KILL ALL THE POOR

[LOGICZOMBIE]

carlin and chomsky explain that "the news" controls WHAT we talk about

this certainly seems true today - everyone is talking about "the topic"

but, let's take a step back and look at the "big picture"

some prisoners attack and kill some guards

the guards "warn" the rest of the prisoners, all two million of them, telling them that if they don't leave the prison immediately, they will all be slaughtered

and then the guards begin systematically bombing the prison, starting from the north, and working their way south

without ever opening the gate

https://presearch.com/search?q=the+guards+begin+systematically+killing+prisoners

the rich have always killed the poor


i mean, they create the carnival tokens we call "money"

and they control the flow of ridiculously expensive weapons

it's actually kinda funny

how the poor don't even stand a chance


race, religion, culture, ethics all mean nothing

it's just rich and poor

 

[ZenRaiden]

Unfortunately poverty is not just monetary, but also state of culture and mind.
Culture meaning not the way we watch theater or how many presidents can we name, or whether we sneeze and say bless you.
What I mean by culture is social harmony and behavior on functional level, not the would be things.
We humans are like hamsters that got used to being in the box.
Business people want people who think outside of the box, to solve real world problems, but no one can think outside of the box.
We ride the box, we live in the box, we study in the box, we write in the box, we die in the box.
All life is in box. Sanitized clear and defined by us. That is not the rich doing this to us.
That is us accepting the box.
Kind of like being poor categorically defines the box.
If people grow up in the box of being poor they behave this way all their life.
It takes great deal of reprogramming to redefine the box.
Kind of like feeling rich and acting like it makes you actually rich.

Its not a monetary issue. There is plenty money to go around.
Poor people just get adjusted to being poor.

For instance many people don't like to talk about money or finance.
They live paycheck to paycheck.
Is it the money that behaves?

Same way assholes define the world.
I would not say its the rich.
Many rich are good people.
Id say its assholes with money.

As someone wise said, money does not make people bad.
Money simply amplifies the person you are.
If you are good, money amplifies that.
IF you are asshole, money amplifies that.
If you are drug addict money amplifies that.
If you are religious money amplifies that.
So money does not define anything.
Its just that we live in a world where we define the success and goodness by money, even though money does not actually do that.
Success is independent of money, and goodness as well.

Same way I would say conflict is not defined who has and has not, or money or weapons.
We know that violence can always be justified. Its easy three step progress.
Ultimately violence is so easy to justify is wonder there is not more.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

For instance many people don't like to talk about money or finance.

ok hold up


these people don't give a shit about "money"

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Same way assholes define the world.
I would not say its the rich.

the reality is,

if you're not growing your own food

and building your own house

then you are exploiting the poor somewhere

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

though money does not actually do that.

it's more complicated than you might think,

 

[Black Rose]

How to Eradicate Global Extreme Poverty​

Bureaucracy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Bill Gates on why new A.I. changes everything - and his summit with Elon Musk and Sen. Schumer​

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

How to Eradicate Global Extreme Poverty​

Bill Gates on why new A.I. changes everything - and his summit with Elon Musk and Sen. Schumer​

ok, i'm not against "helping" or "trying to help" people

but the MYTH that subsistence farmers and native people who have lived in harmony with nature for literally THOUSANDS OF YEARS

the myth that these people "lead miserable lives" and need to be "rescued"

is total

bullshit

how about we simply leave them alone and stop poisoning them with industrial waste

and

also

maybe we should stop bombing them

 

[Black Rose]

we

leave them alone and stop poisoning them with industrial waste

You need to separate the bad people from what they are doing to these people then.

I mean what are You going to do, what is Your plan?

You need to take responsibility for yourself if you want to make a difference.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

You need to separate the bad people from what they are doing to these people then.

I mean what are You going to do, what is Your plan?

You need to take responsibility for yourself if you want to make a difference.

ok,

i'm simply pointing out the reality of the situation

my "contribution" is avoiding frivolous trinkets and travel

and using logic

to peel away the thin veneer of "good versus bad"

if you like killing the poor

you should just say that's what you want

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

You need to take responsibility for yourself if you want to make a difference.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

All life is in box.

it's maybe more like some sort of blanket

 

[ZenRaiden]

That is fucked up.

