INTPs and Lying

[universe34]

As I sat on my couch, playing the video game Rock Band, I thought of this:

Might certain types be more conducive to a given behavior?

For example, I have a nasty tendency to lie about school and other such topics to my parents. I was wondering if my INTP personality might predispose me to this. Now I know what you will all say: something along the lines of John Locke and tabula rasa and so forth, but I feel that the characteristics of an INTP are conducive to this behavior.

Let's look at two portions of the abbreviation INTP:

I-Introverted. We dislike confronting people who would persecute or otherwise mistreat us for our behavior.

NT-Rational Thought Group. We tend to be very fast thinkers (I know I am) and therefore we can quickly come up with a believable lie that will get us out of the supposed trouble. As I can not get into any of your minds by any method known to me, I am not sure if I am committing a fallacy here, but I know that I tend to imagine a scenario in my head in which I tell the truth and am punished. Therefore, my /I/NTP nature wants me to avoid this situation.

Therefore, I feel that my personality predisposes me toward lying. While I know this could never hold up in court, I was hoping for your opinions.

Thank you,

Universe34

 

[The Frood]

I'm pretty sure there is already a thread on this. here actually .

But, I disagree that being an INTP predisposes you towards lying.

We INTP's are first and foremost truth-seekers. Most of our time thinking is spent trying to find the truth of the matter at hand. But, on those occasions where we "need" to lie, we generally can lie quite persuasively.

 

[universe34]

My apologies, I had this idea and failed to use the Ctrl + F function to find similar threads.

 

[RubberDucky451]

Don't worry about it man, I see these thread repeats as a bump of sorts.

Personally I have a terrible time lying, but that's probably from my Christian upbringing. I can think of times where I had thought up a brilliant lie yet I couldn't deliver it correctly.

 

[BitRogue]

I too hate lying. Like RubberDucky451, I have a strong Christian background. But Im not sure thats the only reason. Usually I tend to not want people to pry into things that I do, so I usually always answer in the absolute minimum. (this is not lying, but you also dont have to tell the full truth.) But if anyone dug deeper, I usually end up telling the full story. I have found its better to not do anything that you can't hold yourself accountable for. Anyway, wheres your backbone if you feel guilty about doing something you have to lie about?

 

[Haven]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpersonal_deception_theory

Perhaps not so relevant, but interesting at least (and I know that it is from wiki, but I have textbooks which contain the exact same information, so perhaps that it is identical to many published works gives it more credibility?)

 

[Anthile]

Studies showed that lying is a sign of intelligence. Intelligent children lie earlier and more often than less intelligent children. But that's not universal, of course. Just because someone is a notorious liar doesn't mean he's a genius. It's about telling a convincing story and providing for all contigencies. The saying 'It takes a thief to catch another thief' is quite correct, it takes another intelligent person to see through a good liar.
Why we lie can be easily explained through game theory. Pragmatically spoken, criminality is a business with high profit and high risk. We have laws that make it even riskier and additionally, criminals become social outcasts. The reason why we do that and why not everyone is a scoundrel is simple: cooperation is in the long run usually more profitable and less risky.
An example: You live in a town with a high criminality rate. Gangsters and con artists terrorize the citizens. You have a small business and because of this high criminality you have to invest in a security system, better locks, security guard, a gun in your office, etc. All of this costs you time and money simply to protect your property against criminals and that is lost because it produces nothing of value. Now imagine the local police starts a campaign and reduces the criminality rate to zero. Everyone is happy and all the safety measures can be sold again. You see, a society with no criminality is better for everyone. But what is that? Someone notices that there are no safety measures at all, people are not used to criminals anymore and are easy to deceive. The profit is high, the risk is low - only his conscience telling him that disrupting a cooperative society is not a very good thing to do. At this point we can tell that criminals usually come from the lowest ranks of society - for these people criminality is the easiest way to climb higher in the social ladder.
Of course this example is very theoretical and there are infinitely more factors that play a part in this but that's how it basically works.

 

[Dormouse]

I never lie.

