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INTP Sexual Orientation

PhoenixRising

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I've been contemplating lately the psychological causality of sexual orientation. I am unsure if there are universal elements to the specific origins of this preference, but I think it's likely. Of course, it could be that the formation of this functionality in the mind is mainly based on nurture, but I'm curious if sexual orientation has any tie to psychological type.

It seems to me that one's awareness and acceptance of instinct within them self has a lot to do with their sexual orientation. One who suppresses their human nature in order to function within the parameters of society's expectations may more likely be heterosexual, or at least monogamous. On the other hand, one who recognizes the inevitable nature of attraction, and therefore accepts it in them self as part of being human, is more likely to be authentic about their sexual preferences.

This is just a theory, but I believe it's likely that all of us have some degree of attraction to both sexes (what is termed bisexuality) whether we acknowledge this or not. It also seems reasonable to deduce that those personalities who tend to seek for the reality of things (the stereotype of INTPs) would tend to be more aware of the plurality of their sexuality, if this is indeed the case.

So I'm curious - if you are willing to share/discuss - what sexual orientation do you find yourself gravitating toward, and do you think this has anything to do with your psychological type? If so, how does your psychological type determine parameters that factor into the phenomenon of orientation?
 

Jennywocky

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I consider myself het overall, but not extreme -- probably a 1 on the Kinsey scale.

I think types that are more aware and honest about their in-the-moment feelings are more liable to stray outside social convention, since they're aware of their "inner drummer" and follow it. Also, those for whom social conventions do not matter -- the "no boundaries" people, or boundaries dervived by other means than social tradition -- are more likely to follow other paths.

For me, I've got a bit of aspect of both; I'm honest with myself about what I might be feeling, have some awareness, and I also don't really care what society says if it doesn't make sense to me.

At the same time, I don't like to deal with society's baggage, and since it's not a huge desire for me, I don't consider it worth pursuing same-sex relationships, it just complicates life. But more important, I've had a few situations where I did dabble with it, and it just didn't work for me long-term, so I'm pretty happy describing myself as a 1.
 

PhoenixRising

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I actually hadn't heard of the Kinsey scale before you posted this >.< But I relate with your description, I think I'd probably be a 1 as well, or perhaps a 2.
 

Fukyo

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I couple of years ago I heard of an interesting study by Meredith Chivers, in which she proposes that women as opposed to men experience category non-specific arousal. I'll quote how this interview puts it.

psychologist Meredith Chivers sat her human subjects in a La-Z-Boy before various pornographic clips and monitored their reactions via plethysmographs connected to the genitals and capable of measuring blood flow and swelling. The participants were also given keyboards and asked to rate their arousal. Chivers’s findings showed that the men, by and large, responded in “category specific” ways—that is, straight men typically reacted to images of women and heterosexual sex, while gay men were moved oppositely. And across the board, the data from the plethysmographs was consistent with the men’s subjective claims.

For the women, the study yielded wildly different results. Irrespective of sexual orientation and reported levels of excitement, the women showed physical arousal when watching men with women, women with women, men with men, and even mating bonobo apes. The results suggest a discord between how women’s minds and bodies register desire, and represent a massive departure from our familiar social scripts.

The interesting thing was that the female participants maintained subjectively, that they have category specific arousal.

That said I know I male who might have something interesting to say on this topic. I'll make sure to link him the thread when I see him.
 

PhoenixRising

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Strange that female subjects believed themselves to have a specific orientation. Perhaps there is some sort of disassociation that happens for females regarding their sexual instincts? Or perhaps the non-specific focus of their sexuality makes it so their conscious views are what mainly directs their behavior..

*curious*
 

Vrecknidj

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A significant number of female-female pairs exist in other animals. Often this facilitates the rearing of young, but not always. In some non-human primates, female-female pairings appear to be for, among other things, pleasure.

I don't recall there being all that many male-male pairs in other animals. There are probably some, I don't know.

As far as the original post, and my own response to that, I'd say that I'm probably also a 1 on the Kinsey scale. Marriage has been working for me for more than two decades, and, frankly, a single, stable relationship is worth a lot to me (and, for all the work that's required, it seems to be no more than the work I see others putting into serial relationships). It could have been the case that I'd ended up with another man, but, probably wasn't likely. While I was never one I'd describe as a homophobe (though I find the word itself a bit of a misnomer), I was probably closer to a 0 on that scale in my early 20s, when I did marry. So, for whatever that's worth...
 

TimeAsylums

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/yawn...

Type/sexuality disinterests me.

I've read several articles like the one Fukyo shared, most seem to want to link it to bio/psycho/evolution, so ok.

Anyway, back to type/sexuality, including culture, sure correlations that some types more "open" to experiences than others, I have no specific correlation nor expect to find one for people that are actually homosexual/heterosexual/the billion other ways of being sexual so i don't offend people, and a certain type, just those that are possibly willing to acknowledge it and how they are going to go about it.

I'm not an INTP, ENTP tho, so i'll share. Close nuff' right?

I have no concrete views on attraction, I'm attracted to who i am. I've been with girls and guys, transexuals/whatever (sorry if my definitions are skewed or something) interest me but I've never met one. I'm truly open, just whatever attracts me. The thing is however, I could never "love" another guy, (oh, I guess I should mention I'm a guy), I'm all for homoerotic/homosexual stuff, but I could never enter into a "feeling/emotional" relationship with one, why? I don't know, because I can't. So I don't know what category of identification that falls. but uh yeah
 

redbaron

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I'm open to the idea of same-sex relations, however I'm just not attracted to men. I don't really care about social convention, it's not really a deterrent, I just don't have the attraction.
 

Fukyo

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Auburn

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I find this such a curious labyrinth. I haven't come across a theory that adequately captures the nature of sexuality. There are so many factors involved - for a while I used the following chart as a rough, incomplete guide of some of the key variables. I dunno if I'd use it anymore though.
[bimgx=280]http://www.ftmtransition.com/transition/faq/spectrum.gif[/bimgx]
As for type and sex, considering that the sexual apparatus predates the neocortex by millenia, i would be very surprised if there was a direct and strong relationship. They appear to be their own separate systems to me, which overlap and affect each other, though. So there's probably an aggregated *correlation* based simply on how the psychology of a certain type handles circumstances (of which they and their own sexuality is one).

