Intrinsic Motivation

[Waterstiller]

Creativity and intrinsic interest diminish if task is done for gain



This hits home with me. I personally don't want to do anything unless I'm intrinsically motivated to do it.

How you personally react to extrinsic motivation? Do you feel you are at your best when intrinsically motivated?

 

[walfin]

It would seem that the problem is control, not the reward in and of itself. The reward is evidence that someone is controlling you, and that you're not really "free".

I think I read somewhere that INTPs instinctively refuse to do something that someone else tells them to do. That seems to be the thing.

 

[Tunesimah]

Very interesting, good find.

I'm forever intrinsically motivated. Money, prestige, honor... all those things are useless to me. In school I don't care about getting good grades, I just care about understanding the material in a way that's satisfying to me. (of course I have to force myself to work hard on tests and papers, since there is a base level grade level I need to attain somethings)

I've started to question the quest for money, and it's motivating factors. Money doesn't necessarily create the best or most efficient companies... making the most interesting and important products, it just means that they are attracting the people who want to squeeze the most money out of the system as possible. Sometimes these goals are the same, sometimes they are not... and the people who are motivated by money will intentionally hurt the progress of the company, and humanity it general, just because it makes them more money/job security. Releasing an inferior product, just so you can release the 'new and improved' one later...

Personally my motivating factors are understanding, creativity, doing quality work and helping others. Helping others is a minor factor, but if someone needs help I can provide, I'll provide it... not thinking of the financial concerns. My point of view is long as I'm surviving and can enjoy the basic non-fancy material things, who cares about money? It should be the last thing to consider when deciding on doing a task.

It goes into saying the best teachers are the ones who don't do it for the money... those who are expecting money are the ones who jump out of the field. Many argue that if we raise the money we pay teachers, we'll get better teachers... I don't know if this is true. Teachers should get paid more, and maybe the basic level of teaching will improve... but I doubt you'll get any more of the best of the best teachers... they'll be teaching regardless.

 

[Adymus]

That rings true with me...

This is why I am really reconsidering my original plan to be a composer and producer. Now that I am not just making music for myself and my own whims, it's just work. The kind of music that I want to be making which is much more experimental is nothing like the kind of music I am being expected to do. Thus it feels like I am just mass producing substanceless crap rather than actually creatively exploring.

 

[Da Blob]

In one of my favorite textbooks, Social and Personality Development, by David Schaffer (available for about $5 on amazon - used and early edition) There is an entire chapter on achievement. Intrinsic or extrinsic motivation is a big deal. It is a matter of loci of control/power. Intrinsically motivated people just are able to do more, because they believe they can do it... It makes the difference in a lot of ventures...

People who have to be motivated by external means run the risk of falling into the trap of "learned helplessness" which eventually leads to the permanent social identity of a victim. The victim's stance is one of the most difficult to deal with in therapy because it is so deeply ingrained in some individuals...

 

[cuterebra]

I watched a video on the subject a few weeks ago: http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_motivation.html

I usually don't bother with videos--much faster to just read something--but this guy was a really great speaker.

 

[Vrecknidj]

I'd like to post, but I'd like to wait until I hear from some other INTP parents.

Dave

 

[Da Blob]

I watched a video on the subject a few weeks ago: http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_motivation.html

I usually don't bother with videos--much faster to just read something--but this guy was a really great speaker.

that was a pretty good presentation, I would be curious as to his presentation of the Mastery Orientation, but I am not much into the business apps of the topic...
This is more along my line..

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Contem...hapter_6:_Student_Motivation/Motives_as_Goals

 

[Agent Intellect]

It's certainly true for me. Since going back to school, I find myself procrastinating on homework that I both know how to do easily and would possibly even enjoy doing, just because knowing I have to do it makes it less appealing. The funny thing is, I have procrastinated doing my homework to do something else of an educational nature that isn't school related - I have even gone online and read about the very things my homework is about, just to get away from my homework. It's quite pathetic, actually.

 

[Artifice Orisit]

I find myself procrastinating on homework that I both know how to do easily and would possibly even enjoy doing, just because knowing I have to do it makes it less appealing.

I can relate, 100%.

The doing of a meaningless act is of itself a reward, so once there's reason to do it, even if an this reason is some sort of resulting reward, the act itself looses it's appeal.

