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INTPs and Leadership

Enne

Consistently Inconsistent
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#1
I was just wondering... have any of you guys been in a position of leadership? Apart from the traditional hogwash about leadership being this extroverted birthright, I want to know what it's like for strong introverts to be in a position of authority. Do you think that being an INTP gives you something over other people when it comes to taking charge? I think that as an INTP, especially having both the N and P function would make you a much fairer and more compitent leader than your average SJ. Since the Rationals make up 10% of the population and we do so much to impact the other 90%, how do you get SJs to do your bidding? XD
 

NoID10ts

aka Noddy
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
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#2
I've been in positions of leadership and have found myself to be horrible at it. Besides the obvious uncomfortableness with being an introvert at the center of attention, I found that I am indecisive and tend to second guess myself constantly. It's a much better thing for me to be in an advisory role, where I have the leaders ear, but not the people's attention.
 

Anthile

Steel marks flesh
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Jan 10, 2009
Messages
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#3
My opinion on leadership:

E better than I
N better than S
T or F depends on the goal
J better than P


Of course leadership is nothing one cannot learn. From what I know INTPs don't like it to control other people and doing a job that you don't like leads to average results.
 

Enne

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#4
My opinion on leadership:

E better than I
N better than S
T or F depends on the goal
J better than P


Of course leadership is nothing one cannot learn. From what I know INTPs don't like it to control other people and doing a job that you don't like leads to average results.
I actually think P might be better than J. Something about how people with strong P's are able to see things more clearly, without any preformed bias...P's can just listen, not listen as in waiting for their opponent to finish so they can squash their views with their own, but listen as in actually listen and weigh out a good/optimal option. I find that too many leaders are harshly inflexible, and want to establish that their way is the way.
 

Grove

Wait.....now what?
Joined
May 1, 2009
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#5
I agree with Anthile here, I am currently working on a project where I am performing a leadership role. I say performance because that is exactly what it is. I can lead them when necessary, but I prefer not to because it sucks up a lot of my energy. I seem to be pulling it off fairly well for the time being, but it isn't something I want to cultivate. I am sooo much happier when I can just come up with ideas or create the tools needed to advance the project without having to teach or oversee the use of them.
 

Felan

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#6
I think Abraham Lincoln was one of if not the greatest American presidents. He is commonly considered to be an INTP.

I think if the passion and conviction for a particular mission were high enough there are few that can rival INTP direct all their energies to that task.

Also I am leader in my work environment, even though I don't hold position for it. Being a leader is to my mind bringing out the best in those around you and keeping things moving toward an objective. A leader exerts influence even when not in a position and leaders can often find getting promotions trivial. I avoid taking management positions though because I hate and suck at managing, seems too closely akin to bookkeeping.
 

Ermine

is watching and taking notes
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#7
The book Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin is a fascinating perspective on how Lincoln came to be a leader and how he lead. I'd recommend it to anyone. Amazing book both as a biography and an insight on leadership for people who aren't expected to be leaders.

On topic, I've been in a youth leader position in my church for about 5 years. I didn't ever lead more than 10 people at a time, and I lead more by example than controlling people, but I think it worked out pretty well. It helped me get out of my comfort zone a bit. And in school group projects, I often end up taking the leadership role if no one else will.
 

fullerene

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Messages
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#8
I like the ENxJs when dealing with leading people to get "stuff" done, but the ENxPs whenever people are the "stuff." ENTPs are kinda nice cause I get the feeling they would sit and listen to every person, pick out something they would be good at and enjoy doing, and set up some role in which they could use it. ENFPs are so clever and subtle at moving people to change the room's atmosphere and do whatever else will help out another person that nobody else even feels like they're being used or working.

I've only known one ENTJ and one ENFJ (who was sorta evil), though, so experience is very limited.
 

Devercia

Deleterious Defenistrator
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#9
I often break down my view of leadership into two steps: establishing leadership and
utilizing leadership.

In my experiance, if there is a room of strangers who are set about a task, I wouldbecome the leader when I demonstrate an understanding of the subject. There may sometimes be the SJ take charge type people in conflict with this, but unless they demonstrate competency, the group tends to view them as blowhards. I find that even extroverts tend to be timid to take responsibility over complete strangers. If you can show you know something, you will have established an ethos. In the absence of knowledge either of their situation, task, or enviroment, people tend to follow ethos.