It's like how I've seen an incredibly higher tilt toward Ne-leads claiming they're bisexual. The receptiveness and openness of Ne -- which in its most pure form strives for the complete assimilation of all possibilities at the rejection of none -- would account for some of this ("I like both!"), and it's also easy for them to convince themselves of an idea at any particular point in their life, only to challenge it later. So whilst they may view themselves bisexual one year, the next it may be something else; as it's just their process of experimentation doing what it does. Similar or opposite things happen with other types.

It's possible that a fixation of Si to an orientation (whether to straight, bi, or gay) as a concept, can be strong enough to overrule whatever may have been their natural inclination. Or Fe "social-yielding" to the climate of its generation, can do something similar.

From my limited experience, I think that Fi/Te users are less likely to overrule their sexual nature with the imposing of a psychological idea contrary to it. Just statistically; not an absolute. And this would make sense considering Fi's connection and alignment to the inner body/mind/heart and (when operating properly) judgment via using the body/mind/heart as the standard.

While Se/Ni can be more keen to sense its own body's sensations and impulses, it would simply augment whatever sexual orientation they have; so I don't think this one factors too much into the orientation. I dunno if it's fair to say that they'd be more sexually active either, but the theme would be more pressing in their psyche as a reality (than to an Ne/Si user) rather than a concept. Ne/Si's proxy-intake of reality causes a different experience of things, including one's own sensations of which arousal is one, but I'm not sure how this plays out exactly.


 

TimeAsylums

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It's like how I've seen an incredibly higher tilt toward Ne-leads claiming they're bisexual. The receptiveness and openness of Ne -- which in its most pure form strives for the complete assimilation of all possibilities at the rejection of none -- would account for some of this ("I like both!"), and it's also easy for them to convince themselves of an idea at any particular point in their life, only to challenge it later. So whilst they may view themselves bisexual one year, the next it may be something else; as it's just their process of experimentation doing what it does. Similar or opposite things happen with other types.

^

//also agree with 100% of everything else u said on the functions. Also fair to say about the Se and possibility/correlation hypersexual, more sexual activity.
 

PhoenixRising

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As for type and sex, considering that the sexual apparatus predates the neocortex by millenia, i would be very surprised if there was a direct and strong relationship. They appear to be their own separate systems to me, which overlap and affect each other, though. So there's probably an aggregated *correlation* based simply on how the psychology of a certain type handles circumstances (of which they and their own sexuality is one).

It seems you are approaching the question from a similar perspective to the one I've been contemplating (no surprise there, being how involved with CognitiveType I've been ^^). I don't believe that one's type predetermines their sexual identity, but it's very likely that the resulting perspective on the world caused by psychological type affects it strongly.

Just as with any component of the personality, there is also the factor of gender, upbringing, cultural environment, etc. that factor into the results. I was curious, though, about a correlation between those types who are often labeled as truth seekers and actualization of the true nature of sexuality. I was also curious if, among those who are honest with themselves about this topic, there was a tendency to be attracted to both sexes to some extent. Thus far, it seems like there could be a correlation between type and sexual honesty, however it appears that females may be more likely to have plural attraction than males. Even something showing definite trends could only be treated as a statistic. There is so much room for variation in the human psyche!
 

Architect

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I don't think type has an influence on sexual preference, aside from the obvious point that some types are more sexually adventurous than others.

It also seems reasonable to deduce that those personalities who tend to seek for the reality of things (the stereotype of INTPs) would tend to be more aware of the plurality of their sexuality, if this is indeed the case.

Sure, as an intellectual exercise, but when puberty hits I don't see how that would stack up against your hormones or sexual orientation, which we don't know the cause of yet.

FWIW I've always been firmly hetero, never had an interest in men.
 

shoeless

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i agree that i don't believe type has an influence on sexual orientation. honestly i don't see how it could. i just can't find the association between personality and sexual orientation in my brain.

that said, i would describe myself as "pretty much mostly heterosexual", or between bisexual and heterosexual, so like a 2 on the kinsey scale. and there are some days where i am far more attracted to women than men, and vice-versa. if i were to be in a situation where i was honestly discussing my orientation with another person, i would refer to myself as bisexual, for simplicity's sake.

sexual fluidity seems to be a huge part of the female psyche, moreso than it is in men, for some reason. once again, this doesn't relate to personality much. once again, i just don't see how it could.
 

crippli

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I separate this as if one is interested in the physical features, or of personality. One will have a preference. It's easy to find out. Observe a feminine woman, feminine man, masculine man and masculine woman. Do introversion and see what/if any makes your blood boil.
Sexuality makes sense to me only on a physical level. Becomes too complicated if one take personality into account. The above should indicate if physiology or personality is a preference. If the former, classify yourself according to the categories. If the latter then you can ignore the former, and just say lover of humans or something. I belong to the latter category. One can classify oneself through the same pattern through the abstract, but it's not common. I will ignore this aspect in this post and concentrate on the physical.

As this tend to be an aspect that have impact on someones life, it is not far fetched to link this to type. Mainly that of S vs N. To a degree F vs T. Meaning that for a Ti dominant it could overrule the N vs S aspect. Personally I'm not fond of this theory, as fMRI indicates that sexuality and identity/type are located on separate places on the brain, so except through connectedness by white matter, they could be entities on their own. Similar research also indicates that through stimuli several parts of the brain light up simultaneously. So separating brain parts may not make much sense in practice, then the above theory may be valid. Meaning that type and sexuality is linked. And one can type through sexuality as one type through a fancy for physical sport.
 

BigApplePi

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Attraction? Some people use that word. What kind of attraction? Love? Physical? Intellectual? Also what does what is inside me have to do with what is outside me? If I'm hungry or thirsty, that's inside me. Won't anything that satisfies hunger or thirst do?

I propose that sexuality is totally hereditary. I propose sexual orientation is TOTALLY environmental. I propose this is true whether it is Hanukkah or Ramadan or even Christmas one of which could be the case today.
 

PhoenixRising

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I separate this as if one is interested in the physical features, or of personality. One will have a preference. It's easy to find out. Observe a feminine woman, feminine man, masculine man and masculine woman. Do introversion and see what/if any makes your blood boil.
Sexuality makes sense to me only on a physical level. Becomes too complicated if one take personality into account. The above should indicate if physiology or personality is a preference. If the former, classify yourself according to the categories. If the latter then you can ignore the former, and just say lover of humans or something. I belong to the latter category. One can classify oneself through the same pattern through the abstract, but it's not common. I will ignore this aspect in this post and concentrate on the physical.

