Anyways, While I am finishing this up (it is going to be awhile btw, since I now can actually quote the posts I wanted to a few days ago) I am going to ask you a question,
Nope. Nice try though. (I know there's no roleblocker if I'm tracker, so this shouldn't give you a useful read though I appreciate the intention). I received a result, but I'm sitting on it for now.
I'm happy to see you because I've had the feeling that town has been brawling each other while mafia lurk. With Gopher being replaced, it's nice to see someone that I can hold to a standard of experience. It's sort of frustrating having to constantly reiterate what an experienced player takes for granted. It's made me feel kinda disengaged.
I think one of you three (gopher/fukyo, Spacedog, QT), are mafia. At least one. What are your thoughts on the other two?
Because ATM I'm not picking up any red off the actives. Not enough anyway. And that makes me think scum has been absent.
Shapelog's Post of Explanations, Answering, And Above all, Reads!
30%
That was the chance of fucking rain today(I am writing this after EOD) and the 30% flickered on and off. My internet, exceed, doesn't really like the rain, and i basically had no internet/or was near a lighting storm. By the time it passed, I saw the STFU post from host.
Anyways, Moving onto a post. I am doing it by sections (to make it easier on me, as I am quite tired, and the readers) about the game right now In my opinion.
I think that was actually my most level-headed explanation ever.
---------------------------------------------------------------- Answers
@Everyone complaining about me not voting or QT and not voting Habo etc.
There are multiple reasons I either didn't vote people at the time, or vote Hablo(QT).
Generally, and this is personal preference, I rarely vote before the last few hours of D1. This is because of:
A) I typically do not have a strong bias of scumminess towards someone, till later in the day (for day 1). Hence, why I play a question game mostly, as I try to get info out of people I find scum, then move forward with it. Which takes time most of the time. (I also do it for the late game, assuming I survive till then, for that extra bit of info.) Later,I usually am more quick to vote, since I have more to work off of.
B) Wagons are easier to read later in the day. This is with any day tbh, but, seeing how a wagon takes form helps me (somewhat) guess if the person getting lynched or not will be town due to voting trends. I find it helpful to wait awhile to vote, to make out what the first wagon (which usually will be town due to %) is going to flip. Obv, if someone I find scummy gets dog piled quickly, that sends red flags off to me. A course, you always have the first sus. people of the game (which is why I question people, instead of pressure voting. Tho, I do not find the other scummy or anything.) which people are going to jump on (aka Hablo), but later, it is more damming if it happens.
C)I like to interact with everyone, or at least the person I want to vote, before I vote them. In General, I always have found it good practice to have a person be able to at least defend themselves from my points, before I post them. This not only gives me more to work on, but also can clear up things that I either overthought, or misunderstood.
Now onto QT post about me not voting Hablo, while making "Good points"
The reason I didn't vote Hablo (along with the above) is very simple, He plays (by his own word, and the word of others, and What I saw from him in the last game) a lynch bait style as town (and I assume as scum as well). This would make him a target for anyone, be it town or scum, to jump on. As scum, he is a easy push target, as town, he genuinely does stuff to be consider scum. So I decided to take a cautions approach (more so then before) with him.
Also, Just worth noting, I am not typically this aggressive, and this is perhaps, my most aggressive game to date. Most games, especially town games, I get lynched because I blend in too much, and just overall too passive. Which, along other things, is something I am trying to improve. I also typically not on point as I am here funny enough.
Make what you want out of this, idc. Any person with enough drive and IQ could google TL, and find my games there.
I kinda thought it was (since who claims active buddying in thread) , but wanted to make sure. Tbh, looking back, that was a useless question to ask, since either alignment would just said the same thing.
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PMJ Reasoning, and Answer for the question, what is wrong.
Reasoning
I’m going to struggle here, because I am largely going off my gut. Tell me if I have this all wrong:
Whilst it isn’t unfeasible to suggest that an experienced player could pull off playing aggressive Mafia, I do think it’s a very risky tactic. You’re putting yourself squarely in the limelight (negatively; lots of attention) which, in my limited experience, is a position most Mafia want to avoid. I have previously noted that Mafia players tend towards being lurkers, or loud but overtly pro-town (to a degree which makes you roll your eyes and think “Really? Fucking really?” This certainly applies to players of lesser experience, and is why I assumed Hado was Mafia during the last game. Such a stunningly overbearing love of the town (falling over himself to post statistics and timers, etc. - strangely absent here, no?) has previously been a tell - and I’ve caught people out on that basis alone.
Admittedly, it isn’t always a strong tell tell, of course - especially in settings like this with a higher average IQ and more experienced participants. To that end, you may just be a really good Mafia. I have no way of knowing, but my gut says you’re green.
Problems with Reasoning
It’s all hot air, essentially. Firstly, it’s based on past experience and my own experience / gut… and I’ll be the first to admit that past precedent isn’t always a reliable predictor of future outcomes - and my gut completely fucked up during the first few days of the previous game.
Secondly, and this is way out there, you could be mirroring me to gain favour - but this is highly unlikely; I’m inexperienced and (as you can tell) a bit ham-fisted in my efforts. This angle is only worth considering if for some bizarre reason, you wanted to befriend a dumb mouthpiece. In which case ‘fair play’
I don’t know, Spacetwig. You tell me why my reasoning is shit. I’m all eyes.
First things first. What did I do last game, that me and you played in? I scumread you based off (among other things) of aggressiveness you showed during the fight from Hablo/Gopher. Sure, that was more behind that, but if I am playing like you, who I scumread, well, see the disconnect?
A course, there are answers, such as the one underneath the not voting reasoning section, that answers that.
Second off, and you said it yourself, I am experienced. Now, I do not think Experience = good, nor will I. But, I do know a thing or two about playing mafia. You have no clue, what so ever, how I act, how I think, or how I play as scum. Not that I expect you too, but what I do, is the fact that I played a game with you, where you know i was town. Sure, meta off of 1 game is a sin as Onegu would say, but it is still something. And the fact of the matter is, my tone is completely different here (IMO). Back there, I was nice Shapelog, with "hey chumps!" and British swag (despite being both french and native american). Here, which is why you townread me (or TR), I am different.
So the fact that that doesn't ring off red bells kinda surprises me tbh. I would, in shoes, be more questioning on why this is.
Anyways, you are right (mostly) of what inexperience mafia players do. However, I never had a problem ever not posting (biggest ratio of my posts to thread was from mafia like I said b/4) as scum, and some other people don't as well. I have no problem tearing your arse off, and often do it against my own team mates if I roll scum.
Again, you shouldn't (unless you looked it up) know that anyways at the time of that post so blah, I am ranting.
Also, Arrogance is a duel edge sword my friend. Your IQ could be 200, and you still will get screwed by mafia.
I'll stop this rant, as it is actually very counterproductive (arguing that you are not town, when you are), but, Some of your points aren't good IMO.
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Sinny, Space dog, QT and PMJ what are your opinions on Blararan?
There is a post from him that I really do not like, as it contradicts with his thought process and his outcome (at least how I read it), But I will go more on detail with it later on.
also will read more posts from him, once I get past the questions.
That seems to be all the questions for D1. Moving on.
------------------------------------------------------------- Thoughts/Posts that I hate so far .
I am starting with this one, Since I already have reference to it I think 2 times now, and am dieing to point it out, since I do not think anyone else saw it.
Your gut feels totally throw me off. I don't agree with you here. Shapelog is very guarded so far and he seems like an ideal candidate for mafia. The fact that he made a few pokes and asked a few questions around doesn't put him in the crossfire at all. He hasn't gone to harass any player yet and it's as if he's feeling satisfied and waiting for the later stage of the game, or he's purposefully contributing just so he isn't accused and what better way to do it than asking and directing attention.
