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Auburn

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@ Decaf - thank you for those words, your posts really show me how naive I am. i've missed them quite a bit. i do have questions of my own but i think i might just wait...

*sits in the corner and takes notes*


edit: (sorry, couldn't resist ^^; )

Decaf, what you say in regards to Fe is extremely true in me, sadly even the parts about promises being rather shallow. I've long been wondering whether this would also mean that my Fe expressions are "fake" in regards to my interactions with people. I detest the idea of not being genuine, but I feel as if my use of Fe may just be that. could it be?
 

Decaf

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sadly even the parts about promises being rather shallow.

Yes... this has been a painful lesson for me too.

I've long been wondering whether this would also mean that my Fe expressions are "fake" in regards to my interactions with people. I detest the idea of not being genuine, but I feel as if my use of Fe may just be that. could it be?

Ah, efficiency, the double edged sword. When confronted with a problem that engages our Ti we are terrific at formulating efficient courses of action that take a lot of variables into consideration. Our Fe function is like Ti's little brother trying to do what his big brother can do, except he can't help but do it in an immature way. We respond to emotional content with our Fe function because it has proven that its chameleon talent is very useful in those situations. Then when it comes to resolving the problem it stumbles, but pushes on foolishly. We try to handle the situation handily by making promises that would solve the problem without having the awareness or more mature functions have as to what will and won't work as a solution.

Feeling in general is not as good as thinking at determining the more effective and/or practical solution, but its much better at figuring out what solution is going to be more acceptable to the people involved. If INTPs DIDN'T make infeasible promises, I'd be surprised.

Our thinking self looks at the bad situation his little brother got him into and treats it with disrespect. He doesn't take those promises and integrate them into the greater whole and they get lost. They may be remembered, but only in moments of emotional content.

Alright, its dinner time, so I'll get back to this tomorrow.
 

shatterspike1

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I've been reading Decaf's distinctions between Fe and Fi, and I'm definitely on the Introverted side of feeling. I have Sympathy, not Empathy. I don't feel another's pain, I see their pain and feel a pain of my own.

It's like the Ti and Fi are at war with one another, sometimes, in my head. Mostly though, it seems like my internal world has to be both logical and moral, but it can't be just one.
 

brain enclosed in flesh

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Something I wanted to add in regard to empathy for animals/anthropomorphism:

I don't believe empathy for animals is anthropomorphism. We are animals as well; I believe there is a shared understanding of feeling between us, just as we have with fellow humans. For example, we can tell when an animal is afraid by reading its body language, the noises it makes, just as we can tell when a person is afraid. It is not merely a projection of our feelings on to a non-sentient being. There is scientific evidence to back this up- fluctuation in neurochemical levels similar to our own, detailed studies of animal behavior, etc.

This has always seemed like a no-brainer to me- animals exhibit a range of emotions (perhaps not as varied as ours, but still, a range), and we can relate to them. We are not their masters, but merely co-inhabitors of the same planet. I haven't read it yet, but I have heard that Temple Grandin's book, Animals in Translation, is a good exploration into the nature of animal feelings. (I read her book, Thinking in Pictures, and found it fascinating.)

Check out this article which proposes that other animals also feel empathy:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=do-animals-feel-empathy
 

snowqueen

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I hadn't been keeping up with this conversation - but having read through it's really fascinating - thanks Decaf - now I realise why you were summoned to rise again in the forum! Your analysis is really helpful.

How I would put it:

In myself I am an INFP. To the outside world, I display as an INTP. I'll explain:

Someone kills a bee. How I feel inside: "You bastard. What the hell did that bee ever do to you? He is a being of value and you destroyed him for no good reason. I wish I could punch you in the stomach, unfeeling blob of disgustingness."

What I say: "You know, bees are essential to anything that requires pollination. You shouldn't kill them because they play an important role in the natural world."

Exception: I am interacting with an xxTJ type. I become the feelingest feelie on the planet (at least in my eyes). Afterwards I'm a little disgusted with myself but it is an automatic response I can't control. I guess this would fall in line with what you say about negative energy, because that's pretty much how I feel as well.

So yeah, not much new here. But I can relate.

Yes, Brain - we were definitely separated at birth!!!