 

[warryer]

Usually, I tell the truth because it's much less taxing. I don't have to pay much attention to the people around me. It is what it is. I live in peaceful oblivion.

If I have to tell a lie, I play the part. I get into character to make it believable. I only use lies to avoid trouble for myself. I don't think I could use it in other more underhanded ways because I would feel so wrong and dirty.

 

[Words]

Lying is part of social experimentation. If I said X, how would person B reply? I simply cannot resist.

 

[Anling]

It doesn't usually occur to me to lie. I think the only time I can do it convincingly is if I am playing a role already.

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

There are those who claim that the best lie is the most outrageous concoction someone's creativity makes up. That's based on the notion that if the "lie-er's" story is wild enough then the "lie-ee" will believe it because "it'd too crazy to make up!". This of course is false.

The best lie is at least 95% true. That's because more often than not some corroboration or contradiction to whatever story you tell will eventually come to light. If it's the former, the rest of your story is more likely to be believed. So the more you can use truth in your lie, the better your odds that it will be corroberation rather than contradiction.

You must remember one important thing:

99+% of the population won't try and verify the whole 100%. That's your saving grace here. Most people need only partial corroboration to believe the whole.

So where do INTPs fit in to it? Well, our seeking of truth actually comes in handy here. We're better equipped to figure out what truths to keep in and what small percentage to manipulate to reach some desired goal of said lies. So we have the potential to pull off some convincing lies that may never be discovered.

However, we may not have the stones to make many attempts. Telling a lie is a gamble. It's perhaps better suited for adrenaline junkies than any one personality type.

 

[Adamastor]

I hate lies.

This makes me feel pretty bad with myself, since honesty if of high value for me, every little lie that was born in my mouth hurts me pretty bad.

This sucks, because I can't imagine a happy end for a human being who never lied in its whole life.

 

[Oblivious]

From: http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?p=56476#post56476

A Lie is a psychological tool designed to hide the truth from a person. Like all tools, it is inherently amoral.

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_absolutism

Graded absolutism

Further information: Moral dilemma
Many Christians regard Christian theology as teaching a hierarchy of moral absolutes — a view called graded absolutism.[4] Here, if there is a conflict between two absolutes, the duty to obey the higher one exempts one from the duty to the lower one. And the order is duty to God > duty to fellow humans > duty to property.[citation needed] The Greatest commandment is the cornerstone of this moral system. Under this system, Corrie ten Boom was morally justified to lie to Nazis about the Jews her family was hiding, because protecting lives is a higher moral value than telling the truth to murderers. Norman Geisler defends this view in his book Christian Ethics (Baker Book House, 1981). [5]

 

[Excellent]

I used to lie more when I was younger, and I could do it convincingly. When I lie now they're usually very small and insignificant lies.

 

[Aristocrat Porn]

As I sat on my couch, playing the video game Rock Band, I thought of this:

Might certain types be more conducive to a given behavior?

For example, I have a nasty tendency to lie about school and other such topics to my parents. I was wondering if my INTP personality might predispose me to this. Now I know what you will all say: something along the lines of John Locke and tabula rasa and so forth, but I feel that the characteristics of an INTP are conducive to this behavior.

Let's look at two portions of the abbreviation INTP:

I-Introverted. We dislike confronting people who would persecute or otherwise mistreat us for our behavior.

NT-Rational Thought Group. We tend to be very fast thinkers (I know I am) and therefore we can quickly come up with a believable lie that will get us out of the supposed trouble. As I can not get into any of your minds by any method known to me, I am not sure if I am committing a fallacy here, but I know that I tend to imagine a scenario in my head in which I tell the truth and am punished. Therefore, my /I/NTP nature wants me to avoid this situation.

Therefore, I feel that my personality predisposes me toward lying. While I know this could never hold up in court, I was hoping for your opinions.

Thank you,

Universe34

You flat out don't understand mbti. Introversion doesn't mean avoidance of confrontation. I have no idea where you got that from but its bullshit. Trait present in both introverts and extroverts. Completely unrelated to either.


