I had a 5-day weekend. It ended Monday morning (about 12 hours after the game started). I'm catching up, I have an employee out and 2 clients relapsed while I was gone. So I've been trying to keep up without making excuses for my absence, but I think it's affected my energy level. I really wanted to play without filters. I spend my whole life self-censored. This game seemed like the perfect place to not be so composed. Unfortunately, I am especially restrained when busy/stressed (which I realize is opposite the way real humans operate). It sucks. Anyway, I will try to keep up the abrasive guns-blazing fun, but I might regress to being a more reasonable person from time to time.
Sinny: I'm still annoyed by the laziness of her approach. Town's job isn't to convince people they are town, their job is to play for a town win. In the last game, I saw so much time spent trying to claim town (by everyone, not her in particular), and I think that's a major reason why mafia won. So when she started out with "I'm town", it was irksome. My thought was "this is scummy, but even if she is town, we're not going to win with this kind of dead weight".
Sete: Is confusing. When I think about it, I get stuck in a WIFOM circle. I don't think deliberately adding to confusion is a healthy town behavior, but I can't tell if he's doing it deliberately.
Shapelog: I don't feel like you're saying much, though. A lot of repeats ad regurgitation. It's more like you're recapping than contributing. I haven't taken the time yet to look for a telling bias in your recaps, but it's not like they are going anywhere.
Blarraun: It's occurred to me that he could be mafia. He's posting just enough to be considered active, but the posts have a narrow feel, He's focusing on small segments of the thread, and leaving wide swaths unaddressed. I have a gut feeling like he's avoiding something. I want to come back to that too when I have more time.
Hadoblado: He's being weird. I get a feeling of misdirection. I also worry that he's going to focus more on proving he's town than on scum-hunting. I don't understand the purpose of posting a lot and saying little. Better the other way around, I think. That is, if he cares about winning the town condition. I suppose, though, that this puts him more into Sinny's category for now.
PMJPMJ: I think he's one that will manage to slip past us if he's scum. He has an some kind of abrasive charisma that at least I find hard to read. He's like Blarraun in that he posts just enough to not be a lurker, and similarly, he seems to be missing things, but I think his demeanor leaves less excuse for these lapses. I want to reserve judgement until I see more. Either that or vote him on principle. Haven't decided.
QuickTwist: I dunno. He's disappeared. I want to see more. I don't have any kind of read on him yet.
Gopher: Same.
It occurs to me as I say all this: we put ourselves in the limelight, and therefore invite scrutiny. What about those remaining on the periphery. Between PMJ, QT, Gopher, and Blar, there is likely at least one scum. I want to see more activity and/or pressure.
Was I pressed at some point? Did I miss it? What was the press about? Again, if you asked a question and you feel like I skipped it, please let me know.
Firstly, I'm defaulting on my promise to protect the three noobs. If they wanted me to I would have held of hanging them day one, but they've all been rightly suspicious of my offer. Only Blar is yet to really contribute, and he seems almost offended at the notion I might go easy.
In retrospect, it was probably too ambitious anyway. I was ruling them out as if it were a 13 player game, but it's a 9 player game. It's pretty bad to narrow down your targets to five based on principle. (Four if you count that I'm trying to avoid attacking gopher).
For what it's worth, while I would have held off hanging anyone that required the protection day one, if they weren't suitably struggling, this would have put them in deep shit day two. The reads I got from this are that Sete and Yellow are scripting (but by now you've both revealed, so only my QT stands testament), and Blarraun is a bit scummy. I'm still tentative about hammering blar, because he can be sensitive at times, and I have a lot of difficulty understanding how he thinks even outside of mafia. If Blar had have embraced my protection after soft-friending me (talking how helpful I've been), I would have been deeply suspicious. I expected him to turn on me if town, and he did, but only took a soft position. So yeah, mild red read.
Yes. I'm saying it's either one or the other and neither are good for town. I'd drop it, but she keeps doing it. She keeps spewing one-liners as if we're expected to just trust her. She needs to put in the work.
@Sinny - Don't just say "Yellow is scummy". Tell me why. GAWD I sound like a writing teacher now, don't I? Tear me a new one, if you must. Make a rock-solid case against me and start the bandwagon that will get me lynched, if you think that's what's best for town.
@back to Hado, I think that deliberately holding back substance is scummy, and if all this poking and prodding doesn't work, then I might switch my vote back to her.
I backed off before (or tried) because a couple people pointed out that this is just Sinny being Sinny. I think following that train of thought is almost insulting to her. I know that right or wrong, Sinny is capable of making a case. I don't think this is asking too much.
Also, because I think you're a slightly better lead ATM, but that may change with the next few hours.
So Hado,
Who do you think is scummiest right now? Why, exactly?
Who do you think is most townish right now? Why, exactly?
Okay, basically my timezone ended with my last post. Technically ended before that but I couldn’t sleep. I’ve woken up now. I’ve sort of skimmed the thread since then so everything I’m posting was either in my notes before or a bit after midnight to four.
First up the major reason I posted even less than I intended was.... I think Hado is scum. At least at the time there is one thing I’m scratching my head at. Anyway, it should be obvious why I would keep quiet under those circumstances. One of the reasons I thought Hado was scum was intuition. Generally last game when I was interacting with Hado I thought he was scum and when I wasn’t I thought he was town. Which is why when we made our truce/night happened I made the “I think he’s town” post and then why later it deteriorated. However without interacting with him at all... I STILL though he was scum. However instead of jumping on it I decided to wait because interacting with him (even giving him posts to talk to me at) would have cemented that read and we would have the flame war of last game.
Okay first post out the gate, talks about the super active townies Sinny, QT, and Yellow. I hate this type of statement. Anyway on to the larger problems. Hado and I both discussed lurking before the game. He even said he is scripting (aka has a set strategy, although now I think about it he did talk about rolling dice) and I really assumed he would post less. You know honestly it might be easier to just post my raw note for this section.
Man hado why so scummy. Every single game. First you say you aren't going to post much in the pre-game then you do post a lot. Most of it fluff, questions or role theory. Now sure he did this last game however last game he didn't say he would hold back and he came out swinging at me. Then when I push him on it he flips and says well sure I'll hold back more... then doesn't. Also specifically saying he won't vote the new people was sus. Maybe allied with one?
Also another problem I have is... Hado is really easy to lynch when he’s town. However not THIS easy, according to my notes nearly everyone hates him. Although I’m more split on what this means. I’m not lost on the irony of him being lynched third day of game one, second day of game two and potentially first day of game three.
Anyway I’m losing my train of thought. So I’ll post what I wrote up last night when you asked me about Yellow and QT.
Okay to Sinny about Yellow and QT. Well I disliked QT for making me like him. In other words maybe his compliment was an attempt at buddying? I mean it's true of course I'm a genius (:P) but I'm also very good at getting people lynched and that’s something mafia abused last game. As far as actually reading him I have zero confidence and that terrifies me. He seems to play more the RB, or in this game Yellow/Blar style of posting which I am notoriously bad at reading. (to many paragraphs not enough emotion) My scary list has changed dramatically with all the heavyweights coming in. (QT, Spacelog, still a bit on hado but that's simply because I would never hear the end of losing to him) I'm also worried about Yellow simply because psychologist. However as far as reads go I didn't like how Yellow went after you. Now the action itself was fine just... You seem back to your normal self and while you did get a heap of tips on how to play scum my intuition is back to not being worried about you (much like spectating your first game). Yellow from memory only really has reads on you and Hado and that seems awfully calm yet still jumpy? A mix of reactions that just doesn't sit right yet. It's very nebulous though at least those are my thoughts at the point of writing this which is 4 am my time.
I’m starting to run short on time since this first day/night period I actually have stuff to do for a change. (Doesn’t mean I’m town just explains why I won’t be here, also I’ll try to avoid it but I may end up at the doctors when the lynch goes down) Don’t worry I can be here all night though. Because of that I’ll just post my raw notes in a spoiler if anyone wants to read them.
However first questions.
Hado can you explain your actions regarding the lurking not lurking but fluffing style of play. (talking of god?) Other people already asked you about the town calling so I’ll go re-read it when I get back.
Qt what’s your current opinion of Sinny. In my notes you seemed to flip flop on her a little? Something about not thinking she was faking it yet still thinking she was scum.
Yellow, well unfortunately I don’t really have questions for you since it’s mainly intuition based on my Sinny read. However it’s the type of intuition that picked up Sinny day one last game yet I couldn’t act on it. Hmm maybe if you could just... keep posting?
However did Sinny really accidentally scum claim in her first post? Seems unlikely although she knows she needs to act massively differently from last time if she is scum. Hado comes out with yay active townies when Sinner, Qtpie and Yhello have posted. He did the same thing last game with Ika iirc though. However maybe it's lack of suspicion? He's also incorrect on the roleblocker thing well they would know two possible setups anyway. If he does flip scum unlikely to have a rb? If so then we have a tracker and mafia has a goon. Could be wifom though.
Also what on earth was hado posting about God. Strange post very fluff after him saying pre-game he wasn't going to do that.
Yellow says best chance of winning is mafia lynch day one. Well she may not know that's technically inaccurate but it is a small game so maybe.
Man hado why so scummy. Every single game. First you say you aren't going to post much in the pre-game then you do post a lot. Most of it fluff, questions or role theory. Now sure he did this last game however last game he didn't say he would hold back and he came out swinging at me. Then when I push him on it he flips and says well sure I'll hold back more... then doesn't. Also specifically saying he won't vote the new people was sus. Maybe allied with one?
Blar mentioned having nothing to talk about if not for Hado's posts. Scum sign?
Huh Qt did something strange. Sinny was -2 on my spreadsheet of his opinion but then said he didn't think she was faking it. He also could be trying to buddy with me?
(Edit: Just so you know I completely changed my mind on this part however I will keep the spreadsheet close to my chest for the most part since it's something mafia probably would want.)
Hado just so you know I saw your post around midnight but decided to keep lurking. Do with that what you will. Feel free to correct me. However I think giving reads as a lurker style town gives quite a large benefit to the scum team compared to overly vocal people at least for the first day (real time) when they're trying to work out who they can get a lynch on. Particularly considering who I'm eyeing up... Keeps then wondering if they're going to get stabbed by a surprise case/won't know where the support is coming from. That said while I will start posting more actual posts when I get back from physio the one strat which will make perfect sense I'll probably post it tonight before bed and let people do with it what they will.
