INTP example of immaturity towards feelings

[samjonathan]

ok, this is kind of long so bear with me

an extremely close friend of mine (an INFP), probably my closest friend, has recently stopped attending school because she is suffering from anxiety and depression, or so i've been told and whenever i start talking about school or something she looks scared and tells me to stop incase she has a panic attack

since she has stopped coming to school i have hardly seen her as much as i used to and when i do see her she generally seems fine, it worries me because she hasn't actually told me whats going on

i hate to sound self centered but it is causing me a lot of distress to see her like this, i just feel lost, like a small child in a big dark forest of feelings and emotions and things i can't really grapple

i can only relate to how she feels to a certain extent partly because she doesn't tell me much, partly because i can't imagine myself in her situation and partly because if i were to find myself in her situation i wouldn't be doing what she's doing right now (avoiding all of her problems and smoking lots of weed)

it seems to me as though she's let everything get on top of her and just tried to avoid it but in avoiding it it's gotten worse, to the point where she's stopped leaving the house except to go to work on weekends and see friends now and then

it just pains me to stand by and watch and i really don't want to stand by and watch but nothing i do seems to help and i'm afraid if i do try and do something she'll push me away, it's all very tiring for me to be dealing with emotion

i want to help, i just dont know how, and i was wondering if anyone else may have ever been in a similar situation or something i suppose or if anyone has any advice on what's best to do (for both of us) or just general opinions

 

[Minuend]

Is she seeing a doctor? If she's that bad she needs a shrink or some drugs (other than weed). I know some have problems even showing up at the doctor's office, or even manage to say something whilst there. In such case a friend can go with her and talk for her.

 

[cheese]

Hmm, has she checked out the Linden Method for panic attacks? It's supposed to be good. Not sure if it's a scam though.

The number one thing to do is not belittle the anxiety. It's not fun to live with. If she's experiencing it, it's unlikely she can just 'snap out of it'. In fact, anyone advocating that is likely to be simply cut of mentally, or induce feelings of guilt, which will bring on another attack. And attempts to 'force' the anxiety away will often make it worse, because what you have is excess energy/adrenaline pumping through your system, and aggressive responses to that will simply increase the adrenaline.

You do sound like you're eager to help though, and not explain or argue these things away. That's good; they can rarely be argued away. With INFPs, the best thing to do is probably simply to empathise with what they say. If you can't do that, just listen and try to nod supportively. Your Fe may be weak but it will try to reach out and help her dom Fi. Don't be afraid to follow some of your leadings - except if you feel you should try to logically argue away her depression, anxiety or panic attacks. Don't do that. Just try to understand how awful it must feel; put yourself in her shoes and let her know you empathise with her suffering. If you try to argue things away, you will simply alienate her, and generally people with these problems already feel very alienated and alone, because they are going through scary experiences, and that's what fear does to people.

It might also be useful to tell her that, as much as she feels afraid, alone, like she can't face her triggers, like she feels she might be going crazy, like she's worried she'll lose control, or even if she has disturbing thoughts - that she's not alone, she's not going crazy, she won't lose control, and the thoughts are *caused* by the anxiety and depression, rather than something 'evil' inside her. (I'm not sure if she does have these thoughts, but if she does, she needn't be afraid of herself.)

Panic attacks never cause one to actually lose control, though it may feel like you will. They never cause you to die. You can't have a heart attack while you have a panic attack. They never make anyone go crazy.

Let her know she is not alone and her mind is safe, even if the experiences are scary. (That is, if she's open to talking about it at all.) There is help to be had.

 

[Dimensional Transition]

I have been in her situation, as an INTP. I still skip school a lot, but that's more because it really bores me to death these days... I suffered from pretty bad anxiety and depression last year. People tend to treat it as just something that only 'pussies get', and that people who are suffering from anxiety are just people who should 'man the fuck up and stop living in a world of self-pity'. This is the shit I got all the time, it made everything worse and worse. You can not help it if you get anxiety or depression, it's a really complicated thing.

Panic attacks are horrendous, it's really hard to understand for people who have never had one. Everything slows down, your senses numb, you feel extremely alone, as if you're watching some sort of empty, boring movie that's called 'life'. You're stuck in your own thoughts, all you want to do is just get away from it all. It feels like you're dying, going completely mad, losing it all.

Those attacks in turn often brings people into depression. You start avoiding going anywhere but home, in your safe zone. Life is becoming increasingly bleak and dark because you feel like you can't go anywhere anymore, because you feel like you'll just panic anyways. It's really hell. It's fucking awful. It takes a lot of willpower to get rid of this.

