INTP with low Low Logical Score on Multiple Intelligence

[TruthSeeker]

Okay, so I fit the INTP profile better than I do any other, although I have toyed around with the idea that I might be an INFP from time to time. I'm pretty damn certain of my type, but I consistently get low logical/mathematical scores in the multiple intelligences test (usually verbal/linguistic and musical are at the top, most commonly in that order). Intrapersonal is generally third.

I know exactly why this is. I have a non-verbal learning disability. I am relatively bad when it comes to non-verbal reasoning and very good with verbal reasoning (gifted, actually). And yet I am an INTP...I am very logical, at least when I want to be (like when someone makes a grammar mistake), it just doesn't show up on the test because logical and mathematical are grouped under the same category.

So are logical and mathematical intelligences really the same thing? It seems like the answer is no, even if they usually go together. I think mathematical intelligence is actually logical + spatial, unless I'm quite mistaken. I might be great at the logical thinking process math is based on, but then again my linguistic intelligence doesn't mean I'm good at Hawaiian...I don't speak it, just like I don't (and can't) speak math very fluently. So my logical intelligence is no good there. Math is just the language through which logic is expressed and the two are clearly separable. So why are they even in the same category on the test? I know, I know, it works for most people, but surely there must be others out there who are bad spatially but good logically? Aren't we people too?

 

[Fukyo]

This test basically just asks you "Do you like solving logical puzzles?"

How likes and dislikes translate into actual ability is beyond me.

 

[snafupants]

with IQ tests - this already has some people up in arms - math and logical intelligence are distinct categories; the other two are verbal and visuospatial. but like you were saying, there are interrelations between logical and mathematical, and maybe spatial if the math in question is geometry or otherwise more advanced.

as for bad spatially and good logically, my uncle is an architect who has a relatively limited spatial intelligence/imagination, but whose logical abilities are basically unsurpassed - he should have been a lawyer. his IQ is 147 but he cant visualize a problem for crap. as an interesting aside, my spatial scores usually exceed my logical scores, which - like you - might be related to having a tenuous hold on the T dimension. however, my conundrum is usually intp/infj.

n.b., the problem is probably what fukyo said relating to the tests limitation (i.e., preference vs. skill).

 

[TruthSeeker]

I know the test most commonly taken asks for preference over skill (not all tests do, however, and I score low in the "logical" category on all of them). But I don't just dislike solving math puzzles, I'm bad at them. For whatever reason, I can't get numbers in my head. Words, yes, logical frameworks, yes, but for whatever reason not numbers or ratios. Math was always the hardest subject in school for me (even though I could have done much better if I had tried harder).

But I'm actually very good at designing houses...believe it or not, I used to do it for fun. I can't draw, but I have a very vivid visual imagination. An ISFP once told me when I was lamenting my lack of artistic ability "You are amazing! You don't need to be good at painting with an imagination like yours! With your gift for words, you could just describe something, and the picture would just pop into people's heads!" (Interestingly, she had a non-verbal learning disability as well...and yet could draw beautifully). So I don't think I have a deficient spatial imagination, it's just not logical or precise (many INFP's are architects). I'm still better at languages, however, and I'm planning to go either into law or academia/teaching. I'd enjoy both fields, and because of my difficulties in math pretty much all other illustrious INTP professions are closed to me. Science, computers, architecture...practically all of them involve math...

 

[fullerene]

It's funny you should mention that, because there's actually a chem/math double major (tho he's probably an INTJ) floating around here who has also been diagnosed with a non-verbal learning disorder. If you're lucky this thread will catch his eye and he'll come by.

Math is basically pure logic coupled with Ne, at least if it's taught properly. It's pure logic at the lower levels, where the "discoveries" have already been made, and about 90/10 Ne/logic on the abstract, theoretical levels. The way it's taught in middle/high school (and probably a lot of colleges too... but I'm not sure about that) is heavily Si-centered, memorizing the rules and trying to grind them into your head through repitition. Mathematicians have everything broken down into axioms and theorems, and prove what you may consider to be even the most basic things from yet simpler assumptions. Even things like "an even number times an even number results in an even number" are logically provable from lower-order assumptions. In my experience, the more advanced the math course and the better schooled the teacher, the closer their lessons seem to pure logic.

Honestly, although I don't know hardly anything about you (given your 25 posts), but looking at your avatar, the "lover of thoughts, dreams, and songs" description, seeing that your friends think you have a fantastic, but imprecise, imagination, and that you say you're just bad at logic, I'd say you might want to look into seeing if you're an INFJ. These two types mistype as each other quite a bit (though I think more INFJs mistype as INTPs than vice versa), so it's worth a try.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Hm...I dismissed the INFJ option at first because I'm extremely messy and am always late for things. I could definitely see myself as an F, but not as a J, and the more I think it over the more I doubt I'm INFP. I really don't know. What does an INTP with a well-developed Fe look like? Or an INFJ with a well-developed Ti? Are they similar?