The difference between Fe and Fi is setting. Have you ever met an extraordinarily friendly person who becomes a complete flake the moment you're not in front of them or talking on the phone? That's Fe. It provides a strong sense of empathy to the possessor while the interaction is going on, but has no active role for any relationship that isn't effecting their immediate environment.

Heh - that's me to a T. It's always puzzled me how I can be so warm and engaging while someone's around and then it all dissolves back into neutral chaos when they're gone.
 

Beat Mango

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Heh - that's me to a T. It's always puzzled me how I can be so warm and engaging while someone's around and then it all dissolves back into neutral chaos when they're gone.

I can't understand that, I am the complete opposite. I become aware of my feelings afterwards. There's always a delay to my emotional reaction, whether its a few seconds, a few hours or maybe even a few days.
 

snowqueen

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I can't understand that, I am the complete opposite. I become aware of my feelings afterwards. There's always a delay to my emotional reaction, whether its a few seconds, a few hours or maybe even a few days.

I didn't say I was aware of my feelings - just that I can 'do' warm and engaging. Often I don't realise how irritated I am with the person till later, for example.

One of the things I've realised about Fe and low Fi is that it explains my incapacity for self-soothing once I become distressed - of course I can't 'construct' my emotions in the way I can my thoughts. I can't resolve them. I can only be exhausted or get someone else to help me.
 

nightowl

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I've long been wondering whether this would also mean that my Fe expressions are "fake" in regards to my interactions with people. I detest the idea of not being genuine, but I feel as if my use of Fe may just be that. could it be?

Thoughts on Fe and how it relates to INTP's, INXP's and INFP's on my mind a great deal the last couple of days due to both my continuing journey in MBTI-land to see where "home" is as well as a personal situation.

Auburn, from what I've studied as well as Decaf's very insightful and helpful comments, would "auto-pilot" be applicable or a better term as opposed to "fake" which has more negative connotations? It seems to me that "fake" is a very strong word...although, let's be real here, there are times we do have to fake being polite in some situations.

Based on study as well as the feedback here, could we also describe Fe for the INTP as an "emotional reflex" or "social/interpersonal emotional reflex"?

Thus, depending on multiple factors including chronological age, maturity of Fe, the situation at hand, blah, blah, the degree of influence and control the INTP has over the "reflex" Fe will vary. Not to mention basics such as fatigue, hunger, etc.

Okay, gang, feedback, please....have more ideas to throw out on Fe and Fi if you all are game, but do you think any of these so far have merit?
 

Decaf

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I like that. I think "autopilot" is an excellent description for how it feels, because its not until afterwards we even realize how ridiculous or unappealing a promise we made is. The ironic part is that I believe INTPs are naturally good negotiators when they are knowledgeable, but as always feelings are our kryptonite.
 

brain enclosed in flesh

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Yes, I would agree on autopilot vs. fake.

People who are 'fake' seem to be aware that they are being so- like it's a conscious manipulation to get what they want or to be perceived in a particular way. I know that for me it just happens, and I am typically unaware of how I am behaving until later, when say my husband points it out to me or when the person I've been talking to calls me and reminds me that I promised to do one thing or another. Often it makes me even more hesitant to be social in the future (as if I need more reasons), because it's like I never know how exactly I'll behave, how others will interpret my words or actions, or what I'll agree to do and later regret.

Although sometimes I am successful and am quite good at interacting. Regardless, I find it draining, because I've expended all of my energy doing what others seem to do naturally. It's almost like a social hangover.
 

Agent Intellect

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i have recently finished reading the book "How We Decide" by Jonah Lehrer, and of course i couldn't help but think about the brain in terms of MBTI. what it essentially says in the book is that our emotional decision making is the stuff that happens behind the scenes, those decisions we're constantly making all throughout the day without having to "think" about it. and, our rational decision making is the stuff that has to be consciously thought about: reasoning and logic. this is the stuff that takes a bit of mulling over in the head, the decison making that needs more input before a conclusion can be made.

what i've been thinking is that introverted judging functions are more of the rational decision making while extroverted judging functions are made in more of the emotional part of the brain. of course, we'd have to drop the preconceived notion that F = emotions and T = logic.