 

[Black Rose]

I am kind of poor.

In the USA the median income per day is 168 dollars.

I live on 38 dollars a day.

I ask my mom for money sometimes but I am trying to get a job.

 

[Black Rose]

You need to take responsibility for yourself if you want to make a difference.

View attachment 7295

That is fucked up.

You two don't give a damn about poor people.

All you want is to kill rich people.

This is what happened in Russia in the 1920's.

This is what Nietzsche called resentment and resentment is just the need for revenge.

I do not believe in revenge. Yet some do.

 

[ZenRaiden]

You two don't give a damn about poor people.

All you want is to kill rich people.

This is what happened in Russia in the 1920's.

This is what Nietzsche called resentment and resentment is just the need for revenge.

I do not believe in revenge. Yet some do.

Sorry, but I was not responding to you. I was responding to Zombie man. I mean the financial video he posted.

 

[ZenRaiden]

More specifically I want to address the video about the FIAT currency.
I kind of always knew the financial mechanisms are rigged.
I just did not realize that dollar is actually monopoly money.

 

[Black Rose]

Humans are animals. Animals eat other animals. This is not good or evil but that does not mean humans cannot be sadistic. People either have a positivity bias or a negativity bias and this is not the way the world is.

Saying that I need to be responsible for anyone other than myself means you expect me to solve the world's problems. I do not control what Bill Gates does. I do not control what rich people do. I can only do what I can do.

If you believe humans are animals then what are you going to do to make sure we don't kill each other for resources? What are you going to do so people live better lives?

 

[Black Rose]

 

[ZenRaiden]

Saying that I need to be responsible for anyone other than myself means you expect me to solve the world's problems. I do not control what Bill Gates does. I do not control what rich people do. I can only do what I can do.

Look, responsibility extends to what you take to be yours.
We all have different responsibility.
But, as society we all have kind of connection.
SO even if I don't take responsibility for stuff, what happens to others can impact me.
What happens to me might impact you.
So being entirely devoid of what happens is impossible.
There are different things we can all do.
Society organizes around those principals.
Financially the people running banking systems are responsible to people who hold trust in banks for instance. Although we kind of agreed with the financial institutions to fraud. Maybe unknowingly, but fraud is when you don't know you were given a shitty end of the deal. That is fraud.
If for instance I sell you a car, that breaks down, BUT I don't actually know it was a flawed car, I am not really responsible.

But if I know when I am selling the car, that the brakes are unreliable and you die, in the accident where your bakes fail I am responsible.
Much like financial institutions regulate market crashes, where people think its random, but they do know it, because it is them who decide when and where markets crash. They are responsible for the accidents.

 

[ZenRaiden]

If you believe humans are animals then what are you going to do to make sure we don't kill each other for resources? What are you going to do so people live better lives?

What is the definition of animal?
What separates you from the category of animal?

 

[Black Rose]

What happens to me might impact you.
So being entirely devoid of what happens is impossible.
There are different things we can all do.
Society organizes around those principals.

Every agent affects the system.
So if I am doing my best the system functions on my part.
The problem comes when I am told that what I am doing is not enough and I should be trying to change the system in ways that will have no results.

Look at Occupy Wall Street. They did not change the system at all.
You expect me to be pepper-sprayed for no reason and lose everything to a failed cause.

What is the definition of animal?
What separates you from the category of animal?

A biological unit that eats to maintain a metabolism.
A human just happens to be an animal that has the capacity to reason.
They are not separate, why would you ask that question?

 

[ZenRaiden]

Every agent affects the system.
So if I am doing my best the system functions on my part.
The problem comes when I am told that what I am doing is not enough and I should be trying to change the system in ways that will have no results.

Look at Occupy Wall Street. They did not change the system at all.
You expect me to be pepper-sprayed for no reason and lose everything to a failed cause

Wait where in the prior text did anyone insinuate this? Like your conclusion from the this thread is someone wants you to go out and get pepper sprayed?

A biological unit that eats to maintain a metabolism.
A human just happens to be an animal that has the capacity to reason.
They are not separate, why would you ask that question?

Well you mentioned animals. I was kind of wondering what that is about.
You are kind of all over the place. Not sure if I am missing something between the lines here or something else.

