INTP with vengeance vs INTJ with vengeance

[Nihilmatic]

On paper and throughout several stories in fiction, it's always the INTJs that are seen as badasses with elite tactical skillzzzzzzzzz. Where are the INTPs. Compared to INTJs, INTPs just seem like the big loser staring at the clouds with the best possible plan until it's too late, while the INTJs are already working on their master plan and moving each chess piece up. Hypothetically let's say that a large organization killed both an INTP's and INTJ's deeply valued loved ones. How would an well developed INTJ compare to a well developed INTP who are both extremely pissed off.

Honestly I don't want to limit this to only INTJ's and INTP's. But I do think the rationals and some NF's would be amazing in this type of vengeance seeking.

Hypothetically let's say the protagonist is early 30s and he comes home to find a bloody streak across the floor, instantly he thinks of his 4 year old daughter, he goes into her room and finds a pool of blood that strecthes all the way to the living room. How would each individual rational approach this.

In theory if it were me, I don't think I would be mentally stable. After a situation like that my sanity could easily be questioned. Logically I think I would most likely hunt down whoever did it and plan a perfect way to give the ones who did it what they deserved (most likely very brutal and sadistic).

 

[Jennywocky]

Typically I think the INTP is more liable to change who they are inside to accommodate change and work through it, versus needing to get revenge; I find INTJs are far more outward-directed and revenge-directed.

However, if I could maintain a long-range plan, and if I could override any natural empathy/balance I feel towards other people, I'm sure I could screw someone over badly a la Saw scenario. I think I'm more flexible than the INTJ, and I think I'd be more interested not in imposing my own particular feelings on them but actually letting them expose what they most fear, then taking that and putting them in positions where they basically screw themselves over. You can create adjusting plans versus forcing them into one particular rigid plan.

Again, though, I think the thing is that most INTPs are flexible and can see something from multiple perspectives. It's hard to hold a fierce rage, the more you learn about a given situation, and if you're going to destroy someone, you need to have a tight grip on one particular perspective (the one that catalyzes your anger), and you have to be willing to doggedly pursue it rather than flexing to future changes in the situation. I just find I don't typically hate someone intensely enough or long enough to implement a plan of destruction; at best, it remains a theoretical exercise.

 

[Nihilmatic]

Really? If someone close to me was hurt I could see myself plotting to really get the one that hurt someone close to me. If it resulted in their death I can see myself getting overly attached with revenge..

 

[StevenM]

My guess, is that the emotions involved fry the INTP's brain, and they know it. Overheats it and it melts.

I've been anchored in a cognitive conditioning that anger when expressed is going to land me in a very bad state of affairs. I've never 'won' with anger. If I let it go, it goes, and once the cat escapes the bag, there's no chance of getting it back in. Then, I'm left with quite a catastrophic disaster.

I have won many battles. Just never with anger.

But that's just my story.

I find with others, (along with suspecting INTJ's), anger does not fry the brain at all, but strengthens their capacities. Tried once, and it worked, they get benefits/reward -> dopamine rush -> must do again.

A dog snarls and yaps at the neighbours all the time, because it works. The neighbours go away. The attempt to scare them worked, and them going away is reward. Must do that again next time.

 

[Yellow]

Again, though, I think the thing is that most INTPs are flexible and can see something from multiple perspectives. It's hard to hold a fierce rage, the more you learn about a given situation, and if you're going to destroy someone, you need to have a tight grip on one particular perspective (the one that catalyzes your anger), and you have to be willing to doggedly pursue it rather than flexing to future changes in the situation. I just find I don't typically hate someone intensely enough or long enough to implement a plan of destruction; at best, it remains a theoretical exercise.

This is true for me too. Since the hypothetical situation insists that I would be "extremely pissed off", which is unlikely in the given circumstance, I have to assume that it would quickly fizzle into accepting the reality of the situation, and moving on with my life as effectively as I'm able.

Also, I don't think most INTJs are really cut out for revenge. I mean, they have that really cool intuition and the ability to see a plan through, but they also know their limits. "Mastermind" is a fun moniker, but it shouldn't be taken literally. An extremely pissed INTJ may go ESFP for a few seconds and do something incredibly stupid, but if they deny/survive the impulse and calm down, they are likely to cut their losses. After all, that seems like the most rational response.