As this tend to be an aspect that have impact on someones life, it is not far fetched to link this to type. Mainly that of S vs N. To a degree F vs T. Meaning that for a Ti dominant it could overrule the N vs S aspect. Personally I'm not fond of this theory, as fMRI indicates that sexuality and identity/type are located on separate places on the brain, so except through connectedness by white matter, they could be entities on their own. Similar research also indicates that through stimuli several parts of the brain light up simultaneously. So separating brain parts may not make much sense in practice, then the above theory may be valid. Meaning that type and sexuality is linked. And one can type through sexuality as one type through a fancy for physical sport.

Lover of humans, I really like this term ^^

You have a point about classifying sexuality in concrete (physical) and abstract ways. This is interesting to ponder, in light of the influence one's type has on their likes, interests, etc.

I would describe myself as sapiosexual, tbh. This is interesting, being that I am Ti dominant. The more intelligent and open minded someone is, the more enamored I become :P The ability to have an in-depth intellectual conversation, especially one that includes opinions based on a solid line of deduction, is something I highly value in another. This is an example of what I meant by type being related to sexual orientation, although with your comment I've realized gender orientation may be secondary to more subjective preferences (at least in some cases).


@BigApplePi

I propose that sexuality is totally hereditary. I propose sexual orientation is TOTALLY environmental.

Can you expand on these theories? I'm curious about your reasoning =)
 

BigApplePi

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I propose that sexuality is totally hereditary. I propose sexual orientation is TOTALLY environmental.
Can you expand on these theories? I'm curious about your reasoning
Expansion:

The Si or physical sexuality of sex is our bodies. Though we can be aware of different aspects of that, the package doesn't change much except for adolescence and such.

The Fe part of sexuality is brought out by interaction with others. Think of a person blind and deaf from birth. What sexual orientations are forthcoming there? Has anyone studied the imprinting aspect of sexuality? What if the rising sexual interest of pre-adolescents is highly suggestible to the first thing that comes along thus sending two siblings in different directions? This would be hard to study but I can't believe with all the interest sex has that it hasn't been done in profusion.

Expanding further this idea, consider taste. Some people like broccoli; some dislike it, some just accept it. But how much deviation is there? Environment affects this. Why would sex be much different?

Got me started. More things to consider and compare: personality typing; males versus females. The literature speaks of male and female differences ... some mentioned in this thread. How has the sexual revolution brought males and females sexual behavior/orientations to be more alike? If a difference is males correlate to thinking and females to feeling as a difference, what does that do to feeling males and thinking females?

That's as far as my "reasoning" goes. The rest is intuition. I suppose this can be arguing with ... especially if any definitions aren't carefully drawn.

PhoenixRising. Aren't you now sorry you asked?:confused::D:)
 

crippli

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Lover of humans, I really like this term ^^
Cool. Feel free to use it.


I would describe myself as sapiosexual, tbh. This is interesting, being that I am Ti dominant. The more intelligent and open minded someone is, the more enamored I become :P
This reads to me as a measure. To much more can be too much, right? :)

BigApplePi
From nature stuff is obvious. And requires little else but reasonable eyesight or only the sensation of touch to succeed at the unspoken commands. This goes into there. Is the basic. Like drinking water and gnawing on some root. But one can make the dish as complicated as one wish. With wine, steamed vegetables, Caviar. Strawberrys with cream and dark chocolate. At this point maybe change to champagne.

It is only your fantasy that set the limit :) So the answer to the OP is yes, personality will make a difference.
 

PhoenixRising

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Expansion:

The Si or physical sexuality of sex is our bodies. Though we can be aware of different aspects of that, the package doesn't change much except for adolescence and such.

The Fe part of sexuality is brought out by interaction with others. Think of a person blind and deaf from birth. What sexual orientations are forthcoming there? Has anyone studied the imprinting aspect of sexuality? What if the rising sexual interest of pre-adolescents is highly suggestible to the first thing that comes along thus sending two siblings in different directions? This would be hard to study but I can't believe with all the interest sex has that it hasn't been done in profusion.

Expanding further this idea, consider taste. Some people like broccoli; some dislike it, some just accept it. But how much deviation is there? Environment affects this. Why would sex be much different?

Got me started. More things to consider and compare: personality typing; males versus females. The literature speaks of male and female differences ... some mentioned in this thread. How has the sexual revolution brought males and females sexual behavior/orientations to be more alike? If a difference is males correlate to thinking and females to feeling as a difference, what does that do to feeling males and thinking females?

That's as far as my "reasoning" goes. The rest is intuition. I suppose this can be arguing with ... especially if any definitions aren't carefully drawn.

PhoenixRising. Aren't you now sorry you asked?:confused::D:)

o.o

So sorry I haven't gotten to replying to this until now! I wanted to compose a reply when I had the time to put some meaningful thought into it..

I find what you've said here interesting. I agree that the physical aspect of sexuality has a lot to do with the primitive responses of the body (physical = corporeal). However, as I understand the functionality of Si, I'm unsure that it has much to do with sex drive directly. Si is the worldview "map" that Ne's abstract perceptions are plotted into. So, I think it makes more sense for Si to be involved by defining one's taste rather than being responsible for the (somewhat involuntary) physical responses.

It is curious to puzzle about how the psychology of sex would develop in a person who didn't have the sense of sight or hearing. I think it's probable that arousal would occur in response to touch in that case.. although it may be more limited than for other people?

I think you're right that imprinting has a lot to do with one's idea of attractiveness. This seems pretty obvious, as people will often marry someone who looks/acts like a close family member or similar to them self (or, in some cases, like a lost love from the past). This is only one of the ways that environment could factor in, I'm sure there are countless effects!

As far as the psychological tendencies of males and females go, I've actually done quite a bit of research into Jung's theories on this topic. Although rationality is a trait associated with males, and emotionality with females, objective observation would suggest that this division is unrealistic. Jung asserts that it is less derived from true observations and more derived from archetypal ideals. That is, there are ancient stereotypes of the sexes that exist in the human unconscious and influence our expectations. This does, indeed, effect attraction - as females tend to be more attracted to seemingly rational males, and males to seemingly emotional females. This bias shows up in society. Culture differentiates things quite a bit, but in general in the West, "acting sexy" means seeming emotionally vulnerable or flirty for women, but seeming cool, badass and collected for men.
 

kora

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Used to think I was a 3 but I'm probably a 2, had one experience with a girl and found it fun, I think I end up with a higher quota of guys because I'm rather shy and due to social stigma and such things, same sex experiences are harder to get, I don't have the courage to hit on girls I find attractive as I usually assume they aren't attracted to me, so I brush it off. I find that I am usually attracted to people who have elements of the gender opposite to them though, it's ambiguous and sexy, and it shows an open mind.

