INTP's blank face phenomenon

[Redfire]

A post Architect made got me thinking. When I was a child most adults would often ask me, repeatedly, if I was ok. "Why so serious?". In pictures I can see my face looks blank. No hint of emotion. Now: I obviously did feel some emotion and still do, but I guess it just doesn't show in my face.

In time I learned to fake it, although sometimes I would forget, and again: the questions. Some of my friends would laugh and tell the teachers: "it's ok, really, that's just his face". Eventually I completely mastered it. I can act like an ENTP when I want to (I'm serious, you wouldn't know the difference), and that's extremely useful in social situations.

Nowadays it's not a problem anymore. I guess adults are supposed to look serious anyhow.

Did you guys experience the same thing? I'm not talking about once or twice, this happened to me repeatedly through my entire childhood.

Do you ever have to fake emotion? Like when they give you a present and you are supposed to look (and act) excited.

Also: all schizoids seem to have the blank face. So it may have to do with solitude, or a tendency towards solitude.

 

[Jennywocky]

I'm usually thinking, so I do have a blank face. At this point in life, I'm managed to somehow "hook it up" so I can seem more natural, but that wasn't my starting point, and I'm in situations where I consciously find myself "shuffling through facial expressions" internally in order to "put on" the appropriate one for whatever just got said or done. If I care to.

Also, doing that too much drains my energy reserves.

Maybe it's solitude too, I do spend a lot of my time alone. There' s no need to communicate via expressions, so I never really learned to do that or thought about it until I got older. Everything was internalized.

PS. Reminded of that one scene in "Aliens" that always sticks with me -- Bishop staring into the microscope, and the soldier trying to get his attention, and has to say, "Hello, Bishop, do you need anything?" in a resigned voice because he's not responding. Bishop (although he was an "artificial human") had that same flat affect and blank look.

---

The times I got yelled at were actually when I was adlibbing on the piano. I would just sit there and be "composing as I go," but apparently I'm in my inner experience at those moments, and so what I do is that wherever I'm looking when I start, that's where I keep looking with a kind of empty stare and no real facial expression.

So if someone happened to be there where I was "staring through them" endlessly while playing, sometimes they'd get weirded out and yell at me to stop. Lol.

 

[Rook]

My face is almost always blank.
If someone says something funny, I laugh.
Otherwise, blank.
Honestly, I like it that way.

 

[Yellow]

I think I must have had "resting bitch face" as a child. I was frequently asked if I was mad or upset by random adults and children. My father always got onto me saying that intelligent people have brighter, more attentive faces, and letting your face just rest was a huge indicator of mental and physical laziness. Not knowing what kind of face I should have, I adopted an "alert & curious" look that's become almost natural. I try to wear it when I'm talking to people and other expressions aren't required. It must work, because I've had many people remark over the last couple of decades that I have a distinctive "twinkle" in my eye.

The social cues to show greeting, empathy, sympathetic happiness, encouragement, excitement, etc., aren't actually passing through me as emotions, so they must be faked. Also, I have to work to reign in negative expressions like contempt, disregard, irritation, and anything close to patronizing because they pop up in my mind more often than is socially appropriate.

I've gotten pretty good at it. I've only met two people in the wild who could tell without getting to know me first, and they're both Borderlines.

 

[Architect]

Yes I got that question when I was younger. I actually can't do a conscious smile, never learned how. But I'll smile when I laugh, one of the few direct expressions of emotion I'll give.

In the other post I mentioned that I've done a mini informal study of INTP faces, the six or so I know personally and many online I'm reasonably confident are INTP's, and the few celebrities I think are too. It's interesting and funny to put pictures of INTP's up right next to each other. The Pod'Lair people are nuts, but one thing they did well was reading people. In particular they noted how Thinkers use their face versus feelers. Our faces have a lot of processing power behind them

[BIMG]http://www.autismindex.com/Therapies/Therapy_Key_Word_Site_Map/sensory/motor_1.jpg[/BIMG]​

The point is that a lot of emotion comes out through the face, even in degrees. Feelers will use the whole face. Some will just use the mouth, with strong ones it usually goes up past the eyes. Thinkers have blank faces. Some thinkers will have relatively blank faces even when they smile. INTP's are the most blank, rarely smiling, at most with a closed mouth edge of mouth curved up in a "I guess I have to do this".