Now i agree with you that you do it out of a short term analysis where the trade off is unquestionable. But perhaps if you take some time to look through a macro analysis, that builds a dysfunctional relation with your family that won't lead anywhere you'll like. So in the long term it could be better if you were honest and took the time to talk to them over things.


I'd say could because i don't know your parents. Maybe they aren't open to dialogue, maybe they would behave terribly about the whole thing and then it would be better for you to keep it this way. Your call to make thought.

 

[Aristocrat Porn]

I hate lies.

This makes me feel pretty bad with myself, since honesty if of high value for me, every little lie that was born in my mouth hurts me pretty bad.

This sucks, because I can't imagine a happy end for a human being who never lied in its whole life.

This on the other hand is related to being an intp. Doesn't mean intps are less lilkely to lie (they probably aren't) but the fact is since intps tend to chew on things for a long time and still analyze conversations from as long as days ago in their heads, a lie could be very bothersome because you could be constantly rethinking about the whole thing and trying to improve it or make sure you got it covered (perhaps more than other types would). That could make you a better liar, however. Would probably depend on how you deal with the pressure that lying puts on you, if you do so poorly it could make you a worse liar.

 

[Gluon the Ferengi]

Telling the truth selectively is usually a better deal than lying outright. If done skillfully, you can both hide the information and cover your ass at the same time in the instance of discovery.

If you understand what the other person expects, its easy to get out of the situation.

If some social person asks: "What did you do last weekend?"
You say: "I hung out with my friends."
The social person interprets your answer with their expectations.
They need never know that the 'friends' were your favorite literary and video game characters.

If an outright lie is the best approach, I can pull it off pretty well. Most people are very poor at interpreting my behavior because I am not very expressive in public. A neutral casual voice and face plus seeming at ease and unconcerned about the question, and giving a simple, abrupt answer usually does the trick. And if they press things, let them get your attention and look at them like you're wondering why they're persisting with this.

 

[DesertSmeagle]

I used to lie constantly to my highschool sports teammates..i disliked most of them haha. They would ask "hey u wana come party with us tonite?" and id say "I have to go work at my grandparents" or" i have to watch my little bro"...lying became an art to me because of my social anxiety haha...U gotta get inside peoples heads and know how they will react to your lie. Then u have to make it believable hha.

 

[SpaceYeti]

I figured out that I don't have to put as much energy into relationships, or anything, if I simply tell the truth all the time. I get in trouble for being honest sometimes, or how I word it, but oh well. It's true. Deal with it.

 

[typus]

I guess I have a sort of utilitarian approach to lying, if it helps people (not just me!!!) I lie.

 

[Cavallier]

But what is that? Someone notices that there are no safety measures at all, people are not used to criminals anymore and are easy to deceive. The profit is high, the risk is low - only his conscience telling him that disrupting a cooperative society is not a very good thing to do.

I was discussing this notion the other day. Even when a social group is made up of "good" people who collectively follow the rules and are oriented around the benefit of the group as apposed to the individual there is always the potential for a greedy bastard. That greedy bastard often benefits the most by being surrounded by a group focused on the well being of the whole.

 

[onthewindowstand]

I am pretty much a world class liar. Thankfully i know no one here IRL or i would no longer be world class. But maybe the ability to think a lot helps someone be a good liar? It would make sense, someone thinking through all of the possibilities of something and being able to present the most appealing one to someone.

 

[SpaceYeti]

I guess I have a sort of utilitarian approach to lying, if it helps people (not just me!!!) I lie.

Lies do not help in informing people such that they can make informed, rational decisions. You're disrespecting people whenever you lie to people. Though, there are those people who are a bit too immature to handle truth, but I figure that's their problem, not mine. I'm not going to allow their self-deception to bring me down, too. It's the truth or bust for me.

 

[typus]

Lies do not help in informing people such that they can make informed, rational decisions. You're disrespecting people whenever you lie to people. Though, there are those people who are a bit too immature to handle truth, but I figure that's their problem, not mine. I'm not going to allow their self-deception to bring me down, too. It's the truth or bust for me.

Have you not heard? Ignorance is bliss!

 

[onthewindowstand]

Have you not heard? Ignorance is bliss!