In a position of authority, the INTP leadership style is like that of a playingcard game. They have a hand of cards (generated by the subordinates, not of them) and go about placing them where they would do the most good. As a leader, I often find my job is to assign responsibilities based on skills, and then utilize the disorganized mass of information and products those subordinates produce to achieve the goal. IN other words, subordinates are generators of raw materials with some becoming leaders or subgroups organically. As a P, those generators are set to do what they are best at, not what is needed most. What is needed most is defined by what the subordinates offer and is filled in by the leader's flexibility, not by the needs of a preset plan. The planning come in when the resources have been gathered, or are foreseeable. Other types may lead by encouragement(F), by example and micromanagement(S), interfacing with other groups(E), or defining the goal while fitting the team into their vision(J).

As an INTP I find that initiative is the most important quality of a subordinate. If a subordinate does not themselves know what they are good at and does not know what to do, it is likely that their skills are not refined or apparent.
 

Beat Mango

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#10
Managing: NO. Leading: YES.

Steven Covey in the 7 Habits of Highly Effective People has a good anecdote which tells the difference between leading and managing. It's something like: a group is lost in a forest and they're trying to get their way out. They decide on a direction to start in, and come up with all sorts of innovative ways to cut through trees and branches. Anyway, the leader finds a better way to go and says, "we're going the wrong way!". The manager says, "quiet, we're making progress here!"

We're born for leadership imo, but it has to be true leadership with something we care about, not to be confused with petty management. I think we're good in a coach sort of role - I coached a sports team and loved it.
 

Toad

True King of Mushroomland!!!
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#11
I think we're good in a coach sort of role - I coached a sports team and loved it.
I think you are right. I enjoy sharing my knowledge and so am very well suited for coaching. I love seeing people learn and progress because of what I told them.
 

s0nystyle

La la la la la!
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#12
I think i'm a good leader b/c i can identify the problem in a group and find a reasonable solution to it. I enjoy confrontations and dont care about the dirty work involved with dealing with people who are unsuitable for their job. I feel that every person, INTP or not, has the ability to lead... they just need to courage to do it.
 

Concojones

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#13
J (rather than P) helps to be more decisive and convincing.

I think an INTP can be a great leader though. While I usually take the role of advisor rather than leader, I have been a fantastic leader on one occasion. My leadership style was moderating and encouraging everyone to have their say. I litterally told them I wasn't their boss but that we were all equal. I did everything to make them feel they were all in charge, and heavily stimulated and encouraged any private initiative. I more than achieved my goal of a participative culture; I was really surprised at what happened: people became HUGELY motivated/involved and quite productive. They were talking about how fantastic it was. I'm not kidding here.
 

Razare

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#14
I was freshmen class president in High School and well, I was horrible at it. The reason being I thought dances and High School as a whole as utterly stupid. In summation, I used it as an excuse to skip out on classes.

At work I occasionally fall into a leadership role where I have to train new people and I act as a quasi-manager. In a work environment, I'm slightly better at being a leader, but I rely on my Sensing and Judging functions entirely. I literally awaken some sort of normally dormant state within me and behave like an ISTJ. My job requires sensing and judging, though, not intuition nor perception. I remember when I began the job I had great difficulty doing many things, but slowly I developed my weak sensing function to a competent level.
 
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#15
I usually step up into a leadership role when no one in my group is competent enough to do it (or at least I perceive them as not being competent). I've been on student council, been a homeroom representative, and attended a youth leadership conference, all of which I liked.

As a matter of preference, though, I would much rather be the brains behind the operation, so to speak. I feel like I would be very good in an advisory position, as I'm rather good at leadership strategies if not implementation.
 

Beat Mango

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#16
J (rather than P) helps to be more decisive and convincing.

I think an INTP can be a great leader though. While I usually take the role of advisor rather than leader, I have been a fantastic leader on one occasion. My leadership style was moderating and encouraging everyone to have their say. I litterally told them I wasn't their boss but that we were all equal. I did everything to make them feel they were all in charge, and heavily stimulated and encouraged any private initiative. I more than achieved my goal of a participative culture; I was really surprised at what happened: people became HUGELY motivated/involved and quite productive. They were talking about how fantastic it was. I'm not kidding here.
I do the same thing, giving people a lot of freedom, I didn't tell them that but kind of implied it. The thing I didn't expect is that some people just can't cope in that environment - they need to be told what to do in clear steps.
 

Felan

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#17
Hmm, actually I think P is better than J at leading. Being decisive isn't all that advantageous in most situations. I think a P is better able to draw more ideas from people, build consensus, and engage as many of the people around you as possible. J's tend to piss people off and tend to make mediocre decisions because they rely on themselves more than the group.