 

[Architect]

Some blank faced people I believe are all INTP's. In conversation you will see small clues to the emotion, the faces will light up a bit, a small smile, or a laugh, but compare to a strong feeler

Gabby

Brad

Tom

 

[Yellow]

I've never bothered to watch a video of an INTP woman before. Watching the Gabby lady was a little strange. Maybe it's a coincidence, but she sighs where I would sigh, and makes the *tsk* sound exactly how and when I would make the *tsk* sound. The hand gestures are eerily familiar too. I don't really relate as much to the men's mannerisms of facial expressions. Maybe it's because she's [clearly] from the West Coast. Some of it could be regional, right? INTPs don't do everything the same way, RIGHT!? I'm kind of freaking out here.

 

[Jennywocky]

...were you adopted? ...

 

[Redfire]

So all thinkers have blank faces then? Can emotional expressiveness be used as an accurate way of separating all thinkers from all feelers? My natural scepticism tells me there must be some exceptions. But when I think about the people I know, it makes sense. I could be biased though, seeing through the lense of this particular theory.

I just remembered ElvenVeil made a set of videos talking about this stuff. Part of Auburn's project: http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=12410&highlight=physiognomy

But I can't access the website.

edit: one would think an INTP woman would grow up with even more questions about facial expressiveness, considering women (and particularly little girls) are expected to be fluffy all the time. So yes.

 

[Rook]

Dr Mike is somewhat condescending but also threatened by the phenom that is intp.....

 

[RaBind]

Kristen Stewart has always struck me as an actress void of any traces of facial expression. Does this indicate that she is a thinker type?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6Gpg7kcji0

and more facial expressions from a movie that's not twilight

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Y0ICUEg240

 

[Analyzer]

Out of all the feelers I wonder if INFJ's have the blankest faces.

 

[TBerg]

When I think of my facial expressions, I think I used to be unaware of them. Sometimes I thought that a specific thought was present in my face when it wasn't, and sometimes I thought I was hiding a thought from myself and others when it was clear upon my face. I have been detached from many of my surroundings and my own body for much of my life, and only now do I realize how detached from reality I was and perhaps still am. I am full of defense mechanisms, and I want the truth but I don't want the anxiety and the disappointment from the truth. I am the destroyer of myself. I only have the naive rudiments of other modus operandi. I am the critic but not the champion.

 

[scorpiomover]

All my photos of me as a kid, show me having a gormless expression. Not unexpressive. More like I'm just not really there, and my mind is always somewhere else (in dreamland).

 

[Pyropyro]

During my childhood and teenage years, the blank face is my default facial feature.

However, lately I have become quite animated when dealing with people. Partly, because I need to project a warm persona so as to benefit my office and partly because I'm trying to work with my emotional quotient.

I still do have a blank face when dealing with people who are just spewing crap.

 

[Grayman]

I am the reverse. I don't recognize a lot of feeling but my face is apparently very expressive and I am unaware of it... then again people read into things a lot.

example:
I was in an exercise group and for some reason the leader felt it necessary to go around and have us state any injuries that we had 'publicly' to the group. When my turn came up I said "I had back surgery and that's it." I was just thinking of giving a list but only had one item to give and so indicated the end of the list but everyone took it as me belittling my back surgery and at least 3 people said "that's it..." in a confounded tone that hinted at "dude, that is a big deal!".

I do smile and laugh a lot and give off as much expression as possible to allow people to feel more comfortable but it is awkward at times. It is a very important communication tool.

When I am in a goofy mood and am just having fun it is easy to express and it is very obvious. I was watching this friend of mine that I recognize as ISTP or INTP but am certain of Ixtp regardless and when interested in something he is extremely expressive and even gets what is best described as a clumsy movement of face and arms and such. I feel a familiarity wit this.

 

[Ex-User (11125)]

lol...
normally i have blank expression and my eyes are half closed(i wasn't even aware of the thing with my eyes, people frequently pointed it out to me)
so i guess my default expression is sleepy/out of it
i think it was a lot worse in school though, i remember being constantly asked "what's wrong?"
now in architecture school, everyone looks sleepy/tired so my expression doesn't stand out.
i laugh a lot though, sometimes at the lamest crap(things become funnier in my head)...so it all balances out, i guess.