...
Slight town reads:
Gopher, too all-inish to my taste. If I'm going to turn against Gopher it's going to be later once I decipher his demagoguery as damaging for the town. His criticism of my play I take as a slight town read, since he's very open about what his issues are.
QT and Shapelog, concise and on point. Maybe that's the way this game should be played.
Sete, explained himself and does seem to be constructively helpful.
Sinny, I don't see a consistent agenda behind her. She's acting in a way I'd expect her to, but my expectations will change later, so far so good.
Suspects:
Speaking of Hado, he hasn't yet replied to my questions here and he continually raised my suspicion. He had enough time to do so but he chose to ignore them. All he did was make a generic commentary on me without addressing me personally, that's scummy in my eyes.
Vote Hado
Besides him Yellow appears deceitful so far, however I am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt that she's busy right now. I don't think she would play for an incredibly easy win as mafia by pretending to be disoriented and short on time. I actually think she'd be giving her best unless she couldn't physically do it.
Null reads: PMJ, that man is shady as pitch, when I read his explanations they make little sense to me, he seems to rely on his crazy intuition and makes random moves.
This is the one post that I hate from Blar, because he states that I am a ideal mafia candidate, and has all these reasons on why I am scum, yet, ends up town reading me for being concise. Like, he has a whole paragraph, on why I am scum, or scummy things about me, but ends up town reading me for being on point? It doesn't make sense to me at all. It is so disconnected, that it doesn't make sense with any mindset.
And I understand him let say, proving or saying to PMJ (like I did) that his read is off due to X. But he calls me "ideal candidate for mafia" as if he thinks I am scum, yet town reads me, and had been townreading me. So it wasn't even like he was in the mindset (unless off screen) of "Shape is scummy to me, Need to investigate, oh but this post I like. I move him."
I just cannot wrap my head around it. His read says one thing, yet his mindset says another. I cannot even really think of a scum reason to do it, other then maybe make reads on me weaker (but, I was afk so idk) or to make pmj look worse.
I kinda want to bonk him on the head for the reply on yellow (#121), just due to his tone tbh. And painting EVERYTHING almost, about what X did, as fake. Even the BS about yellow RL excuse makes no sense to me, but, Idk what he is referring to (Since it is outside game info from their relationship) so i am ignoring that.
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Gopher's first post,
Okay, basically my timezone ended with my last post. Technically ended before that but I couldn’t sleep. I’ve woken up now. I’ve sort of skimmed the thread since then so everything I’m posting was either in my notes before or a bit after midnight to four.
First up the major reason I posted even less than I intended was.... I think Hado is scum. At least at the time there is one thing I’m scratching my head at. Anyway, it should be obvious why I would keep quiet under those circumstances. One of the reasons I thought Hado was scum was intuition. Generally last game when I was interacting with Hado I thought he was scum and when I wasn’t I thought he was town. Which is why when we made our truce/night happened I made the “I think he’s town” post and then why later it deteriorated. However without interacting with him at all... I STILL though he was scum. However instead of jumping on it I decided to wait because interacting with him (even giving him posts to talk to me at) would have cemented that read and we would have the flame war of last game.
Okay first post out the gate, talks about the super active townies Sinny, QT, and Yellow. I hate this type of statement. Anyway on to the larger problems. Hado and I both discussed lurking before the game. He even said he is scripting (aka has a set strategy, although now I think about it he did talk about rolling dice) and I really assumed he would post less. You know honestly it might be easier to just post my raw note for this section.
Man hado why so scummy. Every single game. First you say you aren't going to post much in the pre-game then you do post a lot. Most of it fluff, questions or role theory. Now sure he did this last game however last game he didn't say he would hold back and he came out swinging at me. Then when I push him on it he flips and says well sure I'll hold back more... then doesn't. Also specifically saying he won't vote the new people was sus. Maybe allied with one?
Also another problem I have is... Hado is really easy to lynch when he’s town. However not THIS easy, according to my notes nearly everyone hates him. Although I’m more split on what this means. I’m not lost on the irony of him being lynched third day of game one, second day of game two and potentially first day of game three.
Anyway I’m losing my train of thought. So I’ll post what I wrote up last night when you asked me about Yellow and QT.
Okay to Sinny about Yellow and QT. Well I disliked QT for making me like him. In other words maybe his compliment was an attempt at buddying? I mean it's true of course I'm a genius (:P) but I'm also very good at getting people lynched and that’s something mafia abused last game. As far as actually reading him I have zero confidence and that terrifies me. He seems to play more the RB, or in this game Yellow/Blar style of posting which I am notoriously bad at reading. (to many paragraphs not enough emotion) My scary list has changed dramatically with all the heavyweights coming in. (QT, Spacelog, still a bit on hado but that's simply because I would never hear the end of losing to him) I'm also worried about Yellow simply because psychologist. However as far as reads go I didn't like how Yellow went after you. Now the action itself was fine just... You seem back to your normal self and while you did get a heap of tips on how to play scum my intuition is back to not being worried about you (much like spectating your first game). Yellow from memory only really has reads on you and Hado and that seems awfully calm yet still jumpy? A mix of reactions that just doesn't sit right yet. It's very nebulous though at least those are my thoughts at the point of writing this which is 4 am my time.
I’m starting to run short on time since this first day/night period I actually have stuff to do for a change. (Doesn’t mean I’m town just explains why I won’t be here, also I’ll try to avoid it but I may end up at the doctors when the lynch goes down) Don’t worry I can be here all night though. Because of that I’ll just post my raw notes in a spoiler if anyone wants to read them.
However first questions.
Hado can you explain your actions regarding the lurking not lurking but fluffing style of play. (talking of god?) Other people already asked you about the town calling so I’ll go re-read it when I get back.
Qt what’s your current opinion of Sinny. In my notes you seemed to flip flop on her a little? Something about not thinking she was faking it yet still thinking she was scum.
Yellow, well unfortunately I don’t really have questions for you since it’s mainly intuition based on my Sinny read. However it’s the type of intuition that picked up Sinny day one last game yet I couldn’t act on it. Hmm maybe if you could just... keep posting?
However did Sinny really accidentally scum claim in her first post? Seems unlikely although she knows she needs to act massively differently from last time if she is scum. Hado comes out with yay active townies when Sinner, Qtpie and Yhello have posted. He did the same thing last game with Ika iirc though. However maybe it's lack of suspicion? He's also incorrect on the roleblocker thing well they would know two possible setups anyway. If he does flip scum unlikely to have a rb? If so then we have a tracker and mafia has a goon. Could be wifom though.
Also what on earth was hado posting about God. Strange post very fluff after him saying pre-game he wasn't going to do that.
Yellow says best chance of winning is mafia lynch day one. Well she may not know that's technically inaccurate but it is a small game so maybe.
Man hado why so scummy. Every single game. First you say you aren't going to post much in the pre-game then you do post a lot. Most of it fluff, questions or role theory. Now sure he did this last game however last game he didn't say he would hold back and he came out swinging at me. Then when I push him on it he flips and says well sure I'll hold back more... then doesn't. Also specifically saying he won't vote the new people was sus. Maybe allied with one?
Blar mentioned having nothing to talk about if not for Hado's posts. Scum sign?
Huh Qt did something strange. Sinny was -2 on my spreadsheet of his opinion but then said he didn't think she was faking it. He also could be trying to buddy with me?
(Edit: Just so you know I completely changed my mind on this part however I will keep the spreadsheet close to my chest for the most part since it's something mafia probably would want.)