Ti and Fi seem to be more of a conscious way of decision making, something that has to be done in the forefront of the mind. Ti seems self explanatory, but Fi could be said to be a rational way of thinking, just a different approach to it. on the other hand, Te and Fe seem to happen automatically. this is the decision making that happens automatically, "behind the scenes" and therefore becomes extroverted as there is no conscious thought doubting or internalizing the judgement.

for me, i could say that Ti is highly developed because when i'm confronted with a new situation, my automatic response is to try to make sense of it, to analyze it and put it "in order". then Fe is the way the world see's me, as far as the whole chameleon affect, and this is my emotional decision making, because it doesn't take any conscious effort, it simply just happens.

for an INFP, it would be opposite. someone else seemed to say it best, inside they are thinking with the Fi (what an asshole for killing the bee) but the outside world see's the automatic response of Te (how unreasonable of you to kill that bee). such a response didn't take any prior planning or conscious thought, it was the emotional decision making that brought that out.

of course, in this way, each of the functions are inseperable: everybody has all of them, perhaps just developed differently, but working together as a complex system. one cannot describe one function without taking its interaction with all of the other functions into consideration. i think the idea of trying to define one function as a seperate part of the greater whole is reductionist dogma: you can't learn how a clock works by studying one individual gear from it.

as usual, i can't help but think about how the brains of the different 'types' differ from each other. are introverts (people with dominant introverted functions, particularly introverted judging functions) people that have larger prefrontal cortex? the slow process of rational decision making could certainly account for a "P's" seemingly slow and procrastinating demeanor. the need to have all the facts in cause them not to trust their hunches, which make them seem much more uncertain and neutral.

and people with dominant extroverted judging functions could be said to be more emotional (once again, dropping the preconceived notion of what emotional means) decison makers, being the ones that do things without having to mull it over and wait for further input to make decisions. they're generally the ones that tend to "call it as they see it", because they extrovert that decision making. they're more apt to follow intuition (not the MBTI function sense of the word) and hunches. this is how they can be certain of things before all the facts are in.

of course, this is just my own musings, i could be way off.
 

Beat Mango

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^ I haven't read much on MBTI, in fact most of what I know I read on this forum, but that makes sense to me. I think understanding decision making is crucial in understanding human behaviour, after all, everything we do could be construed as a decision of some sort. I know me personally, in my extraverted moments, I am certainly extraverting my decision making (to use your term) and am kind of on autopilot. It's hard to imagine being fully conscious (by that I mean fully engaged with my thoughts, giving every decision rational thought) and extraverting at the same time (I certainly agree with Nietzsche that "all action requires forgetting"). With extraversion, there seems to be a more direct interaction with the world, whereas introversion requires a kind of filtering of the world.
 

Liontiger

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...we'd have to drop the preconceived notion that F = emotions and T = logic.

I strongly agree with that. My best friend is an F (ENFP) and she's very unemotional. I never see her cry, she scoffs at people who do, and she's not very sympathetic. (Which is unusual because I have another ENFP friend who's always a wreck).

And yay for finding your type ^^
 

Decaf

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Congrats! And what about "Rational Pathos"? You may not be an INTP, but you've more than earned the adjective. I hope the INFP forum doesn't take you away from us :P
 

fullerene

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^^agreed (especially because by all accounts I've heard elsewhere, it sucks :p)

I was talking to one of my friends the other day, and while I forget whether they're linked earlier in this thread or not, they sealed it for him, so I'll post them anyway. I don't wanna look through all 7 pages to try to find em.

http://www.personalitypathways.com/dom-fi.html
http://www.personalitypathways.com/dom-ti.html

He's a really sciency/mathematical INFP, but he read the first paragraph of the dom-fi page and said "this thing just describes my life!"
 

snowqueen

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Well congratulations - but I'm amazed -having read those descriptions I'm definitely not INFP and very definitely INTP - but yet we find ourselves feeling so very much alike! How very odd and intriguing. But I do have to say that you 'sound' like a much quieter person irl than I am so maybe the differences would be me more obvious there.


http://www.personalitypathways.com/dom-fi.html
http://www.personalitypathways.com/dom-ti.html

He's a really sciency/mathematical INFP, but he read the first paragraph of the dom-fi page and said "this thing just describes my life!"

I read it and thought - nope not really like me. The dom-ti fit me to a T!!