Refer back to someone's belief in God.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

My persona is a lie.

 

[Agent of Chaos]

There are those who claim that the best lie is the most outrageous concoction someone's creativity makes up. That's based on the notion that if the "lie-er's" story is wild enough then the "lie-ee" will believe it because "it'd too crazy to make up!". This of course is false.

The best lie is at least 95% true. That's because more often than not some corroboration or contradiction to whatever story you tell will eventually come to light. If it's the former, the rest of your story is more likely to be believed. So the more you can use truth in your lie, the better your odds that it will be corroberation rather than contradiction.

You must remember one important thing:

99+% of the population won't try and verify the whole 100%. That's your saving grace here. Most people need only partial corroboration to believe the whole.

So where do INTPs fit in to it? Well, our seeking of truth actually comes in handy here. We're better equipped to figure out what truths to keep in and what small percentage to manipulate to reach some desired goal of said lies. So we have the potential to pull off some convincing lies that may never be discovered.

However, we may not have the stones to make many attempts. Telling a lie is a gamble. It's perhaps better suited for adrenaline junkies than any one personality type.

Here are two ways of lying without telling any falsehoods at all:

1)Tell the truth (the whole truth if you must, otherwise just what your listener needs to know), but tell it in such a way your listener just can't (or won't) believe you. This is actually lot tricker than most people think. It has one major advantage over any other way...You DID tell the truth, you can't help that your listener didn't believe you. And you also avoid getting trapped by a lie.

2)Lying by omission. Politicans do this all the time.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

INTPs can lie just like any other type, but INTPs are among the least likely. We are not spontaneous, ambitious or underhanded so very rarely do we have a reason to lie in the first place. INTPs like to take the path of least resistance so if that means lying we will do it, otherwise lying creates necessary complications. Lastly we have the ability to see through social bullshit and don't feel the need to imitate others' pretentious behavior (unless we are displaying our pseudo-intellectual tendencies ).

Here are two ways of lying without telling any falsehoods at all:

1)Tell the truth (the whole truth if you must, otherwise just what your listener needs to know), but tell it in such a way your listener just can't (or won't) believe you. This is actually lot tricker than most people think. It has one major advantage over any other way...You DID tell the truth, you can't help that your listener didn't believe you. And you also avoid getting trapped by a lie.

2)Lying by omission. Politicans do this all the time.

I used to think that way, being my INTP loophole finding self. But I've matured a little and come to the conclusion that intentional deception is still lying.

 

[Derocrates]

A good lie also constitutes good usage of emotion in one's voice and subtle and complimentary body language, hand motions, and other slight mannerisms. Being that most of us are thinkers, could it be that we miss the notion of the feeling in a lie as we search for the raw facts?

One of the best ways to catch a liar is to pretend to initially believe what they said, bring it up in the future in a reasonably related event/idea and juxtapose the two situations for accuracy.

I'm not sure if any of you have seen the movie Good Will Hunting (Best two hours of your life) but in that movie there is a scene where Will is telling this girl a lie about brothers that he does not have; he names 12 of them. The girl in disbelief tells him to name them all again--he misses one in his list. This would be a good example of how to catch someone. I think I tell the truth too often and often bust liars flat out to get amusement out of lying myself. So I guess being honest but in a devious way. Like when I'm either telling the truth (her cooking just wasn't up to par, should have stuck with cake) or when I catch someone in a lie and give em' crap for it.

 

[Vrecknidj]

Defining "lie" turns out to be taxing. There are, of course, associations with deception, and there are associations with falsehood.

I was once discussing with someone whether make-up is a lie, whether dying one's hair is a lie, whether saying "fine" as a response to "How are you?" is a lie, etc.

She wasn't interested in being called out on her own behaviors. But, they're interesting questions.

I don't know that being an Introvert or an NT is something that increases the likelihood of someone being a liar. I also wonder about the degree of lies.

That said, I wonder if most sociopaths are introverts?

Dave

 

[SpaceYeti]

Have you not heard? Ignorance is bliss!

