it wants without realy harming itself, "do this are we wont let you be happy"....

unless your anti-social, a sociopath, or some other psychological disorder.

note: i think. (just a thought i had and ran with)^

 

[Starfruit M.E.]

There is nothing contradictory happening here. I am starved for good conversation because it is nearly impossible for me to find with about 99% of people who walk this planet. I become so exhausted by the inane shit that most people talk about that I continually retreat into my isolated fantasy world to keep myself from going crazy. I love trying to understand how other people percieve the world, what their dreams and fears are, what kind of past they have and how it's possibly shaped who they are, basically, everything about who they are inside, and if I could find a person who would embrace such subject matter, I would be able to converse with him/her for forever without feeling tired.

I agree!!! In trying to talk about those things, though, I often feel awkwardly restrained by social standards. I feel as if I must change the topic every so often, for the sake of the other person. But if I knew that we each had the same desire in the conversation, and we felt secure with each other, it would be very honestly relaxing. Even thinking about that is relaxing.

 

[Adymus]

any thoughts?

Many Thoughts!


First off, I would say you probably have figured out the trick to being an Outgoing introvert by now, Considering you are into acting and all.

Being an Outgoing introvert myself, I've figured out how it is that I am getting my energy even through extroversion.

The thing about how we work is this: it is not just straight generic introversion that stimulates us, it is Ti-Ne. Mainly so Ti because it is the thought process that we get our energy from, but it is Ne that provides the Ti with new stimulating information. Therefore without proper Ne stimulation, your Ti will not have anything fun to play with, so to speak.

If at home there is nothing new or interesting for your Ne to feed off of, your Ti will be bored as well. However if you are with people that can get your Ne Bouncing, your Ti will feed off of that and be energized as well.

 

[Puffy]

I think it's easy to fall into the MBTI trap here, get to the root of the problem, it's good to know roughly where you stand in MBTI but in the end you are still a unique person and it is you not MBTI that will define you. It's more than likely that your personality is growing that you are reaching out of your shell, this is not down to extraversion it is something natural; even introverts need to be around other people from time to time, it is schizoids that don't.

If you want to see this in a purely MBTI perspective then perhaps you are not extraverted but are becoming more extraverted. I noticed that when I was 16 I came up being about 80-90% introverted, these days (19) I come up around 55-65. If you have always been tested as an introvert then I think it is unlikely you have jumped to being extraverted (in fact I think this is near impossible). In the end all you can do is embrace your impulses.