This next one was posted slightly later.
Also, you are my biggest suspicion right now. Now I know har har lets not repeat last game but last game I was suspicious of you at every interaction we had and not suspicious of you every time we didn't interact. That's why over the period we weren't interacting and night 1 I thought you were town but flipped when I was interacting with you. Long story short I haven't been interacting with you at all and you still seem suspicious. So I waited. I didn't want to make another post that night in case confirmation bias kicked in and felt it best.
Also on top of that on my spreadsheet (which is my alternative to jaw clenching) also that's another thing I changed from last game. When you mentioned later that your spreadsheet would have made the right associations once I flipped I figured maybe I could use one. Anyway, you are the top suspect from the majority of people. You do however have a few neutral people and one or two very mild people on you which could be a soft bus or just nothing at all. Also fun facts from the spreadsheet machine Sinny is the most controversial. I'm would almost be tempted to lynch her for information since it's pretty much split to the point where it comes out to 0 overall. Would that is... if I wasn't on the other side of that equation. The only people who haven't given their opinions on Sinny is Blar and Spacelog. (written at 1:30am)
Blar and Quick twist seem to be the only people who think hado is town. Given how easy he is to lynch when he isn't mafia and comparing it to now where he seems super easy to lynch.... it doesn't feel right.
Okay to Sinny about Yellow and QT. Well I disliked QT for making me like him. In other words maybe his compliment was an attempt at buddying? I mean it's true of course I'm a genius (:P) but I'm also very good at getting people lynched. <_< As far as actually reading him I have zero confidence and that terrifies me. He seems to play more the RB, or in this game Yellow/Blar style of posting which I am notoriously bad at reading. (too many paragraphs not enough emotion) My scary list has changed dramatically with all the heavyweights coming in. (QT, Spacelog, still a bit on hado but that's simply because I would never hear the end of losing to him) I'm also worried about Yellow simply because psychologist. However as far as reads go I didn't like how Yellow went after you. Now the action itself was fine just... You seem back to your normal self and while you did get a heap of tips on how to play scum my intuition is back to not being worried about you (much like spectating your first game). Yellow from memory only really has reads on you and Hado and that seems awfully calm yet still jumpy? A mix of reactions that just doesn't sit right yet. It's very nebulous though at least those are my thoughts at the point of writing this which is 4 am my time.
True. This is a different context. I'm not judging you as person, I'm judging you as a player in a game where the entire point is to judge players. I get to let loose the reigns, in a manner of speaking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinny91
"She's either scum or lazy Town!".. I have a hard time believing that Yellow would dismiss so many other variables.
Everyone is either scum or town, since RB's matrix doesn't include outside roles. Also, everyone is trying to appear town, the only way we know someone is town is by their actions. You just decided to claim town out the gate. That's lazy play. So... unless you wanna claim a PR (which will still just be town or mafia, and would still be lazy play), you're either scum or lazy town. We've run out of variables.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinny91
Effect I was aiming for.. so.. win.
I'm just a Townie who wasn't sure of the rules.
Dammit, woman!
The only way to hop out of the rut is to start scum-hunting. Feel free to start with me, since I'm the biggest bee in your bonnet. At least it'll be some show of effort.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinny91
And that would be any more helpful to Town than my opening post?
As a side note, RVS is the first stage of the game, and stands for Random Voting Stage. The point of RVS is to get out of RVS. Your very first post was enough to get us out of RVS. Thank you for jump-starting the game!
Quote:
Originally Posted by PmjPmj
Sinny[ definitely seems like the proverbial bull in a china shop at the moment, but I’m not ready to place a vote on her yet. This is largely because of the easily discernible contrast in her play style between this game (already) and the last.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seteleechete
This kind of audaciousness and bluntness is far more in line what I would expect from Sinny if she was townie, then again it could be a trick to make us believe so and defend her on that obvious basis but that's somewhat weak reasoning and it's certainly enough for me to preferably not vote for her on day 1.
You guys do have a good point. This isn't crazy behavior for Sinny. Still, it was a good place to start until I had someone better. I might come back to Sinny later, but for now,
unvote Sinny
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seteleechete
*about hado*
Idk about that, seems like the standard technique of placation and "bringing" us to your side by way of being friendly. It does nothing but raise red flags in my eyes. The controlling part is standard for you but honestly, you also seems a bit too defensive in general for my liking and read on you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seteleechete
*about hado*
Funny guy, I got to this point after I already started having suspicions. With you being aware of the own deficiencies and that I would probably notice it, it does allay some but not all of my suspicion in this matter(since it's no longer a spontaneous read).
Someone who has already realised that playing half-assed is the best way to get you lynched can no longer be protected by it(and yes that includes me). In fact going this ham as an expectation is slightly suspicious I'd say. Particularly when you point it out as a defensive measure. Seems more indicative of a panicky attack than anything else to me.
Overall I don't like how Hado is playing, it's counterproductive towards a town win by first targeting more experienced players and secondly using cheap tricks to win us over while quietly picking off potential real opposition. (I particularly dislike your somewhat non-aggressive and quiet vote for Sinny). Attack a potential town antagonist that can stir things up and build quiet support from Yellow towards your position.
The only real redeeming quality is how it's obvious from previous games that it's something he could do, but he clearly knows that as well.
Hadoblado
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickTwist
This is a reasonable observation, but I have actually noticed something a little different in Hado. It seems he is putting on reservation making reads on people so far. It is still early, however. In any case, we should watch for the stances that Hado does take.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickTwist
*to Hado*
...some things aren't lining up with the way I am seeing them. I don't know that I like you taking most of you time talking about just Sinny here, but again I can see it a bit since Sinny has already been kind of a focal point in the game.
You are all saying what I was thinking. Sete's argument seems quite decent too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hadoblado
Sete's aggression is... kind of unexpected actually. But oh well. I don't know what to make of it. They could be enthusiastic, in which case power to them. Or they could be taking advantage of the fact I've handicapped myself into not retaliating. It doesn't really matter to me (or not a priority atm) since I've stated I won't be attacking nooblers on day one and I'll stick with it.
@Sete
Let me be clear. I have no intention of getting on your good side. It's not how I operate. It would look really bad if I were smarming like that this early. I was signalling more to the players that were in last game than I was to you. I need them to know that I've got reasons for acting differently, since otherwise they'll assume that it's because my alignment has changed. My 'style' is to have everyone suspicious of me, but not so much I get hanged. Recent games on this forum have had me getting hanged as town, so I need to adjust the level at which I grate on people. There are other elements too, such as the way last game exhausted everyone with the constant posts (and aggression begets post mass), but you'll have to take the word of the people who played or read it on that. Defensive? Huh. That's an odd word to use.
The awkwardness of this defense worries me some. Sete's was just one vote against you, and it would blow over quickly. It also strikes me as too defensive. I don't get why you're trying to talk so much and contribute so little. You keep saying that Day 1 is so telling. You seem to be trying to get everyone to do a the telling (which I actually appreciate a lot), but you're doing little telling of your own.
Now, you say that you're having anxiety issues, and I believe you, but, that doesn't mean you're town. Just like I believe that Blarraun is moving to a new city, but that doesn't make him town. Just like I believe Gopher when he says that he wants to lurk a little more, but that doesn't make him town. Just like I believe that PMJ is sick, but that doesn't make him town. Just like I have no idea where the fuck Shapelog is, but that doesn't make him town.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hadoblado
Also QT you're more than just an intuition player aren't you? You can be quite articulate and you're prodding in all the right directions. FWIW you seem town to me (outside of a few frustrating elements). The only question is whether you're coming across as town because you're town, or because you're just that much better at scumming than I am at hunting scum.
This is such a strange thing to say too, when you consider everything else you'd said thus far. First, how on earth can anyone be read as town yet? This itself seems like you're trying to placate QuickTwist, even though there's little to placate. (I've run out of finding-quotes-steam, here) Same with your joke about sidling up to PMJ. It was clumsily done. You're trying to make us see you a certain way and simultaneously pretend you're not trying to make us see you a certain way.
I'm also uncomfortable with your pressure on QuickTwist to access his previous games, especially after the mod discouraged it. It's another awkward distraction.
This feels fabricated. Why? How much effort did you put in?
@Sinny
I’m drawing patterns from knowing myself, knowing gopher, having personally dominated the two previous games here, gopher having gone even further than I did in the most recent one, having played in one game with him on TL, and talked at length with both Gopher and DP about Gopher’s meta (the shitposting one), as well as just in general, (I’m pretty sure) both gopher and myself landing in the top two posters every single game for the duration of our survival. As well as, people laughing at me right now for how much I’m posting while saying I’m not going to post, while I literally have thousands of words of unposted posts as evidence of my self-restraint.
Your questions are weird. I’m having difficulty modelling the goal to which they are directed.
Spacedog:
Why did you vote sinny, if your goal is to not make accusations, and, not to be a active pusher?
I guess at this point I’m free to say: At that point in the game with plurality lynch votes are 100% meaningless. However, not everyone is entirely aware of this fact, so there was no reason not to throw my vote behind Yellow, to maybe pressure Sinny into cracking a little. It was all upside. Sinny came under quite a good amount of pressure early on, she survived it pretty well -> I get a small green read. If she wasn’t scripting I’d get a slightly greener read. Oh well.
Even if you pressure voted sinny (which is possible), why on earth are you going to do it, if you don't do anything with it? Starting conversation is important for town yes, but anyone really can do it. Not only that, but it really isn't helping you read anyone (as far as i have read) because you are asking others for ideas
You can tbh achieve the same idea and atmosphere (which I will admit, is cubical for us, or any town winning a game) by actually pushing your ideas, and attack people. Sure, people might lurk, but people will also lurk, if they do not actually need to be involved in the game.
As I said, it was all upside. I’m done with the conversation starter role now. The only person who needs any hassling now is Blarraun, everyone else is par for course (though PMJ could certainly do more).