I've also heard Santa Clause delivers toys once a year to the good girls and boys. I don't believe something just because someone said it to me, especially after learning that, in fact, it's not true.

 

[SpaceYeti]

Defining "lie" turns out to be taxing. There are, of course, associations with deception, and there are associations with falsehood.

I was once discussing with someone whether make-up is a lie, whether dying one's hair is a lie, whether saying "fine" as a response to "How are you?" is a lie, etc.

She wasn't interested in being called out on her own behaviors. But, they're interesting questions.

I don't know that being an Introvert or an NT is something that increases the likelihood of someone being a liar. I also wonder about the degree of lies.

That said, I wonder if most sociopaths are introverts?

Dave

No, the definition of "lie" is pretty cut and dry. "Saying something that isn't true".

It's used as a synonym for "dishonesty", but I think it;s a mistake. I try to avoid it. I prefer dishonesty. Technically, a lie is simply saying something untrue, which you can, and probably, do all the time on accident. Nothing's wrong with that, it's just a mistake. Dishonesty, on the other hand... that's the thing I despise.

 

[Anthile]

I always thought the definition of lying was to speak something which differs from what one has accepted as true. At the core of any lie is always the intention to differ from the truth, which is why lying has such a bad reputation in the first place. By your definition, everyone who is wrong about something is automatically a liar which would be quite bizarre.

 

[SpaceYeti]

Which is why most of the dictionary definitions include the intent to deceive, but simply saying something false is still technically a lie (hence "technically").

 

[IfloatTHRUlife]

Plain and simple, lying is wrong, but there is a difference between being wrong and doing wrong. I personally used to lie quite often when i was younger, sometimes to avoid conflict, but most often it was just me making up stories on the spot to entertain myself and others. I never really felt bad about that since it was mostly just in fun, seeing how far i could stretch the stories and have people believe me, which was not really hurting anyone but myself, setting up a false persona with funny or interesting stories.

Eventually telling stories just seemed childish and i stopped bothering. Now i have a kind of love hate relationship with lying, i love the actual ability to "manipulate" peoples perceptions but just cant stand being deceitful. In fact, im not 100% sure, but i think almost every substantial lie i have told in the past few years, i have went back and actually told the person i lied to.

As for Intps being more likely to lie, i dont know, i would say that all people lie, some people just aren't in as many situations where they have to lie about things serious enough to consider themselves liars. And people who do find themselves in a lot of situations where they think its necessary most likely lie more or less depending on how often they can lie successfully.

In conclusion, I don't think Intps tend to lie more than other types, they might just be better at it. (which has already been posted over and over by previous people in this thread, i just felt like babbling on about something i find close to home LOL)

 

[nexion]

I rarely ever lie, unless I perceive some sort of major or minor threat to my person if I did not lie.

I've also heard Santa Clause delivers toys once a year to the good girls and boys. I don't believe something just because someone said it to me, especially after learning that, in fact, it's not true.

No, I'm pretty sure that it is true that ignorance is bliss. That just doesn't mean we should live in ignorance though. Truthfully, the more I learn about the world, and structures, and government, and people, the more depressed I become. Yet, I do not desire to stop learning. I wonder if this is a self-destructive course?

 

[SpaceYeti]

I rarely ever lie, unless I perceive some sort of major or minor threat to my person if I did not lie.


No, I'm pretty sure that it is true that ignorance is bliss. That just doesn't mean we should live in ignorance though. Truthfully, the more I learn about the world, and structures, and government, and people, the more depressed I become. Yet, I do not desire to stop learning. I wonder if this is a self-destructive course?

I'm exactly the opposite. I hate not knowing. Lacking knowledge upsets me. I'm much happier when I'm learning than when I'm not.

 

[nexion]

I think that is true of our type. But I highly doubt that such things as knowledge and intelligence could really bestow on true any true joy. Whereas people who don't spend time learning about this highly backwards world and thinking for hours on them, don't really have much reason to be unhappy, as long as they have their basic needs met.

OK, whoa, shit. I know that someone is going to try to crucify me for this post.