If (and only if) one takes the MBTI in any way seriously, then you have to admit that it has some kind of effect on sexuality, as sexuality is intrinsically linked to your personality (strongly disagree with shoeless) . An INTP would be more "relaxed" and curious about transgressing social norms than say...an ISTJ. Which means that they would be more likely to pursue feelings of same sex attractions within themselves instead of burying them. I can't help but see the link between my bi sexuality (or the wish to explore it) and the fact that I'm determined to be open minded and wish to be rock'in'roll about social values :D (well, it's that and some weird form of narcissism)

Also there's the whole gender role thing which very likely affects types, T being an attitude more associated with men and F with women (by cultural and not physiological effect I should think). I'm extremely attracted to rational seemingly "cold" and detached people. Am obviously aware of all the stupid arbitrary assumptions I am making with the MBTI, which is in no way scientific sooooo... Perhaps I'm bullshitting and ought to stop writing. Interesting thread though.

EDIT: I would say that your sexual preference depends on how much you apply gender roles and what you think they should be, and from then on it's all about whether you prefer to be dominated or submissive (or both) Power and stuff. Something like that. Also it can definitely change throughout your life, sexuality is fluid, just like the rest of us.

Edit2: seems to be quite a few people here who have tested or engage in het and hom experiences. And practically no one who is entirely against the idea. Oh you kinky INTP's :D
 

Cherry Cola

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T in women = slightly (and I really do mean slightly) higher chance of being gay

F in men = slightly higher chance of being gay

Is my bet, I believe there's been studies showing that effeminate men are more often gay than the average Joe, likewise for tomboys. And those qualities probably correlate with T/F in turn.

Furthermore, N might correlate with openness and thus with a higher prevalence of same sex experiences in N's, but I doubt that has jack to do with actual orientation.
 

samjonathan

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T in women = slightly (and I really do mean slightly) higher chance of being gay

F in men = slightly higher chance of being gay

Is my bet, I believe there's been studies showing that effeminate men are more often gay than the average Joe, likewise for tomboys. And those qualities probably correlate with T/F in turn.

I think that I read somewhere (no idea where, and it could be bullshit) that even if a gay man is a T, they have stronger F functions than their straight counterparts. I'm not sure if the inverse was said to be true for gay women.
 

Hawkeye

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I've always felt like an outsider regarding relationships and sex. I've never related to the banter of who would hypothetically bang/*add fetish of choice here* who in a room.

I guess I have a low libido :/
 

kora

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@PhoenixRising

also frequently describe myself as sapiosexual. :D
 

Ex-User (9062)

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This is just a theory, but I believe it's likely that all of us have some degree of attraction to both sexes (what is termed bisexuality) whether we acknowledge this or not.

That degree is called friendship.
Evolutionary psychology can explain this relationship.

True, i am attracted to certain aspects of the personality of certain males,
but that doesn't mean i contemplate the idea of sticking some parts of my body into them.
I also wouldn't feel too well around males who i would have to expect to stick their body parts into me as soon as they get the chance.

My theory is that homosexuality is a mental illness.
Don't bother to dig up examples of homosexual relationships in nature,
they are all based on animals living in captivity a.k.a. unnatural environments.
Our civilization is not too far away from this quality, so i am not surprised that homosexuality is rampant.
I don't want to blame anyone.
I also realize that these people want to feel equal.
But the fact is that they are not and no legislation
can make a bird with crippled wings fly.
 

redbaron

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I had a discussion about this recently and now I'm less sure than I was before. Sexuality is Confucius.
 

Words

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Your forgetting the presence of asexuals. Also, doesn't that go against reproduction? I don't see any evolutionary advantage in bisexuality.

Social structures don't just appear out of nowhere. I think Heterosexual relationships are too widespread and global to be anything but natural. Products of traditional institutions such as masculinity/femininity are not as defining. No reason to rely on nature as justification for equality though.
 

Ziast

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I identify as an Aromantic Asexual.

I don't think there is any correlation between Type and Sexuality, but type may affect how one acts on their sexuality and views it. I imagine P types would be more open to bisexuality or homosexuality, where as SJs would be reluctant to identify as anything other than hetero. That doesn't change what your body is telling you. Being a strong introvert probably does not help my aromanticism, but even if I was more outgoing, I would probably feel the same. Would I find myself a partner? Maybe, but most likely only to fit into the constructed norms. As a INTP, I don't care too much to fit in.

I am more of the mind that sexuality is hereditary, at the very least through epigenetics. In my own family, both my parents(ISTJ/ISFJ) are sexual romantics, but not obnoxiously so. My eldest brother(INTJ) could possibly be a demi/asexual romantic, however, my sister(EXTX?) is very sexual.

I sort of lost where I was going with this, so take what you will.
 

kora

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@Salmoneus and others

First of all, homosexuality is not present in animals only under lab settings and unnatural environments. it occurs between wild species as well. In fact it occurs a lot between them (see the list in link)

Secondly, there's a theory that it does actually have an evolutionary purpose, as it seems to occur more frequently in crowded communities, natures' way of slowing down overpopulation and balancing ecosystems? The frequency of homosexual behavior in rats goes up as they get more crowded in the cage. I don't see how something that is observable in so many different species can be seen as "unnatural" as this word either means "man made and artificial" (which homosexuality is not) or contrary to the ordinary course of nature (which it isn't either, it's just less common than heterosexuality, it's always existed though).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

Saying homosexuality is a mental disease and calling it unnatural is not only wrong, but also stigmatizes an already culturally repressed minority. Please refrain from doing so...
 

freedomchaser24

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Could try taking a poll with personality type and sexual preference. Don't know if it's been done before, I was more curious about type and mental illness.
Anyways, I'm INTP and lesbian
Good luck crunching the data together.
 

samjonathan

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@Salmoneus and others

Saying homosexuality is a mental disease and calling it unnatural is not only wrong, but also stigmatizes an already culturally repressed minority. Please refrain from doing so...

glad someone called that one out...
 