I ask questions instead of accusing. At that point in time I didn’t have much to go on, so gathering background info was the bottleneck. Now I’ve got info I can work into some hypotheses, so I’m going to ask questions that are a little more pointed (not just conversations starters).
I’m deliberately not attacking people because I’m trying to exercise some control over my own playstyle. It’s scripted. I decided before the game I wasn’t going to be the thug regardless of alignment. My previous two games I’ve been an utter thug, and people have very strong ideas about who/what I am that I don’t feel are useful to me. I don’t want other people’s preconceptions dictating what I can and cannot do. I’ll also note that my thuggish demeanour has not gone down well on this forum, having imploded town twice. I’m not throwing this game, I’m just trying a different tact. I will contribute, I can’t help myself, I’m just not going to be overly aggressive about it.
If you want a second opinion on whether or not I tinker with my meta, Gopher can tell you that I definitely think about this kind of thing in general, and that I was definitely going to attempt changes in this game. You can also look at last game, where I tried (and failed) to enact a ‘lurkastown’ script.
I am going to ask you Hablo, when did you think about this?
I’ve always got some idea of what to try next game. If you want evidence, again look at my attempted lurker gambit last game. I’m even hesitant to explain myself at first because I wanted to keep that gambit for another game. Alas… I had to explain it and still didn’t survive Goph’s wrath.
kinda out of no where. Kinda feels disconnected with the rest of the post.
It was out of sync with the rest of my post, because there was a different intention behind it. “Defensive” is a powerful word. For example, if I were to call someone defensive, it would be less an observation, and more a heavy pressure move to make them defensive. It’s like that thing kids do where they accuse someone of something scandalous, then say “you’re getting angry, so it must be true”. It’s an attempt to control the narrative, you can’t respond without in turn proving yourself defensive. So that thing where you’re coming at me for asking questions instead of making accusations, this was an accusation phrased as a question. I took no issue with his aggression on me, though yes, it was surprising, because to my knowledge Sete hadn’t played before. It turns out they’re scripting too. I did take issue with the word ‘defensive’, because that made their aggression feel forced. Their reply to it was also really strange. It’s as if they have a different definition of ‘defensive’. Which is either genuine or a blatant scum over-reaction. Which brings me to:
@Sete
What’s your first language?
Is this a joke?
I am really bad at telling if things are jokes in fourm.
Yeah kind of. It’s just the way I prod. PMJ doesn’t understand how I operate, he plays in such a way that I can’t take the bonnet off his playstyle either. I was just for interaction. It was a blatant contradiction of something I’d just said (that I wasn’t the sort to cozy up). I didn’t have high hopes for this particular ad lib since it was so obvious, but people around here tend to miss what I’m saying, or misattribute it, if I’m not deliberately a little heavy handed. It also served to bring attention to the thing PMJ did:
He warned people not to sidle up to him. Why would he warn people? It makes no sense. If I have an idea of what makes someone scummy, I don’t warn people not to do it. I wait for them to do it and then I point the finger at them. That’s how you catch scum. His warning betrays the mindset of someone who’s trying to look town, but not trying to catch scum. This is a pretty clear read, and I wanted to see if anyone else picked up on it if I brought attention to the area, as that would give me a read on them. Gotta nurse advantage yo. But that didn’t happen, oh well.
What do you think is there to question your town read on QT from him so far?
For that matter, since QT has experience, what in particular makes you think he is strongly town? I have him on a semi-town lean myself, just from what I read from him, but what exactly, in this game, = town.
I mean, waffleing about weather or not he is actually town, or is good scum is (and I speak from 11 town games of experience of waffling and tinfoil) completely useless! Just clogs your posts, and is something I myself is trying to remove from my play (being lynched a few times d1 or close too is enough for me to learn). It also can screw you over and idk, cost you a the game in lylo by lynching the most obv town ever.
Firstly, my read was not super strong. My bringing it up was an attempt to build on the read from his response, as well as, you know, have people ask questions etc.
My issues with reading him green are that he’s likely better than me, and thus capable of misleading me. He’s also seen my play, and my QTs, and conferred with me via PM, so he’s got an advantage over me in knowing how I think. He also knows that convincing me can kind of be a priority, since I often have a strong impact on who is and isn’t lynched day one.
It’s also that he sells himself short at every turn.
This is a C&P from something I didn’t end up posting:
He habitually lowers people’s expectations of him, and this makes me curious. For example, he posted a game where he loses, that was early in his career. That tells me he’s trying to come across as unthreatening. He also goes on about how bad at making cases he is, when in that very game he linked, he was actually very articulate. By the same token, he demands to not be held accountable for anything he says that seems irrational, but referring to the game he linked, he actually made a lot of sense
Which means that he’s managing our impressions of him. Finally, it’s not so much his perceptions I disagree with, but the things he chooses to communicate aren’t always useful to my mind:
@Yellow, how serious is your vote on Sinny right now?
Her vote was literally her first post, to QT it’s pretty obviously a pressure vote. Why ask? Answering would weaken the pressure. Maybe he wants to know if Yellow is the type of person that will ease off the pressure in order to be transparent? I dunno
We are still on the first page. Unless someone slips really badly, its prolly going to be one of the least informative pages in this game.
Why say this? The point of the RVS is to get out of the RVS. How does broadcasting its futility help us get out of RVS?
This works if people play rationally, but some people do not. I actually am someone who makes a lot of contradictions in my play as Town. I can very well point you to many games where I have either fallen under heavy suspicion or outright lynched because people thought I was making contradictions.. This game is more about reading the player and what characteristics they have and how that makes them look Town or Scum rather than lining up everything so logically. In a perfect world where people never contradict themselves, you would be absolutely right, but I know based on my own way of playing that people do not always act logically.
Often times for me, it is more so that I just have difficulty explaining how I got from point A to point B in a way that makes sense to people. I have MY reasoning for it that I can't always articulate and this is when people find me suspicious and wrongly so. Granted, I am getting better at this, but it is still something that I struggle with in both my Town and Scum game.
I’ve touched on this before, but this is a big push from him to not be taken seriously. Giving himself wriggle room because he’s acting under the assumption he’ll slip. Like I said, he can be quite articulate when he wants to be. I don’t believe him when he says he can’t explain his reasoning.
Despite all this, for reasons you admirably didn't force out of me and I won't go into, I read him as green. Approaching a moderate green read. Yes there's ambiguity, but overall his direction is townish.
I'm going by the clock. I have times at which I'm allowed to post, and times where I'm not.
Last night I took a 6 hour break, and then allowed myself to post between 10pm and midnight. I was pretty close to breaking my rule twice past midnight, but didn't.
So I'm basically doing:
In the morning I get to catch up on thread and respond to everything until I no longer have anything I need to be doing (includes posting cases etc.). Then I leave it until 10pm.
And yeah, I expect you to suspect me. Can I ask you, what do you think a town hado would look like if they made a rule for themselves that they were going to try and keep their aggression down? I understand that I set your intuition off because I'm acting non-aggressive. That's expected. But you knew I was going to script some, so I expect you to at least indulge the notion.
The god thing was fluff. It just felt funny to me because usually those philosophical proofs don't come up IRL. But there I was with all the pieces. There was no intentionality behind it beyond playing with words. I guess you can read into that what you will, I can't defend it.
When you mentioned later that your spreadsheet would have made the right associations once I flipped I figured maybe I could use one.
Am I wrong in thinking this is complete bullshit? You already used a spreadsheet. I swear. You've mentioned it in previous games. Well... Someone did. It wasn't RB, DP does but it wasn't DP. I'm almost certain it was you. Was it you?
Right now? Well, I'm not allowing myself to tunnel, but the people who have my attention who I actually think ring red are:
- PMJ
- Gopher
- Blarraun
With Gopher he's lurked too much, and him coming in and aggressing on me when he knew I was scripting makes me paranoid. I knew he'd be posting less, but you can post less without becoming useless. He has since made a big dump which is good, but I dunno. I don't understand why he's being this absent. If his goal is not to dominate, all he had to do was keep pace with an active player that also wasn't dominating. EZ. Instead, he's used our talk earlier to foreshadow a near complete absence. He's got the justification to lurk, and he's using it to the full letter of the law. Given how much difficulty I'm having keeping my posting down, it doesn't make sense to me that he'd pointlessly exceed expectations. As town he should want to interact and contribute, without exhausting everyone. That's not hard. By posting in dumps he's making it difficult for people to interact with him.
That said, Gopher is someone I truly don't want to start shit with. And I know he knows my first genuine reaction to his aggression is OMGUSing, since usually my reads of him are tied to his actions towards me (something that really fucked us both last game). So I'm saying it, but it's not backed by action and I don't want this to indicate my alignment.
I've already detailed my thoughts on Blarraun. His friending me was a little suspicious, and he didn't turn on me as hard as I'd expect a premeditated trapping Blarraun would. That makes him either an indecisive town, or scum. He's also got a general lack of activity, and set himself up to be held unaccountable by choosing a tentative approach. I want to add the caveat that I do see a town Blarraun acting this way, but when I go making excuses for newbies it never ends well.
With PMJ, he's come in and done a bunch of not much. He's flipflopped, and he's tried to act like town without hunting for scum. Again, there's a caveat because he didn't do much in other games either, but I expect him to learn. PMJ is both my highest read and my highest priority one, since he's not gopher, and he's not newbly.
Who do you think is most townish right now? Why, exactly?
OK, so I was going to respond with quotes, but frankly you guys make such long posts it would take forever to reply to everything I want to, so I'll just make a few comments that more fits my style of play if that's alright.
Pmj is a Null read at this point. He's really standoffish and I don't know what to make of him being non-committal on Sinny and then immediately saying "I'll put my balls on the line and say she is Tow" Kinda irked me more so than anything.
I haven't been overly impressed with Gopher, but I'm inclined to agree that at this point I am liking a Hado lynch. He seems calm and collected as always, but I don't know that I can trust him just yet. I did kinda get the feeling like he was trying to look like he was doing more than he really was, but I'll have to watch and see what he does from here on out.
I am iffy on Yellows unvote of Sinny. It seems like I can't tell if Yellow is actually reevaluating the read on Sinny or just unvoting them because it was planned or some shit. That said, I think I like Yellow for town about now and there are really only like one or two things than bugged me from her posts.