 

[RaBind]

My guess, is that the emotions involved fry the INTP's brain, and they know it. Overheats it and it melts.

I've been anchored in a cognitive conditioning that anger when expressed is going to land me in a very bad state of affairs. I've never 'won' with anger. If I let it go, it goes, and once the cat escapes the bag, there's no chance of getting it back in. Then, I'm left with quite a catastrophic disaster.

I have won many battles. Just never with anger.

But that's just my story.

I find with others, (along with suspecting INTJ's), anger does not fry the brain at all, but strengthens their capacities. Tried once, and it worked, they get benefits/reward -> dopamine rush -> must do again.

A dog snarls and yaps at the neighbours all the time, because it works. The neighbours go away. The attempt to scare them worked, and them going away is reward. Must do that again next time.

I think what you're talking about is intense anger within a short frame of time. In situations where the fight or flight response is activated in individuals. Intps might actually cope differently, perhaps more effectively, when it comes to something like a long held grudge where they have the time and resources to prepare and simulate though all sorts of scenarios in their head.

Then again anger itself is usually a short sighted lens to look though, so it'll probably impair their intellectual capacity and perceptiveness.

How the different types cope in a Fight or flight state or some other unnatural states is a very interesting topic which I would happily read into if someone could provide insight or perhaps a direction to some resources.

 

[Nihilmatic]

I think Law Abiding Citizen (although the ending was horrible) would play a really nice fit in how INTJ's may react, if they have the grit and capacity for it.

 

[StevenM]

I think what you're talking about is intense anger within a short frame of time. In situations where the fight or flight response is activated in individuals. Intps might actually cope differently, perhaps more effectively, when it comes to something like a long held grudge where they have the time and resources to prepare and simulate though all sorts of scenarios in their head.

Then again anger itself is usually a short sighted lens to look though, so it'll probably impair their intellectual capacity and perceptiveness.

How the different types cope in a Fight or flight state or some other unnatural states is a very interesting topic which I would happily read into if someone could provide insight or perhaps a direction to some resources.

You are correct, I lost the focus from the topic.

I suppose, already as it is, I have had grudges for people. But there's no telling what I would do if someone killed someone close to me.

In more common occurances, I've learned to just burn bridges and never look back. They become a stranger again, thier presence in the world is quickly forgotten in my mind. Even if they are living peacefully, all that matters is that so am I.

Sorry, I have nothing better to contribute.

 

[Fukyo]

You're having a dick measuring contest with a bad typological stereotype.

 

[RaBind]

You're having a dick measuring contest with a bad typological stereotype.

But dick measuring contests are fun, except for people with small dicks.

 

[Nihilmatic]

You're having a dick measuring contest with a bad typological stereotype.

Hmm. I think this thread and the intimidation factors of INTP vs INTJ cannot be measured by cognitive functions. There are millions of variables for an individual so I think revenge has more to do with your individual personality and anger rather than Ti Ne Si Fe vs Ni Te Fi Se. Both could be deadly or more pacifistix than the other.

 

[Spirit]

You're having a dick measuring contest with a bad typological stereotype.

Yes. It has Keirsey written all over it.

 

[Cognisant]

I think the movie John Wick was a good example of a vengeful INTP.

In the scene where the guy tries to buy his care he's sharp tongued, as you would be when depressed and some pick is hassling you, but he doesn't do anything or even appear to ready to fight, he just says fuck off and observes.

INTPs don't react to conflict by getting fired up, we shut down, throughout the entire movie there's a feeling of depressed inevitability, no screaming warcrys, no flashy movies, just headshot-headshot-headshot-necksnap-headshot-etc, he's not trying to hurt people they're just in his way, it's cold and professional, even when he catches up to his target he doesn't fuck around or torture the guy, he just ends it.

That's INTP vengeance imo, we don't get angry and prance about on an adrenaline high we internalize the pain and switch off the part of the mind that tells you to stop, that's why we can say such horrible things when we're angry, rather than being clouded by emotion our minds turn cold unfettered.

When the guys invade his home he reacts like an INTP, put simply he doesn't.