Useful sites though = thanks both of you for posting them.
 

brain enclosed in flesh

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Yeah, I think a lot of people don't quite get the INFP (including INFPs).

I would wager to say that INFPs are the intellectual Fs. My first big 'aha' was what agent intellect said about Te being the INFPs way of presenting themselves- a social front of sorts. I imagine that as INFPs get older this becomes more and more apparent, which may give people (ourselves included) the impression that we are Ts. Also, as I've matured my feelings are no longer so intense- I would say that the typical description of an INFP fit me until I hit my 30s. But I also was raised in a highly intellectual family and my brother who I worshiped as a child is an INTP so I imagine that has influenced me.

Something about myself, and something I suspect of most INFPs. I'm pretty dang reserved and I don't like talking about my feelings. Extraverted feeling feels unnatural and typically creeps me out. I think the INFPs at global chatter kind of relish in their feelingness or something so it gives a false impression of how INFPs are.

So don't worry. I won't be heading there.

Oh, and Snow Queen- yes, I think we have much in common, but I would say there are definitely differences. For example, your theoretical/ philosophical posts. I've got to be honest, my eyes kind of glaze over when I attempt to read them. And I can read fiction (or anything I'm truly interested in, typically because it somehow pertains to me) without my mind wandering, but I've tried to read Ecce Homo by Nietzsche multiple times and I have to reread each paragraph because it's guaranteed that I will be thinking about something else.

Another thing- being a fiction writer I have this natural tendency to soak up other people's personalities. I will find myself thinking and behaving in ways which are probably atypical of me. It's my way of understanding and perceiving things from other points of view, I guess. I've been writing from the point of view of a teenage boy (most decidedly an INTP) for the last year and I think it rubbed off.
 

Liontiger

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Another thing- being a fiction writer I have this natural tendency to soak up other people's personalities. I will find myself thinking and behaving in ways which are probably atypical of me. It's my way of understanding and perceiving things from other points of view, I guess. I've been writing from the point of view of a teenage boy (most decidedly an INTP) for the last year and I think it rubbed off.

Wow, I have definitely experienced this. Being into many tv show/movie/book fandoms, I used to take on the mannerisms of my favorite characters. For example, words would become more prominent in my vocabulary or I would use certain hand gestures. The scary part came when I began to take on a few of the characters' beliefs. When I realized this a few years ago, I was concerned that I wouldn't be able to recognize the difference between myself and what I had absorbed.
 

fullerene

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saw that one. I remember thinking it was good, until about 3/4 down. Somewhere around there, I felt like he fell into an "ahh those INFPs... they're almost perfect. Now if only they could overcome that weakness of being unable to detach themselves from their feelings..." kind of tone.
 

shatterspike1

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Is it a problem if I go through the entire description thinking "Both"?
 

brain enclosed in flesh

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saw that one. I remember thinking it was good, until about 3/4 down. Somewhere around there, I felt like he fell into an "ahh those INFPs... they're almost perfect. Now if only they could overcome that weakness of being unable to detach themselves from their feelings..." kind of tone.

Yeah, I agree with you. I think the 'experts' don't seem to entirely understand that INFPs can use their introverted feelings to view things objectively, in a way. By this I mean we kind of work our way into both sides, feel them (and think about them) to get their essence, and then reach a conclusion. We do a lot of 'putting ourselves into someone else's shoes' to understand. Feeling can be pretty 'brainy' and logical, too. I think the main thing is that we are just as capable as reading the data and interpreting it, but we always put our own personal spin on it to reach a conclusion.
 

brain enclosed in flesh

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Oh, and shatterspike- of course it's not a problem. It's not like we are all compartmentalized beings. Also, I think a lot of these descriptions are written as if we remain static all of our lives. But I guess the thing is how does your mind tend to work the most.
 

nightowl

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Hi, Brain! Congrats!

Myself, I am still confused! Have been giving more thought and study on Fe and Te as the inferior functions for INTP and INFP. Sagewolf and Agent Intellect's posts included them. It may very well be that determining the inferior function of an INXP is crucial in making a final decision.

The term "autopilot" appears to have been well received. Auburn, from what you wrote, your Fe interactions are genuine...but...very in the moment as Decaf explained so well. Indeed, is this not why others may be confused, etc. with INTP's and their promises afterwards because they correctly perceived the interaction as genuine (not fake)?