 

[Waterstiller]

It's certainly true for me. Since going back to school, I find myself procrastinating on homework that I both know how to do easily and would possibly even enjoy doing, just because knowing I have to do it makes it less appealing. The funny thing is, I have procrastinated doing my homework to do something else of an educational nature that isn't school related - I have even gone online and read about the very things my homework is about, just to get away from my homework. It's quite pathetic, actually.

The only pathetic thing here is the concept of homework.

 

[Beat Mango]

Yes yes... this is the main thing stopping me from going into academia to make a career out of philosophy. It's the reason I work a generic job, so that the philosophy I do do is free from any particular aim or the enticement of will. It's why I plan on writing a manifesto instead of a PhD.

 

[Da Blob]

I have always hated school and loved learning. I could have easily obtained PhDs in several fields, but the idea of being a professor's lackey for several years as a graduate student was just such a turnoff. I did moderately well in school simply because I had gone to the library and on my own motivation learned that that was later presented as part of the curriculum.

I started a thread about Piaget. He believed that we all educate our selves. All I know is that was the case in my own life. I spent 18 years of my life is school and I can not remember one thing that I learned in a classroom because I was told to learn it or else...

I lived in the library, though, just wandering through the stacks, sometimes just looking for interesting titles...

 

[420MuNkEy]

For as far back as I can remember, I couldn't force myself to do mindless assignments in school. I was able to complete tests (which I almost always passed, regardless of not having done any assignments on the topic). I got passed from grade to grade because of my high test scores (despite my technically failing grades), but I eventually ended up dropping out as soon as I was legally able.

I never quite knew why I couldn't just force myself to do it, but learning and subsequently reading about my personality type (INTP) explained quite a bit, and this explains even further. I remember consciously recognizing early on (like 2nd grade) that the entire incentive for the 'School' experience was a diploma. I found the whole experience to be irrational and pointless (albeit, I couldn't quite articulate that at such a young age). Combining the idea that it's irrational and essentially pointless with the fact that almost every single thing about school (at least in America, afik) is incentive based, and thus exponentially diminishing any intrinsic motivation (which is really the only kind of motivation that works for me), it's a wonder I made it as long as I did.

Anyone else have a similar experience?



P.S. Disregard any oddly phrased statements, I was very tired at the time I wrote this.

 

[Vrecknidj]

Personally
Without the intrinsic motivation, I really don't do much. With intrinsic motivation, I can move mountains.

As a Husband
So, that's just it, right? I love my wife in a way that I've never loved another human. I can't even say that my love of other friends, family members, etc., is even of the same sort. It's like the difference between infinite numbers and finite numbers--it's simply of a different sort. So, as a husband, I am motivated, but this is probably because the intrinsic motivation is simply a bare fact in this case.

As a Father
It's funny. There are a lot of moms out there who, when asked, would have to admit that their love for their kids is greater than, more powerful than, more meaningful than any other kind of love. And, frankly, I get that (my wife is a labor doula--I've spent a lot of time around pregnant women and newborns). Anyway, while some dads also feel this way, many of them don't. I love my kids, and, compared to pretty much anyone else on the planet, I'll do whatever I need to do for them. So, the motivation is there too. But, it's still of a different sort than what I described in the previous paragraph.

This all begs a question about what love for others is, and how it connects to intrinsic motivation. Hence my prior post about wanting to wait to see what other parents posted. I waited, but I haven't seen much.

Any other parents want to jump in here?

Dave

 

[cheese]

How does this transect self-discipline? Seems to me that self-discipline involves extrinsic motivation, controlled by the self (which makes it so difficult). The fact that it's self-controlled doesn't necessarily make it intrinsic though.

Intrinsic motivation simply seems to mean living for the moment, for your Self at This point in time.

Self-discipline involves seeing the Self over a period of time, and acting based on net benefit to the cumulation of Selves.

I believe the tension between the two can be resolved by completely understanding the nature of the Self.

I think time distorts our understanding of many things. How a person, ostensibly the same person 2 minutes later, can decide to have chocolate cake instead of sticking to the diet proposed not 3 minutes earlier by (presumably) they themselves, is a little odd. I suppose once you accept that we're all simply complex science projects - including our motivations and decisions - it's easier to also accept that the Self is not necessarily very stable anyway.



