ISFJ, INTJ, Interactions

[ProxyAmenRa]

Know much about this?

I work and hang with an ISFJ woman. We really don't get each other or are even able to communicate with one another.

Since I am going to be here for another 3 years, do have any tips?

 

[Manic]

My wife is an ISFJ. We have some things in common, mostly the "I" part, how E's suck the life out of us and the need for lots of alone time. I love her but her emotions sometimes suck the life out of me. Most of the time we communicate very poorly and our conversations often end in conflict. Usually I try to help her solve her problem (of course) when all she really wants to do is talk about her feelings on whatever the problem is. It drives us both crazy. But I finally came to understand what she needs and I try very hard to give it to her. I have gotten better with practice.

So, my tip is to recognize that people like her have a strong need for people to listen to them and emphathize with whatever is bothering them. Everyone is different, of course, and it might work, but I do not think this is a good long-term match.

As an aside, if I ever find myself looking for a relationship again, I would be looking for an INTP girl with overlapping interests. I hope this helps.

 

[snafupants]

My wife is an ISFJ. We have some things in common, mostly the "I" part, how E's suck the life out of us and the need for lots of alone time. I love her but her emotions sometimes suck the life out of me. Most of the time we communicate very poorly and our conversations often end in conflict. Usually I try to help her solve her problem (of course) when all she really wants to do is talk about her feelings on whatever the problem is. It drives us both crazy. But I finally came to understand what she needs and I try very hard to give it to her. I have gotten better with practice.

So, my tip is to recognize that people like her have a strong need for people to listen to them and emphathize with whatever is bothering them. Everyone is different, of course, and it might work, but I do not think this is a good long-term match.

As an aside, if I ever find myself looking for a relationship again, I would be looking for an INTP girl with overlapping interests. I hope this helps.

@Manic

Sounds like the typical male/female dynamic of marriage. What's the problem?

 

[Moocow]

Know much about this?

I work and hang with an ISFJ woman. We really don't get each or are even able to communicate with one another.

Since I am going to be here for another 3 years, do have any tips?

You're an INTJ, right?
If so, then nope. What I bolded is pretty much true and while I don't think it necessarily means conflict has to arise, I've yet to see any real strategy for easy or particularly helpful communication between that kind of relationship.

Neither of the two know what the other wants or needs, or even seems likely to figure it out at any point. All the functions are opposite, and in opposite prioritization... I have known ISFPs before which have the same kind of relationships to us INTPs as the ISFJ/INTJ pair. It is just kind of a vast, alienating difference in minds. I think cooperation is possible through caution, consideration, and reservation. Be aware of what kind of expectations you'll have of her that she might not understand.

 

[Manic]

@Manic

Sounds like the typical male/female dynamic of marriage. What's the problem?

Good point!

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

She said I was cold.

Thanks for the input. I think I just need to be more "relaxed" around her. Being that she works less than 2 meters away from me, I am going to have to be more relaxed for most of the day.

Edit:

Ohh god, she was writing behind me reading what I was writing above.

FML

Spoiler

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

I figured it out. I should not speak in half-truths and riddles.

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

I have an ISFJ acquaintance. He's religious and conservative whereas I'm.... not. Generally though we do get along. He's able to intelligently discuss things (although our conversations usually end up at religion or politics) and he can make jokes too. I don't really have a problem with him.

 

[viche]

This intertype relations chart shows INTJ ISFJ relations are those of superego. That might be the problem in you not getting each other.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

This intertype relations chart shows INTJ ISFJ relations are those of superego. That might be the problem in you not getting each other.

The site seems to be socionics. I don't know much about it.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

I'd say as long as you keep it formal and are able to maintain independence it should be unproblematic.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

I'd say as long as you keep it formal and are able to maintain independence it should be unproblematic.

We're both PhD students hence working on entirely different projects.

When researching PhD at the very last minute before I accepted the scholarship, I found out that one of the fundamental keys to success is to have good social relations with the people who work around you. Well, all the PhD drop out stories generally involve an unfriendly work environment. Further more, I have just moved cities and my friends live in the previous one. One and half hours drive, ehh. Making friends in this city is somewhat important.

I am also having some cultural issues regarding body language. Apparently I am cold. Everyone is from everywhere else in the world. I am the only Australian in the office.

