INTPf Mafia #3: Do you even rift?

[The Gopher]

Well this is where I struggle, because I genuinely usually only need a few sentences to communicate any point I'm trying to make.. I just can't spew out bullshit additional process where there were none.

Yeah, you can make a point in a few sentences, to convince people you need a few paragraphs. Even just psychologically having a huge looking case makes people think there is more than there is. So your weakness is you don't know how to psychologically manipulate influence people.

Focus yourself on one person. You were suspicious of a heap of people. Focus on one person and make them die. Make them more suspicious than you. Even if they are town it's no worse than you dying. I mean by day three you were in a bad spot. You hadn't done what most town consider serious hunting as you were playing survival. Maybe just don't play to survive play to win. If you end up in this spot focus someone and make them worse than you.

Also just noticed my notes link to the scum QT.

 

[Sinny91]

Quoting me:

Admittedly I find it hard to be a team player in the ways required here.. I have my thoughts, which are so messy, I struggle to put them into words.. except for the moments when they are so crystal clear, and then apparently no one believes me because I'm not wordy enough, haha.

At least if this was real life, I would have sussed the killers and saved my own ass. Which is all that's important in my world.

What I mean to say is: I do struggle in the whole 'convincing people' aspect. I offer the reasons I needed to make the read, not necessarily what the other players need to make the read.

But I don't see why others need to complicate things so much, when usually, things are pretty simple.

I'll always dance to my own tune, so if I ever play again.. Just bear it in mind.

Also, I don't accept your advice. My reads were absolutely no more wishy washyv than anyone elses, and when I asked people to back up that assertion they failed.

Like how most of my requests and questions went ignored. I feel like I'm always held to double standards. Commit to a read? Did you not see what I done to Yellow? And then Fukyo?

In one of Fukyo's posts towards the end, I asked her for her top scum reads and instead she FoSed every other player playing. (With absolute none committal reasoning)

I can't work with people who can't recognise the obvious.

It may be my job to convince others of my reads, but it's really hard to do when no one else was anywhere near to having pinned/case the actual mafia team .

As a side note, I like the fact that some of my linguistical habits made there way into the spec thread, yall could do with some colour in your vocabularies.

Helvete, sorry about some of the words I was throwing your way.. even after immediately posting them I was thinking.. "Should I have done that? That's Helvete, I actually like him" .. Lol.

 

[The Gopher]

Yeah everyone plays their own style you just need to find the way to make yours optimal for you. You have to work with the people you have not the people you want. The only effect or improvement you can make is to yourself.

 

[redbaron]

I'm going to make a couple of sticky threads, one for strategy discussion and one with general rules and guidelines for mafia on this forum. I think we can reach a decent balance between the personal quirks of people here and having decent and enjoyable games of mafia.

 

[Sinny91]

Yeah everyone plays their own style you just need to find the way to make yours optimal for you. You have to work with the people you have not the people you want. The only effect or improvement you can make is to yourself.

Bitch, moan, more moaning, I agree.

 

[redbaron]

Also as a note: Sinny the way you played was imo in poor spirit in terms of the game. Especially being Town I was bordering on giving you a warning for playing against your win condition because the level of insult/combativeness makes it almost impossible to have a cohesive town.

 

[Sinny91]

Also as a note: Sinny the way you played was imo in poor spirit in terms of the game. Especially being Town I was bordering on giving you a warning for playing against your win condition because the level of insult/combativeness makes it almost impossible to have a cohesive town.

Less thinking more doing, in future then, right?

 

[redbaron]

Yeah, I didn't want to modkill everyone on my first swing at running a game but once I've made the sticky thread outlining expectations there's going to be a few things that warrant instant replacement or modkill if no replacements are on hand (or found in short notice).

 

[Seteleechete]

Less thinking more doing, in future then, right?

Nah, think as much as you want just explain it to us as if we were 5 years old.

 

[Sinny91]

Yeah, I didn't want to modkill everyone on my first swing at running a game but once I've made the sticky thread outlining expectations there's going to be a few things that warrant instant replacement or modkill if no replacements are on hand (or found in short notice).

On the Spacelog vote.. I'm glad someone could see my perspective.

I think I prefer majority lynch.. It provide's incentive for (somewhat) town consensus.