First of all, try getting her to stop smoking so much weed. Weed can be fine if used as true medication, if there is absolutely no other solution, and it makes you feel sane and normal, and everybody around you agrees with that et cetera, but it's not good if you consistently use it to escape your problems. As a matter of fact, weed tends to make it only worse and worse, throwing you deeper into that dark, dull abyss. She definitely should not use weed to self-medicate in this situation. And recommend to her to try and let her symptoms of anxiety and depression just 'be'. If you focus on trying to get them away or trying to figure it all out, it's only going to become worse. She should just accept it, and over time all her symptoms should just fade away.(This can take months, though! It took me about 9 months to completely get rid of all those symptoms by just accepting it all. But it's the only solution, besides living a life of (self)medication.)

I hope she gets better!

 

[samjonathan]

Minuend: she has recently seen a doctor, who has put her on antidepressants but i'm not sure if thats a good idea, it doesn't reach the cause of the situation, whatever that actually is

cheese: thankyou for your detailed advice, i just have a few more things to ask, she doesn't exactly come to me for help, would you suggest i specificly ask her whats wrong/going on or let her tell me things when she feels?
i find it very frustrating being with her at the moment because it seems like she's doing everything to ignore it all but at the same time it feels like she needs/wants help, i feel like her not being open with me is a bit insulting and i know its probably to do with the fact that she's Fi orientated but it gets to a point where her closing me off irritates me so much that i start to be quite cold and rational towards her (i generally don't verablise these thoughts) because often i think she doesnt want help, could you suggest anything i could do to avoid being unnecesaily harsh to her?

also is there any way anyone could suggest i help her without it bringing me down also, because at the moment i feel like i'm at the top of a very slippery slope of school and general life and things and this really isn't helping me climb back to the top, if anything it just magnifying my problems and dragging me down

 

[Dimensional Transition]

also is there any way anyone could suggest i help her without it bringing me down also, because at the moment i feel like i'm at the top of a very slippery slope of school and general life and things and this really isn't helping me climb back to the top, if anything it just magnifying my problems and dragging me down

Just do what I said, tell her to stop smoking weed and to accept her emotions. Ask her what she's feeling, and be UNDERSTANDING. Do not be like 'oh that's weird I've never had that.', it will only make her feel more alienated. You don't have to act like you've had the same feelings, but put effort in trying to understand what she's going through, try to be there for her.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Just do what I said, tell her to stop smoking weed and to accept her emotions. Ask her what she's feeling, and be UNDERSTANDING. Do not be like 'oh that's weird I've never had that.', it will only make her feel more alienated. You don't have to act like you've had the same feelings, but put effort in trying to understand what she's going through, try to be there for her.

A lot of this utilizes the ability to empathize, which is the reason there is a problem in the first place, OP can't. "Immaturity towards feelings"

How to do > What to do. And tbh, I'd like to know myself.

 

[Dimensional Transition]

I'm beginning to question my INTPness if you guys really have such a hard time empathizing with others.

What you need to do is imagine how you would feel if you were in such a situation. That is the key to empathy. INTPs tend to have a really bright imagination. Just try imagining you're someone else, it shouldn't be too hard. And don't tell me you don't have any feelings

 

[samjonathan]

I don't exactly have a hard time empathising, it's just that when I do empathise it's not a nice feeling, it's like I can imagine too much how she's feeling and it's really bad, but maybe that's the point, my concern is that I think the more I try and help the worse I will feel, because I don't think my friend will show signs of getting better even if she does, and I might end up in a similar situation to her because she will influence how I feel until there's a point where I become so useless that I actually have my own problems, and then neither of us will be very well

Is there a way of empathising but not getting in too deep or is that the point of empathy? In which case is empathy really the best I can do to help? Because it seems to me that my empathy will result in a vicious cycle in whcih we will both be helplessly trapped and not be able to help each other out of

 

[EyeSeeCold]

I'm beginning to question my INTPness if you guys really have such a hard time empathizing with others.

What you need to do is imagine how you would feel if you were in such a situation. That is the key to empathy. INTPs tend to have a really bright imagination. Just try imagining you're someone else, it shouldn't be too hard. And don't tell me you don't have any feelings

Well, there's putting oneself in another's shoes to understand the contextual background of the situation, and then there's identifying with the emotions and feelings that one is going through in that situation.