Hado just so you know I saw your post around midnight but decided to keep lurking. Do with that what you will. Feel free to correct me. However I think giving reads as a lurker style town gives quite a large benefit to the scum team compared to overly vocal people at least for the first day (real time) when they're trying to work out who they can get a lynch on. Particularly considering who I'm eyeing up... Keeps then wondering if they're going to get stabbed by a surprise case/won't know where the support is coming from. That said while I will start posting more actual posts when I get back from physio the one strat which will make perfect sense I'll probably post it tonight before bed and let people do with it what they will.
This next one was posted slightly later.
Also, you are my biggest suspicion right now. Now I know har har lets not repeat last game but last game I was suspicious of you at every interaction we had and not suspicious of you every time we didn't interact. That's why over the period we weren't interacting and night 1 I thought you were town but flipped when I was interacting with you. Long story short I haven't been interacting with you at all and you still seem suspicious. So I waited. I didn't want to make another post that night in case confirmation bias kicked in and felt it best.
Also on top of that on my spreadsheet (which is my alternative to jaw clenching) also that's another thing I changed from last game. When you mentioned later that your spreadsheet would have made the right associations once I flipped I figured maybe I could use one. Anyway, you are the top suspect from the majority of people. You do however have a few neutral people and one or two very mild people on you which could be a soft bus or just nothing at all. Also fun facts from the spreadsheet machine Sinny is the most controversial. I'm would almost be tempted to lynch her for information since it's pretty much split to the point where it comes out to 0 overall. Would that is... if I wasn't on the other side of that equation. The only people who haven't given their opinions on Sinny is Blar and Spacelog. (written at 1:30am)
Blar and Quick twist seem to be the only people who think hado is town. Given how easy he is to lynch when he isn't mafia and comparing it to now where he seems super easy to lynch.... it doesn't feel right.
Okay to Sinny about Yellow and QT. Well I disliked QT for making me like him. In other words maybe his compliment was an attempt at buddying? I mean it's true of course I'm a genius (:P) but I'm also very good at getting people lynched. <_< As far as actually reading him I have zero confidence and that terrifies me. He seems to play more the RB, or in this game Yellow/Blar style of posting which I am notoriously bad at reading. (too many paragraphs not enough emotion) My scary list has changed dramatically with all the heavyweights coming in. (QT, Spacelog, still a bit on hado but that's simply because I would never hear the end of losing to him) I'm also worried about Yellow simply because psychologist. However as far as reads go I didn't like how Yellow went after you. Now the action itself was fine just... You seem back to your normal self and while you did get a heap of tips on how to play scum my intuition is back to not being worried about you (much like spectating your first game). Yellow from memory only really has reads on you and Hado and that seems awfully calm yet still jumpy? A mix of reactions that just doesn't sit right yet. It's very nebulous though at least those are my thoughts at the point of writing this which is 4 am my time.
I really like this post from Gopher for a few reasons. One, is the way he is displaying his thought process. It shows that he is A) trying to solve the game, and are thinking of things pass what a normal scum would, and B) shows he seems to be clueless. Both make me think he is town.
And if he was scum, and I might be WIFOMing myself but w/e, I would suspect he would fight Hablo, and not held back. He has some disguise to do so, after last game, and I doubt some would see more into it. Plus, it would just blend into the thread's ideological at the time.
OK, so I was going to respond with quotes, but frankly you guys make such long posts it would take forever to reply to everything I want to, so I'll just make a few comments that more fits my style of play if that's alright.
Pmj is a Null read at this point. He's really standoffish and I don't know what to make of him being non-committal on Sinny and then immediately saying "I'll put my balls on the line and say she is Tow" Kinda irked me more so than anything.
I haven't been overly impressed with Gopher, but I'm inclined to agree that at this point I am liking a Hado lynch. He seems calm and collected as always, but I don't know that I can trust him just yet. I did kinda get the feeling like he was trying to look like he was doing more than he really was, but I'll have to watch and see what he does from here on out.
I am iffy on Yellows unvote of Sinny. It seems like I can't tell if Yellow is actually reevaluating the read on Sinny or just unvoting them because it was planned or some shit. That said, I think I like Yellow for town about now and there are really only like one or two things than bugged me from her posts.
Hado just had a bad reaction to pressure. I didn't see him really even acknowledge anything people thought he was Suspicious for except to say "I am just playing a scripted game this time" which, honestly I don't think I like. Its fine if you want to change things up a bit, but when people are saying you are Sus, you really need to address those concerns.
Sete is kinda doing the same kind of argument as Hado saying they are playing the way the would regardless of alignment, but the difference is that Sete hasn't really fallen under suspicion while saying this and I have to say that is a more Townie thing to do considering context. I also like the way they are addressing things head on and not really pussyfooting around so much.
Sinny remains to be the Bull in the china hut, and I like that in her because I'm inclined to think she is Town for it. Its such a stark contrast to last game I don't think I can justify any sort of Scum read on her at this time. Her contribution has been a bit lacking but for now its enough to say she is likely Town.
Spacelog is a Vet so I expect more from him than others. His content has been pretty good and he makes some really good points against Hado, but without a vote on Hado this concerns me greatly. He spent the better portion of his content on Hado, but doesn't vote him. I can see a world where he is just distancing from Hado here and if he isn't I'm not sure what he is doing.
Blarraun has hardly don enough to get his feet wet in this game. No real stances taken iirc and just pretty much has talked about the game rather than playing the game so much. I'm not really sure how to read him at this point so I'm going to say Null for now.
1 scum read, (maybe 2 w/ me?)
Rest null/town and most have something to make it acceptable to change to a scum read later on. Some even feel like he has a reason to scum lean (PMJ comes to mind from this list/reasons) but is still null.
Tbh, I expected more then this, which is ironic, due to his read on me.
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So we have a Gopher unvoting a person who he called deep red (hablo) for Blar, for a few different reasons. One of which I find boring (Meta one, the my reads are wrong blah blah blah) but is kinda wacky.
But could it come from scum? It is a very strange play tbh from scum. Not only do you put yourself out there for no reason other then another lynch (assuming that both Blar and Hablo in this case is town) to happen. But, not only do you already have major support from everyone else in the thread basically, but you also have a genuine reason to be on there.
And lets assume the other possibilities:
-Hablo is scum with Gopher. Slim already, but lets think. It gets another lynch going, but it really does not save Hablo what so ever. Or at least on paper it shouldn't. The way the thread was looking at it, Hablo was scum acrossed the board, or was in peoples FOS's field. Really High risk, High reward tbh.
(Tinfoil part of me could maybe see Hablo, if scum here again, already planning to claim Tracker. And his partner here, Gopher, was setting up a ML to be pushed.)
-Gopher/Blar is scum. Maybe? But that still puts a lot of pressure on Gopher early on and is a bit of a gambit. However, it could actually make sense in the end. As if one flips, the other is basically in town circles acrossed the board.
But Blar didn't seem ready to die, which would be something I might expect to see.
It could come from a scum!Gopher, but it really is such a risky play from a mafia, that I am going to read him as town for it.
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PMJ:
Whilst I admire your dedication, I do not believe your claim. Here’s why:
If you were “Blue”, you’re (obviously) town. Why, then, would you risk behaving so differently in such a position? Not only is it going to cause the townfolk to suspect you, it’s also going to be a red flag for the mafia. You aren’t exactly a ‘background character’ in these games. When you’re off-piste somehow, everybody stands up and takes notice. You know this. Why would you take such a stupid risk?
You wouldn’t. You’re smarter than that.
