Language complaint

[kantor1003]

(This doesn't really apply to english natives, but input appreciated regardless.)

(First paragraph is just ranting)

I hate my language. I can't stand to read it. It makes me want to puke and it fills my head with disgust. I really think it's an ugly language and one devoid of any elegance. Reading norwegian poetry is like watching a bad movie. Watching norwegian movies is even worse. Perhaps if you live here long enough you can manage to swallow the abysmal acting, the bad manuscript and the horrid plot, but you can't swallow the language. Try to watch a norwegian movie once and try to listen to how they sound when they are supposed to be angry or tough. It is painful. Anyways;

My problem is perhaps one many non-english speakers share. I spend all my time reading english text, watching english spoken movies (movies aren't dubbed in norway (thank god)), and I spend way more time writing in english than I do norwegian. When I think in words it's now mostly english (my limited english). In my daily conversation I'm finding myself more and more having to resort to english words to be able to express myself either because there isn't a proper norwegian word for it or because I don't know the proper norwegian word for it. Most of the things I read aren't translated into norwegian and I can't see how, when the amount of new information rapidly increases every year, non-english languages can keep up translating every new english word that comes up to describe something new. Just yesterday I found myself reading about geniuses (I was supposed to write a paper about it) and I couldn't find any norwegian word for historiometry even though it's a really old term. I think that in the future we will have to have one language to keep up with the higher information flow.

As for me, I'm fucked. I can't speak english to save my life, my written english is mediocre at best and I have a hard time expressing myself in real life as I have to try and translate everything I read and most of what I think from english (a non-native language I'm not as competent in to begin with) to norwegian (a language I highly dislike and one I'm not as competent in as I should be due to me never reading norwegian) on the go.
(I'm having a hard time expressing myself using english exclusively too, (written that is, I can't speak to save my life) so I have difficulties either way.)

Sigh, I wish I had grown up in an english speaking country.

 

[thoumyvision]

Makes for some pretty awesome music though

YouTube - Windir - Blodssvik

 

[aaaw]

I hate my language.

If you hate your language you hate yourself. Actually I would go further than this and say you are projecting your self hatred on an innocent victim, your language.

Norwegian is a nice language, full off nice melodies, crazy dialects and some funny and unique expressions. Furthermore, it has hugely influenced the development of the English language which you think is so great.

Sigh, I wish I had grown up in an english speaking country.

Wow. Really? You get the best of both worlds - you learn English at an early age, but have another language (or two). I would choose to be born in a non-English speaking country any day. As an English native speaker it is so much harder to learn another language.

 

[MissQuote]

I had no idea english wasn't your native language until now.

 

[Words]

Ethnocentrism.

You can listen to grandma, if you want. Actually, I'm not sure what its about. But it might help.

Patricia Ryan: Don't insist on English!

 

[Stoic Beverage]

If it's any consolation, I never would have guessed you didn't speak English natively by your writing.

 

[kantor1003]

Makes for some pretty awesome music though

Yeah, distorting the vocals to the point of the language and it's intonation being unrecognizable certainly helps

...

Well, regarding self hatred, I'm not sure wether I hate myself. I don't see how that has anything to do with me disliking the norwegian language either way though. I just think that knowing more languages (english, hungarian, norwegian) makes me more aware of how a certain language sounds. Me thinking more in english for instance haven't anything to do with me trying to escape my self because of self loathing, but is more something that is bound to happen by much exposure to it. Leaving aside the aesthetics of the norwegian language, I dislike the confusion, practical difficulties that often results when one are overtly exposed to a language that is not the one spoken in your everyday life.
I have noticed at my university that in some classes even teachers, or the professors rather, sometimes make use of english words when talking about a newer field of research because there isn't any norwegian words for it.

Ethnocentrism.

You can listen to grandma, if you want. Actually, I'm not sure what its about. But it might help.