Fi--Many definitions and decriptions. Based on values, not emotions! The best way I can decribe it is as a complex internal compass keeping Fi on course and in constant use. When there is more than minor deviation from the "correct" course (remember values will vary from person to person), the compass will indicate the severity of the misdirection. What is probably confusing to many when Fi is discussed is that there is a very distinct "vibe" or "feel" to it for the INFP. A very distinct disharmony or friction that is truly difficult to describe in words. In Paul James' INTP profile, he mentions INTP's "...feel an unpleasant sense of disharmony whenever a music style clashes with their emotional state." Perhaps that is something with which you INTP's could identify with when an INFP talks about something "not feeling right." For me, it is feeling a sensation, not an emotion.

Think of driving or riding in a car. You can feel when the road surface changes, a tire going flat, veering into another lane or off the side of the road, mechanical problems, etc.

Does this help any?
 

nightowl

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Yeah, I agree with you. I think the 'experts' don't seem to entirely understand that INFPs can use their introverted feelings to view things objectively, in a way. By this I mean we kind of work our way into both sides, feel them (and think about them) to get their essence, and then reach a conclusion. We do a lot of 'putting ourselves into someone else's shoes' to understand. Feeling can be pretty 'brainy' and logical, too. I think the main thing is that we are just as capable as reading the data and interpreting it, but we always put our own personal spin on it to reach a conclusion.

Brain, this is excellent!
 

Jennywocky

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... What is probably confusing to many when Fi is discussed is that there is a very distinct "vibe" or "feel" to it for the INFP. A very distinct disharmony or friction that is truly difficult to describe in words. In Paul James' INTP profile, he mentions INTP's "...feel an unpleasant sense of disharmony whenever a music style clashes with their emotional state." Perhaps that is something with which you INTP's could identify with when an INFP talks about something "not feeling right." For me, it is feeling a sensation, not an emotion.

Think of driving or riding in a car. You can feel when the road surface changes, a tire going flat, veering into another lane or off the side of the road, mechanical problems, etc.

Good metaphor. :) Yes I would imagine it to be the same sense of disorientation or 'unrightness' in regards to making particular choices, where the cumulative outcome/system/sense of awareness has some unbalancing elements in it.
 

nightowl

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Thanks, Jennywocky!

In medical environments, current teaching and practice is not to use the word "agitated" in describing a patient's behaviors because it is such a blanket term and can be applied to so many different and specific behaviors. That is how I am starting to regard "feeling" and "feelings."
 

snowqueen

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Yeah, I agree with you. I think the 'experts' don't seem to entirely understand that INFPs can use their introverted feelings to view things objectively, in a way. By this I mean we kind of work our way into both sides, feel them (and think about them) to get their essence, and then reach a conclusion. We do a lot of 'putting ourselves into someone else's shoes' to understand. Feeling can be pretty 'brainy' and logical, too. I think the main thing is that we are just as capable as reading the data and interpreting it, but we always put our own personal spin on it to reach a conclusion.

I do a lot of this but I really didn't resonate with the INFP description at all! I think I would really like to be an INFP but I am definitely INTP. Possibly working in mental health has developed my Fi because I don't think I put myself into someone else's shoes before then. Now I do it prety regularly but it is still a pretty intellectual activity.

You glaze over at my theoretical posts? ...sob :(

only kidding - I still love you! Even more now you're an INFP
 

brain enclosed in flesh

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In Paul James' INTP profile, he mentions INTP's "...feel an unpleasant sense of disharmony whenever a music style clashes with their emotional state." Perhaps that is something with which you INTP's could identify with when an INFP talks about something "not feeling right." For me, it is feeling a sensation, not an emotion.

Absolutely. Very well put. That's the problem with the 'feeling' term. People automatically think it means crying and mania. It's more like sunlight in your eyes or loud irritating music when something isn't working- or sunlight on your back and your favorite song suddenly playing when it is- more like the standard definition of intuition.

If that makes sense. (And thanks, nightowl.)