The whole thing with the car at the airport, depressed and self destructive, INTPs are known for self destructive behavior (smoking, drinking) as a way of dealing with out emotions because unless we totally break down we don't lose our composure, haven't we all been in a state where we wanted to cry but it just wasn't happening?

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Really? If someone close to me was hurt I could see myself plotting to really get the one that hurt someone close to me. If it resulted in their death I can see myself getting overly attached with revenge..

What you are hypothesising about has no connection to reality whatsoever.

It's pure fantasy based on typological assumptions about personalities taken to the extreme.

If you want to think about how vengeance works look at real examples of successful/attempted vengeance and people that perpetrated it, then try to apply your typology/keirsey/whatever bias you like (if you really have to).

 

[dark+matters]

let's say that a large organization killed both an INTP's and INTJ's deeply valued loved ones.How would an well developed

(I'd have to change "well-developed" to "criminally insane" in order to consider the question seriously.)

INTJ compare to a well developed INTP who are both extremely pissed off.

...let's say the protagonist is early 30s and he comes home to find a bloody streak across the floor, instantly he thinks of his 4 year old daughter, he goes into her room and finds a pool of blood that strecthes all the way to the living room. How would each individual rational approach this.

As Blarrun suggested, this is definitely an exercise for writing an action movie rather than realistically simulating a situation like this with the complex emotions of a mature adult in the 21st century going through trauma in the Western world (which is fine). But realistically, if one was either in America or even in a very dangerous country or war zone, there wouldn't be anything to do but accept it. It's war. It's life. There is great evil in it. That's that.

Maybe join a resistance movement, report the known facts, search for your lost kids, or hide. I think most of us will know multiple someones who have died in a premature, unfair manner by the time we are in our 30s. There's nothing to do about it but seek personal answers until we find them, grieve, and let it go. I think I lean towards INTP and this is what I have done. My dad was definitely INTJ, IMO, and this is what he had to do. There's no difference in how we had to react. I've known an ESFJ who went through the same thing and she trekked all around the globe looking for her kid. She never found him. She just had to go through the same process as we did. I've known two ISTPs, an ESTP and an ISTJ who also went through the same thing (violence going uncaught or unpunished- or even punished. It's completely and totally unsatisfying even when a murderer is caught, convicted or even executed in a situation like that aside from knowing that the world is temporarily a little bit safer. It's pointless. Completely hollow.).

I think that each of the 16 types are in each of us. We're all natural born actors. There's no reason why we can't reach out and hold on to any set of beliefs, values, emotions, etc. as they stream through us (at least temporarily). I'm not entirely certain that most fictional bad guys are any one type, but if there really are all these fictional bad guys with the INTJ type, maybe most of the most successful authors of popular fiction are INFPs and they are doing imaginary exercises with their aspirational Te's. If we assign any weight to the cognitive functions (and I don't think I do, really, but maybe there's something there) the INFP shadow function would be Ti and less frequently accessible or less natural to use as a basis to come up with believable and interesting characters.

 

[scorpiomover]

On paper and throughout several stories in fiction, it's always the INTJs that are seen as badasses with elite tactical skillzzzzzzzzz. Where are the INTPs.

INTPs are Ti-doms. We like to think out every possibility and cover ourselves for all of them.

People who go in as badasses often get killed in the cross-fire. If they don't, they're often arrested and put in prison for murder, if not right away, then a few years later. If they don't, often, one of their victims' family comes gunning for them. So the more one is a badass, the more opportunities for death.

INTPs see this coming. Ti wants to live, and Ti will do whatever it can to protect itself. Hence, if murder is a possibility, it must be done in a way with zero comebacks of any kind. Most effective way to achieve that, is for no-one to ever consider the INTP as a potential suspect. Most effective way to do that, is to be a "ghost", i.e. to go in, kill the target, and leave, without ever having been seen, and without leaving any evidence of his presence. Just for good measure, if the INTP gives the impression that the INTP is useless at badassery, then no-one will ever consider that it was ever the INTP.

As it happens, INTPs excel at blending into the background and merging with the camouflage, to such an extent, that an INTP often finds the person sitting next to him is shocked when the INTP pipes up and says something, even though the INTP has been sitting next to the person for a good half-hour. So being a ghost assassin is right up an INTP's street.