Sete, I saw little point in you casting your vote at the end. Or little point in Blarraun conceding that I was probably town when he still had 5 or so minutes left on the clock to swing the vote, I think he just wanted the game to be over.

I had mentally given up when absolutely nobody volunteered a case on anyone that wasn't me, towards the end. Like there were two mafia, not just one. Hello!! Okay then, Goodbye!!

 

[Seteleechete]

It had a purpose. By doing so I just about confirmed you were town for example(and by extension PMJ... probably) and I narrowed down the list of mafia significantly(before everyone was a suspect to me, afterwards it would have been Blar, Helvete and Fukyo).

 

[Sinny91]

Also as a note: Sinny the way you played was imo in poor spirit in terms of the game. Especially being Town I was bordering on giving you a warning for playing against your win condition because the level of insult/combativeness makes it almost impossible to have a cohesive town.

By some strange twist of fate, Fukyo and Helvete received the worse of it..

Ha, the spiteful witch thought I was being spiteful

 

[Reluctantly]

Well it's official. INTPs suck at mafia. Unless they are mafia against INTPforum, then they can win without really playing. 3 games, 3 town's eating each other.

Artsu really is a genius.

Artsu
[bimgx=250]http://img08.deviantart.net/7c9f/i/2012/138/f/9/charlie_sheen_poster_by_sabin23-d508qqr.jpg[/bimgx]

 

[Sinny91]

It had a purpose. By doing so I just about confirmed you were town for example(and by extension PMJ... probably) and I narrowed down the list of mafia significantly(before everyone was a suspect to me, afterwards it would have been Blar, Helvete and Fukyo).

How?

 

[Seteleechete]

Since one of them could have gone for PMJ(and lynched him) if you were mafia and PMJ would likely have gone for you if he and you were a team at that point. It's still a gamble granted.

 

[PmjPmj]

I'm going to study strategies now. Perhaps I can at least figure out how to make effective use of my comparatively limited time.

Observations from this game:

Sinny is a loose cannon. People say I'm hard to read, but christ.

Bla was almost too town, but I enjoyed his presence in the game. I liked that he could quickly depart from his detached / logical demeanour and start flinging shit at me. Overall, I think he demonstrates versatility and intellect - a winning combination if he ever pulls mafia.

Hado needs to take a valium or seven.

Yellow brought the noise. I can definitely take a leaf out of her book. This was her first game, right? Christ.

Finally, I like how people find it hard to read me. I think initially, it's due to the fact that I come from a different angle... but let's not beat around the bush - later confusion comes from the fact that I'm just plain shite. I'm working on it.

*opens strategy thread*

Prepare thine teats, novice.

 

[redbaron]

Scumchat: http://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/yVf5y3rmsaJhY

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

Helvete is terrifyingly on top of things in the mafia chat. I'm impressed.

 

[PmjPmj]

I don't know why I was perceived as a threat early on.

I'm flattered, but really?

Hado thought that I was a participant in the game one spec thread, during which I got some accurate reads on the mafia players... but I wasn't there. At all. Ever.

I think people are confusing me with someone else.

 

[The Gopher]

No, if you're around you're fairly perceptive. Also you have a play style that is undeniably town like. I have no idea why people would read you as scum. Thankfully you weren't around and other people don't read you as town with that style so it all worked out. It was more, if we get rid of spacelog, hado and yellow early, you're the one likely to throw a spanner around screaming SCUM TEAM SCUM TEAM!

At least in my perspective.

 

[PmjPmj]

<3

Truth is, my mind is so scattered at the moment (I'm trying to balance multiple things) that it quickly got to the point where I was reading individual posts and taking zero information in. It's like the words were slippery, somehow. An impenetrable fog surrounded the other players.

Next time, I'll be far more on point. I have ideas.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Argh, I'm so angry with myself. I won't post any hindsight comments, it doesn't matter at this point. I suck at this game.

Helvete was imo the best town, he was helpful, Fukyo I was pretty sure was mafia and Sinny just blundered too much to let her live, though at the end I thought she made too many mistakes to be the real deal.

Obviously the best town play will be seen from mafia, also I'm not convinced at all that this game's results aren't anything beyond random. Everyone needs to prove they are town, some will do it better than others but there's no in game mechanic to force scum to slip up if we discount the power roles.