Snow Queen, I would say putting myself in someone else's shoes can be an intellectual activity. Sometimes I most decidedly have to force it, especially if someone wrongs me for some reason I don't understand and I'm trying to figure out why. (And I typically fail at this. I think it might switch into extraverted feeling a bit at this point.) Often I just do it automatically, especially with people or animals or oceans or trees that I feel a connection with. I would say INFPs are kind of the kings and queens of the metaphor. If we put something, or people, into a context we can relate to, it helps us to understand. But some people we will never be able to understand and it is incredibly frustrating and messes with our inner harmony. (I hate speaking in a 'we' fashion, but it seems easiest, although I may just be speaking about me here.)

I'm glad you still like me, by the way. I wish it were easier for me to read your theoretical posts, believe me. Just as I wish it were easier for me to understand geometry and physics. (Oh, and I like you, too.)

I feel like we're having a love-in around here at the moment. :p
 
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i think My INFP-ness is highly probable
 

RubberDucky451

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I'm a INTP and my sister is an INFP we get along really well.
 
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supposed to be the most likely type for friendship/even relationships (not with your sister :D)

but definately friendships, INFPs like INTPs (vice/versa) for some reason

(for me XNFP = perfect woman)
 

echoplex

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Yep, INFPs, just judging by type descriptions, are awesome. They seem to understand the emotional nuances of things really well. They really know how to say the right thing to convey a feeling.
 
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erm...

"INFPs have a need for perfection in connection with their personal values. They become frustrated with those who dwell on trivialities.

INFPs need a purpose beyond the paycheck. They become burned out easily if their job does not fit their value system; they may not feel good enough about what they have achieved and, as a result, may undervalue themselves and their contributions.

As teens, INFPs may have a bit of a rebellious streak. They may argue with those who hold different values than they do. They are also likely to have a small, close set of friends with whom they share good times. In the comfort of those close relationships, they can relax and are often quite entertaining, since they see the world in a different and special way. Their sense of humour is readily apparent. However, unless an INFP finds an appreciation for his or her uniqueness and personal values, he or she may feel like an odd person out.

As teens, INFPs may have a bit of a rebellious streak. They may argue with those who hold different values than they do. They are also likely to have a small, close set of friends with whom they share good times. In the comfort of those close relationships, they can relax and are often quite entertaining, since they see the world in a different and special way. Their sense of humour is readily apparent. However, unless an INFP finds an appreciation for his or her uniqueness and personal values, he or she may feel like an odd person out."


but many INTP traits fit too. maybe i am just an INFP who has developed hard skin facades (managing to even fool myself.) i do like to emotionally connect and let my feelings out. i think i have a problems with school because it feels wrong to me, goes against who i am. also my hopes and dreams seem very idealistic (my soul flying free etc)
 
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i sound VERY similar to you :)
 
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(i am 15 :D)

unless you weren't talking about me....
 
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ooh, what is it about?!
 

brain enclosed in flesh

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ooh, what is it about?!

a 17 yr old who does extemporaneous speaking competitively (don't know if they have that in the UK- you have half an hour to compose speeches on current events and then you present the speech to a judge.) Of course he meets this girl at a terrible party (because this is a book about a 17 yr old) and he spends most of their relationship comparing her to Virgil in Dante's Divine Comedy vs actually taking a part in the relationship. Meanwhile, she's convinced that Che Guevara, Joan of Arc, and Salvador Dali are communicating with her via dreams, telling her that she is destined to convert the masses away from bad art, bad music, etc.

I'll have you know this is the most I have told anyone about this book, including my husband. So... shh.
 
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i won't tell :D

sounds very interesting...(note: VERY)

(i am writing a short story for english, about a serial killer with a Messiah Complex removing "Black-Clad False Prophets and the Blonde Leading the Blind", full with questions of Society. sounds silly)
 
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please do! :)
 

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(i am writing a short story for english, about a serial killer with a Messiah Complex removing "Black-Clad False Prophets and the Blonde Leading the Blind", full with questions of Society. sounds silly)

sorry I didn't see this part before. I like the 'blonde leading the blind'- funny. Don't worry about things sounding silly, btw. Just write it and get it out. Have you ever read A Confederacy of Dunces? If not, you should.
 
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no, i will check it out though

(the idea came from watching Se7en and the News too closely together)

(Why should i check it out, pertaining to Messiah Complex Killer?)
anyway, it sounds Bloody Brilliant!
 

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