 

[TruthSeeker]

UPDATE: No...I've thought it over, and I'm still fairly sure I'm an INTP, just one with a strong "romantic" bent. But the "bad at math" part is still undeniable. So maybe it just wasn't taught well to me after all (in all fairness, I always got terrible teachers). Or maybe I just disliked it so intensely I couldn't summon the metal energy to do well (no offense to anyone who really likes the subject...it's just not my cup of tea). I preferred using my Ti-Ne to think about abstract ideas and the arts (science fascinates me and I can never resist picking up science magazines, especially when they focus on the "big picture", but I could never get passionate about it in school because it involved so much you-know-what).

 

[TheHmmmm]

This test basically just asks you "Do you like solving logical puzzles?"

How likes and dislikes translate into actual ability is beyond me.

Here here. I'm not particularly enthusiastic about anything on that test, and scored less than or equal to 70 on all categories. It's a nonsense test, don't sweat it.

 

[snafupants]

Hm...I dismissed the INFJ option at first because I'm extremely messy and am always late for things. I could definitely see myself as an F, but not as a J, and the more I think it over the more I doubt I'm INFP. I really don't know. What does an INTP with a well-developed Fe look like? Or an INFJ with a well-developed Ti? Are they similar?

This internal debate was going on with me a short while ago. Instead of looking at the Ti, look at whether its Ni or Ne; do this if only because Ni and Ne are primary or auxiliary in either type, and therfore more pronounced, whereas Ti is tertiary and somewhat hidden in INFJ. From there - the juncture where you decide Ni or Ne - you can infer INFJ or INTP, respectively. Alternatively and qualitatively, you could ask yourself how much energy is expended by using Fe. Also, check out both descriptions and see which seems to fit. Summarily, use both bottom-up and top-down to confirm/suss out your personality.

 

[fullerene]

ick... sorry I didn't come back to respond to this.

I started out really heavily with the math/logic/problem solving brain when younger, and then grew to like humanities/arts/symbols as I aged. That's why I kind of thought it was a Ti/Ne split. How likely does ENTP sound? You said you were very good with words as well, so I'm not sure why I didn't ask that first. enjoying abstract arts and big picture stuff is usually put in the realm of intution.

Not really important, but.... science without math is like language without definitions.

 

[Words]

Ok, I think people should focus less on the type confirmation.

TruthSeeker. I am also pretty bad at math[I failed some math subjects although I failed more in english/literature] and I despairingly hate the subject. [More accurately, I like exploratory math and hate standard math] What can I do If I just don't get it? But I'm thinking that the cause of your perceived weakness is located in the means of attending math. Perhaps try at a different angle, preferably one wherein you prefer and easily see the connection. Ti is an independent function that likes to solve puzzles "its own way".

 

[Ermine]

Personally, I think there's a bit of a disconnect between "logical/mathematical intelligence" and actual ability in those areas. My score on that test is also nothing special. I'm kind of the opposite of fullerene. I started out with art and writing, and always had a thing for symbols and metaphors. I didn't have so much as a vague inkling that I liked math and science until I was about 17. I always got good grades in my math and science classes, but I also got great grades in everything, so this wasn't anything special.

The turning point for me was learning about functions my junior year of high school. When I started to see math as seeing the relationship between different variables rather than pure number crunching, I started to open up to it. A couple years later, I got to the point of changing to a computer science major without being scared stiff of the rigorous math courses it includes.

Maybe it's just a matter of finding the right puzzles to solve? Ti can be a little stubborn in the puzzles it embraces.

 

[fullerene]

aww..... well, I guess something about us had to be directly opposite eventually.

*sniffles*

 

[TruthSeeker]

ick... sorry I didn't come back to respond to this.

I started out really heavily with the math/logic/problem solving brain when younger, and then grew to like humanities/arts/symbols as I aged. That's why I kind of thought it was a Ti/Ne split. How likely does ENTP sound? You said you were very good with words as well, so I'm not sure why I didn't ask that first. enjoying abstract arts and big picture stuff is usually put in the realm of intution.

Not really important, but.... science without math is like language without definitions.