Ex-User (9062)

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Sorry, not very convincing.
I know that there is some bisexuality and same-sex coupling opportunism going on, but these behaviours are not resembling human interactions.
You are right about population pressure though.
Still, it is an exception and not a rule.
But is homosexuality in humans really a population control mechanism,
when in recent times this system has been hacked by surrogate motherhood?

Saying homosexuality is a mental disease and calling it unnatural is not only wrong, but also stigmatizes an already culturally repressed minority. Please refrain from doing so...

Hm, how comes that all gay men i know have very deeply engrained father issues?
 

Jennywocky

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Hm, how comes that all gay men i know have very deeply engrained father issues?

Ummm... usually because the dad is pissed off or ashamed that his son is gay, doesn't like to bond with the same things that he expected from a son (for some), or feels like he's a bad father because of his gay child, and males seem to have more trouble directly perceiving their own emotions and talking about them? So it all festers or comes out in other ways?

Maybe some gay people -- just like straights -- have issues with their parents, true; but it's a dynamic evolving situation which happens to have as one part of it a gay child, and there are many other factors contributing to outcome.

You might as well just assume that minorities who happen to be defensive are deficient in some way and it's all their own fault, without considering the impact of being a harassed and ridiculed minority in a broader society and what survival mechanisms come into play.

If it matters, I have some gay friends (male and female) who have issues with parents and others who have wonderful relationships with both parents. But I can say that about my straight friends too.
 

Jennywocky

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By deeply engrained i meant that they have existed since before the formation of a sexual identity.

You are looking at the twig of the tree rather than the root in your second and third train of thought.

A good relationship in adulthood is just the result of a reconciliation process.
What matters is the childhood.

http://www.gmufourthestate.com/homosexuality_is_a_mental_illness2

Looking at twigs? I'm actually talking "real hands-on experience" and not theory, looking at people I've known from birth, and my views have evolved over many years based on observation and life understanding I've gathered along the one. At one time, I was probably more in your camp, when it was all theory and before I had real experience.

But I'm getting the feeling you've already got your gut instincts on the matter and digging up articles like this is meant to support those instincts, so... enjoy.
 

TimeAsylums

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Looking at twigs? I'm actually talking "real hands-on experience" and not theory, looking at people I've known from birth, and my views have evolved over many years based on observation and life understanding I've gathered along the one. At one time, I was probably more in your camp, when it was all theory and before I had real experience.

But I'm getting the feeling you've already got your gut instincts on the matter and digging up articles like this is meant to support those instincts, so... enjoy.

LOL.

Exp>Theory every time yo.

and i aint even a sensor -<< jk jk jk
 

QuickTwist

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I've had experiences with both but I prefer women because they just have something that guys don't have.

As far as type goes... IDK. There are some pretty strange people out there and their sexual orientation sometime has nothing to do with what you would expect; others, well...
 

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@Jennywocky

Whoa whoa whoa, hold your horses.
Something's got your blood boiling, but i fail to realize just what it is.

I do enjoy digging up these articles.
What i want to do is have a critical look at the matter at hand.
The consensus never interested me very much.
Everyone knows that and it's boring.
What excites me is finding out more, or changing perspective.

This is an article that deals with the pathological aspect of homosexuality:
Why Isn’t Homosexuality Considered A Disorder
On The Basis Of Its Medical Consequences?


by LifeSiteNews.com
Thu Nov 30 11:15 AM EST
By Kathleen Melonakos, M.A., R.N.

I worked as an RN for several years during the eighties and nineties
at Stanford University Medical Center, where I saw some of the damage
homosexuals do to their bodies with some of their sexual practices.
As a result of that eye-opening experience, I much admire the work of
NARTH in the research and treatment of homosexuality.

I have long been concerned about the serious medical consequences which result

from the gay-affirming attitudes that predominate in the San Francisco Bay Area.
For example, I knew personally a prominent dermatologist, a dentist, an

engineer, and a hairdresser that died in their mid-forties of
infectious diseases related to their homosexual behavior patterns.

I know of many others that have died young as a result of living a gay lifestyle.

The co-author of my own medical reference book,
Saunders Pocket Reference for Nurses, was the head of the surgery

department at Stanford.
She related case histories of homosexuals needing emergency surgery due to
"fisting," "playing with toys," (inserting objects into the rectum) and other bizarre acts.


I am certain—in light of my clinical experience, and since doing considerable

amount of studying about it since that time—that homosexuality is neither
normal nor benign; rather, it is a lethal behavioral addiction as
Dr. Jeffrey Satinover outlines in his book,

Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth.[ii]


As far as I know, there is no other group of people in the
United States that dies of infectious diseases in their
mid-forties except practicing homosexuals.
This, to me, is tragic, when we know that homosexuality can be prevented,

in many cases, or substantially healed in adulthood when
there is sufficient motivation and help.


I now live in Delaware and work in conjunction with the
Delaware Family Foundation to inform the public about

homosexual issues.
We are debating gay activists who want to add "sexual discrimination" to our anti-discrimination code.

In trying to make the case that homosexuality is not healthy and should not be
encouraged,
we come up against the fact that neither the American Psychiatric Association,
nor the American Psychological Association recognize it as a disorder.

Our opponents say we are using "scare tactics."


Dr. Satinover brilliantly laid out in his book,
Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth the solid, irrefutable evidence that

there are lethal consequences of engaging in the defining features
of male homosexuality—that is, promiscuity and anal intercourse.


It doesn't take someone trained in medicine to recognize that, as
Brian Camenker of the Parent Right's Coalition said

on national TV,
"A lifetime of anal sex does not do great things for the body."
Brian also said,
"As troubling as that statement sounds, there is no logical argument against it."
Thus, even lay people recognize what should be obvious,

especially to those trained in medicine, and who know the basic facts about
homosexuality.

It seems to me that medical professionals should be more aware and concerned
about the consequences of habitually engaging in promiscuous anal intercourse,
and other oral-anal practices of active homosexuals.[iiia]


The risk of anal cancer soars for those engaging in anal intercourse.
According to one report, it rises by an astounding 4000%,
and doubles again for those who are HIV positive.[iiib]


Can anyone refute that anal intercourse tears the rectal lining of the receptive partner,
regardless of whether a condom is worn, and the subsequent contact with fecal matter
leads to a host of diseases?