 

[Perfectly Normal Beast]

i don't really understand what smiling is for (seems rather aggressive to bare teeth at someone as a display of...???) and am particularly inept at arranging my face in to the necessary configuration when required to do so for photos, introductions etc.

i find much of life absurdly hilarious and laugh very frequently but have concluded that the muscles used for laughing must be a different set than those used for smiling because when i try to practise smiling my face starts twitching after less than one second as though the smiling muscles are unaccustomed to activity.

i'm very good at frowning and scowling though

 

[Yossarian]

I was turned onto this recently by an observant co-worker who was "worried" about me lol.

"You don't make eye contact very much"
"You look like you are mad"
"You have a 1000 yard stare when you are listening to me"

Oh. Does that make you uncomfortable?

 

[Architect]

Out of all the feelers I wonder if INFJ's have the blankest faces.

No they're very expressive, explosively so. Their ISFJ counterparts seems less expressive. ISFP's aren't especially expressive either, they put it into their work. INFP's also are less expressive than INFJ's in my experience.

Kristen Stewart has always struck me as an actress void of any traces of facial expression. Does this indicate that she is a thinker type?

Great videos, yes she's a zombie. I've always taken her for an ST type though I'm not familiar with her (because ST types turn me off).

For an opposite take, here's an ENFP (or I should say, two ENFP's as I believe Mike is one too)

ENFP

Obviously an ENFP, she's warmly expressive. It's cute, you can see Mike flirting with her.

 

[Grayman]

Obviously an ENFP, she's warmly expressive. It's cute, you can see Mike flirting with her.

If you are ENFP you brag because you are really good at reading people and their expressions and if you INTP you brag because you are really good at not having expressions. What does an ENFP read in an INTP?

 

[RaBind]

If you are ENFP you brag because you are really good at reading people and their expressions and if you INTP you brag because you are really good at not having expressions. What does an ENFP read in an INTP?

I'm thinking "Are you angry? I'm asking cause you look a bit down."

or I should say, two ENFP's as I believe Mike is one too.

I suppose you are referring to Dr.Mike the host?

 

[Architect]

I suppose you are referring to Dr.Mike the host?

No Mike the masturbating dolphin.

What does an ENFP read in an INTP?

INTP's are easy to read. It's like reading Japanese people, you just have to know the cues.

 

[eagor]

No Mike the masturbating dolphin.

i always enjoyed that show

anyway to answer OP i've always had to answer the question "are you ok?", throughout childhood but that slowly stopped as I entered puberty.

Spoiler

When I was in either 4th or 5th grade my teacher really liked to bother me about it, which of course only served to irritate me. So now I start emoting, but the only emotional range I can display to her was either irritation or wild anger (the bitch rubbed me the wrong way). All of a sudden CPS starts rearing its ugly head and to make a long story short I was evaluated by a shrink (looking for cognitive gremlins) and had to spend my time after school in a daycare till I was 13...

 

[Doktorin Zylinder]

I remember my parents telling me to smile when I was younger and I was recently looking at a photo album that I managed to snag from years ago and I'm not smiling in most of them.

An ex of mine always had to ask what I was feeling because she couldn't read me at all.

People think I'm angry or annoyed most of the time and I don't make eye contact very often. If I do, it's usually a glimpse and a mistake but when it does happen those who've made contact say it's scary or eerie.

 

[J-man]

I hate that people get freaked out when I don't make any effort to express anything. Having an expressionless face is just so comfortable.

 

[JimJambones]

As lovable as I believe my face to be, it takes some getting used to. Some don't fully appreciate my smart ass grin or my dry sense of humor.

*A face only a mother could love

 

[RaBind]

No Mike the masturbating dolphin.

Well apart from Dr Mike and Mike the masturbating dolphin there's also Mike the ISTP boyfriend, who I'm quite sure you've missed by now. I was a bit confused as to which Mike is flirting with Kristina and which Mike is the ENFP, but yeah I suppose Kristina was giving the fuck me eyes to the other Mike, the ENFP masturbating dolphin, in the room.