Hado just had a bad reaction to pressure. I didn't see him really even acknowledge anything people thought he was Suspicious for except to say "I am just playing a scripted game this time" which, honestly I don't think I like. Its fine if you want to change things up a bit, but when people are saying you are Sus, you really need to address those concerns.
Sete is kinda doing the same kind of argument as Hado saying they are playing the way the would regardless of alignment, but the difference is that Sete hasn't really fallen under suspicion while saying this and I have to say that is a more Townie thing to do considering context. I also like the way they are addressing things head on and not really pussyfooting around so much.
Sinny remains to be the Bull in the china hut, and I like that in her because I'm inclined to think she is Town for it. Its such a stark contrast to last game I don't think I can justify any sort of Scum read on her at this time. Her contribution has been a bit lacking but for now its enough to say she is likely Town.
Spacelog is a Vet so I expect more from him than others. His content has been pretty good and he makes some really good points against Hado, but without a vote on Hado this concerns me greatly. He spent the better portion of his content on Hado, but doesn't vote him. I can see a world where he is just distancing from Hado here and if he isn't I'm not sure what he is doing.
Blarraun has hardly don enough to get his feet wet in this game. No real stances taken iirc and just pretty much has talked about the game rather than playing the game so much. I'm not really sure how to read him at this point so I'm going to say Null for now.
Yellow, well unfortunately I don’t really have questions for you since it’s mainly intuition based on my Sinny read. However it’s the type of intuition that picked up Sinny day one last game yet I couldn’t act on it. Hmm maybe if you could just... keep posting?
@Hado - That was unmitigated torture. I was half way through that spoiler before I realized it was just a weirdly copied copy of my previous post.
@ Everyone - This is my first/second game of mafia. I'm playing another game that started about a week ago, but is a painfully slower pace. I'm playing almost the opposite there, and this way here. I want to figure out what's most effective for producing a town-win. Games #1 and #2 on INTPf were mafia-wins.
I really want a Day 1 scum lynch, but a productive Day 1 is a reasonable consolation.
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I think the only way for town to win is to focus on the win-condition. If I don't get lynched today, I'm a good candidate for a night kill. That's gonna suck, but I figure that leading by example is more effective than asking others to risk their necks. (in other words, I'm being obnoxious and I know it. It'll all be over soon, and you'll be returned to your regularly scheduled Yellow)
Back to the action.
Gopher's post was long and full of intuitive musings. He put himself out there on the record, and that's important. Good job, Gopher. However, his feelings about Hado based on his other feelings about Hado and his private conversations with Hado are circumstantial. What's most glaring, is all that talk and no vote.
And Hado, is there any truth to what Gopher implied? What I got was that he's suggesting that you flipped script (like, literally) the moment you got your role assignment.
@PMJPMJ , Quicktwist, and Blarraun - I want to get a better read on you. Please do me/us a favor, and say more.
And yeah, I expect you to suspect me. Can I ask you, what do you think a town hado would look like if they made a rule for themselves that they were going to try and keep their aggression down? I understand that I set your intuition off because I'm acting non-aggressive. That's expected. But you knew I was going to script some, so I expect you to at least indulge the notion.
The god thing was fluff. It just felt funny to me because usually those philosophical proofs don't come up IRL. But there I was with all the pieces. There was no intentionality behind it beyond playing with words. I guess you can read into that what you will, I can't defend it.
Am I wrong in thinking this is complete bullshit? You already used a spreadsheet. I swear. You've mentioned it in previous games. Well... Someone did. It wasn't RB, DP does but it wasn't DP. I'm almost certain it was you. Was it you?
Nonono, if this is talking to me it isn't your non aggression. You've mentioned that pre-game. What you also mentioned pre-game was your lurking. I only skim read your other post because it was massive and I need to go back in the thread anyway but it was as Yellow says, from my perspective you seem to have flipped the script. I do agree you were trying to change meta, that's literally my problem you haven't. At least not compared to what I would have expected. You told me you would be cutting down yet you are the biggest poster by a fair margin. I mean it's probably because for the first time I don't have all day to post and read but you're exhausting me already.
Just like you're suspicious of me for not posting as much as you think I should with my lurker script you're posting too much. The only difference is I know my reasons I don't know yours.
Naw I've never used a spreadsheet. Note taking sure but not a spreadsheet. Generally I don't need to either since I'm not exactly a logical player, at least not in the Ti sense anyway.
Also I just spent two hours trying to get home from physio. I need to find the shout thread real quick.
Yeah I'm aware I'm lurking a lot, this first day period is going to be busy for me and I really want to save the energy. I'll try to avoid it if possible but I may need to see a doctor when the lynch goes down. Although again not alignment indicative from waking up and making that post til now I've been out. I'm not really going to bother responding past that because I also don't want a flame war day one. (Ties into my day one strat which I'll talk about soon-ish)
Quite a bit has gone on. I’m perhaps going to have to go back on what I said about successive posts. No biggie.
To be clear, I’m commenting on things that have happened as of 7:30am (GMT). This isn’t exhaustive; I need time to think and formulate ideas.
Treat this as a preliminary defence / analysis, which will be refined later on, because right now this is a mess. Information overload (it doesn’t take much ). So, from the cuff:
Firstly, why would I take it the wrong way? Stop pussy-footing around me. Secondly, what the hell is TR? I’m going to assume, given the context, it means ‘Town Read’. God I’m smart ()
Reasoning
I’m going to struggle here, because I am largely going off my gut. Tell me if I have this all wrong:
Whilst it isn’t unfeasible to suggest that an experienced player could pull off playing aggressive Mafia, I do think it’s a very risky tactic. You’re putting yourself squarely in the limelight (negatively; lots of attention) which, in my limited experience, is a position most Mafia want to avoid. I have previously noted that Mafia players tend towards being lurkers, or loud but overtly pro-town (to a degree which makes you roll your eyes and think “Really? Fucking really?” This certainly applies to players of lesser experience, and is why I assumed Hado was Mafia during the last game. Such a stunningly overbearing love of the town (falling over himself to post statistics and timers, etc. - strangely absent here, no?) has previously been a tell - and I’ve caught people out on that basis alone.
Admittedly, it isn’t always a strong tell tell, of course - especially in settings like this with a higher average IQ and more experienced participants. To that end, you may just be a really good Mafia. I have no way of knowing, but my gut says you’re green.
Problems with Reasoning
It’s all hot air, essentially. Firstly, it’s based on past experience and my own experience / gut… and I’ll be the first to admit that past precedent isn’t always a reliable predictor of future outcomes - and my gut completely fucked up during the first few days of the previous game.
Secondly, and this is way out there, you could be mirroring me to gain favour - but this is highly unlikely; I’m inexperienced and (as you can tell) a bit ham-fisted in my efforts. This angle is only worth considering if for some bizarre reason, you wanted to befriend a dumb mouthpiece. In which case ‘fair play’
I don’t know, Spacetwig. You tell me why my reasoning is shit. I’m all eyes.
Also, please throw a vote up soon. I’m uncomfortable that you have said so much, yet drawn little in the way of conclusion.
“SpaceTwig” said:
@PMJ, Any reads other then Sinny/Hablo, couldn't understand it
This was the point at which Sete came on to my radar. I don’t think this has been picked up on yet, and I think it warrants looking at in more detail.
With very little in the way of explanation, he/she abruptly switches a vote from Hado to Yellow - just as Yellow’s vote pushes Hado to the front of the queue for lynching.
Was Sete’s original vote for Hado a ‘lolvote’ to create a sense of disharmony between the two? I began to investigate how this progressed:
Hado said:
@Seteleechete, Blar, Yellow (though apparently Yellow needs no pep talk)
I'm going to oppose any lynch on you day one unless you're really blatantly scummy or lurk. The intention behind this amnesty is to give you room to breathe while you find your feet. So jump in, make a mess, try to be right even though you'll probably be wrong. The experienced players here are observing you and they know you're new. So long as you're having a go they should leave you alone too.
That’s some bullshit right there, and did set some alarm bells ringing… but, I tunnelled him last game and thought “Hmmm… best not” - but it bugged me. Oh did it fucking bug me.
Next:
Hado said:
Seteleechete, what do you think about the fact that all I've done is sit here directing traffic, without really pointing any fingers?
Fairly innocuous in and of itself. I can let that slip; asking questions is obviously expected. Still, it does seem rather ‘soft’ somehow.
I went in search Seteleechete’s response expecting it to be somehow cosy / friendly, but instead it was one of suspicion and even aggression. This satisfied me… but then why did he/she bother to make a fairly compelling case for Hado, subsequently vote for Hado, then switch his Vote to Yellow for making an allegedly panicked response?
I’m confused. I want to read Seteleechete as green; he/she certainly has some green markers (in my mind) but that vote switch… hmm. I need to see more.
@Seteleechete: could you please elucidate me as to why you feel Yellow is more scummy than Hado at the moment? Short and sweet will do.
A note I couldn’t find a decent place for:
You have to look at basic human psychology. Some people are quite weak in their ability to employ subterfuge to con others. In RL it’s warranted and telling of a decent character, but this ‘weakness’ seems to percolate*though to fantasy settings such as this. It’s hilarious to watch people squirm. Jenny was the perfect example last game; she’s obviously a lovely person, and her discomfort at being deceitful was palpable.
^ I am seeing that same squirming in Hado at the moment. Yellow perhaps, but to a much lesser extent at the moment.
… and to respond to some flak levelled at me:
“Hado” said:
Yeah kind of. It’s just the way I prod. PMJ doesn’t understand how I operate, he plays in such a way that I can’t take the bonnet off his playstyle either. I was just for interaction. It was a blatant contradiction of something I’d just said (that I wasn’t the sort to cozy up). I didn’t have high hopes for this particular ad lib since it was so obvious, but people around here tend to miss what I’m saying, or misattribute it, if I’m not deliberately a little heavy handed. It also served to bring attention to the thing PMJ did:
He warned people not to sidle up to him. Why would he warn people? It makes no sense. If I have an idea of what makes someone scummy, I don’t warn people not to do it. I wait for them to do it and then I point the finger at them. That’s how you catch scum. His warning betrays the mindset of someone who’s trying to look town, but not trying to catch scum. This is a pretty clear read, and I wanted to see if anyone else picked up on it if I brought attention to the area, as that would give me a read on them. Gotta nurse advantage yo. But that didn’t happen, oh well.