 

[viche]

The site seems to be socionics. I don't know much about it.

Socionics explains intertype relationships which is something that MBTI doesn't go over, which is why many people find socionics useful to study.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

We're both PhD students hence working on entirely different projects.

When researching PhD at the very last minute before I accepted the scholarship, I found out that one of the fundamental keys to success is to have good social relations with the people who work around you. Well, all the PhD drop out stories generally involve an unfriendly work environment. Further more, I have just moved cities and my friends live in the previous one. One and half hours drive, ehh. Making friends in this city is somewhat important.

I am also having some cultural issues regarding body language. Apparently I am cold. Everyone is from everywhere else in the world. I am the only Australian in the office.

Well if you insinst on interaction, maybe discerning what to avoid and what they prefer would help. Though it should be emphasized that you get to know her on a personal level.

Some traits of people I know as ISFJ:
o Impatient with drawn-out ideas
o (Believe) They devote more effort than others, they secretly expect to be appreciated
o Dislike it when (their) plans are interrupted and people aren't on time
o On edge / don't like surprises
o Dislike others'(people they don't like) attempts to approach them, can be passive-aggressive about it
o Can be passive-aggressive in general about whatever made them upset/angry.
o Tend towards standardized ethics(not necessarily inherently ethical / egoistic morality).
o Occasionally get too emotional and act on impulses

During the initiating phase, like I said, it's best to be formal and remain independent.

 

[pjoa09]

Maybe if you tore it down to functions you'd see that the difference is not apples and oranges. The difference is apples and uranium deposits.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

Maybe if you tore it down to functions you'd see that the difference is not apples and oranges. The difference is apples and uranium deposits.

She is uranium?

 

[AureliaSeverina]

I think cooperation is possible through caution, consideration, and reservation. Be aware of what kind of expectations you'll have of her that she might not understand.

I'll second that. I'm an INTJ and have an ISFJ colleague who smothers me with unwarranted affection. She's really nice and I do like her .... from a safe distance.
I can have a meaningful conversation with her once in a while, but when she's got some emotional problem I give her unsolicited Te advice and it shocks her. She always tries to involve me in group situations or recommends that I should visit this and that attraction just because she has just done so. Nightmare.
I find most of socionics annoyingly pessimistic and deterministic, but that Super-Ego relationship does seem to describe ISJF+INTJ rather well.

 

[pjoa09]

She is uranium?

If you break it down, INTJ = Ni Te Se Fi , ISFJ= Si Fe Ne Ti , I can obviously list out the rest of the very inferior functions but that would be quite pointless.

As you can see, she can't comprehend the way you are and you can't comprehend the way she is.

It might invoke a sense of superiority and I am a bit skeptical of 'population numbers' ,but it seems pretty agreeable when I say there are more ISFJs than INTJs. Hence, apples and uranium deposits.

I'd agree with the fact that ISFJs are nice people to meet but you will never meet ground on anything.

 

[AureliaSeverina]

If you break it down, INTJ = Ni Te Se Fi , ISFJ= Si Fe Ne Ti , I can obviously list out the rest of the very inferior functions but that would be quite pointless.

Shouldn't that be: INTJ= Ni Te Fi Si, ISFJ= Si Fe Ti Ne ????

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

I'll second that. I'm an INTJ and have an ISFJ colleague who smothers me with unwarranted affection. She's really nice and I do like her .... from a safe distance.
I can have a meaningful conversation with her once in a while, but when she's got some emotional problem I give her unsolicited Te advice and it shocks her. She always tries to involve me in group situations or recommends that I should visit this and that attraction just because she has just done so. Nightmare.
I find most of socionics annoyingly pessimistic and deterministic, but that Super-Ego relationship does seem to describe ISJF+INTJ rather well.

Most of the things you're mentioning here don't particularly phase me. I have learned the basics on interacting with people. For example, when someone has a problem, unless they specifically ask what to do, I just listen to them complain. lol? ^_^

Oddly enough, I am the one organizing group activities at various attractions like paintball or attending a play.

So far there is no unwarranted affection or any affection beyond the normal. Though, there is the many occasions where she asks me what I am feeling: Are you bored? Am I boring you? I am annoying you? Why are your eyes red; are you upset?