What I expected. Grandma don't like to see languages die out

Stoic and miss: Thank you. However, I really have great difficulties getting my ideas across, and most of the time I'm painfully aware that I wont be able to convey them the way I'd like to and it will therefore, naturally, be cause for misinterpretation and/or an oversimplified version of what I really had on my mind. I just haven't the vocabulary to be able to share my ideas properly. I guess this applies to my native language as well. Perhaps I'm just bad at expressing myself. My mind must be too blurry.. and if it is, it is all the more important to portray the small nuances/contours as accurately as possible.. otherwise it just turn to something it isn't.

 

[Cavallier]

The English language is incredibly adaptable. We like to steal words from other languages and mish-mash things together to make new words on the go. That makes it easy to explain things in technical detail since we aren't shy about just appropriating the word we want. It's relatively easy to learn to communicate in English I've heard but hard to master completely. Most native English speakers don't really understand the mechanics of it's grammar.

I feel for you but I'm also incredibly jealous that you know two languages rather fluently. (I count being able to communicate any idea more complex than "Where is the bathroom/bar?" as being fluent.)

I suggest learning a third language! Swahili perhaps?

 

[Puffy]

All I can say is your grammar is so much better than tons of native English speakers I know. I wouldn't know you were from Norway, but for the "Norway" tag under your location

 

[Bird]

Any english speaker that learns several other languages
undoubtedly knows the mechanics of their own language.
Learning other languages taught me more english grammar
than any grammar lesson I ever had.


I've never really watched a Norwegian movie due to language
barriers and the apparently horrible acting, but I can't imagine
it would be any worse than the majority of low-budget indie
american films.

 

[a detached retina]

^ Absolutely, I never appreciated the gerundial and present progressive until I started to learn French. I have a difficult enough time expressing my ideas in english and when I go to write a french paper I come off as I did in middle school: A jumble of notions and half baked ideas conveyed very poorly.

 

[cheese]

Your english is good even for a native speaker! Perhaps you're talking about general incompetence, rather than incompetence regarding English specifically? You might just have a hard time expressing your ideas. I do as well, and I'm a native speaker. I'm aware of the vocab but it isn't mentally accessible. Trust me, a lot of native speakers fucking suck at conceptual communication, and their functional vocabulary is abysmal. I'm talking uni grads here.

Being able to express yourself is something some people are naturally better at, regardless of language. According to some type theories, INTPs are naturally very handicapped in this area. But it's something that can be practised and improved upon. Reading extensively and watching British TV (as they tend to be more linguistically creative and in touch with the language's 'breath', if you know what I mean) will make up for vocab deficits. I actually think if you grew up in an English-speaking country you'd be worse off than now. You'd have all the arrogance and assumed mastery of the language that comes with being a 'native speaker', and none of the actual ability. (Like being a talentless, undeducated slave master.) You'd just have a lot of catchphrases, in-jokes, colloquialisms and cultural inheritance with little improvement on the idea-outlet front. You might be better at making emotional appeals, because those work well with culturally understood expressions and proverbs. But that doesn't sound like what you're looking for.

 

[aaaw]

I don't see how that has anything to do with me disliking the norwegian language either way though.

Admitedly my original reply should have been posted in your Drunken Club, but the point I was making was that one's language makes up a significant aspect of one's identity. If you hate your language, you are hating a big chunk of who you are.

As someone quite familiar with Norway and the Norwegian language, i can only say that your perception of its inadequacy is not shared by me. There are a number of words and expressions that lack an equivalent in English. I know lots of people who think it is an aurally pleasant language.

I have noticed at my university that in some classes even teachers, or the professors rather, sometimes make use of english words when talking about a newer field of research because there isn't any norwegian words for it.

This is the way languages evolve. Ideas and concepts from one language enter another language where they are either adopted as is or adapted to suit the local ear. This is why so many English words are taken from French, German and yes, even Norwegian.

You should appreciate and celebrate your unique language.

 

[Minuend]

I have no particular opinion as to how useful the Norwegian language is, but I do find the English language more fun to play with. It can better be tailored to my personality. When I write I prefer small novels I prefer English because I'm able to create a mood which is rather difficult to achieve with Norwegian.