Like I said: you fucked it. I still think you’re a mafia, desperately clinging on. You hope that by making a quick switch to my new best friend, you’ll save your own arse. Everything coming from you over the past two pages reeks of desperation and surrender. If you are blue, you’re a tit. Let this be a lesson to you.
Also, whilst I appreciate the ‘’’’empathy’’’’, let us not overlook the fact that you made a weak ass case against me, wasting both my time and yours. You claim that I’m lost, but really – are you any better off?
I’m fairly certain there were better alternatives to pursue. You didn’t even really fight your corner; you just had a stab at me, threw your hands in the air in surrender and peace-d out. Not good enough.
My first reaction to this, was to gave town points to this. As he was specktual of the claim. But, after reading it closer, I am not sure. I like the stance, but the content in it isn't great IMO. Especially the bold, seems a bit twisty to me in a way.
I note it and move on for now.
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#170 is at least a bit better of a post from Blar.
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Sinny, or at least the lack of Sinny from the rest of D1,
Need to see how she reacted (I would do it tonight, but it is 10:40 PM ish at the time of this sentence) and I kinda want to go to bed (plus, mafia w/ being sleeping isn't the best idea)
Sinny just did her own thing. Nothing really till after the claim, and was a push for Yellow. I see a big post from here afterwards. so i start thereish tomorrow morning.
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QT's vote,
More of a reminder to me than a point. But here is something that is bothering me about this.
Idk how bad the forum lag was at the time, but he had 30 mins to skim and find why PMJ did not unvote. Why didn't he? I can understand if the forum was too laggy to do so (if someone who was there could tell me, that would be swell) He just seemed kinda wanting to just stay on PMJ.
I mean, he could of just look a page IIRC back to find it. "PMJ did not trust the claim, because PMJ thinks claim was for survival" done.
I Prob won't read to much into this, but if PMJ does ever flip scum, I will sus. qt hard.
--------------------------------------------------- Current reads based off what I read, and prob. will change.
Town, like 99%:
Hablo, uncced tracker. If you are a role to cc (counterclaim) then do so 1 lynch before Lylo. So if 1 is lieing, we can lynch both of you (as one of you are mafia.) instead of only 1.
Town reads (no order):
Gopher: Kinda think too much has to happen for him to be scum here. His post after lurking I liked a good deal, and the random flip-flop doesn't make much sense, expect maybe a Blar/Gopher team. But even still kinda is weak there. I might read a few more things from his filter, to iron out a read on more points, but right now I feel he is town from what I read.
Sete Kiba: No red flags that I've caught. interested on how they keep up later in the game. A bunch of stuff that makes me think they are town. Unless something heavily changes my mind, or I go back and find something i miss, they can be town for now.
Nulls (no order):
Sinny, going to skim what is d2 after this post. Will update read, but nothing I saw blew me away. Tone is again all I really have positive for her. Reactivation might tell something.
Scum
Blar, Maybe should be below QT. Idk tbh. That post just felt so disconnected it's kinda funny. On one side, he gives everything that is scummy of me, and states all that, just to end up with town reading me. Not only that, but he was saying that to PMJ, because of HIS town read on me.
And actually looking back to that read list. He, at the time, then beleives (?) in the RL excuses from Yellow. After saying that it was attempt or something to win him over or what not. Will go back later to check on this, as I just noticed that.
He reads and logic just doesn't add up. Unless I am missing something, or misunderstanding.
He has some decent posts though. I give him more of a look tomorrow morning.
QT, I kinda just find his play weak. Nothing about it really reminds me of what I had thought of what I have saw of his townself, going into this game. The 4 games might have something to do with it, but nothing is amazing from him. His read list is bland, and is both open for him to change any read on it basically to a scum read, and for that matter, only had 1 scum read. With maybe two on me. (I read somewhere, that the scum read on Hablo wasn't even that, but given how he interacted with Hablo before hand, save to say he thought Hablo was scum)
And the PMJ vote thing is weird too. But, not going to hold much to that, till someone tells me how bad it was.
Conflicted
PMJ, Some of me think he is town, another thinks he is scum. I honestly cannot decided on him. I keep bouncing back ideas that make me want to town read or scum read him. I feel like I am going to have to associative the guy, to determine if he is town or not. Which, would acquire a dead scum, unless I rough it.
I'll dive him I suppose tomorrow as well.
--------------------------------------------------------- Shapelog's to-do list
-Full Read and analyze d2 so far.
-Dive PMJ
-Look at sinny's reaction
-Hammer out Gopher read
-Something I bound to be forgeting
Yeah it sucks about yellow but honestly? I'm pretty fkn happy.
Vote SpaceDog
I do need to see you come back in and contribute. Since you haven't been replaced, but you have communicated with RB, you do intend on having sufficient internet to post. I need to see you use it.
If you really wanted to impress, and I'm not suggesting you do this but if I was, RB has already given me the clear to ask prod for QT's games and I see no reason that wouldn't extend to you, you could voluntarily supply links to your other games to show us how uniform your internet use has been. Ask RB first if you like.
If your use was consistent across games, it wouldn't prove you town or scum, but it would control for the disruption your internet outage has caused town. It's bad enough you missed a bunch of day one, that there need be any doubt as to whether your issue is real just further exacerbates the issue.
Also, you can find games there as well that I have played.
There is maybe something I can quote from it, but I think it is against the rules (even thou the game ended tonight a few hours ago) so I be safe since i have a warning
Also read sinny post a bit, More is going to be needed in looking at it then I can give rn.
Also @Host/RB, be careful btw of interacting with players this much in thread. If Hablo didn't claim Tracker and wasn't cced, people might think your interaction with him would prove him to be town.
Don't ask me why, people just do.
Big posts, blah blah blah. FOS everywhere,
Gopher replaced. Welcome new guy. Bart.
<3 to Hablo, since he likes those from his usage.
Alright, that I think is a wrap for tonight. (also hits the 3 content posts or death thing I was required to filled so Yippy Hi do)
Nope. Nice try though. (I know there's no roleblocker if I'm tracker, so this shouldn't give you a useful read though I appreciate the intention). I received a result, but I'm sitting on it for now.
I'm happy to see you because I've had the feeling that town has been brawling each other while mafia lurk. With Gopher being replaced, it's nice to see someone that I can hold to a standard of experience. It's sort of frustrating having to constantly reiterate what an experienced player takes for granted. It's made me feel kinda disengaged.
I think one of you three (gopher/fukyo, Spacedog, QT), are mafia. At least one. What are your thoughts on the other two?
Because ATM I'm not picking up any red off the actives. Not enough anyway. And that makes me think scum has been absent.
Well flipped a coin to see if I would answer you.....
Yeah, I forget about the matrix set up. TBh i should by now have it by heart, but I don't ever play with it.
Sit as long as you want, Maybe reveal it at EOD? Depends on the set up, and what is out there. And if you want to risk there being a doc or something (Since BP can only do it once IIRC) I would say something, but that would help mafia so pfffff
Lol, Newb's aren't cool enough for you Hablo? Kinda Ironic given how you wanted to protect them :P. But more seriously, There is prob. at least a active mafia out there (unless Gopher/QT is the mafia team lol)
I kinda take for granted we have newb games that vets can play in. Helps alot with it. I actually like have non-experienced players, as it is a fresh person, No meta, no past games, etc. There is also different ways to read them, but, if last game is anything to tell, I suck at it (Urak).
If I had to pick one of those two, QT. Already said why, but A lot of people are saying Gopher, and I just saw he changed his vote again. idk, gut says Gopher. QT, for reasons I said, just doesn't seem nearly as townie as Gopher did.
