I's are fine with small groups. and in leadership, you don't have to work with so much people--simply your trusted ones. You do have to meet lots of people and give speeches though. F is not ok with leader. They're too short sighted and can't see beyond what they percieve as morally right. P is virtue of patience..
Leading I can do if I have to. Managing is something I hate - the mountainous minutiae of paperwork and having to have "little talks" with various people and organising endless stupid meetings which accomplish nothing.
Not to mention that I don't like actually being held responsible for the combined output of a bunch of people I have no idea how to get work out of. What if they goof off? What if they screw up? How is this suddenly all my fault?
On the other hand, I can look at something that needs to be done and say "Right. Jack and Jill, you're on archives. Find me something we can use. Dick and Dora, go scrounge me up some customer requirements. Sarah and Simon, whip this computing infrastructure into shape. I'll go and squeeze some more time and money out of the Big Boss. Everyone give me an update as soon as you've got a rough idea what our status on these things is. Let's do it."
I've only had one experience when I was leading something that I actually cared about, and it went really well. (Here's where I'm not sure I'm an intp.) All my decisions were very flexible; everything could be argued against, and if they proved to have enough good reasons, I would put it to a vote to the rest to the team. I took pride in the fact that if someone had a complaint or question, they wouldn't hesitate to ask me. Looking back, I'm pretty sure it was because I supplied logical reasons for my decisions in a way that didn't offend them, so they weren't afraid they would be shot down or dismissed.
I've found that I enjoy being a leader when I have been put onto the task. I've been told I'm pretty good at it. I think it has to do with being able to pick out individuals strengths and weaknesses very quickly and assigning tasks that they're best suited for.
How effective are INTP leaders? I'm guessing not very.
The dominant and auxiliary functions (Ti and Ne) don't really seem "leader-like". By that I mean they don't have that "vision" nor that "drive" needed to "move" others. And the only ones that are more of this sort that INTP's have are the tertiary and inferior functions (Si, Fe); which are also "low-quality material" compared to Ni and Te. Furthermore, these are the tertiary and inferior functions! Therefore, a double in weakness.
So, by this line of thinking, INTP's are one of the least capable leaders.
The ranking being:
1. ENTJ & INTJ (Te Ni * *)
2. ENFJ & INFJ (Fe Ni * *)
3. ESTJ & ISTJ (Te Si * *)
4. ESFJ & ISFJ (Fe Si * *)
5. ESFP & ISFP ( * * Te Ni)
6. ESTP & ISTP (* * Fe Ni)
7. ENFP & INFP (* * Te Si)
8. ENTP & INTP (* * Fe Si)
I'm probably wrong here but I'm simply displaying it so someone could consider to try and enlighten me.
hmm me leading? I'd prefer not to. I don't usually like the role. I was in charge of some Spanish kids for our nuestra familia night. It was a Spanish registration night. I like working with young kids because they listen to me and find me fun at the same time. That may partially be my strong F though. I think what makes me good with them is that I play with them and at the same time, I don't let them get out of control or force any of them to be social. I swear one of them was a young INTP. She was quiet from the beginning, observed what we did, and seemed to just want to blend in. I told her she didn't have to come play until she wanted to. 20 minutes later, after observing, she decided it may be fun to play and she did.
I basically only take a leadership role when younger kids are involved because I'm good at making them feel safe too. One of those kids had an asthma attack and I told her "You will be okay." I could tell the kid heard "You will be okay I will make sure of it." At first I asked the sister what we she do, but I was the only one there who knew anything about asthma so I took control. Calmly, I kept the kid calm and found someone who could contact the parents. Everyone was very happy with my leadership that night, in keeping the kids under control and keeping anyone from panicking in an emergency situation.