Generally, if it is not a serious matter, I can be eccentric and hold conversations with people. As in, more complex and convoluted small talk. This does not work with her. She simply states something like "You don't actually think this way." The always brilliant "You're terrible at acting like something you're not." My modus operandi completely disrupted. Ergo, communication problems. I was reduced to simple formal interactions.

As you can see, she can't comprehend the way you are and you can't comprehend the way she is.

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

I will keep things cordial. ^_^

 

[pjoa09]

Shouldn't that be: INTJ= Ni Te Fi Si, ISFJ= Si Fe Ti Ne ????

my bad, actually, I am not sure! haha fuck.

Te Ni Fi Se and Fe Si Ti Ne would more accurate. Can't have two introverted functions as dominant.

The point is that it will be pointless to try to come on the same grounds.

 

[Trope]

my bad, actually, I am not sure! haha fuck.

Te Ni Fi Se and Fe Si Ti Ne would more accurate. Can't have two introverted functions as dominant.

The point is that it will be pointless to try to come on the same grounds.

You had it nearly right the first time. What you have listed here denote primarily extroverted types. Your initial points stand, but the texbook order would be more like--Ni Te Fi Se and Si Fe Ti Ne, respectively.

 

[pjoa09]

You had it nearly right the first time. What you have listed here denote primarily extroverted types. Your initial points stand, but the texbook order would be more like--Ni Te Fi Se and Si Fe Ti Ne, respectively.

Yeap, your order is correct.



Didn't know J flipped stuff.

 

[AureliaSeverina]

You had it nearly right the first time. What you have listed here denote primarily extroverted types. Your initial points stand, but the texbook order would be more like--Ni Te Fi Se and Si Fe Ti Ne, respectively.

Isn't that what I said?

@pjoa09 J means that your decision making function is extroverted (Te for INTJ, Fe for ISFJ). If you are an introvert, your dominant function has to be introverted. So that will be the other middle letter: N, S. So we get
Ni-Te for INTJ and Si-Fe for ISFJ.
The inferior function is the opposite of the dominant, as in... it's the other half of the dimension of the dominant and with opposite orientation.

--> Ni - Te- .....- Se for INTJ
--> Si - Fe - ..... Ne for ISFJ
Then fill in the tertiary: it's whatever is missing and has the same orientation as the dominant

Ni - Te - Fi - Se for INTJ
Si - Fe - Te - Ne for ISFJ

There is some debate as to the orientation of the tertiary, but this is the most common version.

For a perceiver, it's the information gathering function that's extroverted.
So that gives us Ne for an INTP. But because an INTP is an introvert Ne can't be his dominant function. So his dominant is the other middle letter
--> Ti - Ne - ......- Fe ----> Ti-Ne-Si-Fe

@ProxyAmenRa , I suppose keeping it to formal interaction is the best way to deal with this. Does she even know you well enough to make those kinds of comments? brrrrrrr
Hum, oddly enough, I'm planning a socialising event on which I need some advice but it's a convoluted story. I'll start a thread about it.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

@AureliaSeverina

I suppose keeping it to formal interaction is the best way to deal with this. Does she even know you well enough to make those kinds of comments? brrrrrrr

She states that she does. I don't have enough information to make a determination of whether or not she does. I am a pretty open person...

 

[pjoa09]

Isn't that what I said?

You made a small typo. "INTJ= Ni Te Fi Si"

@pjoa09 J means that your decision making function is extroverted (Te for INTJ, Fe for ISFJ). If you are an introvert, your dominant function has to be introverted. So that will be the other middle letter: N, S. So we get
Ni-Te for INTJ and Si-Fe for ISFJ.
The inferior function is the opposite of the dominant, as in... it's the other half of the dimension of the dominant and with opposite orientation.

--> Ni - Te- .....- Se for INTJ
--> Si - Fe - ..... Ne for ISFJ
Then fill in the tertiary: it's whatever is missing and has the same orientation as the dominant

Ni - Te - Fi - Se for INTJ
Si - Fe - Te - Ne for ISFJ

There is some debate as to the orientation of the tertiary, but this is the most common version.