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B6E-XJvjow

 

[Ostap Bender]

This is very true, especially about teenage years and beyond. I've had some good pictures of me when I was younger with smiles and all. Now I have hard times giving fake smiles and numerous people commented on my blank face. I've had a stripper try to solicit a lapdance from me and my friends once and she asked why I was so serious. I had my father tell me on many occasions that I look too serious and never smile. I had a woman ask me to smile for a group photo (of mostly pretentious people I didnt care for) and I told her that I only smile when there is a reason. I am a very funny person to a sarcastic point. In any situation I can say something funny as immediate response. At the same time I rarely smile at jokes or people unless my true emotion is involved. I can start laughing while watching something alone if I feel like it but it will be extremely hard for me to make social smiles and laughter.

Luckily I also got to use it to my advantage. I am currently in the process of selling my condo and last month accepted 5th offer on the place. I am selling it on my own and had to meet with the buyers agent after me and her exchanged a few calls during which I counter offered their initial price with my own and she asked me to see her in person with good news. During the whole meeting I sat stone cold and even when she called the buyer on speaker I sat emotionless. I found a way to exploit my own weakness

PS. Keeping it serious @ 4.7

 

[Architect]

Well apart from Dr Mike and Mike the masturbating dolphin there's also Mike the ISTP boyfriend, who I'm quite sure you've missed by now. I was a bit confused as to which Mike is flirting with Kristina and which Mike is the ENFP, but yeah I suppose Kristina was giving the fuck me eyes to the other Mike, the ENFP masturbating dolphin, in the room.

I know about the boyfriend but he doesn't show up in this video, didn't remember his name was Mike. I don't get why she's with him (the boyfriend) by the way, he hardly seems worth it.

 

[RaBind]

I know about the boyfriend but he doesn't show up in this video, didn't remember his name was Mike. I don't get why she's with him (the boyfriend) by the way, he hardly seems worth it.

He doesn't appear in the video, but he is in the same room. There are some exchanges, however whispers too silent to hear probably. Well, you already stated your prejudice against STs so yea I guess you wouldn't appreciate him. I'm sure we intps drive some other types crazy too.

 

[Mortdecai]

That tends to be a problem for me. I learned to fake expressions, but it's not something automatic. Sometimes my mother have fits of anger because I always have the face of someone who "is disgusted by everything and everyone". My father simply says I'm arrogant.

It's quite irritating, because I may even be enjoying whathever it is I'm doing, but apparently my face doesn't really express that.

I have to constantly remind myself to put the facade on. It's tiring.

 

[Sinny91]

If I had a quid for every person who told me to 'cheer up' based on my expresion, I'd be a very rich lady indeed.

Really, most things people say and do not interest me in the slightest, and if they do, I'm working over time in my mind; I just don't have an emotional reaction to people of information.

If anything, mostly react with my eyebrows; Interesting? They go up, Skeptical? The one arches haha. Bored, or irritated, I really have to work hard on not rolling my eye's visibly.

This caused me problems with a boss I had in the office, who wanted me to be more E & F.

But I've royally f*ct it now, I've just got a stop-gap job in which I HAVE to smile.
I deem it as a challenge to be completed.

It does worry me that I am always unable to return a friendly smile to someone who deserves one back.

 

[Chymera]

I often forget to express emotion. I feel it strongly but I forget to make my face do the thing. Or if I do express an emotion its not always appropriate. I laugh when Im nervous, cry when Im angry (UGH) and look bored when Im happy. It used to get me in trouble when I was a kid.
Thankfully, Ive learned to fake appropriate emotional responses when Im at work (Im a barista) to the point where most people would be surprised to know how shy and introverted I am. Its not natural, its a separate persona created especially for when Im at work or otherwise around strangers. (Will smile for tips)
The tendency to not react much externally has definitely served me well, but it can also be frustrating when I *think* my emotions are visible and I find out their not. This is not aided by the fact that my humour is very dry and sarcastic. Unless I say Im joking people don't always get it.

 

[INTPWolf]

I get asked if i'm stoned a lot, apparently i don't oft fully open my eyes. But i feel weird if i open my eyes all the way unless i'm actually looking around, normally im kinda zoned out in contemplation.

 

[SolarCycler]

I was always a smiler starting out up until about 3rd grade. I would imagine I feel the same now, but I trained myself not to smile generally just because of how awesome I feel thanks to the new school I moved to. But I have people thinking I'm high/drunk on something due to my larger pupils then I guess situations dictate. So, life keeps me high, and I'm sticking to that. Honestly, I can't understand how people would want to use drugs. My natural state is such a blessing after a low from some chemical. I always think things act on me backwards.