A little more on topic with leading. I'll explain my role in the drumline. W is the actual section leader; however, sometimes, some of the freshman are intimidated by him. He's nice and friendly, but he's always doing so much. Sometimes, he teases you for not knowing something. "I'm going to make you cry if you don't know this" or "Okay we're going to play this, then I'm going to yell because you don't know it" before we even played a note. He never actually yells but he lets on that he's annoyed. It's easier to come to me for some of them sometimes. W also comes to me quite a bit to ask if I'll take care of some kind of maintenance. Not just him either, the percussion teacher seems to rely on me a lot too. I'm not in a leadership position, but I do lead some of them in the right direction. I notice mistakes and help correct them, and I'm always happy to help someone with music. If I were actually leading the group though, I couldn't do it. I need time to work out my part and I couldn't play it and listen to everyone else's to find out if we were flamming. I couldn't come teach a part to someone when I'm working on mine. In fact, even though I'm the only other senior, I usually let one of the other kids lead then they have me evaluate their leadership skills and inform them on how they could improve.
Could I learn to lead them? Absolutely. I don't think natural born leaders exist. Will people follow me? Yes. Do people come ask me for help? Yes. More so than the leaders? sometimes. I'd rather help one on one then in a group setting though.
I bet thats rambly. I'm need sleep. I'll come back and edit this later probably.
As a college instructor, I am in a leadership role for most of the day. When I think about the group regardless of their archetype, I always think about their strengths and needs, as well as the nature of the work to be done. Specifically with respect to the SJs, they do not like change for change's sake. If change is necessary, they need structure, clarity, and an easy to follow process that leads to a well-defined outcome or product. Without these workerbees of the world, our visions and creative solutions would never see the light of day! If leadership is not working for you, challenge yourself to being more in tune with group dynamics so that you are meeting both the emotional as well as intellectual needs of your group.
In the army I found myself in leadership positions lots of times, but always for short periods of time focusing around a specific task.
I was the most experienced (and smartest, to be honest) person in my commanders course, and I could always see the most efficient way to get any task done, so I naturally took control of my crew whenever there was work to be done (even my commander, he would literally come and ask me what he should do). I was the "guru" they say INTPs are in their fields, everyone thought it was because I had all this experience, but it was really just because I was smarter than everyone around me. Leadership is all about motivation I think - no one can lead if they don't want to. My motivation for leadership, at least in the army was always laziness; I just wanted to get it over with as fast as possible, and I saw everyone else as incompetent.
I also have a sort of ISTP streak when I'm working, and I was an artilleryman, which is really just a glorified mechanic so I was really really good at my job. I'm also physically very strong, which I guess projects more dominance or something like that.
My strengths as a leader - I can vividly visualize the most efficient way to get anything done, and the ways to increase efficiency in systems. People tend to look up to me as the all-knowing-guru. I lead by example, I usually do around 70-80% of the work myself, mainly because I just don't trust anyone else to do anything as good or as fast as I know I could. I don't look for any social dominance, so I usually don't have anyone competing with me, because they know I just don't care. I'm a good teacher, so I was always teaching people how to do their jobs better, I think if I had a few more months with my crew I could have turned them into a truly amazing crew.
My weaknesses - I hardly trust anyone, I sometimes over-micromanage, I'm terrible with time schedules (I always get the job done best, but never on time). I have no social skills, so my status depends entirely on my standing as the expert.
I'm not too good with people, when I'm in work mode I just see them as tools. Stupid, incompetent, inefficient tools.
Okay, that was a bit of an exaggeration (just a tiny bit, mind you), but with time I learn how to coordinate everyone in the most efficient way.
Anyways that was a long time ago, I think I've become much better with people since then. I've consciously been working on improving my social skills, I think I would make a much better leader today.
But alas, I finished my army service two days ago () and now the only thing I need to care about or lead is myself! YAY FREEDOM!!!!
I don't know about leadership but i would rather dictate a situation then lead others through it and by dictate i mean do everything by myself. For the most part im not a follower nor a leader if it was up to me i would never be in a situation were i would have to be one or the other.