Your point here (re: my warning) is irrelevant; I warned people of the same thing during the last game. I noted a couple of times that I refused to trust anybody, and would rain down hellfire on anyone trying to cozy up to me… and which role was I playing in that game, pray tell? Oh yes - town. Moot point, bucko. Your “pretty clear read” isn’t worth shit; stop clutching at straws and come at me with something half decent.
I’m afraid to say it because of the last game, but screw it: once again, you reek of shit… and PLEASE stop with all this ‘scripting’ nonsense. It tells us nothing, save for the fact that you took the pussy option. Start shooting from the hip, or fuck off.
Hmm, maybe it was a mistake but I am simply too paranoid to take such things on face value and assume everyone else is, so assuming people will question it any-way I may as well share my view of the topic(My levels of paranoia playing this really are through the roof).
It does make sense in this case, redundant activity though. Everyone already assumes it can be false so little use pointing it out to them while you return to state 0 with Yellow because you didn't pretend to tolerate her read.
Spoiler for whining. I had a 5-day weekend. It ended Monday morning (about 12 hours after the game started). I'm catching up, I have an employee out and 2 clients relapsed while I was gone. So I've been trying to keep up without making excuses for my absence, but I think it's affected my energy level. I really wanted to play without filters. I spend my whole life self-censored. This game seemed like the perfect place to not be so composed. Unfortunately, I am especially restrained when busy/stressed (which I realize is opposite the way real humans operate). It sucks. Anyway, I will try to keep up the abrasive guns-blazing fun, but I might regress to being a more reasonable person from time to time.
So the real life situation is affecting your participation in the game. This line of defense sucks because I know you just enough to suspect it may be true and you know me well enough to assume it's going to convince me. Your whole life censored...why do you even bring this up, are you trying to generate an empathetic response? It would work in real life but I can't accept it for this game. That bit about your whole life seems disingenuous, it's as if you stay in the game only barely to be a nice person, you knew what responsibilities were coming irl, why didn't you leave before the game started?
Or is it just the way you use placeholders? Without giving me real answers you've just used your life issues as an excuse, lazy or especially convenient I say.
Of course you can remain composed when you're putting on the pressure, that's not what I meant. So far you're letting things go way too easily, it's more participation-faking than trying to give your best from the limited time you have, or it could be that you're just so inexperienced that you don't move much and feeling busy lets you excuse this part.
Sinny: I'm still annoyed by the laziness of her approach. Town's job isn't to convince people they are town, their job is to play for a town win. In the last game, I saw so much time spent trying to claim town (by everyone, not her in particular), and I think that's a major reason why mafia won. So when she started out with "I'm town", it was irksome. My thought was "this is scummy, but even if she is town, we're not going to win with this kind of dead weight".
Blarraun: It's occurred to me that he could be mafia. He's posting just enough to be considered active, but the posts have a narrow feel, He's focusing on small segments of the thread, and leaving wide swaths unaddressed. I have a gut feeling like he's avoiding something. I want to come back to that too when I have more time.
Much of what's playing out doesn't inform me very conclusively either way. I need to keep asking more questions about the whole to enrich my picture. I get that my low activity and focus may be strange but it seems that's how I roll so far and I want to improve it.
Was I pressed at some point? Did I miss it? What was the press about? Again, if you asked a question and you feel like I skipped it, please let me know.
Are you posturing concern? You can use search thread-> advanced search and type your username in the right box if you want to see every instance of people mentioning you.
Asking people to question you again seems redundant, or evasive.
Have a question tho. PMJ is purposefully playing different from last game, and it (IMO) shows to me. So, how did you come to the outcome that he is playing standard/erratic?
I am also going to ask you, since sete kiba responded, would what she (he? they?) did be more mafia or town In your eyes?
PMJ is a tough read for me, that's what I mean by standard, is that he's leaving me clueless so far and that's what I find unacceptable, combined with his low activity.
Sete managed to provide the only reasonable response that would work in that situation. My question had the caveat that would alert me if that reply was even slightly different. I'm actually reliant on his paranoia to be on a lookout, he appears fairly in the green to me.
For what it's worth, while I would have held off hanging anyone that required the protection day one, if they weren't suitably struggling, this would have put them in deep shit day two. The reads I got from this are that Sete and Yellow are scripting (but by now you've both revealed, so only my QT stands testament), and Blarraun is a bit scummy. I'm still tentative about hammering blar, because he can be sensitive at times, and I have a lot of difficulty understanding how he thinks even outside of mafia. If Blar had have embraced my protection after soft-friending me (talking how helpful I've been), I would have been deeply suspicious. I expected him to turn on me if town, and he did, but only took a soft position. So yeah, mild red read.
What's with this crap? What I don't like about your position here is how you've turned into the camp leader who's beyond suspicion just because of the way you're authoritative about phrasing things.
You're not hammering me because that would offend me? That's the weakest bullshit I've heard from you so far. More than anything it means that you have nothing solid on me and you're posturing being serious about me.
I'm quite certain that you won't find situation where I'm overly sensitive, save for Urakro's case which I had already explained my reasoning for elsewhere.
Tell me, what do you have on me really? What you've said to me so far is some inconclusive bullshit that's only adding to your false authority and faking effort.
Just so you know, I'm cool about this. I'm adding more meat and hostility between us to invite you to do the same and show you I'm fine and ready. Don't hold back man and ask me for real or admit it's your stupid test. I'm acting predictably and I will adjust to expectation if that's going to help everyone with understanding my position.
And Sinny and Seattle count as one vote, WHAT KIND OF DEMOCRACY IS THIS!
Sinny, are you exaggerating your personality. Calling Spacelog a pussyhole for instance. Maybe I’ve spent too much time around you as mafia I don’t know what you’re actually like anymore. :P However I understand why you would do it as town or mafia for cheap town cred I’m just wondering if you would admit to doing that if it was the case.
Blaruran is being a derp with the flavour text. He also said he wants to deny mafia knowing his style despite him posting his style last game. At this point it just looks like a good excuse to not say anything, it’s only a 48 hour long day by the time I sleep if I didn’t set an alarm it would be over. He also is the person with the weakest scum read on hado which is interesting. Actually that whole situation is interesting. He talks a lot of fluff with flavour text if you take it out that post evaporates size wise. Also has 5 null reads and two soft scum reads and one strong town read. I really don’t like this kind of play. It’s lurking in plain sight combined with his lack of ability to post if not for hado it makes me think of a mafia who has nothing to do. Compare him to last game where he came out swinging for the little time he was in it.
Seattle openly admitted to plotting to seem town. If I didn’t know any better I would assume he was time aslyums smurf. Shifts the focus off him but goes on spacelog in a natural way I like that?
(this has changed since I thought it but I’ll say it anyway)
The only person who doesn’t think hado is scummy is QT with a null read. Also to note the only person Hado has (or had) a strong (or not strong now...) town read on is... you guessed it QT.
Actually I’ll just go to note form it’s fairly straight worded.
Hado comes back in and defaults on his promise. Pretty wifom. Either he realised that it was a stupid promise or he realised that people would pressure him over it. Hado calls an entire argument on him as fabricated. Now sure I also agree in part its pressuring things that don't entirely matter.
Okay, at this point Hado is deep in red, most scum read person by far and has nobody on his side. However... he does have one person ignoring him. Enter QT. The only person who is null on hado. Hado has his only strong town read as QT as well. (at least compared to his 0.5 on Seattle)
This has all the makings of a scum team and I want it timestamped. 18:38 whatever time that is in real time. HOWEVER. Due to my day one plans I might not vote for either of them.
Why you ask? Because!
Last game the third highest scum read was Sinny my top two was Happy and Helevte. That's the same in pretty much every game I've played. My top two reads day one have never been scum and my third has been surprisingly accurate while I like to think I'm smart and have gotten better than that... yeah lets go with statistics. So I'll probably end up voting Yellow, maybe Blar because Hado was also kinda funny with him. Both of them are in the nebulous realm. Actually now I think about it Blar is far more factually scummy than Yellow but Yellow is more intuition scummy. Either way I’ll put my vote on blar because it is plurality which I would have been abusing more if not wanting to wait to make the point about my third most scummy person. I was going to encourage everyone to just vote their third most scummy read however I realised that this metric may only apply to me.
Vote Blarararan
After QT’s post. Oh great QT just changed his mind. I guess it would have been kind of obvious.
Space log. Did you seriously not pick up that as a joke? This question is important.
Also just as I write this Blar actually posts some meat. He does go after the "safe"
people to attack though. Will have to read it properly.
EBWOP remove the first Vote and read it like that. Makes far more sense that way.
Also my physio told me not to use the computer for more than half an hour and move around a lot more. This was about the time I wanted to start ramping up my posting so if inactivity does become a problem I'll ask RB for a replacement. If you could line one up just in case that would be great.
Color bit: Why do you feel the need to find something to attack me with? I mean, sure, if I do something scummy in your eyes, you should by all means come after me, but attacking isn't the only way to gather info. Asking questions (like I do) is great for finding info out, or trying to understand their mindset.
It's easier to find contradictions and faults than it is to find reaffirming evidence, so that's what I look for first. I do also look for reaffirming evidence as well though(as I mentioned). Maybe I should try using other techniques, but deduction of faults/inconsistencies has always been my strongest point in anything I do. Actually Hado, wasn't wrong on that point, many of my questions/observations are veiled attacks.
@Sinny - Don't just say "Yellow is scummy". Tell me why. GAWD I sound like a writing teacher now, don't I? Tear me a new one, if you must. Make a rock-solid case against me and start the bandwagon that will get me lynched, if you think that's what's best for town.
I found that post far to non-commital and lackluster to make me lean-town from it. If anything it even further strengthens my suspicions of a mafia-lean.
Was I pressed at some point? Did I miss it? What was the press about? Again, if you asked a question and you feel like I skipped it, please let me know.
That's a pretty panicked response Yellow. You keep acting like that, it makes me suspicious.