The game is random and I really should expect murphy's law and kill the most helpful town member who was Helvete.

If I hit the coinflip on Sinny/Fukyo then there would be some time to reconsider the options.

Sinny I asked you to go after your suspects instead of defending, but you just kept reverting into the shell when Fukyo prodded you. I was conflicted whether it's a path of least resistance to be the victim, you have no clues or Fukyo was your partner.

Though I'm not blaming you or comparing your play with others. Just trying to understand why you did what you did.

I think I would do best as a solo serial killer or vigilante .

I didn't read any theory and on the last day the mafiascum wiki and forums were down and I couldn't find any helpful reading advice to change the situation, oh well.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Hado, I think the confusing meta isn't very helpful unless everyone is on board with you. You're just wasting energy without giving us any useful information and you look pretty scummy in the process.

I didn't read the previous 2 games because I'm not that interested, but given what you did I think you should consider what others can understand and what others need information wise as you try to be the leader. Your Sinny-town and Fukyo-scum were quite on point, also Yellow-town was a good read but you didn't have the patience or certainty to convince others.

Overall I think you didn't play badly.

Sete and PMJ, I enjoyed your input when you were active but I'd suggest you consider your time situation before signing up for a game and then be mostly inactive or detached for a major part of it.

Yellow, you did what you could. I'm not sure how but the day 1 lynch became the most serious lynch day of them all and it really shouldn't be that indicative of anything since it's a random pick and generally a townie will die in it.

Helvete, well played, I think there were a few signs that I ignored that should have alerted me, like your discounting of Hado's good reads and your putting me on a leash.

Shapelog, I think you played well considering the role you were in, maybe a bit more activity would've saved you but it couldn't be helped in the end.

QT and Goph, can't say much, replacing out did confuse the remaining players and I think it was a big factor in scum having an easier time alleviating suspicion.

Fukyo, you adjusted well enough and you helped Sinny kill herself for the win, it was a good tactic to choose.

 

[PmjPmj]

Bla just reminded me - well done Spaceblog. The way you came out swinging did, to me, get the game rolling. I think your tactic was excellent considering your role, and I really enjoyed your contributions.

Shame your shitty internet connection got you lynched.

 

[Sinny91]

Sinny I asked you to go after your suspects instead of defending, but you just kept reverting into the shell when Fukyo prodded you. I was conflicted whether it's a path of least resistance to be the victim, you have no clues or Fukyo was your partner.

.

Even now its like banging my head up a brick wall.

My named my cases, and they went ignored.

I dont know why everyone insists on making me repeat myself.

I found you, Blar, to be a really strong player 85% of the game.. But you were absolutely impotent towards the ends, and of no use to me.

 

[PmjPmj]

When Sinny realises she's an INTJ, everything will be cool

 

[Hadoblado]

Yeah I'm selfish. Instead of thinking "how do I get town to lynch mafia?", I think "how best can I figure out who's mafia?", then leave the actual convincing to some unfortunate future installment of hado.

For the record, all my reads were real I think. I worry people think I was entirely fabricating cases. I wasn't, I just either changed my mind, or tested things in such a way that my mind was changed (I really didn't wanna back off on Blar).

Part of what I was playing with was not tunneling (my script that is). Game one I tunneled a town ESC and got lynched because of it. Game two I tunneled a town Gopher and got lynched because of it. This game I didn't want to tunnel, so I didn't. Given very specific outcomes I would have tunneled (if Blar had have claimed blue, if fukyo had have claimed blue, if Fukyo had not replied with enough frustration etc.), but I did not want it as my default.

By the end I didn't think Sinny town, and I never had real conviction in the read. I just thought that if she survived until late-game she'd be evaluated on her own merit, and by me vouching for her early when there was nothing to really push her on, I would save town time. Narrow the focus a little. Don't get me wrong, she was slight green, it wasn't completely out of nothing, but it wasn't something I'd take credit for given how convinced I was by the end that she was red.

I didn't have the certainty on Yellow to convince because I wasn't 100% convinced, and I didn't have the time. She did seem like the kind of lynch to give a lot of info, and I didn't have any strong red reads that I'd prefer. Yellow seemed more green (chromatic-confusion+1) than others, but it was a day one read. I couldn't be that confident.