I'm good at locating need and aligning them with something that fits the need, I want anyone I direct to be able to do the same. I don't find energy to be as important as word stress and finding the right person and right selling point by asking the right questions. Yes sometimes people say no but usually when people say no to a salesperson they don't realize what they're saying no to completely yet and if they give me an opportunity I prefer to at least fully inform them so they know first, because, once they know they might change their mind. And that's... also how I like to direct the people under me to sell. Not push something on people that they don't need, I replace the word sell with consult. INTPs love asking why - so do salespeople. Lots of times the answer ends up being something that's wrong, maybe it's cheaper than they thought, maybe it'll give them something they didn't realize, so on and so forth, might save them money. But as far as being extroverted no it's not loving people haha it's the same conversation over and over and over again. Most sales managers and trainers are extroverted and in your face, that's not really... my way. Maybe over time it has made me appear to be more extroverted but, eh nah. I hate meetings and such.
When our boss went out and I came in, not knocking him, but one of the first things I did was take down every single motivational poster in the office, provide more training sheets with objection answers and when to hangup sheets, start ordering lots and lots of free coffee for everybody, and doing constant weekly spiff contests for people that set the most appointments to encourage more pipeline building. I want to increase efficiency. Those motivational posters don't help anyone feel better. Knowing what they're talking about and having more money does though.
I would gladly be one of YOUR sales monkeys but every time I have tried it I was shot down by the typical manager that you described whom you took over for. They were really into the in your face, motivational, and personable styles of teaching sales. I have yet to encounter a true sales engineer but if i were to encounter one I would most assuredly WANT to work for him/her.
In regards to leadership and training who is your favorite character/who you identify with most from Glengarry Glenross?
PS- I am more of a Claussen man when it comes to pickles. The never heated Claussen pickle more resembles the restaurant style that comes with a deli sandwhich. Vlassic is ok but not in the same league IMO.
I had an exgirlfriend yeah that, got mad at me once and said "you're a person that should've taken what you are and applied it to a piece of paper and applied it to people instead because of the direction your life went. It's a shame, people aren't things. You're a special kind of ****** up, go to college", it hurt my feelings.
I am thinking maybe a new thread in the Introit subforum is more appropriate for further discussion but idk I am not very keen on how forums should be laid out. People are touchy about the archives here though.
Hm glengarry glenross I can't really.... I dunno. Definitely not the angry "third prize is your fired" guy hahaha. That guy was a bully. Those guys are.... they mean well haha. What they do does work for many people, I know it never really got me anywhere with it. I thought watching them work was like watching a magician though. They're like.... haha like racoons or something. It took me a long time to realize I was getting there by analyzing it and they're just.... that's just how they ARE. It was forever before I realized the difference.
Alec Baldwin's charcter (the slicked back hair 3rd place your fired guy you mentioned) strikes me as an ES type and they seem to be much more common in sales and the business world so they just kind of grasp those concepts naturally. Their tactics make sense to one another and they are able to just get it done.
This was a reason why I never strongly pursued sales, thinking I wouldn't be able to keep up with all of the "people people" but you have shown me that a more tactical analytical approach is possible. Dealing with all those "people people" is still a turn off however.
They're the easiest to manage in sales though! It's not like they really need to be trained or watched outside of "these are the rules. Follow them.", only thing I really watch those sorts for is making sure they aren't steamrolling other people or misleading anyone else on smoke breaks and such. Sharks they can be. And it's totally on purpose haha.
How long did you have to put in your dues as a salesman before becoming a manager?
Did you have challenges as an INTP underling with mostly ES type managers and peers?
How important is networking, from your experience?
The cutthroat-ness of the entry level positions and the Sharks who frequent those waters are what scare me away. As a manager have you seen salesmen that more fit your sales engineering mold rise through the ranks? If so, what techniques did they use in fending off the sharks?
