Ishmael by Daniel Quinn

[Reverse Transcriptase]

I'm reading this... I'm maybe halfway through. It's fucking blowing my mind- and I really didn't expect it to be able to! I was hoping for some h(a/i)ppy finding-yourself story, and instead I'm getting philosophical cinder blocks dropped on me.

Spoiler for people who have read 1/2 of the book or more:

Spoiler

I really like the idea of a myth as: "A story interrelating a people, the world, and gods." A culture is a people trying to enact that story.

However, I disagree with some of the things... this is my case for why man is special:
We are the pinnacle of biological evolution because, after us, the greatest change in the world is not going to happen from biological evolution. It'll happen from technological evolution- a process that's a million times faster than biological evolution. In Daniel Quinn's worldview, however, the technological evolution is just man completing his mastery over the world.

The book also has a really big environmentalist element to it... which I agree with to some extent, disagree with to other extents...

I also DO feel that we have been asking the hard questions about "what is the best way to live?" But... maybe our answers have not been wildly different from our cultural mythology.

So. only Prophets KNOW how we should live. So what separates Prophets from crazy people who KNOW how to live? Were Prophets, at some point, crazy people?

Anyway. The passage that I've been reading is delightfully poignant to my recent thoughts about the world. I've wanted to try to spread a religion/philosophy.... I've been wanting to for 3 years. But it's okay to wait longer- most prophets, when they were my age, are still learning more about themselves, trading spices in the desert, hiding in egypt, or living with ascetics.

 

[NeverAmI]

I'm reading this... I'm maybe halfway through. It's fucking blowing my mind- and I really didn't expect it to be able to! I was hoping for some h(a/i)ppy finding-yourself story, and instead I'm getting philosophical cinder blocks dropped on me.

Spoiler for people who have read 1/2 of the book or more:

Spoiler

I really like the idea of a myth as: "A story interrelating a people, the world, and gods." A culture is a people trying to enact that story.

However, I disagree with some of the things... this is my case for why man is special:
We are the pinnacle of biological evolution because, after us, the greatest change in the world is not going to happen from biological evolution. It'll happen from technological evolution- a process that's a million times faster than biological evolution. In Daniel Quinn's worldview, however, the technological evolution is just man completing his mastery over the world.

The book also has a really big environmentalist element to it... which I agree with to some extent, disagree with to other extents...

I also DO feel that we have been asking the hard questions about "what is the best way to live?" But... maybe our answers have not been wildly different from our cultural mythology.

So. only Prophets KNOW how we should live. So what separates Prophets from crazy people who KNOW how to live? Were Prophets, at some point, crazy people?

Anyway. The passage that I've been reading is delightfully poignant to my recent thoughts about the world. I've wanted to try to spread a religion/philosophy.... I've been wanting to for 3 years. But it's okay to wait longer- most prophets, when they were my age, are still learning more about themselves, trading spices in the desert, hiding in egypt, or living with ascetics.

I have this book added to my list of those to buy, I saw it on a list of life changing books. I am glad to hear it is significant!

 

[KazeCraven]

I found this book to be quite significant myself. Some of my thoughts:

Spoiler

The book also has a really big environmentalist element to it... which I agree with to some extent, disagree with to other extents...

How would you disagree? I think it is pretty clear that we will have to make a change at some point and that we're nearing a serious problem.

So. only Prophets KNOW how we should live. So what separates Prophets from crazy people who KNOW how to live? Were Prophets, at some point, crazy people?

Prophets actually make a good argument. (Or pull a lot of emotional/religious heart strings.) Prophets are usually crazy people, though there is a very small chance that some of them are enlightened.

I think the key idea from Ishmael is not that we ought to stop killing ourselves; most educated people are well aware that we're doing something very bad to the planet. Rather, the key idea seems to be that our way of life, the culture that we force upon other 'primitive' cultures is arguably worse than these cultures we feel so inclined to teach.

Also, I can say on an intellectual level that it makes sense that people shouldn't have a special status over other animals, and thus we should not be appalled when natural disasters or nature kills some of us. However, considering I wouldn't say that in RL as if it were true, I'm not so sure about that. Maybe it's just because it's so culturally frowned upon.

While we're on the subject of life-changing books, any others one would like to recommend? I've been reading mostly nonfiction lately, and it's getting painfully dull. Aside from wordplay and puns, most informative books lack "life" so to speak.

 

[Vrecknidj]

I rather enjoyed the first two or so books of his that I read. By the 4th, they were getting formulaic and dull.

Some of his fundamental premises are mistaken, I think. It took me a while to see it, but, he substitutes his own teleology for the teleologies he rejects. Unfortunately, there isn't much in the way of empirical verification for some of his claims.

Dave

 

[nenigurl]

So, I have to read this book for sociology. I am about half way through. Some of the ideas are interesting, and others are so far fetched I just have to laugh. I have to write a paper on the book, and one of the questions is what is "Mother Culture" I have yet to figure out what "Mother Culture" is. Does anybody have any ideas or thoughts on "Her"? Anything would be greatly appreciated.