True empathy is more than being able to imagine yourself in a scenario, you have to really identify with those vast emotions and feelings that another person would be going through. How can the typical INTP empathize with someone over an emotional situation when the INTP's own emotions are extinguished by the time they reach the surface?

 

[scorpiomover]

Simples.

I suffer with a problem about leaving the house a lot. I can tell you what works for me.

When I am around people, and I am afraid, a lot of them pick up my feelings of fear, and start to feel fearful themselves, only they interpret it as a fear they have, often for how I am feeling. This then reacts back on me, and I find that their fear now makes me feel more afraid of my issues.

When someone is dismissive of my fears, and tries to persuade me that they are not real, this doesn't work, because the fact that they are trying to make me forget my fears, means that my fears NEED reacting to.

However, when I am around people who just accept my situation, in a totally non-judgemental fashion, and remain calm and serene themselves, somehow, I find that when they do things, I naturally just go along with them. When they want to go out somewhere, I will often find myself going out with them. Over time, with enough exposure, my general state changes to be much more like their general mental state.

However, this only seems to work when they do not accept my problems as some responsibility on them. If they do so, then they are again showing me that my fears are things to be taken seriously.

So if you want her to change, then just think about how you would like her to react to her fears. You would want her to not worry about them, to not even feel a need to dismiss them at all, because they are not a problem, and to not even worry about how they might affect her, because they are really not a problem, and to also be happy to acknowledge the fears exist, because they aren't a problem.

Once you act like that, and talk like that, acknowledging her fears, not dismissing her fears, not even worrying about that she has fears, and just acting like you are calm and happy anyway, I think you will find, that over weeks and months, you'll see that when she is around you, she finds the strength to follow you to places, and that will give her a bit more energy, and you will no longer feel that it's such a burden on you.

I've also done this with others. Seems to work on others as well.

The most I would suggest to you, is to give it a shot, as an experiment, and observe how well it works.

Hmm, has she checked out the Linden Method for panic attacks? It's supposed to be good. Not sure if it's a scam though.

Looked it up online. Sounds simple enough and makes sense to me. I'll try it out as an experiment.

 

[digital angel]

I don't exactly have a hard time empathising, it's just that when I do empathise it's not a nice feeling, it's like I can imagine too much how she's feeling and it's really bad, but maybe that's the point, my concern is that I think the more I try and help the worse I will feel, because I don't think my friend will show signs of getting better even if she does, and I might end up in a similar situation to her because she will influence how I feel until there's a point where I become so useless that I actually have my own problems, and then neither of us will be very well

Is there a way of empathising but not getting in too deep or is that the point of empathy? In which case is empathy really the best I can do to help? Because it seems to me that my empathy will result in a vicious cycle in whcih we will both be helplessly trapped and not be able to help each other out of

It's ok for you to have boundaries. Perhaps you could let her know that you will be there for her if she needs you. Then, let it go.

While I can't be certain, it sounds like something happened that I don't know about. If she's seeing a therapist and it's working for her...great.

 

[Vrecknidj]

A long, long time ago, my wife (an XNFP, but more I than E), when in high school, went through a long stretch when she was emotionally unable to attend school. The one thing she did not get, that, after decades of hindsight (and a ton of antidepressant drugs and a helluva lot of counseling later), she wishes she had gotten, was counseling.

Nothing, nothing beats a really, really good counselor. They're sometimes damn hard to find, they won't jump immediately to pills, and they'll work you through your issues, and not dump on you for other things.

One other point, and this one is huge. If your friend has celiac disease, than all of this can be cured by a change in diet. The easy way to find this out, easier than spending a lot of money on blood tests, etc., is to remove all wheat and all gluten from your diet. That's not as easy as it sounds, but, this will help.

Good luck.

 

[pjoa09]

Invite your INFP friend to a chaotic party that are full with people who she can relate to and are nice.

I know very idealistic but if you get anything close to that you ought to pull her a little out.

I am not saying parties make you happy but for me it helps calming my senses for less anxious situations. It also develops in a way that you feel that you can't leave.

 

[Dimensional Transition]

Well, there's putting oneself in another's shoes to understand the contextual background of the situation, and then there's identifying with the emotions and feelings that one is going through in that situation.

True empathy is more than being able to imagine yourself in a scenario, you have to really identify with those vast emotions and feelings that another person would be going through. How can the typical INTP empathize with someone over an emotional situation when the INTP's own emotions are extinguished by the time they reach the surface?