Funny you should say that, because even though I never liked logic/math/problem solving and always liked the arts and the abstract, I did like studying "physical" technology as a boy in addition to "big picture science" (for the lack of a better term). I was always engaging the world with my imagination, and always had to do, not just think. I convinced my class to build a "time machine" in the first grade, and was trying to write a novel at the age of 6! I even used to want to be an inventor. And it would explain having scientific/technical leanings while not being into logic and math. And (not that this means anything) I love being the center of attention, acting, and embellish almost every story I tell on the spot to make it more interesting and/or funny. So yeah, I could definitely see myself being an ENTP.

But I'm still not positive. Apparently I was shy as a boy and can drift into states of deep contemplation, just like an INTP does. And most importantly, my life story sounds a milder version of yours. Between the ages of ten and twelve I remember suddenly becoming passionate about English literature, almost as if someone had flipped switch in my brain. My writing skills also improved tremendously (I was considered the finest essayist in both my graduating class of 450 and even one of the best in an "elite" university program). I even won the English award in my senior year! So I might have been an INTP experiencing an Ne "kick-in", and just never looked back because I didn't like subjects with too much Ti.

I'm thinking that the cause of your perceived weakness is located in the means of attending math. Perhaps try at a different angle, preferably one wherein you prefer and easily see the connection. Ti is an independent function that likes to solve puzzles "its own way".

Words, I think you are right, but I have not taken math since high school and will probably never take it again (unless it's downright impossible for me to find a suitable career that doesn't use it). I did do well in math in Grade 9 (though that was just easy stuff like linear equations), and although I was already starting to show signs it wasn't my strong subject in middle school, I am sure I could at least be good at it if I had the right instructor. It is never too late to develop a passion for something, and perhaps I will give math a second chance someday. As it stands, I have no interest in it (except for inventing number systems based off weird digits like 7 and 15 and solving basic problems with them for a joke, which may be incredibly nerdy but isn't really that useful). And I'm not quite sure how "else" I ought to attack math problems. I tried very unorthodox ways of solving them in high school, and it didn't seem to work then...

Maybe it's just a matter of finding the right puzzles to solve? Ti can be a little stubborn in the puzzles it embraces.

I think that's exactly right. I think my "problem" is if there isn't an incredibly large amount of abstraction and symbolism in something, my Ne loses interest. Which is good, because, I suppose; without it I would probably be less creative. I'm more of a "divergent" than "convergent" thinker in terms of taste (although I do both), which is why I prefer the "architect" description of the INTP to "the problem solver". I don't even think I like "puzzle-solving" all that much, actually...

 

[Words]

I think that's exactly right. I think my "problem" is if there isn't an incredibly large amount of abstraction and symbolism in something, my Ne loses interest. Which is good, because, I suppose; without it I would probably be less creative. I'm more of a "divergent" than "convergent" thinker in terms of taste (although I do both), which is why I prefer the "architect" description of the INTP to "the problem solver". I don't even think I like "puzzle-solving" all that much, actually...

Yes, yes! Ti alone cannot provide enough stimulation. It has to be in cooperation of both Ti-Ne functions. This is because functions do not act separately and are actually only abstractions to help identify observed cognitions. TiNe = X(one dimension).

The problem with "school-math" is that there is more Si-Ti involved. You have to be aware of the situation and you have to repetitively solve problems based on known methods. You don't have any chance for creation because your forced to be base it all on tradition. Unless of course, your highly skilled[learned and innate] and can formulate solutions in just a blink of an eye.

But that's my theory based on my personal self. Ti has never done it for me, it always had to have qualities of TiNe----and a specific amount for each. I'm thinking a pinch of Si, a spoonful of Ti and plate of Ne. But your not me; no one else is you.

 

[Ermine]

aww..... well, I guess something about us had to be directly opposite eventually.

*sniffles*

Not necessarily, though. You are a couple years older than me, and in a couple years, I suspect I will be even more into math and science than I am now (the more I learn about it beyond the high school level, the more interested I get). Just arriving at the same destination from different points.

 

[TruthSeeker]

My bad! After some more self-reflection (and an analysis courtesy of Adymus) I have discovered I am actually an INFP with an unusually well-developed Te. So I guess a poor command of logic would make sense...

 

[Words]

My bad! After some more self-reflection (and an analysis courtesy of Adymus) I have discovered I am actually an INFP with an unusually well-developed Te. So I guess a poor command of logic would make sense...

Wow. It seems like, nowadays, many people are with "unusually" expressed Inferior Functions.

But then with a "well-developed" Te, one would wonder why it resulted into a "poor command" of logic.

I have met a significant number of INFP who excel in math. And strangely even, I have attached the concept of INFP to said subject. And they didn't necessarily have to be "Te-faced".

 

[TruthSeeker]

Wow. It seems like, nowadays, many people are with "unusually" expressed Inferior Functions.