I do enjoy knowing more than one language, however. There is inspiration to be found in Norwegian literature as well, which you can intertwine in your world view in general.

 

[Wizardry]

Italian is absolutely mesmerizing for me to listen to. I went to a family reunion and just every word I heard from some distant relative, she was 100% immigrant, was just like poetry and so elegant. She also had a good speaking voice and was very expressive with her emotions and hands so it definitely added to her charm. I remember thinking that I wish I knew Italian AND US butchered English.

Part of the problem around the ole' US of A is there is like some rule or something where every English/Grammar teacher has to be some gigantic asshole in every way. Then again I cringe when I see minor typos some people do that even I recognize, I couldn't imagine having to deal with that every day. I had one teacher who took pictures of local businesses and newspaper articles and showed how he grandly corrected them on his picture paper. He was pretty funny. Anyway, I HATED the class and HATED the people who taught those classes. Popular phrases change and the grammar has changed and continues to change all the time. I've been trying to repair the damage that has been done, you probably have better grammar than I do, lol.

German was an ugly language to learn, it was a lot of guttural noises and just...I could say, "Here is a pink cupcake" and it would seem like I was saying "I'm going to kill you in a fire" or something. Just a really harsh language. I took several foreign language classes. Not really fluent in any because it just wasn't my main focus. I've become very interested in Latin and I'm picking up a lot of Japanese via exposure.

 

[Da Blob]

Actually it is rather odd that non-natives that actually have learned English, usually do a much better job of understanding the language than native speakers do. Certainly that is the case for most forum members, including Kantor.

Of course, having "English" classes shoved done your throat for 14 years while attending American schools does not help. I learned more about English in my two years of Latin classes than I did the entire 14 years of so-called English classes.

I don't know if humans really have an efficient language. Expressing one's self via a symbolic structure seems to be an option that is not readily available. 65 - 90 of the information available in a face to face conversation is nonverbal communication.

What is odd is that those of us who have focused on the 10 - 35% of human communication that utilizes words as the primary means of communication are seen as rather strange people. There seems to be a trade off. If one invest all of one's cognitive assets into becoming skilled at the manipulation of words, then it seems one loses the ability to process nonverbal communication (?)

What is sadder perhaps, is that some of those verbose intellectuals insist, that if one can't put some experience into a word, then that nonverbal experience cannot be real...


OOK! What was the OP again...?

 

[Dimensional Transition]

I know what you are feeling man.
Dutch sounds so stupid... Some people here think I have English/American roots because of the amount of English words I use, it's ridiculous.

 

[kantor1003]

Cavallier: Ambapo ni bafuni?

Cheese:
I think you are right in that it's more that I'm just bad at expressing myself in general, regardless of the language being spoken. It's very tiring.
I do read rather extensively and I'm sure it would have helped a lot if it were norwegian texts I was reading. I am curious though; what makes some people "naturally" worse at explaining/expressing their ideas? Probably a question that haven't anything other than speculative answers yet.

aaaw: Yes, I know language makes up a significant aspect of one's identity, but by having multiple languages and preferring one to the other, I'm not sure wether one can draw the conclusion that disliking one of the languages, or by greatly preferring one language to the other = a dislike of their own self.

Minuend: Yes, I presume knowing more than one language never can be too bad of a thing. As several have pointed out, by learning another language they in turn got a greater grasp and/or appreciation of their own language. I guess it's kind of similar to music in that by me learning more piano, it will positively impact my guitar capabilities as those instruments are just two different tools for expressing music - like english and italian just are two different tools for communication.

Wizardry: haha, yes, german is a very harsh language I guess thats why it appeals to me on many levels. Perhaps one should use different languages for different emotional qualities Everything love related in italian or french(?), every "sophisticated" debate had in english and every ad hoc bashing in german etc.