Vrecknidj:
I don't have any kids myself, but I'm planning on starting a thread about parenting and punishment/discipline, and would be glad to have you contribute...

If I get around to it.

 

[Vrecknidj]

If I get around to it.

Been there! No hurry.



Dave

 

[SEPKA]

I think that the conclusion in the article is still being disputed in the psychology world. The line devided between behaviorist (reward->more creative) and cognitive (reward->less creative). The study does not seem to take other variable into account, such as the method of rewarding.
I don't find myself lose intrinsic interest if the task is done for gain, but if I have no intrinsic interest to begin with, I will be less creative.

 

[Waterstiller]

Intrinsic motivation simply seems to mean living for the moment, for your Self at This point in time.

Self-discipline involves seeing the Self over a period of time, and acting based on net benefit to the cumulation of Selves.

I believe the tension between the two can be resolved by completely understanding the nature of the Self.

I like this. I think I'd word it differently, but I'm not sure how to express my thoughts on the matter.

What I can comment on is Self Stability. I think having a sense of a stable self is relative to how you define the Self. I'm not sure I change over time; my Self, I mean. What changes is largely the social relationship I have with the world around me and my thoughts/feelings towards it. When I no longer fear something, and my actions and thoughts change, I'm not sure if I'm changing. If anything is changing, in my experience at least, it's that I'm becoming more and more of my genuine self. Me changing from Christian to Atheist to Agnostic changed my life drastically. It changed my social circle, thoughts, reading materials.. but I want to say that I'm the same exact person despite having different or more refined thoughts. I'm coming into my Self by experimenting. The superficial things are changing and changing drastically.

So there's this social self that is constantly changing that is completely unstable and then there's this deeper Self that has some base desires which I'm forever exploring and coming to know. It's almost like the deeper Self has a set and very old geography and I'm just exploring it either actively or passively. But I'm prompted to explore it by the changing social conditions. Sometimes I make camp where it's safe. I rest. But maybe I get too comfortable there. It's not until I run out of food or firewood that I have to move on, and that's when I make new discoveries. I think I'm at the point where I don't want to just feel safe or comfortable. Yeah, I'll stop to rest every now and then but I want to really explore this geography actively, being prompted by my own desire to explore it rather than acting only when there's a dearth of resources or there's danger.

It's also kind of helpful for me to understand that this is my own world; my own land. That there'll never be anyone here with me. But that's okay because that's what the social realm is for. Other people are out there navigating their own lands and some have dealt with the same problems you're dealing with now and might help to guide you out of some things.

And coming back to extrinsic motivation, I think it's a social relationship that's trying to give me help that isn't usually (but sometimes is) in the order that I need it. It stifles personal growth for many of us; it's discouraging personal exploration and only showing what others have brought back from their adventures. And forcing you to pick up where they left off. I also understand that SJ's can't live without these systems for some reason. Which is why I'm learning to have respect for extrinsic motivation systems while giving them up completely for myself. Perhaps some day I'll explore extrinsic motivation systems to help SJ's feel fulfilled while not being so destructive as they seem have a tendency to be. I'm currently wanting to work on making opting out of these systems easier and more socially acceptable but I'm not sure how I want to do it.

 

[cheese]

I like this. I think I'd word it differently, but I'm not sure how to express my thoughts on the matter.

Yes, it wasn't terribly clear.

The main point was that conflicting desires often exist in what is apparently one person. I think you're right in attributing at least part of that to the tension between the social self, and the personal self. The aims of both are often not entirely in line, and the best solution is probably integration of the two, as you seem to be suggesting - to be consistent regardless of context, which requires self-exploration. We need to identify our driving principles, and understand how they manifest in seemingly disparate areas; reconcile surface tensions by locking into deeper structure.

I've got another problem though, that I can't seem to resolve through social-personal integration. I understood extrinsic motivation to mean any reward that is not inherent in the task itself, ie no other person has to be involved. It could be as simple as allowing yourself a beer for finishing a post you didn't feel like typing - or even just knowing that you will feel better for having finished it.