Diseases to which active homosexuals are vulnerable can be classified as follows:

Classical sexually transmitted diseases
(gonorrhea, infections with Chlamydia trachomatis, syphilis, herpes simplex infections,
genital warts, pubic lice, scabies);
enteric diseases
(infections with Shigella species, Campylobacter jejuni,

Entamoeba histolytica, Giardia lamblia, ["gay bowel disease"],
Hepatitis A, B, C, D, and cytomegalovirus);
trauma

(related to and/or resulting in fecal incontinence, hemorroids, anal fissure,
foreign bodies lodged in the rectum, rectosigmoid tears,
allergic proctitis, penile edema, chemical sinusitis, inhaled nitrite burns,
and sexual assault of the male patient);
and the acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS).[iv]


Can anyone refute that increased morbidity and mortality is an unavoidable
result of male-with-male sex—not to mention the increased rates of
alcoholism, drug abuse, depression, suicide and other maladies that so often

accompany a homosexual lifestyle?[v]

People with this whole cluster of behavior patterns are somehow "normal"?


My primary question is: why isn't homosexuality considered a disorder on the
basis of its medical consequences alone?


Dr. Satinover and others have made a solid case for why homosexuality
parallels alcoholism as an unhealthy addiction.

It should have a parallel diagnosis.
There is a lot of literature, including on the NARTH website,
discussing the 1973 removal of homosexuality as a diagnosis.

The arguments against the change in diagnosis seem to center around "societal standards," moral relativism, "subjective distress" of the client, and whether or not there is
any objective standard for "psychological" normalcy
(for instance, the debate between Joseph Nicolosi and
Dr. Michael Wertheimer in
A Clash In Worldviews: An Interview with Dr. Michael Wertheimer).


While these considerations are important, it seems like we can set aside,
for the moment, the debate on whether homosexuality should be classified
as a developmental disorder.

Very simply, it seems, an objective person just looking at homosexuality's lifestyle consequences would have to classify it as some kind of pathology.

Does it or does it not lead to a dramatically shortened lifespan?
Studies say it does, some by as much as 40%;
the Cameron study being only one of many other

studies that suggest this.[vi]

Taken together, these studies establish that homosexuality is more deadly
than smoking, alcoholism, or drug addiction.

However, it appears that far too few physicians or other professionals are

making arguments in favor of homosexuality as a diagnosis based on
its adverse health consequences.


While doing research into the history of the 1973 decision to remove
homosexuality from the diagnostic manual of disorders,
I have been shocked to find out the specious reasoning upon which the decision
was based, and that qualified physicians have allowed the decision to stand.


On Feb. 5, 2002, I corresponded by e-mail with Dr. Robert Spitzer of the APA and
asked him to send me references for the position papers and studies upon which his
committee based its decision to remove the diagnosis.
He told me to read Ron Bayer's book,[vii] the
"closest thing to a position paper"
(American Journal of Psychiatry,130:11,1207-1216), and he said,
"There was no specific list of references, but what was influential too was the
Evelyn Hooker Rorshach study and the Eli Robins community study."[viii]


I have read many of the criticisms of the Hooker study—how respondents were

specifically selected rather than at random, and other methodological limitations.[ix]

Dr. Charles Socarides, who was also on the Task Force on Nomenclature,
informs us also that Spitzer was influenced by the Kinsey Report,
which was recognized as early as 1976 by "social progressives"
like Prof. Paul Robinson of Stanford as
"a pathetic manifestation of Kinsey's philosophical naivete..
a mechanical contrivance, which...bore little relation to reality,"[x]
and since has been discredited by the work of Judith Reisman and others.


It is clear that Dr. Socarides was right when he said that the decision to remove
homosexuality as a diagnosis
"involved the out-of-hand and peremptory disregard and dismissal
not only of hundreds of psychiatric and psychoanalytic research papers and reports,
but other serious studies by groups of psychiatrists, psychologists and

educators over the past seventy years..."[xi]


It appears even more obvious that the Task Force on Nomenclature cavalierly ignored
(and the APA's continue to ignore!) the substantial and unambiguous evidence that
homosexuality involves a life-threatening behavior with an addictive component which
has serious health implications.[xii]


That the APA's have escaped accountability for their lack of scientific and professional integrity is especially incredible since the advent of the AIDS epidemic.
There are currently an estimated 900,000 people in the United States that are

infected with the HIV virus, or 1 in 300 Americans.

Though there has been a decrease in AIDS deaths per year due to drug therapy,
(which costs an average of $12,000 per patient per year)
the rate of new infections per year has remained the same, at 40,000,
despite the twenty year "safe-sex" campaign.[xiii]


These facts demonstrate the failure of current policies in containing the AIDS epidemic.
While drug therapy will briefly extend the life of these patients, AIDS remains the fifth

leading cause of death among those aged 25-44, and 60% of new cases are contracted by
men who have sex with men.[xiv]

According to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC),

homosexual men are a thousand times more likely to contract AIDS
than the general heterosexual population[xv]


Dr. Satinover has said in an interview with NARTH:

"A recent article in a psychiatric publication informed
us that 30% of all 20-year-old homosexual men will be HIV
positive or dead by the age of thirty.
You would think that the objective, ethical approach would be:
let's use anything that works to try to take these people out of their posture of

risk.

If it means getting them to wear condoms fine.
If it
means getting them to give up anal intercourse, fine.
If it means getting them to give up homosexuality, fine.
But that last intervention is the one intervention that it absolutely taboo.


"There is no doubt that a cold, statistical analysis of this epidemic would
lead you to believe that this attitude of political correctness is killing
a substantial proportion of these people.
I think there is an element of denial, in the psychological sense, of what
gay-related illnesses really mean."[xvi]


It seems to me that the APA's should be aggressively pressed to recognize the facts
about the morbidity and mortality directly attributed to homosexuality,
or be exposed for the recklessly irresponsible "guardians of the public health"

they have become, at least on this issue.