I guess I'm a blank facer upon some questions/answers. It seems some people expect some sort of validation after they say something, that I feel needs none. They look at me funny and repeat themselves. So I'm like, "really?" on the inside and say something so they can feel validated.

 

[Brontosaurie]

Honestly, I can't understand how people would want to use drugs.

schh

if we legalize drugs everyone will eventually be zoned out on heroin and society will cease to function. haven't you heard? humans have no natural desire to make well for themselves. we need god or the state for that. don't you dare be right. don't you dare be a person. schh

 

[TheAdditional1]

Is it too late to jump in on this?

I might mention it a lot but I can't get over this weird combination of nature vs nurture that I've dealt with. Biggest influence: Being hearing impaired. You just can't interact with the world with the same detachment as you'd naturally like to. Everything is one-on-one, you can't passively participate in conversations because you always need someone to tell you what's going on. You have to become socially aware to cues - be nice to those who help you so they'll continue to help you; pick up body language cues to blend in when you can't hear the spoken cues. Add to the fact that you/INTP's take every factor into consideration, so that it becomes a mild form of torture to miss any possible nuance to a conversation. You become really sensitive to body language, and when you're a cognitive analyst, you are then presented with (and project) a whole new set of information. Kind of like an echo bouncing around uneven surfaces, and being projected on a flat plane - very different in composition but can still be analyzed as an end result.

That's me. And so I am hyper-aware of my projected image and always have to have intimate interactions with everyone, and I think I may have developed better expression than other INTP's. But these days I am working in an office environment, much more pragmatic and functional than just social cues here, social cues there.

As a result of that, I'm feeling more and more comfortable with just letting my expressions drop. Sometimes I worry how creepy it comes off, especially as I'm a lip reader and so I'm staring intently at their face the whole time. People will also continue to explain things long after I've gotten the gist of it and so like 85% of their conversation I'm pretty much checked out waiting for them to stop, but still staring at their lips in case anything new comes up.

Blank face all along and it's just more comfortable that way. If I could hear better I would rarely feel like watching people's faces at all, unless I were reading them deeper than their words.

 

[TheAdditional1]

You know what, I'll spare everyone.

TL;DR

As a hearing impaired lipreader, I've had to become particularly attuned to others' emotions and body languages, and now I am almost overly-sensitive and reactive - immediately default to a pleasant smile to anybody or anything I don't quite hear/catch. But lately I'm acknowledging that it feels so fake uncomfortable, and I usually drop the visual pleasantries as soon as they look away. I just feel a detachment from my expressions and my feelings.

After years and years of doing this it's pretty automatic and very hard to stop. But boy am I trying.

 

[Alias]

Just yesterday a friend told me I had a good pokerface. It's not hard to contain expressions for me, unless I've seen something so funny that I can't stop laughing.

 

[Sinny91]

I get asked if i'm stoned a lot, apparently i don't oft fully open my eyes. But i feel weird if i open my eyes all the way unless i'm actually looking around, normally im kinda zoned out in contemplation.

About a year ago in my office job, I finally caught wind that my boss at the time thought I was stoned on the job all the time; well, I wasn't bloody stoned on the job, so I was like 'hey, if you already think I'm stoned, I might as well be stoned', and so I started going to work stoned, and even started getting stoned on my lunch breaks too.
(Before that I restricted myself to night time smoking only).

Boss knew I smoked weed through her informant, and didn't really care. About 6 months ago I did quit the weed for 3 weeks, just to test my own reliance on the stuff, and the withdrawal caused some intense dreams.. Upon hearing about these disturbing dreams, she recommended I get back on the weed asap haha, I thought that was pretty cool of her. We had a love/hate relationship.

I think she thought I was stoned because my sleep inertia was/is real bad, plus blank face phenomena.

These days I'm stoned 18 hours a day, so no one really knows when I am and when I'm not lol.

 

[JimJambones]

I do get asked often if I'm alright, which is annoying because I don't really have how I am feeling on the forefront of my mind. So I will go from indifference to feeling annoyed when asked.