Basically, end vs means. You may desire the result, but can't be arsed with the process. Does the end take precedence over the means? Is your true self more accurately reflected by the latter?

I almost feel like I have no right to allow Future Me to dictate Present Me's actions. After a certain amount of time 'I' won't even be comprised of the same atoms. There's benefit in the future, but who the hell is it lounging about in the jacuuzi? Is it the same person who dragged themselves through years of boring drudgery?

I know that, at each point, these 'Me's probably possess the same driving principles, but that doesn't make us the same person, necessarily - although of course by bandying the word 'person' about so freely I'm conflating two levels of abstraction and digging myself a hole - it's not at all fair to get reductionist on my argumentative ass only when it suits me.

I suppose the main problem is that I think I'm like water - I don't have any deeper structure that's strong enough to withstand the ripples caused by every errant pebble skipped across my social interface by a snot-nosed child of distraction. The common term is 'willpower', something that's died a petulant death on the shifting bed of my yearnings. It pains me greatly to keep myself in mental reins. It feels like betrayal.

The easy answer is that I'm simply not familiar enough with my 'inner geography', which could be true. But it seems an impossible task to gather ALL the confusion inside into a bundle tied together by a few measly strands, unless one wishes to reference only the most basic driving forces; those I think far too simple to be useful in educated application.

Anyway, bollocks. I just wanted to take a ride nowhere

 

[Nicholas A. A. E.]

Anyway, bollocks. I just wanted to take a ride nowhere

Heheh.

I think it is not relevant that we will comprise* different atoms. Our forms, our essences are the same. Our natures are the same. Our mind is the same mind. A thing may change, and still be the same thing.

*look up "comprise." one almost always says "it comprises them" but never "it is comprised of them."

 

[cheese]

Heheh.

I think it is not relevant that we will comprise* different atoms. Our forms, our essences are the same. Our natures are the same. Our mind is the same mind. A thing may change, and still be the same thing.

*look up "comprise." one almost always says "it comprises them" but never "it is comprised of them."

Lies! I say it all the time.

Anyway:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/comprise

It's accepted in some academic circles, but is still a grey area. I shall continue to use it to force a shift in standards. They would called I "The Changes One".

*edit (missed the other bit)
I think it is not relevant that we will comprise* different atoms. Our forms, our essences are the same. Our natures are the same. Our mind is the same mind. A thing may change, and still be the same thing.

Clones?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

I'm just opening the argument, not concluding it.

 

[Waterstiller]

I suppose the main problem is that I think I'm like water - I don't have any deeper structure that's strong enough to withstand the ripples caused by every errant pebble skipped across my social interface by a snot-nosed child of distraction. The common term is 'willpower', something that's died a petulant death on the shifting bed of my yearnings. It pains me greatly to keep myself in mental reins. It feels like betrayal.

Despite the cheese, I like this paragraph a lot. At times I feel like water; completely fluid. But at rare moments I feel like I'm solid. There are certain items in my life that I feel completely solid with; mainly because I related to them such a long time ago and while I've changed, my relationship with that object hasn't really. My mom's guitar that I picked up when I was 11 or so is something that has changed much less than I have and whenever I touch it I feel a sense of constancy. That's the strongest object (to my knowledge) but I occasionally run across other old objects that I either created (a first journal) or imparted emotional meaning on that provide a sense of constancy (a bench at the UCR botanic gardens). These things make me feel real at times when I feel completely unreal. What I impart onto these rare things is a record of my deeper self, and touching/smelling/listening to them helps give 'me' some context.

One of my favoritestest quotes:
'The experience of Self brings a feeling of standing on solid ground inside oneself, on a patch of eternity, which even death cannot touch.' - Marie-Louise von Franz

But it seems an impossible task to gather ALL the confusion inside into a bundle tied together by a few measly strands, unless one wishes to reference only the most basic driving forces; those I think far too simple to be useful in educated application.

By base desires I meant 'foundational desires from your deeper sense of self'. Not really basic driving forces like hunger, sex, ect. I'm really bad at putting my ideas across accurately. But to be honest I'm not really focused on clear communication in this setting and more just wanting to blab aimlessly while taking in others' aimless blabbering (I <3 it so). 'Taking a ride to nowhere' really sums up what motivates me lol; it's those rides to somewhere specific that bore me.