I think you're approaching this game with a kind of helpless mindset? Random? Yeah there's chance... but it's not true chance. Just unknowns. And you can make more of those unknowns known until it feels less like chance and more like skill. Similar to poker. You're going to have bad beats, but there's a reason that some win while others lose. Even if you lynch a town day one, the point is to frame day one in such a way that mafia are forced to act in order to make that town go down. That means making sure everyone is pressured at some point. Our day one was actually quite good despite me having to claim blue. It's only after that that everything went to shit :/

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

I found you, Blar, to be a really strong player 85% of the game.. But you were absolutely impotent towards the ends, and of no use to me.

You mean I came too fast? My bad, I'll take viagra next time.

Spoiler

Sorry if the joke is in bad taste.

Even now its like banging my head up a brick wall.

My named my cases, and they went ignored.

I dont know why everyone insists on making me repeat myself.

Noo, I don't think you need to repeat, I'll be honest, don't defend, take the criticism as it goes and make note of that. By defending and explaining yourself now, you're doing the same thing you're doing with your conspiracy theories, confirming the bias of your own perspective.

Don't be afraid, take the critique, accept your faults and see if you can improve based on what people tell you, experiment with your own opinion on yourself.

 

[PmjPmj]

Bla - your Ti is as large as the moon.

<expects a response akin to "I'm an ENTJ, you thick twat">

 

[Sinny91]

No, I was right, you were wrong.

I don't see how you are processing this any other way.

Once again I take offense to talking about my conspiracy theories being confirmation bias, whilst you refrain from joining me in my threads to demonstrate such.

Cowardly thief in the night, is what you are.

What I learned from this is that you guys clearly don't know how to read me, whilst I clearly know how to read yous. (better)

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Just unknowns. And you can make more of those unknowns known until it feels less like chance and more like skill. Similar to poker. You're going to have bad beats, but there's a reason that some win while others lose.

I'm bored with poker, there's nothing keeping me invested when playing it, it seems so arbitrary and random. I know there's a lot of subtlety and reading involved, but I never had the inclination to delve into that topic. I prefer complete information games like Go or Chess, or something with a consistent information buildup.

Even if you lynch a town day one, the point is to frame day one in such a way that mafia are forced to act in order to make that town go down. That means making sure everyone is pressured at some point. Our day one was actually quite good despite me having to claim blue. It's only after that that everything went to shit :/

I agree, forcing scum to act in order to survive makes this game skill based. To do this though a lot of skill is needed and assuming skill is evenly spread I don't see how mafia can't stay clear.

Based on this however, I think it's incorrect to hold poor town play as any scum indication. Mistakes are different from intentional damage and it can be distinguished with experience.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

No, I was right, you were wrong.

I was afraid you might react like this. I can't get through to you once you say things like that. Your brain just ignores any potentially helpful advice I might be giving to you.

We were both wrong, it doesn't matter who was in the right, let's say you were, eh that's not the point.

<expects a response akin to "I'm an ENTJ, you thick twat">

Admit, you cannot handle my J-ness. I mean, it's fun chatting away with you.

 

[Hadoblado]

Blar you just rolled a '1' on diplomacy. She was already finding it difficult to accept what you were saying, how does adding "btw you're wrong about conspiracies too" make her more likely to believe you?

I think this conversation doesn't serve anyone's interest. The only way it's productive is if someone actually dredges up Sinny's filter and points out why it is or isn't full of cases that were wrongfully ignored. I don't see anybody caring enough, so all this continued back-and-forth serves no purpose but to cause upset.

 

[Sinny91]

How's it going to cause 'upset'? I have to listen to all your bullshit, but mine has to be closed down? For the record, I am semi trolling, but I am also right. I'll cut out the swearing in future games.. But i'll maintain my scum hunting methods, as apparently I garner results.

I was just reading some 8 stuff and this is pretty apt:

Quoting Entropic

Some things just are, I can see the objective truth to it, so I don't understand why others cannot. Why should I have to explain the obvious? It can make me very impatient explaining things sometimes, just wanting people to simply get it right away without having to say say anything.

http://personalitycafe.com/type-8-forum-challenger/852090-what-do-you-think-5s-2.html






 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Blar you just rolled a '1' on diplomacy.