For a perceiver, it's the information gathering function that's extroverted.
So that gives us Ne for an INTP. But because an INTP is an introvert Ne can't be his dominant function. So his dominant is the other middle letter
--> Ti - Ne - ......- Fe ----> Ti-Ne-Si-Fe

That is exactly where I screwed up. I just read on perceivers. Mostly because that was all I was concerned with, didn't bother with the judgmental types.

I had a misunderstanding with which function was dominant with judgmental types. For example, INTJ vs INTP (I know, not close at all) but for INTP its Ti that is dominant. For INTJ it is Ni that is dominant. I always presumed they would be Te dominant, which now I know is wrong.

Introverted function is dominant with introverts and extroverted function is dominant with extroverts. Which actually makes sense.

 

[AureliaSeverina]

You made a small typo. "INTJ= Ni Te Fi Si"

Oops, sorry... lol... typical INTJ slopiness

Yep, it' ENTJs who are Te dominant but I can even see how an INTJ would come across as Te dominant to you lot. Whenever I talk to an INTP I invariably spout keywords like "plan", "strategy" etc. (Te). I don't do that when I talk to other types. But that's because Ni doesn't easily translate into spoken language, it just comes out all garbled or as a meandering stream of consciousness.
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if my INTP friend had mistaken me for some species of extravert for a while.

 

[AureliaSeverina]

@AureliaSeverina



She states that she does. I don't have enough information to make a determination of whether or not she does. I am a pretty open person...

Hum.... I read somewhere on another forum that if an ISFJ bothers you, you should shout your explanations at them in a really dramatic and emotional way (even if you're not feeling any emotions) because they don't understand INTJs otherwise. Apparently that helps them understand things and doesn't shock them too much. Haven't tried it myself, though, I just try evasive manoeuvers.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

Hum.... I read somewhere on another forum that if an ISFJ bothers you, you should shout your explanations at them in a really dramatic and emotional way (even if you're not feeling any emotions) because they don't understand INTJs otherwise. Apparently that helps them understand things and doesn't shock them too much. Haven't tried it myself, though, I just try evasive manoeuvers.

Absolutely hilarious.

 

[AureliaSeverina]

I just remembered this: It was an ISFJ who said this herself!

 

[pjoa09]

Oops, sorry... lol... typical INTJ slopiness

Yep, it' ENTJs who are Te dominant but I can even see how an INTJ would come across as Te dominant to you lot. Whenever I talk to an INTP I invariably spout keywords like "plan", "strategy" etc. (Te). I don't do that when I talk to other types. But that's because Ni doesn't easily translate into spoken language, it just comes out all garbled or as a meandering stream of consciousness.
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if my INTP friend had mistaken me for some species of extravert for a while.

Funny, I experience the same thing but with Ti . A bombardment of evaluations of different events,things, decisions, or people. If I am ever asked about my decisions I just spew out words at them and in irritation they agree or walk off. A few only can and bother to understand.

 

[AureliaSeverina]

Funny, I experience the same thing but with Ti . A bombardment of evaluations of different events,things, decisions, or people. If I am ever asked about my decisions I just spew out words at them and in irritation they agree or walk off. A few only can and bother to understand.

Yep... I read somewhere about this, forget where but if I remember I'll let you know. It said that INTPs never know how much information the other person needs about their thought process. Because INTPs hate redundancies they just give an abstract summary and it's too condensed for other people to understand. LOL, sometimes my INTP friend says something and then I repeat it in my own words and then I notice that I just said exactly the same as him. It must be exasperated for him

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

I have realized my mistakes. I will keep our interactions strictly formal. AND I will stop giving her lifts in my car if we're happen to be going to and from the same location. Clarification: We live near each other. Generosity is always a bad concept in the long run.

 

[AureliaSeverina]

Good thinking.
You know, lots of times I worry that I will 'hurt' those kind of people accidentally if I let them get too close and then have to jettison them later if it gets too much. Most of the time it's only in my imagination because I'm not half as important to them as I think I am. It's only their way of expressing themselves that makes me think that. For them that's how they talk to just about anyone they slightly know, but to me it sounds like I'm so special to them and that creeps me out because I don't know how it happened.
I did have to scare of two extremely clingy and unhealthy ISFJs in my time, but when I actually mustered up the courage to do it they were like "OK, fine, I'll find a new friend then, it's not like I don't know any other people." They did make a drama, but they went off me almost as quickly as they had latched on to me.
Also, other people have these dramas all the time. I think INTJs try hard too control the situation and always try to make a relationship work somehow and blame themselves if it goes pearshaped. But sometimes it just wasn't meant to be.
Just see how she reacts if you keep her at a distance for a while. Unless she's an unhealthy ISFJ you should still get on well on a superficial level and no harm done.