J just gets things rolling faster, but better ideas come from the group and in beyond the first couple of steps into something yields significantly better results more quickly.
 

Android

Solyaris
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#18
I ran a crew of 12 people on a blueberry farm for two years... they all spoke Spanish exclusively and I didn't.. but I was still in charge ><. They generally did what I pointed at, and I ended taking on way more than my share of the work because they either couldn't understand what I wanted, or chose not to (18 hour days for me, 12 for them). I guess I should state that I wasn't in charge because I was the only white man.. I was in charge because I was the only person that was familiar with the farm and knew what fields needed picked at what time.. plus I was the only person that could talk to the processors, truck-drivers etc. And just for fun.. do you guys have any clue how many spiders, snakes, frogs, baby birds, etc are in your blueberry jam? I'm guessing not, because you wouldn't eat it if you did.

More to the point.. I don't think the introverted side of me particularly benefits me in leadership, but some of the other aspects of my personality certainly do. I'm very aware of efficiency for one thing.. the methods I came up with for loading boxes onto the harvesters are now used all over OR and WA. It was a 2 person job, and now it takes less time for 1 person to do it. I've been in many other leadership roles, and have never had a problem with it.. though I'm not sure what exactly about my personality benefits me or otherwise in those situations.
 

Concojones

Active Member
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#19
my leadership style was moderating and encouraging everyone to have their say. I litterally told them I wasn't their boss but that we were all equal.
I do the same thing, giving people a lot of freedom, I didn't tell them that but kind of implied it. The thing I didn't expect is that some people just can't cope in that environment - they need to be told what to do in clear steps.
If you see things aren't going exactly as planned, you could sit together, brainstorm together and finally agree on specific action. That's what I typically do. Then I am happy because they're doing what I want them to do (more or less) and they are happy because the decision is theirs. It's the fragile balance between not enough leadership (apparently your approach?) and too much leadership (pushing your own opinion too hard).

Truth is, at heart I'm rather dominant (world dominance, right? :D), but I have learnt that it has a cost (suffocating other people's involvement), and therefore I have adopted a moderating rather than commanding style. I still do err often though, but I am quick to realize and adjust. It's a learning process. :)
 

The Lurker

fighting the power
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#20
I step into a leadership position if I have to (read: everyone else in the group is too stupid or generally too unknowledgable to adequately perform the task). If I'm the leader of a group project, what generally occurs is I take 80% of the work load because I don't trust the other members to do it correctly. Just about every randomized-group project I've been in has ended up like this because I can't pick my own partners.

However, if the group is intelligent, then I feel I can perform best as a leader. If it's necessary, I turn the group into a round-table of sorts, with everyone able to give their input if they desire and the decision decided by a majority. I've realized lately that I can become quite J-like in that I'm more decisive and communicate better in these sort of groups, and so I find them undoubtedly to be the most enjoyable whether I'm in the leader role or not. It's exciting and more satisfying to work with other people you consider intelligent rather than the common dolt so frequently encountered at my school.
 

Citizen X

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#21
I think I could be a good leader if I actually found the motivation to remotely CARE about being one. That, and my tendency of always second guessing myself are detrimental for any possible leadership on my part.

I dislike "leaders", each and every single one of them. All the people I admire the most are/were loners who question(ed) figures of authority and so called "leaders". Like Richard Feynman's father told him once; the only difference between the leader and yourself is the hat and uniform.
 
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#22
I've always hated working in groups becouse they always screw everything up. Thats why I began taking on the leadership position, and i find that when ever people actually listen and do what I say we tend to get things done right and in higher quality than everyone else. So, as was said before ,when it's about something I care a bit about(like my grades or self-respect) I'm more than capable of being a good leader. When it's about something I find stupid or a waste of my precious time I just don't care enough to bother, for instance, I wouldn't be a very good baseball coach.
 

dwags222

Active Member
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Messages
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#23
i think, like citizen x was saying, there isn't much motivation. i do think intp's can potentially make great leaders, but only in situations where they are extremely motivated to reach the goal towards which they are leading.
 

QSR

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#24
I'm agreeing with many of you here. I like to be in charge of things because most people (even really smart ones) are idiots. But my leadership style is very subtle. I'll listen to what people say for a while, then I'll say one or two sentences and that will usually be the end result of the entire exercise. Of course I never get credit. And I very often get muscled out by people with more take-charge personalities than I have.