I know. I'm leaving the topic. That doesn't mean it wasn't worth a try at the very least.

 

[redbaron]

The game's not about who's right, it's about who can direct the lynch to the right people. There's nothing to brag about for picking the scum-team if you're completely unable to convey your points.

On that note:

But i'll maintain my scum hunting methods, as apparently I garner results.

I'm calling straight-up bullshit on this because you ended up voting PMJ and your final analysis where your scumreads as of this post were PMJ/Blar+Fukyo.

You've got 2Town/1Scum in that read. That's no better than Blarraun who saw a Sinny/Fukyo team. Pmj got Fukyo. Sete got Fukyo as well. Literally everyone who was Town predicted AT LEAST 1 scum by the end of Day 3. Pmj and Sete even got their votes on Fukyo (scum) at end of day 3, whereas your own vote ended on Pmj (Town).

You can't honestly sit here and play the, "I get results!" card when you got 1/3 scumreads correct and your final vote was on Town. That's as far from, "results" as you can possibly get.

Also Fukyo + Helvete weren't targeting you because you were scary, they just pushed the easiest lynch. That's nothing to brag about: they targeted what they saw as the weakest town player. Helvete even mentioned in post #66 of the mafia chat: "I wouldn't even worry about her too much, she'll have some vague accusation then abandon it as soon as someone has a different opinion"

Yeah you can sit there and act like your scumhunting was good, that you played a good town game and that other people were wrong. At the end of the day though:

- your scumreads were no more correct than anyone else
- you got lynched day 3
- you antagonized multiple members of the town
- the mafia weren't worried by your presence
- you didn't manage to put forward a case that convinced anybody your reads were good

So I don't know what you think it is about your play that, "gets results" but it's certainly not results that are conducive to a Town win.

 

[Jennywocky]

heh... Entropic has been in his share of scrapes too.

He does say that; but if you examine his post history over there, he's known for making very long cases and has no qualms about trying to explain himself anyway. He's probably one of the most prolific posters in the personality type sections. He invests long explanations (sometimes too long, from a reader perspective -- it can be overwhelming) in his arguments.

 

[Sinny91]

I've only read your first two sentences, but I call bullshit on your bullshit.

I cast my vote on PMJ, because there was already a vote on him, and it had looked like Fukyo was being let off the hook. The PMJ wagon was my last ditch effort not die next.

And Yes, Helvete's effort moved suspicion off him towards the end. (great performance on his part after I came in and named him and fukyo as the scum)

I was gunning for Fukyo.

My main gripe with town at the EotD was the simple fact that nobody made any efforts to hunt anyone except for me. (making their cases on me, that is)

I find that just as fucking lazy and useless as I stand accused of being, am I'm just making sure you all fucking know it.

And my final point being, I was nearer to pinning them then anyone else.

 

[redbaron]

All that said, I'm not trying to cut you down as an individual. I think you played pretty strong at points throughout the game, and did a whole lot of other things that detracted from the strong points.

Hadoblado does the same thing every game he plays apparently. Pmj was giving me fits of exasperated sighs and some other town were talking in so many circles that I could barely follow their motivations even though I already knew everyone's role.

So whatever, no one's trying to tell you that you're a god-awful player or anything, just that like anyone else on their 3rd game you've got a lot of rough edges. Same with everyone else, me included.

I think people are trying to foster a spirit where we can smooth out rough edges as a team, not too dissimilar to how a functional Town might look in a game of mafia...

 

[redbaron]

I've only read your first two sentences, but I call bullshit on your bullshit.

I cast my vote on PMJ, because there was already a vote on him, and it had looked like Fukyo was being let off the hook. The PMJ wagon was my last ditch effort not to die.

And Yes, Helvete's effort moved suspicion off him towards the end.

But I was gunning for Fukyo.

My main gripe with town at the EotD was the simple fact that nobody made any efforts to hunt anyone except for me. (making their cases on me, that is)

And my final point being, I was nearer to pinning them then anyone else.

The day ended with 3 votes on you and 2 votes on Fukyo. If you were gunning for Fukyo, you could have tied the game at a No-Lynch (or forced Blarraun to a decision) instead of you getting lynched if you voted her.