TBH, if all scum were inactive, then by POE, it has to be a team of Fuck/me (see what I did), me/QT, QT/Fuk(gopher). I am town, that I know, so it is only possible for QT/Fuk to be a inactive scum.
He wouldn't fight me as scum. We both tunneled each other's guts out last game. He's not a reckless player. He knows I'll counter-tunnel, he doesn't like attention at all. If I counter-tunnel and go down and flip green he dies the next day or is a strong candidate. All for what? To take out one player? No. As scum he plays diplomatically. He knows I scum-bait. He might vote me day one as any alignment, but he's not tunneling me day one ever. This read of yours is terrible.
He's also not clueless. Dunno if you knew that, but that's just his communication style. He disarms people as both town and scum. He is far from dumb town. He's a clever guy, who has a powerful style at mafia. While at times I admit I over-estimate the depth of his thoughts (since he's mostly an intuitive player), he is not someone you can give a shred of leniency to on the competence scale.
@Town
I'm now confident there won't be a counter-claim. It's too late. If they were going to do it then they would have done so already. So I'm not playing around that possibility anymore, and if it happens I submit myself to getting lynched first in order for them to definitely die.
So if I'm mafia I'm already dead, play as if I'm town knowing that it's okay for you to be wrong in this.
Consider that, if the counter claimant is lynched or NKed before they CC, their alignment is revealed and I'm dead immediately. So if I were mafia I'd have to keep blue roles alive in order to survive.
I'm also sick of catering word-wise to people I know not only to be wrong, but to have poor reasons for continuing to entertain poor ideas. So I'm just going to be confirmed town. kthx<3
Now... I don't know who you are, but you can trust me for the reasons stated above. There's eight players, and me and you are town. We have a 33% chance to lynch mafia today in a vacuum if you don't retard it up and make me suspect you (aka lurking). We can improve those odds. If we confirm a single person town that goes up to 40%. If we rule out two it's 50%. Personally, I've already ruled out two people (thought they remain unnamed for now), meaning it's at least 50/50. And that's just in a vacuum, without taking into consideration actual scumsign leaking from the scumpot.
So please. I need your reads. I need your activity. We need to narrow this shit down.
@Fukyo
To what degree do your opinions mirror Gophers? Do you understand the reasons he acted the way he did or is he as unreadable from the inside as he is from the out?
@Sinny
You've confirmed me town. This isn't normal. You know it's not normal. Do you now think you've got a good enough read on me to spot a scummy hado from a town one? Because last game one of the reasons I thought you were scum was because you weren't suspecting me. You're not suspecting me now.
@Doctor if you exist
If you fear for your life, who you saved is super important because they're confirmed town. That makes three of us assuming you didn't save me. I've also got three people on my list of not doc (four including me). So if you are counter-claimed there is a very high chance the other guy gets lynched first, which makes counter-claims very unlikely. I'm not telling you to claim (I'm telling you not to claim). But if it looks like you're going to die we need that confirmed town name from your lips, as well as the claim for your own survival.
Indeed, that's what caused so many people to pressure him day one. I don't like how he failed to convince us of being town without revealing his role. He could've at least tried to wait and stay in the shadows. Though I know that this is his 3rd game and in each he was accused and killed quickly so it would seem he has difficulty making others believe what he says.
And yes I'm being erratic, but for you (and I'll get others to confirm I'm not just bullshitting), I'm kind of confirmed town. By roleclaiming as tracker, I am either tracker or scum. If I'm scum, there's already at least one town member who knows it and can get me killed at any time by counterclaiming. Some newer players are having difficulty understanding this, but if you've got access to Gopher's notes this should be confirmed, or Blarraun can tell you, or (when they're on), QT or spacedog can confirm. I know you aren't in a position to counter-claim since I know I'm actually tracker.
Well yeah, I can vouch for Hado for the time being.
Anyway since I'm not perfectly familiar with the mechanics can someone answer is it possible for mafia to opt out of their night kill?
I am starting with this one, Since I already have reference to it I think 2 times now, and am dieing to point it out, since I do not think anyone else saw it.
This is the one post that I hate from Blar, because he states that I am a ideal mafia candidate, and has all these reasons on why I am scum, yet, ends up town reading me for being concise. Like, he has a whole paragraph, on why I am scum, or scummy things about me, but ends up town reading me for being on point? It doesn't make sense to me at all. It is so disconnected, that it doesn't make sense with any mindset.
And I understand him let say, proving or saying to PMJ (like I did) that his read is off due to X. But he calls me "ideal candidate for mafia" as if he thinks I am scum, yet town reads me, and had been townreading me. So it wasn't even like he was in the mindset (unless off screen) of "Shape is scummy to me, Need to investigate, oh but this post I like. I move him."
I just cannot wrap my head around it. His read says one thing, yet his mindset says another. I cannot even really think of a scum reason to do it, other then maybe make reads on me weaker (but, I was afk so idk) or to make pmj look worse.
I kinda want to bonk him on the head for the reply on yellow (#121), just due to his tone tbh. And painting EVERYTHING almost, about what X did, as fake. Even the BS about yellow RL excuse makes no sense to me, but, Idk what he is referring to (Since it is outside game info from their relationship) so i am ignoring that.
I was marking you green for your actions, but I was also doubting myself for it given your low post count and low initiative. So I was giving you a placeholder green status at the time of that post, whilst also expressing that in the future I will come to suspect you if you don't act.
It is mostly a problem with afk players that it's almost impossible to read them and lynching them yields random results, but it has to be done. If we leave lurkers be and fight among each other having no strong convictions for it, we would be shooting ourselves in the foot. I'm not sure how active mafia players are, but assuming for a moment they weren't among the lurks, it would be dream come true if all active players were NK'ed and lynched and all they had to do was wait till GM modkills the rest or they slowly do the NK.
If scum are among the inactives then there's no way to interact with them so as a way of using mass destruction they need to be wiped in case they are.
This is partly reasoning behind what I think about you and partly my explanation to everyone why games with afks suck and they need to be dealt with.
Oh you aren't liking what I did with Yellow. I didn't like her contradictions, I was pretty convinced that she was emotionally manipulating me and Gopher and I didn't want to risk accepting her town status based on emotive appeal. As exemplified here:
I've already explained how I believed her to be inexperienced, but this is on another level. It is an illogical argument to be made, regardless if she is town/scum. As if this game and its outcome had to have any bearing on the future. So my thinking at the time of voting Yellow was, either I'm removing very coercive and cornered scum or we're lynching an inexperienced noisy town who made more confusion than constructive work and she wouldn't be missed much (Sorry Yellow, I know you can do better).
Hope this answers the misunderstanding. I'm not sure I'm going to bother explaining it again.
Oh you aren't liking what I did with Yellow. I didn't like her contradictions, I was pretty convinced that she was emotionally manipulating me and Gopher and I didn't want to risk accepting her town status based on emotive appeal. As exemplified here:
Remember everyone: We need a town win. Three games of mafia win will suck (and probably compromise any chance we have of this game being fun here).
I've already explained how I believed her to be inexperienced, but this is on another level. It is an illogical argument to be made, regardless if she is town/scum. As if this game and its outcome had to have any bearing on the future. So my thinking at the time of voting Yellow was, either I'm removing very coercive and cornered scum or we're lynching an inexperienced noisy town who made more confusion than constructive work and she wouldn't be missed much (Sorry Yellow, I know you can do better).
Hope this answers the misunderstanding. I'm not sure I'm going to bother explaining it again.