 

[Black Rose]

Every agent affects the system.
So if I am doing my best the system functions on my part.
The problem comes when I am told that what I am doing is not enough and I should be trying to change the system in ways that will have no results.

Look at Occupy Wall Street. They did not change the system at all.
You expect me to be pepper-sprayed for no reason and lose everything to a failed cause

Wait where in the prior text did anyone insinuate this? Like your conclusion from the this thread is someone wants you to go out and get pepper sprayed?

post#10

A biological unit that eats to maintain a metabolism.
A human just happens to be an animal that has the capacity to reason.
They are not separate, why would you ask that question?

Well you mentioned animals. I was kind of wondering what that is about.
You are kind of all over the place. Not sure if I am missing something between the lines here or something else.

The discussion turned into one on human nature in post#10

 

[ZenRaiden]

The discussion turned into one on human nature in post#10

I don't think that what you two are talking about, not in text.
Again am I missing something deeper here?
Because the fact is no one really mentioned violence here in any other form other than stop bombing poor people.
Not sure what I am missing.
I guess there is more to this, but I stand naively here.
As for Veneer theory I think it means that what wiki says is that humans are kind of good in many ways, and they are not merely brutish apes.

 

[Black Rose]

As for Veneer theory I think it means that what wiki says is that humans are kind of good in many ways, and they are not merely brutish apes.

The implication is that he is implying I believe humans are evil which is not what I believe at all. I believe humans are animals. You failed to read my post correctly in that context #17

 

[Black Rose]

the fact is no one really mentioned violence here in any other form other than stop bombing poor people.

If you want people to stop doing that then take responsibility and stop them.
Don't expect me to change the system in failed causes or say I believe what I do not believe.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

All you want is to kill rich people.

ok, are you suggesting that simply because i think it's totally fucked that 2 million people are being bombed in their own homes

that is somehow

magically

a secret code for "kill all millionaires" ?




this is a "yes" or "no" question

 

[Black Rose]

All you want is to kill rich people.

ok, are you suggesting that simply because i think it's totally fucked that 2 million people are being bombed in their own homes

that is somehow

magically

a secret code for "kill all millionaires" ?




this is a "yes" or "no" question

you suggested i believe people are evil in post#10

you are acting in bad faith so I do not need to answer

"yes" or "no"

 

[Black Rose]

people are not "evil"

people need to take responsibility or the system does not function.

but the system is what it is so results matter, either you do what works or you do what makes you feel good (which does not help much).

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Don't expect me to change the system

INTP = conceptual problem solver

nobody expects you to **physically** do anything

we are simply exploring concepts

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

you suggested i believe people are evil in post#10

post #10 is simply a description of veneer theory

 

[Black Rose]

you suggested i believe people are evil in post#10

post #10 is simply a description of veneer theory

Responsibility = the belief people are evil (?)

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

people are not "evil"

ok, do you believe that no thing is properly "evil" ?

like, i get it, animals are generally not considered "evil" because they are incapable of "moral decision making"

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Responsibility = the belief people are evil (?)

i don't think that follows logically

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

I just did not realize that dollar is actually monopoly money.

bingo

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

I live on 38 dollars a day.

clearly you are not the proximal cause of the slaughter of native peoples

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

I believe humans are animals.

ok, so we are actually in perfect agreement


Veneer theory is a term coined by Dutch primatologist Frans de Waal to label the Hobbesian view of human morality that he criticizes throughout his work. Although he criticizes this view in earlier works, the term in this form is introduced in his 2005 book "Our Inner Ape", denoting a concept that he rejects, namely that human morality is "a cultural overlay, a thin veneer hiding an otherwise selfish and brutish nature".

 

[ZenRaiden]

@Animekitty I think you kind of missed the point of what is said.
You took certain implications here to mean something that its not.
Actually you kind of make sense, if I look at it from your point view, but you are making points that were never really necessarily brought up.

Ergo money problems are financial theme.
Does not mean you ought to burn the system to the ground.

We can draw million conclusions here, one and the other.

For instance for me the question becomes "What do I do when bank freezes my account?"

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

You need to separate the bad people from what they are doing to these people then.

ok, hold on, now i'm confused again

how can people be "bad" if they're just animals ?