Also, this plays straight into the point I made earlier. If you're Town, it's your job to be consistent and explain your reasoning.

If you're gunning that hard for Fukyo, then vote for Pmj without explaining? Your fault. The entire basis of the game is that there's a group of people misleading and lying to you in order to manipulate your choices. So don't complain if you're going to play inconsistently and act like everyone else is dumb for thinking you're scummy.

Also, do tell me how you were any closer to nailing Fukyo than say, Pmj and Sete who actually voted her?

 

[Sinny91]

At the end (last 5 or ten minutes was that?) yes, I'd lost all hope of consensus... Wasn't expecting Sete to crawl out from the woodwork, that's something I can't defend.

Blarraun pissed me off with his constant votes switches at the end, which were completely flippant.

The main two cases raised against me (which were by scum Fukyo, btw) were the Spacelog vote (and even you agreed with my reasoning on that one), and the claim I put in a paragraph in an edit, I'm glad Cheesepuffs at least witnessed said paragraph before said edit ever took place.

The cases raised against me were scummy/false/pedantic and Town offered no aid or objectivity at all, which could have been achieved by exploring alternative scum cases and pushing them, which town collectively failed to do...

I'm finished now.
Sorry for being my usual aggravated self.. Thank you for hosting.

 

[redbaron]

That was like 5 hours before lynch. Anyway my point isn't to cut you down like I said, I'm just saying that everyone here is rough around the edges and no one can really claim to be that crash hot as Town because...well Town hasn't even got close to winning a game yet.

 

[Sinny91]

That was like 5 hours before lynch. Anyway my point isn't to cut you down like I said, I'm just saying that everyone here is rough around the edges and no one can really claim to be that crash hot as Town because...well Town hasn't even got close to winning a game yet.

Not intending to paint myself as crash hot - but I'm not accepting the level of perceived blame I've read into... (rightly or wrongly so)

In other news, love the new mafia forum make over.. you've done a decent job.

Won't be long before a whole new mafia subculture has been born over here.

 

[Seteleechete]

Errm RB, you do realize I voted fukyo in the last few minutes and had to outside view an afk vote on PMJ. It wasn't the worst decision to keep a vote on PMJ(admittedly I was counting on her constantly refreshing near end of day and switch to Fukyo).

 

[Sinny91]

Errm RB you do realize I voted fukyo in the last few minutes and had to outside view an afk vote on PMJ. It wasn't the worst decision to keep a vote on PMJ(admittedly I was counting on her constantly refreshing near end of day and switch to Fukyo).

It's called communication Sete (hark!) you should have just told me to, like I tell yous to do! lol (We clearly operate differently) .. I literally tuned back in with 5 minutes to go, as I'd started doing house work sometime prior and got lost in thought.

Saw B's post stating RB had probably given the game away, but he didn't switch his vote accordingly, I knew it was game over.

One of the biggests issues I face in this game is that of being dismissal, and quitting too easily...

It's all I do in real life, close down and dismiss. Maybe this game will teach me a few things yet.

 

[Seteleechete]

Communication would have ruined the bait(you/pjm). In hindsight I am doubtful I needed to wait so long but that's 20-20.

 

[Seteleechete]

One of the biggests issues I face is this game is of being dismissal, and quitting too easily...

It's all I do in real life, close down and dismiss. Maybe this game will teach me a few things yet.

Yeah I kinda have a similar problem, after day 1 I just went with my standard response when things felt tough - I stopped caring and went into apathy mode. And I am not much on being enthusiastic about something I don't care about.

 

[Sinny91]

Yeah I kinda have a similar problem, after day 1 I just went with my standard response when things felt tough - I stopped caring and went into apathy mode. And I am not much on being enthusiastic about something I don't care about.

Yea, but we were up against seconds, not a lifetime Sete..

But yea, that's a major stumbling block for me too, well into it the one day, well inconvenienced by it the other.

I still have a lot of homework to do, and I'm hoping play will come more naturally to me future.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Saw B's post stating RB had probably given the game away, but he didn't switch his vote accordingly, I knew it was game over.

I kind of gave up at that point and I didn't want to take advantage of RB's post. I need to work on the regularity of the models I make.

 

[PmjPmj]

Pmj was giving me fits of exasperated sighs

Result.