So you mean all INTPs are supposed to suppress their feelings? Feel no emotion at all? Come on. Everybody must have felt fear, sadness, happiness, jealousy... I can agree the more complex emotions are really hard to understand for an INTP, but the whole 'they feel nothing' thing seems ridiculous to me.
It is hard to understand complex emotions, indeed. What I mean with trying to put yourself in someone else's shoes of course includes feeling their emotions too, actually, that's the whole point of it. Try to live into someone else's emotional world. Because we can only feel those complex emotions minimally, we can still stay sane and offer advice and a helping hand, but also get pretty deeply into the person's situation.

I don't know though, maybe it's just my own experience with how I deal with these kind of things.

 

[MissQuote]

So you mean all INTPs are supposed to suppress their feelings? Feel no emotion at all? Come on. Everybody must have felt fear, sadness, happiness, jealousy... I can agree the more complex emotions are really hard to understand for an INTP, but the whole 'they feel nothing' thing seems ridiculous to me.
It is hard to understand complex emotions, indeed. What I mean with trying to put yourself in someone else's shoes of course includes feeling their emotions too, actually, that's the whole point of it. Try to live into someone else's emotional world. Because we can only feel those complex emotions minimally, we can still stay sane and offer advice and a helping hand, but also get pretty deeply into the person's situation.

I don't know though, maybe it's just my own experience with how I deal with these kind of things.

I understand what you are getting at. Some of the lack of ability to understand emotions at all that I've read on this forum trips me out.

For myself I am able to empathize with others, with high effort, in the sense that I understand the root stem of their emotions, though I may not actually feel them when I say "oh, man, what a jerk" or "oh, gee, that sucks" ... in fact I may actually have to put out effort to see these emotions and give the appropriate response, instead of jumping into instant analyze the facts mode (or analyze the facts of why said person is being emotional over whatever) but, yeah...

I don't surpress my feelings so much as I think my feelings are way too damn big to comprehend in terms of themselves alone, I need to step back, preferably quickly, and take a look at the cause and reasons, biological and circumstantial, and figure what I think about it all, and what, if anything, I am going to do about it.

I have had the opportunity to know some people who are truely ruled by emotion, and I have found that when these people are healthy and well adjusted it is quite amazing their capacity to change their veiwpoint on a matter based purly on a overwhelming realization of empathy with another.

 

[cheese]

cheese: thankyou for your detailed advice, i just have a few more things to ask, she doesn't exactly come to me for help, would you suggest i specificly ask her whats wrong/going on or let her tell me things when she feels?
i find it very frustrating being with her at the moment because it seems like she's doing everything to ignore it all but at the same time it feels like she needs/wants help, i feel like her not being open with me is a bit insulting and i know its probably to do with the fact that she's Fi orientated but it gets to a point where her closing me off irritates me so much that i start to be quite cold and rational towards her (i generally don't verablise these thoughts) because often i think she doesnt want help, could you suggest anything i could do to avoid being unnecesaily harsh to her?

also is there any way anyone could suggest i help her without it bringing me down also, because at the moment i feel like i'm at the top of a very slippery slope of school and general life and things and this really isn't helping me climb back to the top, if anything it just magnifying my problems and dragging me down

I was going to suggest something along the lines of what scorpiomover said. A lot of the time people's natural empathy will prevent them from being of any extended use to the sufferer! It's a pity. Remember, while you may understand what she is feeling, her feelings ARE NOT YOURS. You must remember to keep yourself separate; do not let this bring you down as well or like you said you will be useless.

This goes for your feeling insulted as well. My basic point is this: don't look at this as a problem to be fixed. Obviously it'd be nice if it is. But work yourself round to the point where you can accept bad feelings and bad situations, instead of trying to run from them by throwing solutions at them and hoping they go away.

A lot of people have the tendency to run from anything bad. They will say they are trying to solve the problem - and they are, but the root of that is fear. We've all been trained to fear what's bad and try to make it go away as quickly as possible. There's nothing necessarily wrong with that, but when it comes to dealing with someone else's emotional issues it can be a problem. Learn to accept Bad, instead of trying to instantly make it go away. I'm not saying you have to accept it permanently, but understand that this is an uncomfortable situation and it will very likely not be resolved immediately, and your desire to see her helped, and to make the problem disappear, will hamper the process if you are too quick to be discouraged. Instead of focusing on trying to make The Enemy leave as quickly as possible (and blaming your friend when she isn't practical or doesn't want to face facts), focus on getting to know the problem and respecting your friend's decisions - ultimately, it's her life.