 

[Black Rose]

people are not "evil"

ok, do you believe that no thing is properly "evil" ?

like, i get it, animals are generally not considered "evil" because they are incapable of "moral decision making"

how can people be "bad" if they're just animals ?

people understand things in moral ways but even when we do understand we act because we become a certain way by the laws of the universe. even so, like poison should be kept away from children, some individuals just are the way they are and need to be separated or they cause certain outcomes in society. I would say that evil has been abstracted from what those outcomes are.

Responsibility = the belief people are evil (?)

i don't think that follows logically

You took certain implications here to mean something that its not.

I said people need to be responsible in post #8 so why did he (logiczombie) bring up Vaneer theory if there is no relation?

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

For instance for me the question becomes "What do I do when bank freezes my account?"

the government froze everyone's bank accounts in greece a few years ago, and actually converted part of their savings to bank stock certificates in cyprus (calling it a "bail-in")

and all that news you probably heard about with siliconvalleybank recently was about whether or not the federal government is ready to implement one of their newest "banking rules" and confiscate depositor funds in order to cover bank losses ("bail-in") - - since the wall-street-bail-out was so ridiculously unpopular

of course i have to mention the canadian banks froze the accounts of people that were anywhere near the trucker protests, and they froze their gofundme and they de-banked nigel farage, and i even know a few people who have been kicked out of paypal with their accounts frozen for bogus reasons

probably most people have already forgotten, but paypal even said they would start charging $1000 fees for people they caught "spreading hate speech" (which they retracted after public backlash)

and somehow americans think the "morality police" in iran are out-of-control


when you put money in a bank

it's not your money

it's the bank's money

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

I said people need to be responsible in post #8 so why did he (logiczombie) bring up Vaneer theory if there is no relation?

how exactly can i "be responsible" ?

am i supposed to personally accept the blame for israel bombing civilian homes ?

ok,

it's like totally my fault

i did it

i took personal responsibility

now what ?

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

people understand things in moral ways

ok, so now they're not like animals at all ?


here's the thing


animals understand social rules

like apes and birds and especially dogs and cats

if an animal is part of a social group and they violate a social rule

they will suffer the consequences

does this example help bridge the conceptual gap between animals and morality ?

 

[Black Rose]

I said people need to be responsible in post #8 so why did he (logiczombie) bring up Vaneer theory if there is no relation?

how exactly can i "be responsible" ?

Help the poor

am i supposed to personally accept the blame for israel bombing civilian homes ?

No

ok,

not ok

it's like totally my fault

no

i did it

no

i took personal responsibility

now what ?

You are exaggerating the situation.

You are tying to change what you cannot change on your own.

The system is what it is and all you can do is what YOU can do.

 

[Black Rose]

people understand things in moral ways

ok, so now they're not like animals at all ?


here's the thing


animals understand social rules

like apes and birds and especially dogs and cats

if an animal is part of a social group and they violate a social rule

they will suffer the consequences

does this example help bridge the conceptual gap between animals and morality ?

Animals are biological units that eat to maintain a metabolism.
A human just happens to be an animal that has the capacity to reason.
They are not separate things.

What makes humans moral or not is reasoning in some way.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Help the poor

good, ok, that's all taken care of

now what else ?

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

The system is what it is and all you can do is what YOU can do.

right and voicing my concern with america's support for this kind of atrocity IS something i can do

and it clearly has an effect on the situation

because if it didn't

why the hell would "the news" make such an effort to manufacture consent ?

 

[Black Rose]

Help the poor

good, ok, that's all taken care of

now what else ?

Is there a way you can improve things?

I was told that any problem has a number of steps involved.

Think of the biggest problems in your area and evaluate the measures needed.

Remember that you have to work within the constraints of what you and others are capable of.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

What makes humans moral or not is reasoning in some way.

ok, so now we're back to "humans are not animals" ?

p1: animals can't be evil
p2: humans are not evil because humans are animals
p3: humans have a rational function
p4: animals do not have a rational function (except for dolphins and apes and crows)
p5: a rational function makes moral intuition valid
p6: moral frameworks are perfectly rational

c1: humans can be evil because they are rational and make moral decisions

please let me know specifically which parts of this you rationally agree with

please let me know specifically which parts of this you rationally disagree with

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Is there a way you can improve things?

yes, by seeking logical coherence