Can't say it was particularly awkward, manipulative and placating but such a response would nevertheless be expected from someone under suspicion, particularly one that seems to hide behind some weird pacifistic agenda. You, on the other hand, seem extremely anxious and shifty, anything to say?
You keep referencing these official "ways" that the game is supposed to be played on, trying to nearly act them out. As if you are a newbie thrust right into a scum role needing the reassurance of something "official" to stay calm.
My view hasn't really changed since then, at first you were an anxious attacker and after suspicious turned on you, you quickly turned defensive and avoidant rather than facing things head on like you seemed to want to do at first. The only thing I lack is knowing if it's due to beginner's nerves or being scum. She has gone back to the way she seemed to have intended to play again but I will be holding this against her.
@PMjPMJ(also see above)
I don't actually find Yellow more suspicious. I just decided that the vote would be better used as a tool to pressure Yellow than Hado. Yellow seemed more susceptible to such attacks. I also wanted to see what response Hado would give to the vote switch(which he never did, I would have seen it as a town tell if he questioned the switch as well though). Also, Hado was under enough pressure that the additional vote wouldn't contribute much in that regard.
It was a fishing vote(I don't take the importance of early votes overly seriously in a plurality vote, since it doesn't seem to be). I am not particularly surprised you picked up on the weirdness of the switch, Spacelog did as well earlier but Hado hadn't had the chance to answer yet so I refrained from commenting.
Actually, it still seems more useful on Yellow since Sinny and potentially Gopher seem to suspect her, but I will probably switch back to Hado before the end.
I still have my doubts about if he is playing this way naturally or not(and I want some more feedback on that before my vote is finalized), at the end of the day he might just be the best lead.
Why would you ask that question? I am not ever sure if you are referring to my spoken language or the way I define things.
Honestly, he seems to be in a panic mode, he wrote so much this time that's mostly irrelevant. I don't know if a town Hado would have done that. He seems... lost, now that his plan didn't work out.
I am getting more suspicious about Blarraun though, his semi lurking style is really suspicious in an awkward way I would see from a Scum, and is in line with how I see an INTP(of the type Blarraun is) scum would like to act as first time player. And then he goes on some sort of rage train that drops that suspicion down a notch. But it's uncharacteristic, he might have just seen the way the wind was and turning and done the necessary counterplay.
Whereas Gopher, so far seems more genuine in his absence going to his unreserved way of communicating when he did do so. Has the subtle feel of guilt from not being able to post enough(Rushed and stressy when no major suspicion had fallen on Gopher yet).
I also continuously dislike QTs continued non comital, vague reads and following the train attitude.
Top suspects atm: Hado, QT
Followed by: Yellow, Blarraun
Tiny town-lean: PMJ(I liked his last post, but I don't trust my intuitive reads on him).
Sinny(Actually I have more of a neutral read on Sinny atm, I need more before I decide what to think of her.)
Last atm: Gopher
Totally unknown: Spacelog.
. I noted a couple of times that I refused to trust anybody, and would rain down hellfire on anyone trying to cozy up to me… and which role was I playing in that game, pray tell?
I know the feeling, people keep cozying up to me and I just find it suspicious. The top 4(Mostly incidentally) on my list of suspects are people that have tried that. Idk what Blarraun is thinking on that point, how could you expect me to be paranoid and not question such actions. Honestly, if anything mafia will strive to appear reasonable by responding so positively to my responses. It's the safe bet.
Blaruran is being a derp with the flavour text. He also said he wants to deny mafia knowing his style despite him posting his style last game. At this point it just looks like a good excuse to not say anything, it’s only a 48 hour long day by the time I sleep if I didn’t set an alarm it would be over. He also is the person with the weakest scum read on hado which is interesting. Actually that whole situation is interesting. He talks a lot of fluff with flavour text if you take it out that post evaporates size wise. Also has 5 null reads and two soft scum reads and one strong town read. I really don’t like this kind of play. It’s lurking in plain sight combined with his lack of ability to post if not for hado it makes me think of a mafia who has nothing to do. Compare him to last game where he came out swinging for the little time he was in it.
First of all, how can you tell anything about my style last game, when I was conflicted with Urakro from the beginning, that's not a great example to begin with. Secondly, why not allow the possibility that I can have more than one engagement style?
It's not an excuse to stay quiet, it was just me musing about the advantage I had coming into this game compared to the regular players. In fact my skirmish with Urakro only helps conceal my meta, maybe to my detriment since you're the kind of player to rely on past game experience and non-game related stuff to make your reads.
Speaking of fluff, my stuff can't compare to the way you water down your intuition by referencing notes, random interjections, hunches or conversations with Hado.
Who is a risky target to focus on? That's a "quote" silly "end of quote" thing to say. Oh maybe you're thinking that since you've raised your suspicion about Hado it was safe for me to target him, you're giving yourself far too much credit but it makes sense from your perspective.
I’m going to struggle here, because I am largely going off my gut. Tell me if I have this all wrong:
Whilst it isn’t unfeasible to suggest that an experienced player could pull off playing aggressive Mafia, I do think it’s a very risky tactic. You’re putting yourself squarely in the limelight (negatively; lots of attention) which, in my limited experience, is a position most Mafia want to avoid. I have previously noted that Mafia players tend towards being lurkers, or loud but overtly pro-town (to a degree which makes you roll your eyes and think “Really? Fucking really?” This certainly applies to players of lesser experience, and is why I assumed Hado was Mafia during the last game. Such a stunningly overbearing love of the town (falling over himself to post statistics and timers, etc. - strangely absent here, no?) has previously been a tell - and I’ve caught people out on that basis alone.
Admittedly, it isn’t always a strong tell tell, of course - especially in settings like this with a higher average IQ and more experienced participants. To that end, you may just be a really good Mafia. I have no way of knowing, but my gut says you’re green.
Your gut feels totally throw me off. I don't agree with you here. Shapelog is very guarded so far and he seems like an ideal candidate for mafia. The fact that he made a few pokes and asked a few questions around doesn't put him in the crossfire at all. He hasn't gone to harass any player yet and it's as if he's feeling satisfied and waiting for the later stage of the game, or he's purposefully contributing just so he isn't accused and what better way to do it than asking and directing attention.
Admittedly, it isn’t always a strong tell tell, of course - especially in settings like this with a higher average IQ and more experienced participants. To that end, you may just be a really good Mafia. I have no way of knowing, but my gut says you’re green.
Really? Why would you assume there's higher average IQ here or that it changes anything? Does it have to do with your belief that intuitives and especially INTJ types are superior over sensors? That's a severe typological bias. If that's how the rest of your gut guessing looks like then I don't want to see it.
Slight town reads:
Gopher, too all-inish to my taste. If I'm going to turn against Gopher it's going to be later once I decipher his demagoguery as damaging for the town. His criticism of my play I take as a slight town read, since he's very open about what his issues are.
QT and Shapelog, concise and on point. Maybe that's the way this game should be played.
Sete, explained himself and does seem to be constructively helpful.
Sinny, I don't see a consistent agenda behind her. She's acting in a way I'd expect her to, but my expectations will change later, so far so good.
Suspects:
Speaking of Hado, he hasn't yet replied to my questions here and he continually raised my suspicion. He had enough time to do so but he chose to ignore them. All he did was make a generic commentary on me without addressing me personally, that's scummy in my eyes.
Vote Hado
Besides him Yellow appears deceitful so far, however I am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt that she's busy right now. I don't think she would play for an incredibly easy win as mafia by pretending to be disoriented and short on time. I actually think she'd be giving her best unless she couldn't physically do it.
Null reads: PMJ, that man is shady as pitch, when I read his explanations they make little sense to me, he seems to rely on his crazy intuition and makes random moves.
Can people explain to me why they're suspicious of QT? I don't understand it. Last time this happened it was last game and people suspected Sinny while I did not. It turned out Sinny was scum.
ATM I've picked up on some things that frustrate me about QT, but nothing that would indicate he's genuinely scummy. I've also got a string of small reads that make me think he's green. Can anyone tell me why he's scummy?
@Sete
Your switch to Yellow was very fast. I didn't think it was scummy. It felt like scripting to me. Your case against me felt rushed (as did Yellows, but I'm starting to think that I just assume all cases against me are weak :/). Your attack on Yellow felt weak. To me that meant you were deliberately attacking lots of different people in an attempt to accelerate the game state, which is pro-town, but probably what you were intending on doing regardless of what you rolled. It's still surprising to see a first-timer take this much initiative, but apparently you've read other games etc. and had time to think it through.
The reason I wanted to know about your language was because your explanation of your use of the term 'defensive' seemed off. You were trying to define it oddly, while ignoring the political elements of the term. I still don't know why you chose to define it the way you did (defensive being things that make other people think you town, as opposed to making other people look like scum). But honestly I don't mind at this point. Your aggression is making things happen, and despite your position towards me, you seem to be doing good things.
@Yellow & Gopher
The conversation I had with Gopher was in the wake of imploding last game. I just checked the skype log and can't really find evidence of any promises, so I assume Gopher's read comes from something I said on call later.
I think he's holding me far too accountable to things I said largely out of frustration of a failed game. I was brainstorming ways to alter my approach to not fuck the game. I wasn't promising him anything. Also, it would have been really shitty if I did. Making plans with someone you don't know will be on your team before a game starts leads to over-complicating games, and it excludes other players. I'm not saying I wouldn't try it if I saw the potential to improve our win chances, but since anything I say to gopher before a game is said knowing he may very well be on the opposing team, it seems ridiculous that he would hold me to some specific gameplan.
Not only that, but I have cut my posting by an enormous amount. It's been 35 hours and this is my 28th post. Last game I was in for 110(?) hours and made 226. That's a 60% reduction in posting speed, which is enormous. Just because Gopher's decided to take it to an extreme doesn't mean I haven't reduced my posting. Furthermore, as I've already mentioned I've chosen to limit myself not by the amount of posting I do specifically, but how much time I spend on thread. That way I don't end up thinking up absurd metrics and holding myself to stupid ideals like for example, seeing someone request I post because they think I'm lurking, and ignoring it to maintain some arbitrary ratio.
REMINDERIt's compulsory to vote before end of day. LYNCHES are done by plurality in this game, not majority. They're tallied at end of day and the player with the most votes is lynched.In the event of a tie, a no-lynch result occurs.