I tend to smile in conversation, but only in a formal, polite way. What is clear though is when I talk about an interest of mine, I'll go into technical detail and my face becomes devoid of emotion and this likely bores people. Their faces go from lively to bored quite quickly.

 

[roguedoll]

Yea, I've been asked what I'm so angry about (nothing?), and I've been told I looked like a mean high school girl.

I absolutely despise smiling for pictures because I look goofy by the time my smile is big enough to be deemed an actual smile.

 

[TylerTennessee]

This isn't just a me thing?
It's phenomenal how many traits are shared by forum users.
Where do you people exist in the real world? I'm alone offline

 

[Octocat]

Not many people have commented on my face being expressionless. I think a friend said something about it and I looked in the mirror one day and just realized "Well...they're not wrong."

 

[Anling]

Yes, and I still occasionally get that. Why are people expected to be expressive when they're not even interacting with anyone?
It is frustrating when I'm working as a receptionist and I think I'm being rather friendly and people complain that I look angry or that I don't smile enough. Even when as far as I'm concerned I am smiling.

Anling

 

[FlorisV]

As an adult I still have the problem. "You don't seen happy!". "Don't look so angry/serious!". "You could be more enthusiastic!".

Yes I am frequently expected to show an emotion I don't feel. And get that sort of remark if I don't fake the emotion (and I usually don't because faking it is hard for me to do convincingly and very uncomfortable).

And yup, I recognize many SPD traits, almost all. And solitude leads to a less emotional life. A dopamine shortage, having an ADD like brain, does not help.

It's one of the reasons for being labeled "boring". Emotions are the gravy for people. While INTP's seem to be all about the meat and potatoes.

But personally I have liked dry-witted people, the types that fire one joke after another but never laugh about their own jokes, or make the deadpan cynic comments, with dark humor, there's a certain charm in dryness sometimes as long as you keep your sense of humor.

 

[FieldOfHats]

I've been mistaken for depressed a couple times because of my flat tone and flat affect around strangers, but usually I am very aware of what my face is doing, and tend to imitate the expression of whoever I'm talking to. I guess I'm a bit too conscious, I tend to over exaggerate all of my facial expressions, which I assume just looks normal to other people. :P

-FoH

 

[Vurern]

Yes the face thing lol.... Like for example I was sitting at the train station just waiting for the train minding my own business "normal" face in my own world when a train station employee was gritting the station as it was winter. Anyways she walked passed me and said cheer up its the weekend of course I had to return a fake smile and laugh ... When I was younger I would be sitting on the bus or train and think o i better put on some kinda smile or something but i would put so much thought into my face expression I would think everyone around me could possibly be judging me etc. Funny thing I was reading an INTP book and this came up "They often avoid eye contact, as though the gaze of their interlocutor may somehow harm them or render them incapable of thinking or communicating. INTPs may also feel insecure about the scattered nature of their Ne expression, which may at times sound more like disjointed ramblings than erudite expositions. Feeling that someone else is closely watching or critiquing their expressions only furthers their sense of insecurity." I have trained my self not to care as much anymore there is no point ... but yeah would always get the oo cheer up be happy all that lol -.- most the time I would be just that it would not show on my face.

 

[Absinthesize]

A post Architect made got me thinking. When I was a child most adults would often ask me, repeatedly, if I was ok. "Why so serious?". In pictures I can see my face looks blank. No hint of emotion. Now: I obviously did feel some emotion and still do, but I guess it just doesn't show in my face.

In time I learned to fake it, although sometimes I would forget, and again: the questions. Some of my friends would laugh and tell the teachers: "it's ok, really, that's just his face". Eventually I completely mastered it. I can act like an ENTP when I want to (I'm serious, you wouldn't know the difference), and that's extremely useful in social situations.

Nowadays it's not a problem anymore. I guess adults are supposed to look serious anyhow.

Did you guys experience the same thing? I'm not talking about once or twice, this happened to me repeatedly through my entire childhood.

Do you ever have to fake emotion? Like when they give you a present and you are supposed to look (and act) excited.

Also: all schizoids seem to have the blank face. So it may have to do with solitude, or a tendency towards solitude.

i had to learn this too, i became a server, have been for about 5 years now. started out everyone kept telling me to smile more, pissed me right off. now ive managed to get to the point where i can get up to one minute of good casual conversation.

after that tho...