 

[cheese]

Despite the cheese,

Yeah, I'm getting really carried away with figurative language at the moment. I will look back on this period in shame and hard-earned wisdom. Bollocks.

I like this paragraph a lot. At times I feel like water; completely fluid. But at rare moments I feel like I'm solid. There are certain items in my life that I feel completely solid with; mainly because I related to them such a long time ago and while I've changed, my relationship with that object hasn't really. My mom's guitar that I picked up when I was 11 or so is something that has changed much less than I have and whenever I touch it I feel a sense of constancy. That's the strongest object (to my knowledge) but I occasionally run across other old objects that I either created (a first journal) or imparted emotional meaning on that provide a sense of constancy (a bench at the UCR botanic gardens). These things make me feel real at times when I feel completely unreal. What I impart onto these rare things is a record of my deeper self, and touching/smelling/listening to them helps give 'me' some context.

One of my favoritestest quotes:
'The experience of Self brings a feeling of standing on solid ground inside oneself, on a patch of eternity, which even death cannot touch.' - Marie-Louise von Franz

I will think more about this. My immediate reactions are split in two - recognition, and dismissal on 'scientific' grounds, but I know those can be misleading. Am still trying to sort through the materialistic mess in my head.

By base desires I meant 'foundational desires from your deeper sense of self'. Not really basic driving forces like hunger, sex, ect. I'm really bad at putting my ideas across accurately. But to be honest I'm not really focused on clear communication in this setting and more just wanting to blab aimlessly while taking in others' aimless blabbering (I <3 it so). 'Taking a ride to nowhere' really sums up what motivates me lol; it's those rides to somewhere specific that bore me.

Yes, I understood. But some have taken it down that path, to which I have reacted with profound meh-ism. Or perhaps that's my current exhaustion speaking.

This forum's taking on rather elephantine proportions. But we'll remain as directionless as ever, for which I am eternally...look, daisies!

 

[Da Blob]

Motivation- that which propels Self through Time.

Now if "We" could define both the concept of Self and the concept of Time, that statement might have some meaning... I 'believe' that both Waterstiller and Cheese have pointed out that the concept of Self really is intertwined with One's concept of Time...
(As an aside, I would suggest that the concepts of Time, Self, God and Language are all intertwined and to a certain extent define the experience of 'being' human)

I believe that it was Pierre Janet that originally suggested that personal pronouns were not merely empty symbols to facilitate conversation, but rather that each pronoun indicated a realm of our personal, internal "geography"... Realms that are contingent more than overlapping.

It seemed as if Dave was addressing the motivation of the Realm of 'We', the Freudian body image that includes others... It is quite intriguing, I have enough difficulty analyzing the individual pronouns and the states of being represented by the words, Me and I. ["I" have determined that the word "I" is actually an abbreviation of the word "I(t)"]. I really have not defined concept of what it is that motivates "We" or "Us" - perhaps, it is encompassed by the vague boundaries of the word, Love...

And in the final analysis, perhaps it is Love that provides the very best of intrinsic motivation (of all the 'e'motions or 'e'motivators). That seems to be the major problem with a lot of external motivations , ( the threat of pain or punishment or the promise of reward in the 'distant' future) It has little to do with Love or other self-expressions of the passion-filled Artist that is 'Our' Self... An artist, that, because of the priorities of The Machine we live in, is discounted and ignored...

 

[jsibley1]

I remember consciously recognizing early on (like 2nd grade) that the entire incentive for the 'School' experience was a diploma. I found the whole experience to be irrational and pointless (albeit, I couldn't quite articulate that at such a young age).

I didn't care about my diploma in high school and I don't care about it after college. My old roommate graduated college and proudly hung his up on the wall in an expensive frame, while mine still sits in the cardboard tube it came in almost a year later.

Also, I didn't go to college to learn something to be a productive adult and to make enough money to buy a huge house and buy an $80,000 car. I went to college to study something I liked and that I was good at. Honestly, I don't care if I max out at X dollars a year and drive a shitty car. The "stuff" we are told to consume in this society just doesn't appeal to me. Don't get me wrong... I like stuff... but when I am doing something that makes money, I'm doing it just to do it... not to convert my work into TVs and sports tickets.