When will doctors and other health care workers demand that
officers in the American Psychiatric Association respond to the clear evidence
in the following:


Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth:

the mortality rates listed in their own
"APA's Practical Guidelines for Treating Patients with
HIV/AIDS";[xvii]
and other important reports, such as the Monograph put out by
the Institute of Sexual Health,
Health Implications of Homosexuality?[xviii]


Lest we think that APA officers justify their neglect of medical consequences of
homosexuality on the basis that sexual orientation cannot be changed,
we note that Robert Spitzer acknowledged in his original 1973 position paper
on Nomenclature that
"modern methods of treatment enable a significant proportion of homosexuals
who wish to change their sexual orientation to do so."[xix]


He has now confirmed the fact that sexual orientation
can be changed with his recent study.[xx]

We know that changing sexual orientation only became "impossible" in

the nineties, as part of a political strategy by gay activists.[xxi]


Spitzer and his allies' rationale for removing homosexuality as a diagnosis in 1973
was that to be considered a psychiatric disorder,

"it must either regularly cause subjective distress, or regularly be associated
with some generalized impairment in social effectiveness or functioning....
Clearly homosexuality per se does not meet the requirements for a psychiatric

disorder, since, as noted above, many are quite satisfied with their
sexual orientation and demonstrate no generalized impairment in
social effectiveness or functioning." (Spitzer, et.al, p. 1215).


The Task Force's reasoning fails for several reasons.
First, even if we grant the validity of their stated criteria (which is questionable),
the fact that many homosexuals "are satisfied with their sexual orientation,"
fails to take into account the large number of homosexuals who are not satisfied
with their sexual orientation and who doexperience
"subjective distress and generalized impairment in social functioning."


The removal of the diagnosis is not just unfair,
but cruel to those who would seek treatment for their condition.


Secondly, there are unambiguous reasons to think that homosexuality per se
does cause "generalized impairment in social effectiveness or functioning."
If in fact it is a lethal addiction, and the many studies documenting the behavior

patterns of homosexuals are correct
(that show compulsive patterns of promiscuity, anonymous sex, sex for money,

sex in public places, sex with minors, concomitant drug and alcohol abuse,
depression, suicide),
for the APA to argue that these features do not constitute an
"impairment of social effectiveness or functioning,"
stretches the boundaries of plausibility.

To argue that early death does not constitute an
"impairment of social effectiveness or functioning" is absurd.


The APA claims its mission is
"to promote a bio-psycho-social approach to understanding and
caring for patients, in all aspects of health care, including illness prevention"
(APA's Stategic Goals Statement).
Thus the APA violates its own goals then when it ignores evidence that
homosexuality can in many cases be prevented, and denies reorientation therapy
to those who want it.


A careful reading of the articles opposing reorientation therapy reveals their authors'
rationale that they find such therapy to be "oppressive" to those who
do not want therapy.[xxii]


What if this logic was applied to any other lethal illness?


What if doctors said,
"We refuse to treat cancer (or, say, alcoholism) because we only achieve a
50% cure rate—and many people who don't want to be cured find it oppressive

that we do cure the others?"

Why wouldn't the lawsuits for malpractice be filed?


We know that Ronald Gold of the Gay Activist's Alliance, an openly gay man,
was a member of the committee to remove homosexuality as a diagnosis in 1973.

We know that gay activists were disrupting meetings, threatening doctors,
and using other strong-arm tactics to get their way at that time.[xxiii]


We also know that homosexual activists like Dr. Richard Isay in the APA have
pressed for resolutions to punish therapists for practicing reorientation therapy,
and that threats of lawsuits appear to be the main reason the APA has

not implemented his proposals.[xxiv]

We know homosexual advocates in the APA continue to suppress debate about
Spitzer's new study documenting that sexual orientation can be changed
(and to suppress debate about other supporting studies).[xxv]

We also know that
active homosexuals such as Clinton Anderson at the
Amer
ican Psychological Association refuse to permit NARTH to
engage in open debate or announce NARTH meetings in APA publications
simply because he disagrees with the premises upon which
reorientation therapy is based.[xxvi]

For these reasons, I do not th
ink it is far-fetched to use the analogy that
the "drunks are running
the rehab center,"
in
reference to the APA's—at least as far as homosexuality is concerned.

Active homosexu
als can hardly be objective about an addictive behavior
they engage in themselves.

In
light of the medical evidence, it seems that the Galenic dictum,
"physician heal thyself," should apply, as it
did it in the past,
as Dr. Satinover suggests.[xxvii]

It seems to me the situation in this country will only get
worse
until the APA is held directly responsible for what is

arguably their criminal negligence.

In
failing to reckon with serious medical consequences of
the homosexual behavior
pattern,
they are harming our whole society,

and especially the upcoming generation.


The recent decision by the American Academy of Pediatrics

to endorse gay adoptions is ye
t another disturbing example
of how the decision to "normalize" ho
mosexuality by the APA has had
a broad ripple effect.

Health professionals
especially, should heed Dean Byrd's outcry on the NARTH
web
site that it is time that the American people
"insist on
truth, not politics, from all of our professional organizations."

What will it take to insist on truth? Lawsuits? Protests?

In my opinion, doctors and
other health professionals must exert pressure,
or share culpability.


What if every person reading this article sent a copy of it

to the president of the American Psychiatric Association and

asked for a response?

Reasoned debate
is the least that psychiatrists owe our society—especially those
whose lives
and loved ones are at risk.




Source:
http://www.massresistance.org/docs/...ng-1008/docs/Health_Disorder_LifeSiteNews.pdf


Charles Socarides, MD, Founder of NARTH, wrote the 1992 article "Sexual Politics And Scientific Logic: The Issue Of Homosexuality," in the Journal Of Psychohistory:
"By declaring a condition [homosexuality] a 'non-condition,' a group of practitioners had removed it from our list of serious psychosexual disorders. The action was all the more remarkable when one considers that it involved the out-of-hand and peremptory disregard and dismissal not only of hundreds of psychiatric and psychoanalytic research papers and reports, but also of a number of other serious studies by groups of psychiatrists, psychologists, and educators over the past seventy years...
In essence, this movement within the American Psychiatric Association has accomplished what every other society, with rare exceptions, would have trembled to tamper with--a revision of a basic code and concept of life and biology; that men and women normally mate with the opposite sex and not with each other."


Stanton Jones, PhD, Professor of Psychology at Wheaton College, and Mark Yarhouse, PsyD, Associate Professor of Psychology at Regent University, stated in their 2000 book Homosexuality: The Use of Scientific Research in the Church's Moral Debate:
"A survey four years after the [American Psychiatric Association] vote found that 69% of psychiatrists regarded homosexuality as a 'pathological adaptation'...
Research supports a relationship between homosexuality and personal distress (e.g., rates of depression, substance abuse and suicidality)..."