In fact that's a real constant source of frustration for me. Usually someone else with an extraverted personality will take charge of the group and I'll get marginalized. That's when I check out of the whole group, mentally at least.

There's been a lot of research done on the subject of how to lead teams, and it's been shown time and time again that you have to give the members a sense of ownership or they won't engage. Trying to command and control people doesn't work. The problem is that every group has personalities that want to naturally take charge, due to their E-Jness or whatever. Somehow you have to convince the person who is funding things (aka actually in charge) that you deserve to be listened to.

There's always going to be some douchebag who's self esteem rides on how much power he has. It's an uphill battle against these people for us to become real leaders of any group.
 

Enne

Consistently Inconsistent
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#25
There's always going to be some douchebag who's self esteem rides on how much power he has. It's an uphill battle against these people for us to become real leaders of any group.

*sigh* TELL me about it. :rolleyes:
 

Citizen X

Active Member
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#26
Commenting on us being "leaders" as long as it is guided towards one of our interests, I remember something that happened back in college.

A professional education in architecture brings you closer to all kinds of personalities, you get everything from extravagant prima donas to reserved recluses like us. Many times I had to just let go of the situation and let somebody with a more militant personality take charge of the project ad ignore any opinions or proposals that weren't his/her own.

However in one occasion I was stranded with a burned out team. We had been working on individual final projects for a month or so. Everyone was demotivate and burned beyond exhaustion and we (four people, myself included) needed to work in our last final project. What we needed to do was a proposal for the remodeling of the campus' library. Everything; facade, interiors, distribution of books, furniture, illumination, everything.

One Thursday night we got together and try to work it out, everyone is just joking around, being lazy, telling funny stories and relaxing, all of it a mixture of tiredness, dulled hormones and Red Bull. Nobody was coming up with any good ideas so I started shooting my own; a whole new design for the facade, incorporating elements of the facade itself inside the library as reading and working furniture; on the spot I designed new working stations and a brand new illumination system; new book shelves, redistributed the stairs, added a service elevator and designed the exterior landscape.

Everyone was saying things like "cool" or "wow, that's weird", but I managed to get everyone working. I tried to get them to put their own touch to my ideas so that everyone contributed in the design, but just one girl did, and it was very minimal, the rest were happy to just do as I told them.

Fast forward Monday, we show the entire thing to our professor. After we are done, he remains very quite and then asks: "who's the one who came up with all of this?"

I said: "we all did", trying to make it look like the whole team worked on the ideas and even out the fallout

But then this dumb girl said "He did"

The professor then stares at me and says: "This is very good work, I really like this project. There are some little details that need to be addressed, but on the whole, you've got yourself a very professional proposal"

I felt like a million dollars for the whole week :D

But my point is when needed, we can take control of the situation and guide it to its success.
 

Enne

Consistently Inconsistent
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#27
Commenting on us being "leaders" as long as it is guided towards one of our interests, I remember something that happened back in college.

A professional education in architecture brings you closer to all kinds of personalities, you get everything from extravagant prima donas to reserved recluses like us. Many times I had to just let go of the situation and let somebody with a more militant personality take charge of the project ad ignore any opinions or proposals that weren't his/her own.

However in one occasion I was stranded with a burned out team. We had been working on individual final projects for a month or so. Everyone was demotivate and burned beyond exhaustion and we (four people, myself included) needed to work in our last final project. What we needed to do was a proposal for the remodeling of the campus' library. Everything; facade, interiors, distribution of books, furniture, illumination, everything.

One Thursday night we got together and try to work it out, everyone is just joking around, being lazy, telling funny stories and relaxing, all of it a mixture of tiredness, dulled hormones and Red Bull. Nobody was coming up with any good ideas so I started shooting my own; a whole new design for the facade, incorporating elements of the facade itself inside the library as reading and working furniture; on the spot I designed new working stations and a brand new illumination system; new book shelves, redistributed the stairs, added a service elevator and designed the exterior landscape.

Everyone was saying things like "cool" or "wow, that's weird", but I managed to get everyone working. I tried to get them to put their own touch to my ideas so that everyone contributed in the design, but just one girl did, and it was very minimal, the rest were happy to just do as I told them.

Fast forward Monday, we show the entire thing to our professor. After we are done, he remains very quite and then asks: "who's the one who came up with all of this?"