Too many people focus on spitting out solutions instead of listening to the person or trying to fully understand the problem. The reason they do this is their fear of negativity and their need to feel like they're in control and can make it all go away. Life's a bit more complicated than that though. Once you can accept that in some situations you're powerless, you will be of much greater use to your friend. Understand that people who try to 'provide solutions' are often afraid of their own reactions to the problem, and that she has probably heard many different quick-fixes from many different well-meaning sources. After a while, you just give up sharing with anyone, because instead of listening and appreciating the complexity of the problem, they'll just say a few words to try to make it go away. It makes you feel more alienated than ever because everyone else is too afraid of your problems to simply accept them, and it makes it impossible to talk to anyone. It's like being paralysed in a hole where people keep passing by and advising her on how to get out and then just walking off. Sit with her in the hole. But remember, you are not trapped down there with her. You are not there to fix her problems. You are there to be her friend. Offer advice if you want, but don't feel responsibility or resentment if she doesn't take it. There may be problems she's unable to articulate that prevent her from taking your advice. She may need time to get to a place where she can even start considering solutions. She may not be choosing to for whatever reason.

At the end of the day, she's someone with problems like anyone else. Just accept her as she is right now, and let go of your need to see her change. This is the best thing you can do for her. Don't be afraid of the negativity, but accept it as a fact of life, and remember, you are not in charge of making her feel better or fixing her up.

 

[samjonathan]

cheese: you raise some good points especially about accepting it, but i suppose what i really want is to know how to help her, not necessarily to fix her but to help her however she needs without hurting myself too much

 

[Roni]

A lot of this utilizes the ability to empathize, which is the reason there is a problem in the first place, OP can't. "Immaturity towards feelings"

How to do > What to do. And tbh, I'd like to know myself.

Empathy isn't hard. Trying to think and feel the way an F thinks and feels is hard, but that's not empathy.

For our OP I'd recommend doing some research on panic attacks, depression, anxiety and maybe drug abuse. That's where a T is safe - filled up with data.

Extremely distressed people appreciate a calm, knowlegable ear. They may be freaking out and irrational but they need calm. Just knowing this much shows empathy.
And Ts are good at calm.
The object is not to stop an F being an F. It's to let them draw on your T when they need it (within your own limits, of course).

 

[Hermetic Alchemist]

Minuend: she has recently seen a doctor, who has put her on antidepressants but i'm not sure if thats a good idea, it doesn't reach the cause of the situation, whatever that actually is

In cases like this anti-depressants are not intended to reach the cause of the problem. What they are meant to do, is allow the feelings of blackness to abate. That will allow her to see her problems more clearly and deal with them through counselling and self analysis.

Essentially anti-depressants are meant to give you the time and space and objectivity to sort things out. In theory you should never be given anti-depressants for this sort of thing without also having therapy and counselling. Unfortunately in this pill happy age that does not always occur.

INTPs can be very good at helping people look at their problems objectively. However in order to help her do this you first need to gain her trust. Be a sympathetic friend first most. Hang out with her. Remind her of the good things about school (i.e. you and other friends), not by telling her, but by reminiscing about some of the fun times you had. When she trusts you try and get her to open up. Ask a few gentle, but leading, questions. If she shies away talk about something else. After a few visits she'll hopefully open up. Ask her to describe her feelings. Then ask her about what first started to cause the feelings. Use your INTPness to be very very calm and objective about the whole thing. Remove all judgement from yourself. Focus on a single cause and or feeling each time you talk about it. Don't try and sort everything out at once, just leave her with a few thoughts about the why's of her situation (and how they can be resolved in a positive way). And of course be positive. Tell her that there is always hope.

That's the way I would go about things. I have frequently been used by my friends as a sounding board. Of course sometimes they don't want logical objectiveness, they just want sympathy...well I don't do that too well. But if they want to resolve their own mind, that's what I am good at!

 

[Dimensional Transition]

Empathy isn't hard. Trying to think and feel the way an F thinks and feels is hard, but that's not empathy.

For our OP I'd recommend doing some research on panic attacks, depression, anxiety and maybe drug abuse. That's where a T is safe - filled up with data.

Extremely distressed people appreciate a calm, knowlegable ear. They may be freaking out and irrational but they need calm. Just knowing this much shows empathy.
And Ts are good at calm.
The object is not to stop an F being an F. It's to let them draw on your T when they need it (within your own limits, of course).

Exactly this. You managed to put everything I tried to explain all the time into a simple, quick, post. It's not hard being empathic.