I honestly can't blame you for having that reaction. It's true; no one likes to think they are underdeveloped. I was just quoting what Adymus said. Not to use an argument from authority or anything.

I could definitely imagine an INFP who excelled in math (as I said, in Grade 9 I was close to the top of the class) but remember it's still going to be draining, which means it's easy to lose interest and, thus, fail (or can Fi find a way of doing math)?

 

[IfloatTHRUlife]

I wouldnt worry myself, i kind of get the impression you are more ammused by the thought of your INTP like tendencies, like mentioning your being late all the time. I personally see this as a subtle hint that you really are an intp, of course that is just speculation.

As for not being able to do math problems, it doesnt mean you were mistyped. Not all Intps are mathematicians. I see it to be pretty tedious and normally shrug off math as drudgery, like you, i work in words. I dont see this as a downfall, i see it as a lack of interest, early on in my time in school i saw the simplicity of making the small jumps they introduced each year so i pretty much stopped doing most of my homework etc. around the 6th grade, only doing what i wanted to, and math was my most hated class simply due to the repetition, it literally sucks the life from me, i was the only person i knew that slept that often in class in the 6th grade. That doesnt mean i cant do math though, i am actually pretty good at it to an extent. But enough about me, on to the little example i wanted to state when i first read through, An interesting fact is that Einstein was not exactly a great mathematician, i certainly say his ability far surpasses mine of course but, in reality he might have hated it just as much as me, but he needed it, it was the only way he could prove his theories, im sure in his head he despised the fact he had his simple overall idea devised in his head and he truely knew he was right but he was forced to go through all that trial and error for years to get his calculations and formulas to the point that they were precise and that there would be no disputing his theory. Fun facts over, BED TIME Zzzzzzz

 

[TruthSeeker]

I wouldnt worry myself, i kind of get the impression you are more ammused by the thought of your INTP like tendencies, like mentioning your being late all the time. I personally see this as a subtle hint that you really are an intp, of course that is just speculation.

As for not being able to do math problems, it doesnt mean you were mistyped. Not all Intps are mathematicians. I see it to be pretty tedious and normally shrug off math as drudgery, like you, i work in words. I dont see this as a downfall, i see it as a lack of interest, early on in my time in school i saw the simplicity of making the small jumps they introduced each year so i pretty much stopped doing most of my homework etc. around the 6th grade, only doing what i wanted to, and math was my most hated class simply due to the repetition, it literally sucks the life from me, i was the only person i knew that slept that often in class in the 6th grade. That doesnt mean i cant do math though, i am actually pretty good at it to an extent. But enough about me, on to the little example i wanted to state when i first read through, An interesting fact is that Einstein was not exactly a great mathematician, i certainly say his ability far surpasses mine of course but, in reality he might have hated it just as much as me, but he needed it, it was the only way he could prove his theories, im sure in his head he despised the fact he had his simple overall idea devised in his head and he truely knew he was right but he was forced to go through all that trial and error for years to get his calculations and formulas to the point that they were precise and that there would be no disputing his theory. Fun facts over, BED TIME Zzzzzzz

Thanks (I'm starting to get the impression math is actually more of an ST thing, not an NT thing). But like I said, I may well give math a second chance someday.

 

[Razare]

TruthSeeker, you should stick with this forum, even though you're an INFP. INTP's need some other perspectives and yours has generally always been top-notch.

 

[TruthSeeker]

TruthSeeker, you should stick with this forum, even though you're an INFP. INTP's need some other perspectives and yours has generally always been top-notch.

Awww...thanks Razare! Glad to hear you've appreciated what I had to say. (this forum has no hug smiley

)

Yeah, I'm planning on sticking around. The INFP forum looks pretty sparse (I get the feeling it's new?) and I'm not a big fan of the "hugeness" of Personality Cafe. I've always liked the feel of this forum...there's something "cozy" about it...large enough to be interesting and active, but small enough for there to still be intimacy. And unlike some other forums (INTP central *cough* *cough*), not everyone here is an asshole.

PS. Your posts are always very insightful as well.

 

[fullerene]

The old (bigger) INFP forum got hacked and irrecoverably deleted, and most of the INFPs (for whatever-the-fuck reason) went to Personality Cafe. Some did make a new INFP forum, but I don't know how it's doing and nobody's mentioned it.

I knew an INFP mathematician, once, and I do still have an ENFP friend who's very good at it. The INFP (math major) actually said he thought math lay in the Intuitive domain more than it did the Thinker's.

Maybe we should adopt the INFJs monkey-smileys? Then you could do one of:

 

[Razare]

INFJ monkey smileys!!!

Then they could war with the Spartans.