*puts flame suit on*

Ok, ready. I don't necessarily stand by what I just said, but I do at least find it true that most rational thinkers are usually more unhappy, and more often unhappy, than those who just seek hedonistic pleasures.

 

[SpaceYeti]

... Learning is not a hedonistic pleasure? How does knowing about thermodynamics going to help me? I'm a soldier?

Actually, I'm a fueler, so I can actually use it to help not blow up the JP8 I'm hauling, but how about aerodynamics? I can't put that to any use in my foreseeable future. What's the point in knowing about it?

 

[nexion]

... Learning is not a hedonistic pleasure? How does knowing about thermodynamics going to help me? I'm a soldier?

Actually, I'm a fueler, so I can actually use it to help not blow up the JP8 I'm hauling, but how about aerodynamics? I can't put that to any use in my foreseeable future. What's the point in knowing about it?

Perhaps, perhaps not. I view it as far less hedonistic than other things, at least.

So then, don't learn it? I mean, if you want to be a pragmatist about anything, then there really is no point in learning something we don't intend to ever use. But that would also imply that the pursuit of pleasure in itself is useless.

Which, truthfully, I don't ever learn anything to derive any substance of pleasure. I learn because I'm curious as to how things, even if irrelevant to my life, work. Or, I might learn an entire system just so I could exploit it. :P

There are far more useful things to do with knowledge, I find, than with other things, even if one were to view it as "irrelevant." Maybe you would one day actually fly planes, and then you would be glad that you learned aerodynamics beforehand.

 

[SpaceYeti]

Satisfying your curiosity is not pleasant?

 

[nexion]

I honestly think we should end this discussion right now, before we get into a useless semantics argument over the difference between "pleasure" and "joy." At least on my own subjective level, I view the two as entirely different.

 

[SpaceYeti]

I don't. The only difference is how long either lasts.

 

[nexion]

But perhaps there is also a difference in the substance. Happiness comes in light of temporal comfort or appeasement; true joy comes despite the hardships or despair. It is a sort of inner peace. If they are different substance and duration, then it must be concluded that they are entirely different. But from whence does joy come?

 

[SpaceYeti]

What is pleasure? When you feel a general sense of good, right? How do you feel when you're happy? Something besides good? The only difference between pleasure and happiness/joy is that pleasure has a specific outside source, and happiness/joy is from a grand series of outside sources. I mean, come on, if you life a life where you're treated unfairly on a regular basis and everything you work for is more work than it really should be compared to everyone else, you're not happy. If, on the other hand, you're justly rewarded for your efforts and can take some time to enjoy the benefits thereof, you're probably happy. Any interior happiness factor is simply an aspect of personality. I'm a generally jolly guy, but if I were constantly shit on, I doubt that'd be the case for much longer.

 

[Thaklaar]

I mean, come on, if you life a life where you're treated unfairly on a regular basis and everything you work for is more work than it really should be compared to everyone else, you're not happy. If, on the other hand, you're justly rewarded for your efforts and can take some time to enjoy the benefits thereof, you're probably happy. Any interior happiness factor is simply an aspect of personality. I'm a generally jolly guy, but if I were constantly shit on, I doubt that'd be the case for much longer.

My Buddhist friends would disagree with you. But I'm not as enlightened as them (nor as happy.)

 

[SpaceYeti]

My Buddhist friends would disagree with you. But I'm not as enlightened as them (nor as happy.)

Good for them. Psychologists would disagree with them. It doesn't matter who does or believes what, it matter's who's actually correct. Or, at least, who's closest to correct.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

I'd say pleasure is something you could attain at any given moment through indulgence whereas happiness is a result of immediate or long term life fulfillment. Pleasure is subjective while happiness is objective.

 

[Saeros]

Good for them. Psychologists would disagree with them. It doesn't matter who does or believes what, it matter's who's actually correct. Or, at least, who's closest to correct.

What do you mean by that? do you mean that psychologists would disagree that they're happy, or that happiness can be found that way? Happiness is too abstract, and intangible to be quantified, and analysed. How can you really tell if someone is happy? how can you tell if one person is happier that another? There's no "correct answer" in terms of what makes us happy, because it differs between people.