I said: "we all did", trying to make it look like the whole team worked on the ideas and even out the fallout

But then this dumb girl said "He did"

The professor then stares at me and says: "This is very good work, I really like this project. There are some little details that need to be addressed, but on the whole, you've got yourself a very professional proposal"

I felt like a million dollars for the whole week :D

But my point is when needed, we can take control of the situation and guide it to its success.
Bah. Let no one ride on the coattails of your awesome. You should've claimed the whole project as the birthing process of your prodigal brainchild.
 
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#28
I have been in leadership positions a few times, and generally see myself as being a somewhat inadequate leader in certain circumstances. The main one that comes to mind was my time as the Master (basically, President) of a local Masons lodge. There were things that I was good at, but the things that I lacked are what made for an extremely average year. One of the keys of leadership is the ability to delegate, and it's difficult to delegate when you don't trust that something is going to be done as well as if you did it yourself.
 
Joined
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#29
I avoid leading, and would rather not lead, but I have often found myself leading only because others are too intimidated or lazy to step up to the task. I am not particularly good at leading, but I am fairly good at making things happen, and delegate tasks such as people-management and money-management to those who are better suited.

For example, I started and lead my daughter's girl scout troop, which is now quite large and spans multiple ages. I am good at making sure the girls are engaged in interesting and enriching things, and I'm good at making things happen and keeping momentum in our group. However, I recruited a teacher-type friend to assist with the managing the children, and when it was time run cookie sales, I totally delegated that to an organized extrovert. (I flat out said: if someone better suited does not step up and manage this cookie sale, we will simply not sell cookies. That's fine with me.) I got a volunteer quick, so I suppose I "led" by proxy. :)
 
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#30
I would make a great leader but I would definitely not be able to do it alone, I am much too scatter-brained to be 100% reliable at all times
 

RubberDucky451

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#31
I'm usually the one who provokes the leader. Usually some inexperienced person will step up to leadership and I'll undermine him. The rest of my team i will try to encourage and lead.
 
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#32
I would probably function best as an advisor to the leader, otherwise known as the secret leader.
 
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#33
Leadership is not about managing; it is about communicating a vision.
I have no idea where this quote is from (probably somewhere stupid), but it is always what comes to my mind when I hear people talk about leadership.
While INTPs are certainly poor managers (working with schedules and people), by this definition, the EN mode is actually one of the most important to real leadership. I think a lot of the comments in this thread kind of express this.
 
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#34
Charisma is the #1 attribute I expect in a leader
 

Vecna

INTJ Infiltrator
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#35
As an INTJ I support an INTP boss and I find him to be a great genius. To me I couldn't have a better boss. He allows me to have creative freedom. I enjoy brainstorming, fault/gap analysis, and implementing his ideas so everything works out between us. It's almost like we were made for each other.

There are others on the team though that have issues with his lack of follow through and passive leadership. A lot of my teammates require nurturing and backup and he does not cater to their needs (I find them annoying too, though I understand why they behave the way they do).

I hope to mediate and balance things out. I can relate to some of you and hope that you don't have to deal with too many idiots in your pursuits.
 
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#36
As I read through the posts on leadership, I was fascinated. I am an INTP, and I am a trainer in a leadership development program in a federal govt agency. Leadership is complex and means different things to different people. Reading the posts of so many INTPs certainly leaves me thinking that as a group, we are reluctant leaders. The posts attribute a lot of the reluctance to the introversion preference. But I also find it interesting that INTPs are one of 16 types (6.5% proportionally), but in the United States we are actually under-represented in the general population at about 3% depending on the source. Still 6 U.S. presidents are thought to be INTPs: Lincoln, Ford, Madison, (John Quincy) Adams, Tyler, and Jefferson (Kiersy does a great profile at http://www.keirsey.com/handler.aspx?s=keirsey&f=fourtemps&tab=5&c=jefferson, but some other people have made the case Jefferson is an INTJ).

On leadership, Kiersey says that INTPs and INTJs are much more interested in sharing knowledge than giving direction like ENTJs. This is good food for thought about how personality preference my influence leadership style. I digress.

It is interesting to me that in spite of what has been said in this forum thread, INTPs are over represented in presidential leadership. At 3% of the population, we would only expect about 1 or 2 INTP presidents out of 44, yet there have been 6. And 2 of the four presidents on MT. Rushmore are profiled as INTPs. Just something to consider.