Gonna pitch in that this read is solid. It mirrors my exact thoughts, and from what I gleaned off gopher, his as well. I actually pointed it out to Yellow via PM (I also told her not to reply until after I'm ded). Having done this insubstantial cheerleading, it detracted from the info dump behaviour I read as very green (the behaviour that had me jump off her case).
I don't think Blar would be so blatant as to just copy Gopher's ideas, and doing so wouldn't get points from gopher since gopher is now fukyo. I know he didn't take queues from me since I didn't indicate any doubt. So I think this is his genuine read.
I also don't think Blar had the tools to recognise the dump behaviour as green, since he was new. So this part of his argument at least resonates with me very well.
I also don't think Blar had the tools to recognise the dump behaviour as green, since he was new. So this part of his argument at least resonates with me very well.
You mean that time when she listed all her reads to help out even when she dies?
I'm on the fence. If I were scum, pretending to not care about my survival and selflessly sharing my final contributions would be one of the first tactics I'd employ.
I agree that someone inexperienced such as Yellow or myself (it's my first game) shouldn't be able to come up with that and yet I already thought of it by then, so as I greatly respect Yellow's intelligence I couldn't deny her the same.
Blar. You just said you found the manipulation post really scummy. But in the quote you're saying that if she's red she's a master manipulator. If you thought her a master manipulator, that implies you thought the 'manipulation' post genuine, as you were accepting it as a town move unless she was a master manipulator, which is unlikely.
You then later changed your mind apathetically:
I'm indecisive but both Yellow and Shapelog have similarly low town value.
I'm going to sleep so this is my last choice. I'm going with Yellow. Sorry this is how your performance went, but your death will not be in vain if you're clear. Spacelog I'd kill, but he's just lurk and lurk-wins don't count anyway, I'll have at least some consolation if I make the wrong call here.
I've already explained how I believed her to be inexperienced, but this is on another level. It is an illogical argument to be made, regardless if she is town/scum. As if this game and its outcome had to have any bearing on the future. So my thinking at the time of voting Yellow was, either I'm removing very coercive and cornered scum or we're lynching an inexperienced noisy town who made more confusion than constructive work and she wouldn't be missed much (Sorry Yellow, I know you can do better).
I'm skim-reading during breakfast here. It's nice to see that Squareblog finally joined us. Of course,his words of wisdom do not equate to his being green. I think the issue here is that I just don't trust anyone. I need more. Yesterday was fairly quiet.
Truth be told, I'm struggling even more with this game than I did the last, and (once again) it's Hado who has thrown me off-balance.
Seriously man, I think it's the JB avatar
16 hours until night time. I have a busy day with family today. My contributions haven't been the best thus far, but I haven't been the least active, either.
Sinny has. She's on the periphery all the time, and I don't like the way she defended Bla (I made a post about this a page or two back). Now, I should have time to make a reappearance this evening with a better post, and maybe even a change in vote, but until then I'm going to have to leave this here:
Vote Sinny
I think I had her wrong.
p.s. I had EIGHT. HOURS. of sleep last night. This hasn't happened in months.
I take people out of their comfort zones. It's kind a my shtick I guess. #ENTP
I need you to look at what Blar just did. His explanations do not at all match. He's completely rewritten his own story.
1) Before she's lynched, he unvotes her, saying that the only way she's scum is if she's a master manipulator.
2) Later he changes his vote back to Yellow with this explanation:
I'm indecisive but both Yellow and Shapelog have similarly low town value.
I'm going to sleep so this is my last choice. I'm going with Yellow. Sorry this is how your performance went, but your death will not be in vain if you're clear. Spacelog I'd kill, but he's just lurk and lurk-wins don't count anyway, I'll have at least some consolation if I make the wrong call here.
See how apathetic it is? If town it's an "I don't really know who to vote, and so I'll vote for whatever hurts my ego least when I'm wrong".
3) But his recollection of this event is nonsense:
I've already explained how I believed her to be inexperienced, but this is on another level. It is an illogical argument to be made, regardless if she is town/scum. As if this game and its outcome had to have any bearing on the future. So my thinking at the time of voting Yellow was, either I'm removing very coercive and cornered scum or we're lynching an inexperienced noisy town who made more confusion than constructive work and she wouldn't be missed much (Sorry Yellow, I know you can do better).
He's saying that as town he thought her appeal to emotion was utter bullshit. But at the time be bought it. He's saying that it was because she was low value, but at the time he mirrored my sentiment that:
Mmmm fuck. Now I don't want to lynch yellow (and yes I'm flip flopping like mad, but I don't need to appear town to you guys anymore so I'm just speaking my mind).
~ which sounds facetious but then look to the fact he unvoted her in the same post. He used flippant language but his actions were in accord with it.
He agreed with me that Yellow could not possibly have caught up to speed fast enough to know that info dumping before you die is a town action:
The things Yellow just did are green. Either she's read a guide or she's genuinely green, because this isn't what a first gamer scum does. If I take my vote off her I might be lynched. So if we want to land a kill on someone red, we need to coordinate. And I need to get ready for work! T-T
I know this is all getting a little confusing because I'm repeating etc. But this needs attention. This is enough to lynch someone with. DO NOT IGNORE IT. I WILL NOT HAVE PEOPLE MISS SOMETHING LIKE THIS WHEN IVE GONE TO SUCH EFFORTS TO BRING IT UP. DROP THE FUCK WHAT YOU'RE DOING AND GET IN ON THIS.
I'm skim-reading during breakfast here. It's nice to see that Squareblog finally joined us. Of course,his words of wisdom do not equate to his being green. I think the issue here is that I just don't trust anyone. I need more. Yesterday was fairly quiet.
Truth be told, I'm struggling even more with this game than I did the last, and (once again) it's Hado who has thrown me off-balance.
Seriously man, I think it's the JB avatar
16 hours until night time. I have a busy day with family today. My contributions haven't been the best thus far, but I haven't been the least active, either.
Sinny has. She's on the periphery all the time, and I don't like the way she defended Bla (I made a post about this a page or two back). Now, I should have time to make a reappearance this evening with a better post, and maybe even a change in vote, but until then I'm going to have to leave this here:
Vote Sinny
I think I had her wrong.
p.s. I had EIGHT. HOURS. of sleep last night. This hasn't happened in months.
I take people out of their comfort zones. It's kind a my shtick I guess. #ENTP
I need you to look at what Blar just did. His explanations do not at all match. He's completely rewritten his own story.
1) Before she's lynched, he unvotes her, saying that the only way she's scum is if she's a master manipulator.
2) Later he changes his vote back to Yellow with this explanation:
See how apathetic it is? If town it's an "I don't really know who to vote, and so I'll vote for whatever hurts my ego least when I'm wrong".
3) But his recollection of this event is nonsense:
He's saying that as town he thought her appeal to emotion was utter bullshit. But at the time be bought it. He's saying that it was because she was low value, but at the time he mirrored my sentiment that:
He didn't want to lynch her:
~ which sounds facetious but then look to the fact he unvoted her in the same post. He used flippant language but his actions were in accord with it.
He agreed with me that Yellow could not possibly have caught up to speed fast enough to know that info dumping before you die is a town action:
to which he replied:
I know this is all getting a little confusing because I'm repeating etc. But this needs attention. This is enough to lynch someone with. DO NOT IGNORE IT. I WILL NOT HAVE PEOPLE MISS SOMETHING LIKE THIS WHEN IVE GONE TO SUCH EFFORTS TO BRING IT UP. DROP THE FUCK WHAT YOU'RE DOING AND GET IN ON THIS.