 

[intpz]

Haven't read all the posts, but that's a fucked up situation. I'd recommend trying to not speak to her too much, and keep it strictly work-related, let her know that you won't get close to her. I think that's what I would do... Otherwise I'd get annoyed a lot and would have a lot of conflicts...

 

[kristinjenson123]

This intertype relations chart shows INTJ ISFJ relations are those of superego. That might be the problem in you not getting each other.

yeah I have also try to visit but this is not opening to my side !

 

[TriflinThomas]

She said I was cold.

Thanks for the input. I think I just need to be more "relaxed" around her. Being that she works less than 2 meters away from me, I am going to have to be more relaxed for most of the day.

Edit:

Ohh god, she was writing behind me reading what I was writing above.

FML

That's what she gets. I live with an isfj and they are a nosy bunch, then they get mad when they find out something they weren't supposed to. They're like those idiots in scary movies who stick their hand in a mysterious hole/crevice and get it ripped off.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

That's what she gets. I live with an isfj and they are a nosy bunch, then they get mad when they find out something they weren't supposed to. They're like those idiots in scary movies who stick their hand in a mysterious hole/crevice and get it ripped off.

I can empathize. This one that I work next to has revealed herself to be a stuck up bitch who is not capable of cordial interaction. In addition, it seems as so she is incapable of having a good time. This is from a general observation from the last two events I organised. She will no longer be invited to any other events.

For a personality type that is supposed to be concerned with appealing to social norms and rituals, they seem to be quite terrible at it.

 

[~~~]

How is the ISFJ handling the PhD? Does it fit well with them?

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

How is the ISFJ handling the PhD? Does it fit well with them?

Her PhD is progressing reasonably. I judging this on that she works quite an amount.

I have not actually read or heard any of the work that she has done because any attempts in the past where people have asked her about it, she refused to speak.

 

[TriflinThomas]

The one that I work next to has revealed herself to be a stuck up bitch who is not capable of cordial interaction. In addition, it seems as so she is incapable of having a good time.

So true -________-

 

[Reluctantly]

Hum.... I read somewhere on another forum that if an ISFJ bothers you, you should shout your explanations at them in a really dramatic and emotional way (even if you're not feeling any emotions) because they don't understand INTJs otherwise. Apparently that helps them understand things and doesn't shock them too much. Haven't tried it myself, though, I just try evasive manoeuvers.

I LOVE THIS. It's direct and gets to the core of the matter, instead of playing intuitive mind games or upholding social facades (or at least it feels that way).

That's what she gets. I live with an isfj and they are a nosy bunch, then they get mad when they find out something they weren't supposed to. They're like those idiots in scary movies who stick their hand in a mysterious hole/crevice and get it ripped off.

Heh, and what wasn't she supposed to know?
If it's that you didn't want her to know something negative/harmful relating to herself, she has a right to be mad, especially if you wanted to hide it, even if she was nosy. But I guess then you'd both be in the wrong.
If it's that you didn't want her to judge you, then she's probably just a stupid paranoid person and it isn't defining of the type.
If it's something else, then perhaps you could share?

 

[TriflinThomas]

Heh, and what wasn't she supposed to know?
If it's that you didn't want her to know something negative/harmful relating to herself, she has a right to be mad, especially if you wanted to hide it, even if she was nosy. But I guess then you'd both be in the wrong.
If it's that you didn't want her to judge you, then she's probably just a stupid paranoid person and it isn't defining of the type.
If it's something else, then perhaps you could share?

She constantly looks through my bank account, she's opened my mail (and actually stole something I ordered because she didn't agree with it).

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

She constantly looks through my bank account, she's opened my mail (and actually stole something I ordered because she didn't agree with it).

Girlfriend?