 

Hawkeye

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From the stand point of natural selection homosexuality is a boo-boo. It's not an illness though, rather it is a chemical imbalance that has existed since birth. By curing this imbalance, you are destroying the very person they are. You cannot choose to be homosexual.

What you are doing is as bad as mocking a person born with missing limbs. One of the better speeches I've heard came from a man born with no limbs other than his "chicken leg" as he called it.




Get off your high horse :p
 

QuickTwist

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I guess I'm glad I've never had sex with a guy.
 

Cherry Cola

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Actually saying that from the standpoint of natural selection homosexuality is a boo-boo is wrong. It assumes the misconception that it's the set of genes found in an individual which matter and not the genes themselves considered separately. Unfortunately the latter is true and the former is false. Check out the selfish gene by Richard Dawkins if you so wish.

With that in mind consider also inclusive fitness: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inclusive_fitness

It is not particularly difficult to imagine that homosexuality is beneficial from an evolutionary perspective. Especially not in bushman tribes which are after all what we are shaped to live in seeing as we were living that way for ages before civilization came along a few thousand years ago.

Having a limited amount of people freed from the need to reproduce means that these people can spend their efforts on helping their tribe in other ways, and since tribal members share a lot of genes this may benefit the survival of said genes if the homosexuals themselves do not reproduce.

And this is assuming that they don't. Homosexuals are perfectly capable of reproducing despite their sexual preferences.

In any case saying homosexuality is a boo-boo from the point of natural selection is a dubious statement in the least.

I also find myself wondering why on earth there would be homosexuals if they didn't fulfill any function from an evolutionary perspective.
 

Hawkeye

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Actually saying that from the standpoint of natural selection homosexuality is a boo-boo is wrong. It assumes the misconception that it's the set of genes found in an individual which matter and not the genes themselves considered separately. Unfortunately the latter is true and the former is false. Check out the selfish gene by Richard Dawkins if you so wish.

With that in mind consider also inclusive fitness: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inclusive_fitness

It is not particularly difficult to imagine that homosexuality is beneficial from an evolutionary perspective. Especially not in bushman tribes which are after all what we are shaped to live in seeing as we were living that way for ages before civilization came along a few thousand years ago.

Having a limited amount of people freed from the need to reproduce means that these people can spend their efforts on helping their tribe in other ways, and since tribal members share a lot of genes this may benefit the survival of said genes if the homosexuals themselves do not reproduce.

And this is assuming that they don't. Homosexuals are perfectly capable of reproducing despite their sexual preferences.

In any case saying homosexuality is a boo-boo from the point of natural selection is a dubious statement in the least.

I also find myself wondering why on earth there would be homosexuals if they didn't fulfill any function from an evolutionary perspective.

Life is a complex thing and subtle changes can have drastic effects, for example : A tiny change in human body temperature can be fatal.

Homosexuality is not exclusive to humans, nor are genders black and white. It is all about chemical balances which is why they use testosterone to promote masculine changes for women.

Also, sexual attraction plays a larger role in reproduction than you are giving it credit for.
 

Cherry Cola

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Huh? None of what you wrote says anything about what I wrote or anything about the original claim of yours which I refuted. Since when did I say homosexuality was exclusive to humans, genders black and white, that things are not about chemical balances?

Furthermore, if you're gonna make a statement like the one in your last sentence then you should explain it too. Okay so attraction plays a larger role? Why? How? What am I to say if you don't present a case.
 

QuickTwist

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Actually saying that from the standpoint of natural selection homosexuality is a boo-boo is wrong. It assumes the misconception that it's the set of genes found in an individual which matter and not the genes themselves considered separately. Unfortunately the latter is true and the former is false. Check out the selfish gene by Richard Dawkins if you so wish.

With that in mind consider also inclusive fitness: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inclusive_fitness

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this. What do you think about quality over quantity?
 

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It is not particularly difficult to imagine that homosexuality is beneficial from an evolutionary perspective. Especially not in bushman tribes which are after all what we are shaped to live in seeing as we were living that way for ages before civilization came along a few thousand years ago.

Having a limited amount of people freed from the need to reproduce means that these people can spend their efforts on helping their tribe in other ways, and since tribal members share a lot of genes this may benefit the survival of said genes if the homosexuals themselves do not reproduce.

There is no homosexuality in primitive societies.
Also, the reproduction rate is lowered under these conditions,
so not every intercourse is rewarded with impregnation.
In fact, most intercourse is fruitless.
That's why universally primitive societies have some form of fertility rite and fertility deities.

I also find myself wondering why on earth there would be homosexuals if they didn't fulfill any function from an evolutionary perspective.

Does breast cancer fulfill an evolutionary task?
If so, for whom exactly?
 

Cherry Cola

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Hawkeye

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Huh? None of what you wrote says anything about what I wrote or anything about the original claim of yours which I refuted. Since when did I say homosexuality was exclusive to humans, genders black and white, that things are not about chemical balances?

Furthermore, if you're gonna make a statement like the one in your last sentence then you should explain it too. Okay so attraction plays a larger role? Why? How? What am I to say if you don't present a case.

Firstly, I never said you did. You deduced that purely by assumption. Those points I made actually support my initial point. Despite evolution, there are other factors that can affect the chemical balance of a creature. Look at what Chernobyl did... Why do you think they recommend not drinking or smoking whilst pregnant?

Also, do I really need to explain the importance of sexual attraction? Really?

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Cherry Cola

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A list of facts without any explanation as to their relevance is not a point made. It is a list of facts. Learn to argue your case.

Ah, so you speculate that homosexuality is caused by some external factor. And no you don't need to explain the importance of sexual attraction because I already gave a counterexamples as to why it is not necessary due to inclusive fitness. The failure to reproduce of an invidvidual does not necessitate the failure of that individual to help his genes survive into the next generation.

What you are claiming is a theory, as is what I am claiming. But what you said to begin with was no theory but a statement. But you don't know that homosexuality is bad from an evolutionary perspective. You've assumed it regardless of whether you are right or not.

Furthermore, the fact that it exists in animals, exists all over the world in all cultures, and has done so long before humanity had much on impact on the environment doesn't really support your case. And if the cause was not genetic, but enviromental there is still the question of why there hasn't evolved a defence against if it negatively impacts the spreading of genes.

Finally you have still yet to adress any of the points I made.
 
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