Hm. I dunno. I messed up a lot, I was awful at it for a very long time but I stuck around anyway. People come and go a lot. Sales is a strange field, for ones good at it they don't much care about the managers, I didn't, the manager for them is viewed more like a coworker with a different job description than a boss. They may even make more money than the manager and have more job security in some situations. As a sales manager I want to make myself irrelevant to them. But in a good way. Best way to fend off the coworkers.... eh, if they're mediocre or new or whatever (which most of the time they are), ignore them. They don't sign the paycheck, they have the same job they aren't over anybody, it's easy to just step outside of all of it. ES managers are alright but they never understood that I wasn't going to speak with confidence until I knew exactly what I was talking about. They explain things correctly but it took so long for me to word what they were telling me the right way in my head for me to understand it. They do indeed know what they're talking about it's just the wording they use to convey it, I had to reword to myself a lot of times. I had a huge problem with overcomplicating things that didn't need to be overcomplicated. Now I just kinda coast through the day and find it all very dull. Most of my job is still selling, I don't want to get rusty on them haha. I want to go to school though. You end up just feeling like you're repeating yourself all of the time and replaying a movie every day. Starting out I screwed up in just about every way imaginable and I couldn't sell anything. I took bad advice, I couldn't talk to people, it was just.... oof. I think that's sort of why I stayed in a way. The thing about sales is if you're selling, you can get away with just about anything in your job. Show up late, dress like crap, whatever. Nobody cares. And you get left alone. If not though.... ehhhhh fired. Eventually. Thing is I want a shark pit but one where everyone feels secure and they aren't eating each other, but instead just comfortable and flowing along and selling to people who need it. An efficient sales office. At the end of the day though... it's boring. I fell into it.
The introverted emotional people can be hit the hardest in a way like about a week ago this girl got cussed out and started crying said nobody had ever talked to her like that and all this and I'm thinking "woah buddy do you have a lot to get used to if you stay with this then..." but had to explain you know it happens sometimes she shouldn't take it personally it's just a voice on the phone shrug it off go smoke a cigarette or whatever. Asked her if he asked to be put on a do not call list, she said no, said I'd put it in someone else's list to call him back and bug him some more just to be a jerk with a note about what happened "whoops sorry didn't know" that made her feel better. Haha.
Thank you for the advice. i don't think I'm really cut out for entry level sales but I know that it involves the developing of skills that can last a lifetime. I think I will give it a shot at some point but most likely as an entrepreneur who has to sell or else won't eat. I don't think I could do it just for a paycheck.
What other interests do you have?
What career alternatives have you considered for a time in the future?
To keep relevant to the original thread topic. Do you see yourself continuing to be a leader or it is more or less circumstantial currently and in a different environment you would be more of a subordinate by nature?
I like computers! I'm not educated in them but I'm always interested in what sort of stuff is going to come out in the future. I don't really like being subordinate. As far as leading I like the idea of leading in a way that I create something that runs itself and then I can disappear.
I'm usually wired I drink tons of coffee and red bull and smoke like a freight train. An INTP person, if that test is accurate, hm, how I ended up this way.... I used to be a very very angry person deep inside. I wanted to learn how to read people better. I'm not like that anymore. I'd guess I'm not a person FOR leadership but I'm not a person not for leadership either, like they aren't doing worse with me there. I am there sort of circumstancially, like they asked me to when the other guy left. I try my best. Sales are up.
I think that ultimately ties into the theme of the thread in that INTPs can and will lead if there are no better options, they don't like being told what to do by a superior, and once in charge they try to delegate as much responsibility as possible so as to allow for more thinking about how efficiency and the overall system can be improved. Leaving the true managing of employees to ES types and the like.
That sounds like what I have heard the prototypical INTP "leader" to be. if you want to begin learning about computers this forum is overflowing with peeps who are/were in the industry and there are countless threads on how to get started. Happy trails! I have enjoyed your presence on here quite a bit so far.