Ok, Hado. We'll play it your way for a while. Bla was on my suspicion list anyway (although to be fair, so is fucking everyone at the moment). If Bla flips red, I think Sinny warrants further investigation. Bla's post re: Sinny defending him seemed very fabricated somehow. It didn't sit right at all with me.
Also, now Sinny votes Bla as he comes under greater scrutiny, abandoning her previous defence of him (in which she's basically falling over herself to assert his town-ness).
Ok, Hado. We'll play it your way for a while. Bla was on my suspicion list anyway (although to be fair, so is fucking everyone at the moment). If Bla flips red, I think Sinny warrants further investigation. Bla's post re: Sinny defending him seemed very fabricated somehow. It didn't sit right at all with me.
Also, now Sinny votes Bla as he comes under greater scrutiny, abandoning her previous defence of him (in which she's basically falling over herself to assert his town-ness).
Oh and btw PMJ, welcome to the confirmed badtown club!
Population: You and me thus far.
You're bad at town, but at least I think you're town right? ^-^
This is more of an intuition read than anything, but I just cannot model your actions as a scummer, while I don't have too much difficulty believing you have no idea what you're doing.
Actually... I'll admit, there has been at least one decent thing you've said that influenced my thinking. I'll point it out after the game.
I don't like how PMJ seems to be getting away with this act. You would think as a town he wouldn't have fallen into such behaviour but as a mafia when pressed he very well would. You keep telling me he is smart in his plays after all.
I do believe Sinny may be outmetaing us. A gut feeling.
Fukyu seems to have gone into the game with the same ease I saw from Gopher, I don't see this as indicative of a mafia role.
Mafia leans - QT and PMJ
slight mafia lean - Sinny
null read- space as always
town leans fukyu.
Also, next day could be the last so a Counterclaim on hado if it exists should probably be done today.
I want Blar to answer to hado before I share my thoughts on him.
Oh, nothing on the read more on the way she acts. First dumb carefree and aggressive but failing to keep it up she goes on the defensive, then she goes downright repressive and calm. Seeing her RL issues atm I would expect her to vent instead. I just used the word meta because it caught in my head(from reading her say it) when I couldn't adequately explain the feeling to myself.
What? This makes perfect sense to me. I changed my mind after this post.
I actually changed my mind a number of times before I made the final vote.
Also note that I'm not always providing every option that I find plausible and usually at any point in time I hold many views on the same issue.
I could tell you that you are 90% town and 10% scum, but it wouldn't make much sense to any of you, so I tend to strip down my reasoning into linear conclusions.
You could be right. I might just be a sucker for these things. How do you explain Yellow's retard mode accusation into last ditch defence?
To me she's consistently inexperienced, this would explain missing info on the game or getting tangled up. I know she's the kind of person to know how to appeal, but I have no past knowledge of her being in newbie posts so I don't know how she could act.
I'm not sure why you're overreacting and picking up on nothing all of the sudden.
I'd suggest you get your act together and start following real threats.
I know this is all getting a little confusing because I'm repeating etc. But this needs attention. This is enough to lynch someone with. DO NOT IGNORE IT. I WILL NOT HAVE PEOPLE MISS SOMETHING LIKE THIS WHEN IVE GONE TO SUCH EFFORTS TO BRING IT UP. DROP THE FUCK WHAT YOU'RE DOING AND GET IN ON THIS.
Hado, I'm warning you, your play is scummy as hell. It means either you have no better leads than this nonsense on me, or you're pretending you're trying your best. I'm surprised a player of your caliber can't find anything better to do than to pick smoke and mirrors that you are setting up yourself.
It's also cherry picking since you've ignored a number of my other post that followed that clearly show my indecision as well as yours.
There's a post where you switch to Shapelog where I decide to ignore your decision seeing how all over the place you were. Yes I decided to trust myself rather than trust you which, I think you can't argue, is a way better strategy most of the time.
I'm indecisive but both Yellow and Shapelog have similarly low town value.
I'm going to sleep so this is my last choice. I'm going with Yellow. Sorry this is how your performance went, but your death will not be in vain if you're clear. Spacelog I'd kill, but he's just lurk and lurk-wins don't count anyway, I'll have at least some consolation if I make the wrong call here.
I have you as saying:
- I don't want to lynch Yellow
- Given her lack of experience (greendumping) is not something she should be able to catch onto
- If
Remember everyone: We need a town win. Three games of mafia win will suck (and probably compromise any chance we have of this game being fun here).
is a lie, Yellow is just too good at deception. As in, she has your respect if she's a scum who's lying.
to this:
You could be right. I might just be a sucker for these things. How do you explain Yellow's retard mode accusation into last ditch defence?
To me she's consistently inexperienced, this would explain missing info on the game or getting tangled up. I know she's the kind of person to know how to appeal, but I have no past knowledge of her being in newbie posts so I don't know how she could act.
Yellow might not have played a lot but she is a psychologist that has spent a lot of time observing us. I would not put this past her. I don't see anything she did as a clear.
(feel free to correct, after all you knew where your attention was at the time while I do not)
and you somehow got convinced to change your view to this:
I'm indecisive but both Yellow and Shapelog have similarly low town value.
I'm going to sleep so this is my last choice. I'm going with Yellow. Sorry this is how your performance went, but your death will not be in vain if you're clear. Spacelog I'd kill, but he's just lurk and lurk-wins don't count anyway, I'll have at least some consolation if I make the wrong call here.
I've already explained how I believed her to be inexperienced, but this is on another level. It is an illogical argument to be made, regardless if she is town/scum.
It's illogical to make as town or scum? How is that at all consistent with you buying it hook line and sinker, causing you to unvote her immediately? If it's illogical to do what she did as either alignment, why did you let it sway you? You should have been really confused and been all "WTF I duneven" but instead you were like "if you're scum this was an impressive play".
So at first you thought that it was impressive as scum, and convincing as town. Now you think it makes no sense as either alignment. Why?
It's illogical to make as town or scum? How is that at all consistent with you buying it hook line and sinker, causing you to unvote her immediately? If it's illogical to do what she did as either alignment, why did you let it sway you? You should have been really confused and been all "WTF I duneven" but instead you were like "if you're scum this was an impressive play".
It's illogical to make as both, as was much of her activity leading up to that moment. I withheld to wait and see what others may have to say about it, but in absence of convincing lines I wend with my original plan.
Also yes, I reacted empathically and accepted this appeal, but then my error correction algorithms kicked in and insisted that I could be making a mistake. I had less qualms about killing a potential town Yellow, because of her confusing act and lacking communication. Similarly as an example, excluding all other variables I'd be more willing to lynch PMJ whom I can't read, rather than lynch Sete. That way there's less people I can't read around and potentially more chances to pick up on something.
No, you're misquoting. I've never suggested it was a masterful appeal as scum. It is an emotional appeal regardless of alignment since it is a fallacious rhetorical claim. I thought that town Yellow wouldn't resort to manipulation, but I know that sometimes the good guys just can't find anything better to say in order to survive.
I think I'm somewhat biased regarding the emotional side in that I'd like to believe it, but at the same time I feel like it's the best way to trick me so I should be extra guarded.
You did not think that if she was scum, she was playing well? You simultaneously thought that this was a demonstration of mastery, while also being a bad play? Despite you knowing at that time that in the scenario she was scum, her ploy had worked? That despite your utmost skepticism, if she was scum, she had just forced you to change your mind and there was nothing you could do about it?
You now say that:
I've never suggested it was a masterful appeal as scum.
So it's a conditional right? If she being dishonest, she is a master of emotional appeal. If this is not dishonest, she is town.
If you're now claiming you didn't think she was a master of emotional appeal, then you're claiming you thought she was town and that you hung her anyway.