Da Blob: Yes, I've heard the same thing - that nonverbal communication constitutes a larger percent of communication than that of the spoken word itself. Not to talk about intonation and the quality and manner of speaking.
It is interesting though, that when interacting using a medium like this, we are more free (or in a way forced as one can't really address just a text or someones thoughts exclusively I think) to make creative leaps (to compensate for all the nonverbal information missing) in interpreting the person we are interacting with; the way he/she looks, wether it is a he or a she, the manner in which you picture them saying it to you - in fact, most of their whole person. I have probably created a "persona" for most people I have interacted with here. Something to make up for the lack of anything outside the written text/thoughts itself (even the thoughts expressed themselves can probably mean, or be judged different by you depending on the persona you have created, or the person you picture saying it). It's funny to think that when I am addressing people here I am addressing something that in large part is my own creation.

 

[Causeless]

I had no idea english wasn't your native language until now.

I wasn't quite sure awhile back myself. It was a tad more obvious then, but he's also improved at a staggering rate.

 

[Lobstrich]

@ OP - Oh yes, I'm with you (Danish) I sometimes have to say the word I'm looking for in English becasue I either can't remember or I don't know the word in Danish. I even think that my writing skills are better in English. Aside from grammar errors here and there.

I don't hate Danish though. I don't really know what I'm trying to add other than "I know what you mean?" Maybe I should just have said that.

 

[xbox]

I also have certain occasions where I use my native language's words in replacement of an English word, because I can't think of something better, and vice versa. English was my second language. I think Norwegian language/accents are very nice..

 

[Lobstrich]

I think Norwegian language/accents are very nice.

Oh god no.. Scandinavian accents are horrible, Danish in particular. Strike that, all of them in particular!

Spoiler

 

[xbox]

Haha I guess its different for me. I do like their bands though lol.

 

[Meer]

I love Swedish accents. Maybe. ehh..maybe not.

Your english is fine. I'm pretty sure a lot of INTPs have trouble finding the exact right word. I know I spend a lot of time trying to find that word that means exactly what I'm trying to express that I know exists, but I just can't.

 

[Lobstrich]

I'm pretty sure a lot of INTPs have trouble finding the exact right word. I know I spend a lot of time trying to find that word that means exactly what I'm trying to express that I know exists, but I just can't.

Yeah I do that alot as well. I can't just be satisfied with saying a synonym. If I want 'that' word, it's the only one. Sometimes people get really annoyed with me because go "yeah, it's like this word X but it's something else" And then I start saying it in English instead and so on. And not only that, but when I'm already in a conversation which I'm interested in enough to "look for words" I talk alot. I can see how that could get annoying, heh.

 

[nexion]

You have good English. :/

I would not ever consider that you have trouble with English based on your posts.

That being said, though, English sucks too, it is just more commonly used than most other languages. There are many, many words in other languages that English has no substitute for, by the way.

I want to see a truly great language pop up at sometime. I don't think English is it.

 

[kantor1003]

Thank you

What don't you like about english? As Cavallier said, it really is quite adaptable.
I have a hard time seeing any language, other than english, emerging as a potential global language, if indeed we are going in that direction. And there is nothing in the way of it being improved, and it most likely will.

 

[Lobstrich]

I want to see a truly great language pop up at sometime. I don't think English is it.

I met a guy once who had been in China, and had to learn it. He told me that in his opinion Chinese would be better than English since it has very simple rules and because of that, it was very easy to learn. I can't quite remember exactly what he said though so don't pin me on it.t

EDIT: I'm studying Japanese myself, and think thatit could be a substitute (probably not, though) It's grammar is kind of 'funky' but when you get it down it's very easy to understand and then you've pretty much gotten it. I'm still getting surprised(annoyed) by English and Danish grammar.

 

[BirdValiant]

I'm of the opinion that some cultures and languages can be inherently better than others. Of course, to be "better," there needs to be a particular quality that is judged more important than others.

In the case of cultures (sorry for the aside), you could measure the survivability of a particular culture, or its capability for technological progress, etc. For example, if culture A ritualistically kills their finest children with quality X, while B does not, B will contain of people with the quality X, while A will eventually lack these people. If X is considered a good thing, and a culture is judged to be good if it fosters X, then B is better than A. If you consider that ritualistic killing is so quaint as to be good, then A is better than B. But that's just stupid.