Perhaps one of the problems is that organizations have a certain way of looking at leaders - as direction givers who perpetuate the organizational norms. But is this version of leadership consistent with the INTP profile? (Probably not). In an organization that allows for diverse leadership styles, I would bet that an INTP could thrive in a leadership role, just as a person with any other profile could.
 
Joined
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#37
I think I could be a good leader if I actually found the motivation to remotely CARE about being one. That, and my tendency of always second guessing myself are detrimental for any possible leadership on my part.

I dislike "leaders", each and every single one of them. All the people I admire the most are/were loners who question(ed) figures of authority and so called "leaders". Like Richard Feynman's father told him once; the only difference between the leader and yourself is the hat and uniform.
I have always had a hate/hate relationship with leaders. I hate being micromanaged and absolutely resent most "leaders" since I feel the kind of people that end up in those positions usually do it for the power and not because they have any desire to help the group. Armchair managers and stupid power hungry bastards are to be hated in every form!

That being said I ended up being a supervisor (in a retail job no less) for the last year and it's been an eye opening experience. I actually have a really good team where every member is motivated to do a good job. This has helped a lot. I have NO patience for laziness. I understand being easily distracted or even just ditsy but laziness drives me crazy because I think that if everyone else on the team is working hard then one person being lazy=selfishness. I have a few people I could only describe as utterly aimless and ditsy on my team but I've found that given the right motivation each person can be cajoled into being productive. I try to find out what each member is good at and let them do that. I really like my team and consider them as close to being friends as one can get with co-workers. We all even go out for beers regularly despite the taboo of leaders and underlings meeting up outside of work. And I think my team really likes me at least that's what they've told me. They tell me they love the fact that I don't micromanage them. This is key. Competent employees HATE being micromanaged...or at least this one does :D. Also, as mentioned in previous comments, I've made it known that I don't want to be my teams leader so much as the organizer. I have made it known that I want to give my team the support and whatever else they need in order to do their jobs well. Also, it helps that if we have really bitchy customers on my watch I'll step in and take the blow for them. It's a part of the job description and I hate it when the other supervisors shirk it and let the "underlings" deal with it.

If someone on my team is being crappy then things get sticky. I don't like confrontation and it takes me a while with a lot of analyzing before I approach the person. I usually just explain flat out that I know they can do a good job and if they need more training or information I've got their back. I explain that we've got a good thing going on but if they want to ruin it and make me micromanage them and punish them I will. Finally I tell them it does not have to be that way. It usually works. Often I find out the problem is an interpersonal one and the person just needed a slight adjustment in duties or change in who they were working with.

Last, this job is eating me up slowly. I've managed to make it work this long but eventually the upper management is going to expect even more (they do every day) and I'll finally get fed up with driving my team/friends harder with no real reward. Also, the biggest problem I've had with being a leader is that I'm constantly defending my team to the other leaders. They are quick to J and assume that one person or another is a crappy employee instead of playing to their strengths. Most of the other leaders don't know how to respect their employees and their skills. Instead they follow them around all day giving directions and never helping out or giving them a "good job" at the end of the day. Then I show up for my shift and my team is pissed off and I have to spend an hour ironing out the kinks. GAH! It's maddening.

So, I think I'm a good "leader" but I actually hate the job and hope to escape it some day.
 

Firehazard159

Resident Evil Member
Joined
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Messages
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#38
I would probably function best as an advisor to the leader, otherwise known as the secret leader.
This is exactly how I feel.

I've always mentioned to people that I never want to be in a fullon leadership position. I *can* do it, if it's needed, but really, I function best being 'second in command' so to speak. Advising the leader of possibilities but letting them make the official decisions, myself just sort of hanging in the background.


I think I can be a pretty great leader, I just prefer to avoid obligation and decision making.
 

Reverse Transcriptase

"you're a poet whether you like it or not"
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#40
its okay to be an evil leader if you are intp or intj:elephant:
Well *definitely* for INTJs. I figured we still have to properly motivate our troops/lackeys/team, and have them believe that our cause is good. But we can have sinister things going that are either obvious or covert.

:smiley_emoticons_mr
For some reason I've been drawn to the villain characters in a lot of books and movies.
 

INTPINFP

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#41
me too since the good guys aren't really good, as they kill animals and things they deem "evil". with the bad guys at least they admit they are bad guys lol:smiley_emoticons_mr
 

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"you're a poet whether you like it or not"
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#42
well like... especially with our MBTI point of view, you learn that no one is really stupid, mean, or crazy. They just think different. So one person's Evil is another person's Good.