INTPs also are very good at giving the impression that we're useless, partially by dressing like a hobo, partially by our manner of admitting faults so readily, and partially by our tendency to pontificate out loud about the most seemingly-irrelevant of things. So we've got that side nailed down as well.

As a result, if an INTP wants to extract vengeance on another person, he'll do his utmost to ensure that no-one will ever know that it was him, and no-one would ever suspect him either, and he's really, really good at both.

Usually, though, our Ti will point out that the gain is not worth the cost. So we won't even bother.

 

[INTPWolf]

I play mtg with a INTJ quite oft. so i have a little bit of an idea on how intps and intjs like to do things. Intjs like to focus heavily on one specific aspect of taking the opponent down, this can lead to openings and errors when things don't go as planned, but can be a totally unstoppable force if all goes well. intps on the other hand love to be prepared for anything because we can think of so many possible outcomes, and in the meantime have the patience to sit back and wait until the planets align like giant lenses to focus an almighty beam of the death to rain down on adversaries. As a general rule i don't like risks, so i like to stay on the sidelines nudging everything slowly into place.
But i dont see the intp type to be as vengeful and spiteful as you would see an intj become, my anger only ever surfaces for very short seconds and manifests in the shape of an atomic mushroom cloud.

 

[TheManBeyond]

i was once publicly "bullied" in a forum. kinda.
i mean the admins and stuff were a bunch of idiots and they bullied everyone, it was kinda like a circle pit everyone was playing knowing there were no rules, kinda like throwing yourself at the lions and everyone drinking beer and wine having sex enjoying the fight until death thing. I remember one of the users had actual real life problems with other because of sending shit to all the other guy's facebook account friends luls.
what i did was contact a higher state of admins because it was a company administrating the forums and gave them evidence of the bully and managed to almost close the website. I did not wanted it to get closed so i asked them for mercy, i just did it for the sake of kinda defeating them. xD

i'm whatever type you want me to be.

 

[TheAdditional1]

Hi guys. TheAdditional1 here.

In the various descriptions I've read about INTP's, one particularly apt one was basically about how we are really chill, tolerant and flexible people, until you cross one of our fundamental values; then we essentially devote all of our energy into rectifying it. That's me to a t.

The absolute worst thing that anybody can ever do to me is put me in a hypothetical corner where I have no escape except through them. I'm a really nice, sympathetic guy who doesn't want innocent people getting hurt or bullied, especially since I was bullied a lot growing up. But that means I hold back a LOT and my frustrations kind of get pent up, and I've surprised myself with how absolutely ruthless I'm perfectly willing to be when I'm put in a corner - physically or semantically. There have been times when I didn't even care that I would likely get fucked up if I fought - I was about to fight anyway because it was just a tsunami of an outlet. Build up, then outlet.


Why am I saying all of this backstory? For context because I think everyone here can relate to it, just by merit of being a P. By being Perceiving instead of Judging, we have to hold back and put our emotions on a backburner until we can come up with a more concrete solution. So the question is, what happens when we do come to that concrete, unshakeable conclusion? In this hypothetical situation, our family being killed would be one of those things - no ambiguity whatsoever. Fundamental value is broken. We now go from P to J - a conclusion has been met, and now we are at the same position as an INTJ in that case.

So what's the difference from there? I think we would be more brutal than most, because we've emotionally held back on so much. In this situation I'm largely calling upon one of my particular interpretations of anger - anger is an emotional state that gives us the resources (energy, bravery, aggression) to deal with threats. I've really internalized this concept, and so I actively suppress anger when there's nothing I can do about a situation, and actively utilize anger into a rational course of action. To use an analogy: In a purely emotional person, lashing out in anger would be a basic bomb exploding in the middle of wherever - collateral bystander damage, not much direction. But for someone who knows how to use that emotion? It's the explosion that sends the sniper's bullet into the heart of the target half a mile away.

So how would I, as an INThinkingP react to such a family tragedy as that? I would be overwhelmed by a flood of emotions until I channeled it into that very specific intention of vengeance, in which I would cease to characteristically hold back at all and it would be a pretty dangerous result.