With languages, one could measure the efficiency of thought transfer as a judgement of the quality of a language. If a fluent speaker of language A takes 30m seconds to convey a particular topic, while it takes a fluent speaker of language B 5 minutes, and if efficiency is considered good, then A is better than B. If wasting people's time and hearing yourself speak is considered good, then B is better than A. But that's just stupid. Entish may be suitable for trees, but it would be a terrible language for humans.

In other words, languages can be better than others for the same reason that it is possible to construct a crappy conlang. With natural languages, however, ridiculous excesses will eventually be removed, but they can still remain to a degree. It is also possible for a language to strip too much from itself, such that speed is very high, but comprehension is lowered. This situation seems less likely than wasteful speech, though.

I study Russian, and I can say that, when translating from English to Russian, in the majority of cases, more words and more syllables are needed. In this aspect, English is slightly better than Russian. What's more concrete is the writing system: it is essentially impossible to write completely cursive cyrillic script. Before the letters л, м, ъ, and я, it is necessary to pick up your pen. There are no built-in cues to distinguish the beginning and end of the written letters ш and и.

Spoiler

Figure 1. Above, "милиция," meaning police, is written in cursive script. Notice the difficulty in determining where where the letters begin and end. Below is a particularly annoying example in English, "swimming." Notice that the connection line after "w" is on the top, that there is a dot above the i's, and that there is an easily visible connector between the m's.

Additionally, in print, л is often different from п by one pixel only. Л should by all rights be identical to Greek Λ (and is in block handwriting,) but held-over traditions force it to be flattened at the top and therefore similar to П.

Another annoying thing is that it is not permissible to use a final serial comma in Russian (e.g. "I talked to the twins, Jack and Jane." vs. "I talked to the twins, Jack, and Jane." In Russian, the former style is compulsory, even if the latter meaning is called for.) Here, Russian is clearly inferior, though only due to the poor decisions of the people at their language institute.

So English's writing system is clearly better than Russian's. But when it comes to spelling, Russian wins hands down. Considering everything I've learned so far about the two languages, I'd say that English, due to its adaptability, is slightly better than Russian, overall. That's not to say that it's so much better that Russian should be abolished. I'm sure there are languages out there that are so radically inefficient, annoying, or excessive, that they will and ought to be phased out in the presence of a better one. I don't know enough about Norwegian to say, but I highly doubt that it would be such a language.

 

[digital angel]

Kantor1003,

I think you do pretty well. Your english isn't bad. None of us are perfect.

 

[Lobstrich]

Did Kantor ever say his English was bad?

 

[nexion]

As for me, I'm fucked. I can't speak english to save my life, my written english is mediocre at best and I have a hard time expressing myself in real life as I have to try and translate everything I read and most of what I think from english (a non-native language I'm not as competent in to begin with) to norwegian (a language I highly dislike and one I'm not as competent in as I should be due to me never reading norwegian) on the go.
(I'm having a hard time expressing myself using english exclusively too, (written that is, I can't speak to save my life) so I have difficulties either way.)

.

 

[Lobstrich]

@ nil - Thank you. All I see though, is him saying it's "mediocre" So I ask again, or no wait. I'll rephrase my question. Did Kantor ever say that his English isn't good? =)

 

[nihilen.]

Norwegian must be an absolutely horrid language if you find English to be aesthetically desirable.

 

[pjoa09]

I never knew google translate was that good.

I can't speak the three languages i am supposed to know and they are quite pretty languages

English works because you can say windows xp as it is and associate it to a window.

fuck french they pronounce too little

 

[Dimensional Transition]

French is horrible haha. SO MANY EXCEPTIONS. You have to watch so many things at once when talking in French, it's really ridiculous. And then comes the pronunciation... Ugh.

I agree English is a really nice, easily adaptable language.

 

[nihilen.]

but but french is the most beautiful language.

les haineux vont haïr
/dandinant en sifflotant

actually I hate writing in french, the accents, the rules, I can't be bothered, but I love reading and listening to the language.