Being evil to SJs is a heroic cause.
:smiley_emoticons_mr
( i feel that more bats are required for emphasis)
 

Cogwulf

Is actually an INTJ
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#43
I've always thought that the only time I would willingly out myself in a position of leadership is when the thing I'm taking control of is failing terribly and I think no one else is competent enough to do anything.

If I was aboard a sinking ship I would declare a mutiny and convince people to try and plug the leak instead of heading for the lifeboats.


I would plug the hole with bats if I had to :smiley_emoticons_mr
 

INTPINFP

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#44
well like... especially with our MBTI point of view, you learn that no one is really stupid, mean, or crazy. They just think different. So one person's Evil is another person's Good.

Being evil to SJs is a heroic cause.
:smiley_emoticons_mr
( i feel that more bats are required for emphasis)
Yes, but I don't what SJ means though. Sensing/Judging, anyway I hate the mindreaders so yeah:elephant:
 

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#45
INI, elaborate on mindreaders?

SJs are the like... people who care about respect and being orderly and maintaining institutions and following rules. The foundation of society. They're sponges (when they're young, absorbing the culture) that turn into bricks (stubbornly try to maintain what their culture is).

Cogwulf, you might enjoy this song: YouTube - The Lifeboat Mutiny - Cherry Poppin' Daddies
key lyrics:
She's with her friends in the lifeboat
But she is the mutineer
 

INTPINFP

Active Member
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#46
Oh yeah, I can't stand rules. But I just did a quick Wikisearch and found what SJ stands for, sensing/judging. From that limited information I took a wild guess at what it actually meant. But yeah, down with the government, the shadow government, rules religion and everything.
 
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#47
Hello, well this is my first time posting on this forum...ever, well, this is one of the topics im really curious about on this "personality type" subject, mainly because even though the INTP profile description fits too well with me, i love leadership, its kind of arrogant maybe, but i kind of want people around me, (this little circle of close but only friends we have) know im in charge.

example:

im a profesional musician now, i had this band when i was a teen where i would compose everything, the parts from every instrument, writte it down and then give it to the rest of the guys, they would usually like it if not love it, and they would learn their parts, and argue about how much volume should they use and other technical stuff....i would get terriby bored with all this process, i hated going to rehearsals and listening to them "trying" to play it, i would usually tell them to call me when it was ready for us to present, but even at the shows id get mad because it didnt sound like i thought it would, so i finally decided i should record the whole thing myself, instead of being in the band.

ok i think any of us could clearly see a typical INTP, even when i decided to "make the thing happen" (not a strong characteristic from this type) i did it alone (now this sounds more like it), but when i had the band, i liked to know that these guys where "working for me" (and they kind of did, they asked me for aprooval, and would take most of the bands decisions), i mean, most of the time i am just in my world thinking and analyzing whatever i can, but i still like to lead, and ive been said many times im a natural leader. ive checked the functions individualy again, definetively i, n, t, and i wouldnt call myself a j at all...but i still feel this particular part of the description just doesnt fit with me...anyone else DOES like leading, and is good at (for right or wrong hehe) it while still being totaly shure of belonging to the INTP type?
 
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#48
I have struggled with this for years as an entrepreneur. Personally I have had a number of hard won realizations that are allowing me to be much more effective.

Here are a few things I have learned.

As an intuitive perceiver I am able to see many possibilities for the future including some amazing and inspiring possibilities.

Due to being able to see the Ideal outcome I am almost always disappointed in the reality of what gets produced. (perfectionist)

My natural response to this is to say: fuck it, ill do it all myself.

After years of this response I am disappointed in most of the things I do, I generally will create something 80% and drop it when its almost done due to boredom.

As a result I am also very skilled at every part of what I do "programming, design, marketing" ect.

When I started hiring employees I did it to solve the problem of not being able to produce enough and basically to add more production capacity to my self.

I used my employees as tools rather than people, and for all intents and purposes disengaged their brains from every part of their job. Was critical of everything they produced and constantly disappointed in their inability to "get it".

My most profound realizations came when I was a little depressed thinking "I can't work with people" and feeling helplessly stuck in the cycle of doing everything myself and being dissapointed in the results. I looked at other NTP leaders and tried to see how they did it.

Steve Jobs is an NTP and a master at Communicating a vision. I looked at this YouTube- Steve Jobs at Next part 1

He refines the vision with his executives, than communicates it to his staff.