I take it that the truth value you were discussing was not that it would suck for town or whatever, but that she was town. You were discussing the truth value of the 'we' she was using. Right?
Answer me this: Assuming you are town, now that we've refined what was said down to this contradiction, what do you think of my alignment? Do you think I'm making up nonsense, and that my play is "scummy as hell"? Or do you think that I'm being reasonable in attacking you here because you've legit fucked up (again, assuming you're town)?
So it's a conditional right? If she being dishonest, she is a master of emotional appeal. If this is not dishonest, she is town.
If you're now claiming you didn't think she was a master of emotional appeal, then you're claiming you thought she was town and that you hung her anyway.
I take it that the truth value you were discussing was not that it would suck for town or whatever, but that she was town. You were discussing the truth value of the 'we' she was using. Right?
Bad conditional sentence on my part. Anyhow; It was a lie all the time (objectively speaking), but I chose to believe (accept) it having her emotions and best intentions as guide.
Answer me this: Assuming you are town, now that we've refined what was said down to this contradiction, what do you think of my alignment? Do you think I'm making up nonsense, and that my play is "scummy as hell"? Or do you think that I'm being reasonable in attacking you here because you've legit fucked up (again, assuming you're town)?
I see you as town. What I meant by saying that you're being scummy as hell can be visualised twofold: You're doing a bad job and barking the wrong tree + I'm just detracting a few % off your helpful town value into viewing you as more detrimental factor.
There are two things to consider here, utility (value) and alignment. Even when your alignment is green, you may still be confusing the baby jesus of everyone else and helping scum. Would I choose to lynch you in the absence of better targets being fully certain you were town because you were helping mafia and making mistakes? Yes I would and I will go against you if I don't trust you can lead us to victory.
I think you're wasting a bit of your time, but at the same time I can't peer into your mind and I can't tell what other motives and doubts are there, so if you find it necessary to question me like that, then by all means be my guest. I will change my mind about your incessant questioning when we begin to run out of time, but for now I can go along.
So what she said was a lie even though she was definitely town? The tone of the post rings false, even though we have every reason that, since she was town, she genuinely wanted town to win?
Okay so you called me scummy but you think I'm town? I forced you to take a stand there, to call me scum or to never attack me again. But before I made you make that stand, you called me scummy, even though you thought I was town. You wanted to fling shit at me, calling me scum, in ways that can be picked up by other player's imaginations, but you didn't think I was scum.
Your poorly phrased conditional had you say that Yellow was either both scum and an emotional master, or a town, and you don't think she was an emotional master. So you voted a town.
You now call me scummy, even though you think I'm town, and only retract it when called out on it.
Furthermore, your explanation that, by 'scummy', you meant 'incompetent' doesn't make sense. Because if you fucked up, which even if town you now believe that you did, having acknowledged the ambiguity of your words, it is not incompetent of me to be attacking you for it. You are not someone that blames your mistakes on others. So to a town Blarraun, right now, you're saying "shit I just gave Snuggy good reasons to tunnel me even though I'm town". You're not saying "man Snuggy's so bad for tunneling me when I just chainfucked the hell out of myself as town". If you believe me town, you believe that you have misled me, that I am carrying out my function as town in hammering the shit out of the inconsistent crap you have provided. You do not perceive me as "the detrimental factor" because you're the one that utterly fucked up.
So your reaction to my aggression also doesn't make sense, coming from the parts of Blarraun I do know, the parts that don't blame others for their own mistakes.
And this is just what I've gleaned from this particular interaction.
Let's think for a second about how you've spent an awful lot of time thinking about blueroles, which is nothing you need to do as town, while utterly failing to hunt scum. Day one your vote was basically justified by saying that if they were town, they weren't useful. You've actively thought about who's blue, but not about who's red?
How about, how last game you game out guns absolutely fucking blazing, achieving about as much in five minutes as you have this entire game. Now this game, you're meek, then you play like PMJ with all bluster and stuff that doesn't suit you, but still fail to make cases?
How about that point at which you sucked up to PMJ super hard by mirroring his mannerisms?
How about that time that instead of hunting scum, you preferred to introduce wifom by asking about whether mafia could opt out of NK? Then didn't follow up on it. As if you just wanted someone, anyone, to start thinking in circles about the tiniest chance that mafia would deliberately opt out of their main weapon, in order to possibly sew discord?
Your mind hasn't been on hunting mafia this entire game. You've been incredibly ambiguous, and the directions of your ambiguity have been pretty damn uniformly scum aligned.
I think you're scum. And I think you're soon to be a dead one.
You're at three votes ATM. I can't see anyone piling onto anyone else anytime soon. On the off-chance you are town (and it's a damn small chance) you need to start slamming down your reads and everything so that when you're dead we can work from what your most genuine thoughts were. Don't put in your thoughts on blue roles unless it builds a case on someone. I'm headed to bed.
@Everyone else
You've read the case, it's not shitpost. Blarraun has been suspicious to pretty much everyone, and he is not the kind of person incapable of articulating his thoughts. The chances that he constantly falls all over himself when he's got nothing to hide is pretty close to zero. We've got the intuition that he's scummy, we have a lack of town flavoured behaviour, we've got blatant inconsistencies between who he thinks are town and his actions towards them, and we've got an otherwise harshly articulate person somehow tongue tied. He is scum. Vote him as such.
I will be up two-three hours before the lynch. Goodnight.
If you can't make up your mind let me show you the trick:
Let everyone assume I'm scum and forget about me. It's my lynch day, my bad. I failed to communicate clearly and I couldn't convince you. It's just as much my mistake as it is yours.
Now that we've established that I'm a goner, let's move on to more pressing matters. Who is your second mafioso? Which person do you suspect or want to get rid of second most?
There are a few more hours before the dusk and you should make use of them as best as you can. I'm specifically using "you" because we are going with the assumption that I'm scum/lynch material.
It would be best if in your reasoning you didn't make the association between me and scum. I messed up, I'm a poor townie and I couldn't prove my case, I really think it's more important to focus on something else.
I stand by removing QT after I'm gone due to his inactivity, let's be frank, you won't be able to read him because his posting and involvement are minimal.
After that I think you have to make a choice, either you place your bet on Hado and bandwagon according to his will, or you come up with better ideas, Hado is just one person, him being town doesn't make his reasoning any more useful or correct in finding real mafia.
Hado is being Hado and he can't understand me as he admits he can't historically. Hado is making a mistake I was expecting him to make, no big deal. I want to see some more activity before I'm lynched.
Also consider that Hado may die as well and you will be left in the dark, we can't expect the doctor to successfully protect everyone and I'm not a doctor so we'll have to see who's the next NK target.
It is incorrect to draw assumptions of scuminess from misunderstandings and poor comprehension of intent of another player. Scum doesn't play differently, they don't make more mistakes than town players, they don't really need to influence the course of the game as long as they feel safe.
In this situation, when town is killing 2 of their own, scum can be very glad to play along to the tune played by the village idiot, who in this case is Hado. I think, unless we are dealing with serious errors or misplays the chance of the voted person being scum is random, your "tells", comparisons and questioning didn't do much to help you, scum have no reason to give you information that is any different from what a townie would.
In many cases, questioning is key for amending own biases and tunneling, not really getting anything useful from the targeted person.
If QT were more active I'd change my vote to Sinny, who not only first described me favourably, but now is obliviously following others into a kill that would supposedly go against her green read for me.
I'm rather dissatisfied with how inactive some players are, I think it is to our disadvantage that we are very active. It only leaves more info and safety for lurkers.
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