Hold your horses there for just one second, nobchops:
You throw this sausage down my alley:
Blarraun said:
Your gut feels totally throw me off. I don't agree with you here. Shapelog is very guarded so far and he seems like an ideal candidate for mafia. The fact that he made a few pokes and asked a few questions around doesn't put him in the crossfire at all. He hasn't gone to harass any player yet and it's as if he's feeling satisfied and waiting for the later stage of the game, or he's purposefully contributing just so he isn't accused and what better way to do it than asking and directing attention.
At this point, I’m suspicious of everyone who hasn’t voted. I may have assumed town yesterday, but their prolonged silence has me somewhat suspect (@QT / SquareBlog, mainly).
Blarraun said:
Really? Why would you assume there's higher average IQ here or that it changes anything? Does it have to do with your belief that intuitives and especially INTJ types are superior over sensors? That's a severe typological bias. If that's how the rest of your gut guessing looks like then I don't want to see it.
The IQ on here is higher than the places I’ve previously played, yes; looking at the type of conversation here alone proves this point - interacting with the various individuals confirms it further. Why is this an issue? I’m merely implying that it’s a harder game / harder to read people here compared to my previous games, because people are smarter. It has nothing to do with “Typological bias”. WTF?
I realise that you’re possibly bad at managing conflict. Hadobobobobobo told us so in one of his opening posts, so it’s all cool.
First of all, how can you tell anything about my style last game, when I was conflicted with Urakro from the beginning, that's not a great example to begin with. Secondly, why not allow the possibility that I can have more than one engagement style?
It's not an excuse to stay quiet, it was just me musing about the advantage I had coming into this game compared to the regular players. In fact my skirmish with Urakro only helps conceal my meta, maybe to my detriment since you're the kind of player to rely on past game experience and non-game related stuff to make your reads.
Speaking of fluff, my stuff can't compare to the way you water down your intuition by referencing notes, random interjections, hunches or conversations with Hado.
Who is a risky target to focus on? That's a "quote" silly "end of quote" thing to say. Oh maybe you're thinking that since you've raised your suspicion about Hado it was safe for me to target him, you're giving yourself far too much credit but it makes sense from your perspective.
Well I'm pretty sure you posted more in the last game than you have now. Although with this post you probably passed that. Well sure you can have more than one engagement style. The only issue is that doesn't mean you're town. I mean... how is saying that ever going to help me? Sure it might not be an excuse. However it's just as easily an excuse, my problem with you isn't that I think you're super scummy. It's that I think you're just scummy but not scummy enough... to actually be scum. (referring the the third read Sinny logic)
That said you've adjusted your play in the last two posts to be much more open and aggressive. Which is good. I'm not sure if it's in reaction to me but I'll just assume my vote is working.
Well it's safe because at least... 5-6 people, maybe more like 7? Have said they think Hado is scummy. The only people who were soft on Hado before your post are you (before QT's post) QT and still currently PMJ. Although that doesn't sound right I seem to remember PMJ disliking hado. I'm actually really wifom'd out right now. With so many people thinking he is scum is it even possible? On the other hand since a lot of people think he's scum when he is town if he is actually scum then I can only assume everyone will pick up on it. I know it's out of game again but the only scum game I've seen him play he did get lynched the first day he sub'd in iirc.
PMJ what do you think of Hado actually? I've lost track of your reads.
Can people explain to me why they're suspicious of QT? I don't understand it. Last time this happened it was last game and people suspected Sinny while I did not. It turned out Sinny was scum.
ATM I've picked up on some things that frustrate me about QT, but nothing that would indicate he's genuinely scummy. I've also got a string of small reads that make me think he's green. Can anyone tell me why he's scummy?
@Yellow & Gopher
The conversation I had with Gopher was in the wake of imploding last game. I just checked the skype log and can't really find evidence of any promises, so I assume Gopher's read comes from something I said on call later.
Well I didn't like him complimenting me, figured he might be budding me to push lynches. I also thought I had a connection case to you possibly but as I was thinking that he voted against you. I actually like connection cases in 9 player games since it's very one dimensional. Also he did the strange thing with Sinny... you know I wrote this all before. What new things do you want to know?
You know I can't reference the read either it seemed more a general vibe of "Screw posting" and wanting to avoid an availability lynch. I don't recall you promising anything but everything you said seemed to form the opinion that you would be posting less. That said I think we are WAY more balanced and productive compared to last game for sure. At the very least I didn't expect you to be in the lead by nine probably large posts when the highest poster (you) is around 30 and the second highest is on 22. Oh also that's exactly what I would have done if I rolled scum. (tried to get out of lurking somehow)
PMJ, that man is shady as pitch, when I read his explanations they make little sense to me, he seems to rely on his crazy intuition and makes random moves.
So, I'm either a genius at subterfuge... or an idiot with very little experience, ineptly fumbling my way through the morass of text whilst simultaneously <winge>beingabusyguyinRL</whinge>
And Hado it's purity lynch or whatever, why leave your vote off? (why not switch to someone) I might try and sleep sooner rather than later so I can be awake for the end of day.
Oh also did you say last Sinny doesn't respond well to pressure voting? What changed?
Sinny, Space dog, QT and PMJ what are your opinions on Blararan?
Well, yeah - you have. I voted for him a while back.
I started off wilfully blind to Hado as I got him so wrong last game. I even thought his play-style was the same for a while (and made a comment to this effect). Soon however, something started nagging me. I'll break it down for efficiency:
- too chummy with people; trying to get everyone on-side
- no ballsy accusations or questionings
- some nonsense about scripting, which is a complete pussy out.
For the record, if you're following a script - fuck you. Play the game.
Oh, sorry - I completely lost my train of thought there.
So yeah, Hado bugs me. Yellow has made a compelling case against him, as has... someone else I forget. I was in the process of compiling my own argument against him, but I was conscious of the fact that I was merely echoing what other people have said.
I struggle with details. Whether people like it or not, I call shots with my gut - not pure data. Data can and will come later, but under time-pressure (not so much this game, but RL) I have to call it as I see it. There's something very wrong about him. I get the impression that he's trying to straddle some kind of line... it's like he's still trying to 'be Hado', but with some kind of protocol in place which mitigates his exposure time in the limelight.
I will be voting. I'm busy writing something up. I was only amending my vote because it was less honest to leave my vote on her than it was to take it off.
Oooh right for some reason I only have you as reading hado as mild scum read. (mild compared to literally everyone else)
I am following a script! It says "Don't screw over town by over posting" not something that will be a problem now that I have explicit instructions to not stay near a computer for long.
Idk about protocol though. He did say he wanted to be different. He wanted to be a real boy!
Also I wanted more thoughts on Blar than Hado.
Okay Hado.
And there goes my arm! I'll see you all in half an hour.
I'm going AFK for a while now. I have a few jobs to finish up. In the interim I want to type up a fairly comprehensive overview of my reads on people. It won't be anything spectacular, because I'm operating on fairly limited data (aren't we all) and in spite of what Hado says, I am actually 'new' at this. Prior to paying here (this is game 2) I played a few TWGs between the ages of 17 and 20.
I'm now 30
Needless to say, those games don't count for shit.
(1)Sinny[ definitely seems like the proverbial bull in a china shop at the moment, but I’m not ready to place a vote on her yet.
This is largely because of the easily discernible contrast in her play style between this game (already) and the last. During the latter, she was quite reserved and nonchalant, whereas in this one she’s far more transparent (paraphrasing: “I’m town; I don’t know the rules”) and she’s also pushing back against her accusers with greater force (tongue in cheek I’m sure, but “Fuck you” is a big step up from the last game). I see my own previous town play (not so much here, but elsewhere) within her. She lacks finesse sure, but I don’t think she’s done anything to warrant a (2)vote just yet.
She could be changing her style up to obfuscate her true role, sure. Again, in my mind nothing warrants further suspicion at this point.
That she has potentially opened herself up to scrutiny so early on may be telling of more than just her role, though. It’s interesting (3)(interesting - I’m not FOSing quite yet) that Yellow and Habbolabodingdong are so quick to jump on her.
- Maybe they simply want to apply pressure / foster conversation; perfectly acceptable
- It’s a good way to get in a cheeky ‘whoops, shit - wrong guy! Sorry, everyone!’ day 1 lynch (especially as they have knowledge that Sinny is busy and has RL stuff going on at the moment, thus potentially making her the ‘weak’ member of the pack so they can target her / chase her down - speculative)
(4)Habdodoolah is playing exactly like he did last game (LOL at your feeble attempt to tone it down). I feel completely neutral about this. I got the guy totally wrong last time, and shan’t be jumping to any rash conclusions here.
QT has also claimed town. The guy is obviously far better versed in this game than a lot of us, and so he has my interest piqued. I’d like to see what he comes up with as we get closer to the night, and will be watching him closely - if only to learn a few tips regarding playstyles, which will only become obvious retrospectively but hey ho.
Originally Posted by Hadoblado
PMJ, what do you think of Gopher's decision to opt out of posting?
Very little, at the moment. Gopher went batshit crazy last game. I think it makes sense for quite a few of us to calm it down a bit. I think it’s wiser to think on our posts more carefully, and ensure that we’ve said everything we have to say at that moment, rather than keep adding subsequent shitpposts immediately afterwards. It’s irritating, frankly. I hope and pray that this game will see more concise contributions, rather than reams upon reams of shite which offer very little and only serve to further convolute discourse. Fact: I fucking drowned in the ‘You vs Gopher’ of last game. The mafia must have been thanking their lucky stars. You made it so very easy for them.
I’m not saying ‘don’t contribute as much’ (quite the contrary) I’m just saying ‘make sure you’ve summed everything up / got everything out there’ before you hit post.
As for myself:
- I noted previously that my style of play would be more laid back this time. I now see that day one can be quite telling, and I look forward to having more content to scrutinise.
- As per last game, I do not trust anybody. (5)Attempt to sidle up to me and you’ll only feel heat. A fair warning, I feel.
- (6)I encourage people to question me and ask me to clarify, because there’s bound to be unintentional ambiguity / lack of coherence in my posts today, as I’m on day three of very little sleep and I’m also full of a cold. In other words, I’m dead on my arse. Just be mindful that on top of that, I'm still busy in RL. Considered responses will come, but they may take time.