Lincoln - http://www.amazon.com/Lincoln-Leadership-Executive-Strategies-Tough/dp/0446394599

and basically I realized that Persuasion and Communication are much more powerful in the hands of an INTP than Control.

Control for me is a misguided attempt at using people as my tools.

When I started using communication rather than coercion with my employees not only did I get a drastic influx of energy and passion from them... something I had desperately saught out of them. Their productivity and quality of their work dramatically improved.

2 of my employees are ENTJ's and I found out, with a clear, concrete invariant goal, they are able to create, communicate and execute brilliant execution strategies.

My ENTJ's gain massive energy if I can create an (invariant goal) and communicate it in a concrete way. Their brain than engages and they figure out how to solve for that goal.

Now... I know that as an INTP an (invariant, concrete goal) sounds like I am just saying "be a judger" which is basically what 90% of leadership books will say... in a round about way "be an ENTJ or something like that".

But I see creating the invariant and concrete goal as simply a communication tool. The goal is still in flux and open to new information within my brain. But I now take full responsibility for persuading my judgers that its worth the pain to move towards another goal ect. By being forced to persuade rather than control I am finding I gain some of the benefit of their judger personality type. My ideas that really aren't fully developed don't prematurely get converted to actions if I am forced to persuade people to take action on them.

I have taken this approach with all of my employees. 1) Persuade don't Coerce. 2) Understand how all of your employees need to be communicated with. INTP's have the great luxury of deep, holistic understanding and thus need to take responsibility in communication. I have translated my employees and investors / partner's personality traits into business relevant models.

My N/J's need a Concrete and Invariant Goal communicated as a clear, decisive message. I generally do this via a presentation that I prepare... to give the illusion that I have "made up my mind."

My S/J's need a Concrete, invariant and well thought out goal. They also need to be more closely guided in the planning stage. My S J is a juggernaught with a detailed plan. I am unable to plan effectively so I have my more action oriented (N/J's) create plan's based on me communicating my vision.. I have my N/J's work closely with my S/J to make sure he is on course.

I have also learned... its easy for an INTP to stifle innovative thinking from within the group. Because you are constantly refining the actual problem and creating greater clarity from a "what are we actually trying to solve" perspective. Most real world solutions that your Judgers create seem pre-mature and a little bit off. So its easy to quickly dismiss these concrete plans and return to a place of pure abstraction and ideology. It's important to allow people who deal with reality more effectively to innovate within the confines of that reality...

3)... that was a long 2... Allow people to spend most of their working day doing things that bring them energy. N/J's = figuring out how to and tackling a clear, exciting and invariant goal. This keeps them up at night and "turns them on". S/J - tying up the loose ends, making sure plans are bullet proof, finding the land mines in the road and preventing disaster. ENFP - he is my cheerleader / motivator / emotional communicator. He can look at my vision and paint in an emotional / humanistic layer and communicate that with everyone in a way that I simply cannot. INTP's (me) consume information like crazy about related and unrelated fields. Build a powerful vision for the company.


I think its important to gain an edge using your strengths. As an INTP you have the most effective problem solving brain in the world. if you pick the right problems you can solve them better than anyone else in the world. So even though communication does not come easy for you. The shit you have in your head is worth more than the shit in anyone else's head. period. So it is worth it to learn how to communicate . For me I have to learn from a technical, phycological perspective rather than just vibing with people.

When properly communicated, people will absolutely love your ideas...

anyway that was a long ass rant, but this is something I have been deeply engaged in for the last few years and I wanted to share what I had learned along the way :)
 

Starfruit M.E.

Goes by M.E., NOT Star.
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
224
#49
I enjoy leading people younger than myself, because honestly their opinions on my choices matter less to me. (Normally I spend too much time looking for agreement.) In group efforts, I usually try to obtain a leadership position because I know what I am doing, I have high standards, and feel that I can lead the group to this goal. If a stronger personality takes control, however, I end up advisor, and I end up trying to control how they lead the group so that they provide excitement, but I'm really in control. If I do not obtain any kind of control in a group effort, I tend to feel useless and angry.
That said, I have had multiple leadership experiences. Leading people my age usually fails, while leading younger people usually works well if someone else provides the excitement.
 

LAM

Active Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2009
Messages
345
#50
I think I might only be leader in school projects because I think my idea is best. But no-one else ever understand it or bothered to try to. So then I just listen to their ideas and usually change it around a bit for it to be innovative and different from any of the other works other groups are doing. (Isn't trying to do stuff in an innovative way an ENTP characteristic?)
 
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