TL;DR: INTP's have a flexibility that can change with the circumstances. Whatever actions they then take are likely to be more potent than usual because they likely have stronger conviction, and pent up emotions that give an edge to their drive to action.

 

[SolarCycler]

INTPs don't react to conflict by getting fired up, we shut down ...snip...

INTPs are known for self destructive behavior (smoking, drinking) as a way of dealing with out emotions because unless we totally break down we don't lose our composure, haven't we all been in a state where we wanted to cry but it just wasn't happening?

This sounds crazy to me. First I would examine the cause of the conflict, then how it actually pertains to me, then defend/defuse/exit. So it's defend for what I believe is right, defuse for those who are hot-headed, and exit for those who's sense has left the building(sadly that's too many).

I don't like being lumped together with those that go for the life limiting chemicals or drug assistance. To me it's all about maturity. If you rely on a crutch for your mental well-being, you can't mature very well. That's why I believe religion is such a bad thing, as is praising celebrities and sports entertainers. The last thing I want to do is feel sorry for myself, that's the true reason for crying when sad. I can only strive to be better, make the situation better. But if I need to show weakness, crying can be a good calculated move. It's all about taking control and manipulating others thoughts when needed.

---

I often wonder if I have a child that has my genes that I invested much time in making them a good person and they were killed. Would I rationalize that the child was not perfect and think oh well, I tried. I guess I'm asking if I would love my children, seems I need to wait to find out.

If it was my partner in life, the question than would be, have I found the perfect one or did I settle? Of course if I lost that woman, if I settled, I can only assume my path in life should have taken a different path. If I found a soulmate, well, I don't want to self-incriminated myself here.

So you can see, I place importance on people upon how they live up to my ideals. It pains me more to see a helpless animal dead on the road than it does to know someone got gunned down--especially if they weren't right in my area.

 

[Alias]

I'd get all Sherlock Holmes and work with the police to find the killer.

A good example of an INTP losing a loved one is Severus Snape from Harry Potter. He gets really irritable and does whatever it takes to kill his lover's killer, even if it meant joining him as a spy. Man I love Snape as a character.

 

[DrGregoryHouse]

My guess, is that the emotions involved fry the INTP's brain, and they know it. Overheats it and it melts.

I've been anchored in a cognitive conditioning that anger when expressed is going to land me in a very bad state of affairs. I've never 'won' with anger. If I let it go, it goes, and once the cat escapes the bag, there's no chance of getting it back in. Then, I'm left with quite a catastrophic disaster.

I have won many battles. Just never with anger.

But that's just my story.

I find with others, (along with suspecting INTJ's), anger does not fry the brain at all, but strengthens their capacities. Tried once, and it worked, they get benefits/reward -> dopamine rush -> must do again.

A dog snarls and yaps at the neighbours all the time, because it works. The neighbours go away. The attempt to scare them worked, and them going away is reward. Must do that again next time.

Yes

 

[Yellow]

I play mtg with a INTJ quite oft. so i have a little bit of an idea on how intps and intjs like to do things. Intjs like to focus heavily on one specific aspect of taking the opponent down, this can lead to openings and errors when things don't go as planned, but can be a totally unstoppable force if all goes well. intps on the other hand love to be prepared for anything because we can think of so many possible outcomes, and in the meantime have the patience to sit back and wait until the planets align like giant lenses to focus an almighty beam of the death to rain down on adversaries. As a general rule i don't like risks, so i like to stay on the sidelines nudging everything slowly into place.
But i dont see the intp type to be as vengeful and spiteful as you would see an intj become, my anger only ever surfaces for very short seconds and manifests in the shape of an atomic mushroom cloud.

I dunno. My INTJ and I play MTG nearly every day, and it's fairly different. He focuses all of his energy into creating one perfect deck that can account for nearly any contingency. It's carefully crafted to reduce the random chance from drawing, and he prefers to set things up for a huge, whopping kill at the end that would leave me with -25 points, or something crazy like that. On the other hand, I like to build several decks to see what new interesting dynamics I can come up with. When it comes down to the kill, I also prefer to play with synergy, but I am perfectly satisfied to chip him down bit by bit without the theatrical flair.

But, this is the safety of home, playing a game. I doubt either INTP or INTJ are cut out for Hollywood-style revenge sequences.