1) - This is just stupid. Why is it bad for Sinny to be reckless? And if in PMJ's mind it is bad for her to be reckless, why is he not willing to put his vote there? He comes across as impulsive. Why would he be tentative here?
2) - He reiterates why he's not placing a vote. Why explain this twice? Why is he fixating on justifying not putting a vote down? It reads like guilt to me. As a town I wouldn't feel bad for not placing a vote, because if I felt bad for not placing it, I'd just place it. Instead his approach is defensive (yes, this is the use of the word I was referring to earlier).
3) - Again, he's justifying his lack of action. But now he won't even FoS! This also rings false to me, because PMJ is someone with a lot of confidence.
4) - I understand his reluctance on taking a stance specifically with me, considering how he got me so wrong last game. However, how on Earth did he miss my complete lack of aggression? He later claims that he didn't. Why did he claim here that I was exactly the same, when later he's all in the know? This doesn't make sense. At all.
5) - I've already mentioned it, but it makes no sense to try and scare away potential sidlers. People sidling up to you is a really big deal. I could understand if he waited for someone to sidle up and then rejected them, and maybe even turned on them. That's pretty common. But the only reasoning behind this insistence that I can see is that PMJ doesn't want people sidling up to him because he doesn't want the attention.
6) - This is entirely reactive. He's putting the onus on other people to get him talking. This is how you fade into the background.
Post two:
Firstly, “Derp Clear”.
I am so very thankful for you bringing this term to my attention
Onward:
Originally Posted by QuickTwist View Post
I’m not sure I like you saying this without giving sinny any kind of Townie points or a Town read.
(1)It is perhaps fortunate (or condemning, depending on how you want to spin it) then that after reading Sinny’s previous two posts, I am convinced that she is town. I can’t prove this of course, but I’m willing to put my balls on the line to make this call - and in spite of the fact that I’ve requested others not sidle up to me. I expect no love from Sinny in return, just to be clear on that - I would hope that she remains suspicious, for obvious reasons.
Quote:
FoSing is usually done in the case that you already have a vote cast on another person. So its kinda like saying "I think this person is most Sus (with a vote), but I but I also think [player name] is quite Sus so I will FoS them (finger of suspision)”
Noted, thanks.
Quote:
This is a reasonable observation, but I have actually noticed something a little different in Hado. It seems he is putting on reservation making reads on people so far. It is still early, however. In any case, we should watch for the stances that Hado does take.
(2)I can’t lie - I have also noticed a subtle difference. I didn’t indulge it at the time, because we all know what happens when I go full Ni mode early on in a game… but yeah. He seems somehow… shallow? I can’t explain it. I’m watching him for sure, and his early vote on Sinny doesn’t sit well with me.
At the moment, I have no questions to pose - but they will come, later on.
Quote:
This is something that really comes down to how people function. Some players can actually make a point better by double, triple or even quadruple posting. Its best to just allow players to play in a way that comes naturally to them. There is also a 90 sec rule, which should somewhat encourage people to post what they have to more or less at one time.
I know, I just have a rod up my arse about it because the last game was tremendously difficult for me to keep on top of.
Quote:
I think you've made your point pretty clear, although I do find it a bit curious why you go to such lengths to say this specifically when it has already been mentioned elsewhere itt (I think). It seems a little... safe, I guess.
I’m just re-iterating that I’m not trying to dictate to others. That didn’t work out so well for me on my previous day one.
Quote:
This is something of slight concern to me.. especially the first thing. I found you to be almost a little too standoffish last game. I was hoping you would try and be more active this time around.
(3)… and I will be - I’m just trying to manage my propensity to call everyone a cunt / tunnel some poor, unsuspecting soul. For now, at least. Amusingly, my main concern is still around Habidoobip. I hope you can understand my reluctance to pursue this train of thought further so early on day one
1) - Here is QT making the point originally (I'm not taking credit). PMJ makes a strong green read on Sinny from two posts. I don't know which posts he's referring to, but I don't see anything that makes her clearly green. Also, she's pretty obviously scripting. She asked around a lot after last game to see what behaviours she should change in order to look more town. She went back to the obvious behaviour that got her correctly confirmed town in game one. I do see Sinny as a little green, but I wouldn't feel comfortable committing to the notion yet. Why is he so certain now that she's green, when before he was calling her out? Why is her bullinachinashop schtick suddenly convincing him strongly that she's green? This is inconsistent on two levels:
a) He was so unconfident he couldn't even FoS her before, now he's super confident
b) He was leaning one way on her and then suddenly swung the other.
If PMJ is scum, he's not wanting to tunnel someone he knows is town. On the other hand, as scum, reading someone that is green as green is a way to get cred.
This screams scum to me. Confident to read people green but not confident enough to FoS?
2) - But you have lied. You said that I was exactly the same as last game, and now you're saying that you did notice a difference. Also the phrasing... He's apologising again by saying that "he can't lie". He knows he's lied, his only want in the world right now is to convince us he didn't lie, so he articulates in such a way that draws from that motive. It's loose freudian type logic, but if that doesn't convince you, there's still the fact that he changed his mind and lied about it.
(3) - He's saying he's reining himself in, just like I'm doing. Except, he's gone pretty damn aggressive. He's been goading people etc. What he says he's doing is reining in aggression, but what is actually happening is he's not aggressive until he knows who he can be aggressive at. That might be because he wants more information so that he's actually being aggressive towards his read (because he's town), or it might be because he's scum who's waiting on more information so that he know's how hard and in which direction he needs to push. Either way, he's apologising for it, again. He's justifying his lack of aggression preemptively, and then acting in a way inconsistent with his words.
His posts are quoted, and I respond to the red with the dot points below. He had another post I could have dived, but I'm deliberately trying to keep it light (or lighter).
Oh also, I'd like to rake back Point 3 of my second post. I somehow missed him saying "for now". I still think it's apologetic, but I no longer consider it inconsistent. Sorry for the confusion. Sloppy of me.
His posts are quoted, and I respond to the red with the dot points below. He had another post I could have dived, but I'm deliberately trying to keep it light (or lighter).
Why are you deliberately keeping it lighter? Come at me.
Also, nice format - totally going to steal that, if you don't mind
Your case is weak. That's fine - it's day one; I can't see that anyone has a particularly strong case yet. I'll start typing a proper response now / hopefully finish it later (have tp AFK for at least an hour in a sec), but wanted to get my first comment in before I left. Why go light? Let me have it.
No, I don't mean I'm going light on you. I mean I'm not posting everything that comes to mind because it'll dilute clarity.
I also have limited time. I'm trying not to post past midnight (it's midnight right now). I might break this rule since it's almost lynch time, but I don't want to. Rather, I'll try and wake up earlier so I can post before work.
1) - This is just stupid. Why is it bad for Sinny to be reckless? And if in PMJ's mind it is bad for her to be reckless, why is he not willing to put his vote there? He comes across as impulsive. Why would he be tentative here?
2) - He reiterates why he's not placing a vote. Why explain this twice? Why is he fixating on justifying not putting a vote down? It reads like guilt to me. As a town I wouldn't feel bad for not placing a vote, because if I felt bad for not placing it, I'd just place it. Instead his approach is defensive (yes, this is the use of the word I was referring to earlier).
3) - Again, he's justifying his lack of action. But now he won't even FoS! This also rings false to me, because PMJ is someone with a lot of confidence.
4) - I understand his reluctance on taking a stance specifically with me, considering how he got me so wrong last game. However, how on Earth did he miss my complete lack of aggression? He later claims that he didn't. Why did he claim here that I was exactly the same, when later he's all in the know? This doesn't make sense. At all.
5) - I've already mentioned it, but it makes no sense to try and scare away potential sidlers. People sidling up to you is a really big deal. I could understand if he waited for someone to sidle up and then rejected them, and maybe even turned on them. That's pretty common. But the only reasoning behind this insistence that I can see is that PMJ doesn't want people sidling up to him because he doesn't want the attention.
6) - This is entirely reactive. He's putting the onus on other people to get him talking. This is how you fade into the background.
1) Simple, really. Of all the people on this forum, I know Sinny the best. I don’t claim to know her well, but I can say with confidence that her brutish entrance isn’t out of character. It seems to me like she was simply being herself. Also, it was post one of day one - why the fuck would I place a vote on her straight away? That would be somewhat premature, would it not?
2) I honestly hadn’t even realised I had repeated myself. There’s a good reason for this, and it’s inane. I’ll spare those who can’t be arsed by spoiling it:
[spolier]As I mentioned elsewhere in the thread (I think) I’m averaging 3-4 hours of sleep a night at the moment. On top of that, I’m running a department, co-running a home and looking after two very young children. My mental state is ‘completely fucked in the arse’. Those perceiving me as scattered are simply picking up on my exhaustion. It sucks, but it is what it is - I try my best to overcome it, but it’s insurmountable some days. Thus, mistakes are made[/spoiler]
Suffice to say, you’re nitpicking here.
3) So I have confidence - why does that mean I should FOS someone I don’t really suspect, because their behaviour falls within what I perceive to be an acceptable range? I don’t understand what you’re getting at here. You really are clutching at straws. I can forgive that, though. Day one is often a bit weird.
4) Whoa there, bucko. I didn’t at all perceive you as aggressive, and didn’t insinuate such later down the line. Quite the contrary - I note that you’re rather more reserved, as though treading a fine line. Again, you’re clutching at straws here. There is no validity to your claim.
5) So I like boundaries. I can see validity in your point (or was it QT?) with regards to sometimes being better able to read people if they get close, but I like to keep people at arm’s length, and I like them to know that. Is this an issue?
Also, if I didn’t want attention… why the fuck am I one of the more active users today? Again, clutching. Cluuutchiiiing.
6) No, it isn’t. It’s a reasonable request which - as you can tell by this very post - allows me to engage with the game better. I get lost in a sea of data, and very much appreciate it when someone asks me a direct question. That gives me something to work with. I appreciate it all the more when someone attacks me, because it allows me to better focus.
So your part one is complete shit, then. I’ll get to part two momentarily. I have things to do now.
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). So, from the cuff:
)
