- Local time
- Yesterday, 22:42
- Jun 22, 2017
How would one know if an INTP loved them & didn't just like them the same way they liked their friends & coworkers?
I cannot imagine an intp would marry someone if they didn't love them. INTPs arent exactly excited about the idea of marriage itself. It is difficult to give up your freedom and independence to another person. I also think if they say it you can believe it unless they are young because the youg have difficulty understanding love.How would one know if an INTP loved them & didn't just like them the same way they liked their friends & coworkers?
I am sorry to hear that.I asked. He wouldn't answer. Hasn't answered the past 3 times I've asked over the past year.
This is likely subtype differences. The Ti-INTP goes along well with the Fe-ESFJ, while the Ne-INTP matches up to Si-ESFJ. If your subtypes are mismatched, it begins to feel like walking-on-egg-shells situation.I knew this ESFJ once, and I noticed that the most minute of things, like the tone with which I said something, could evoke severe emotions and judgments in her. It is quite a bizarre experience from the standpoint of an INTP, because you would have to smash an INTP in the face with a sledgehammer to evoke the same kind of reaction. I typically don't have an emotional reaction to anything anyone says because everything I hear is passed through a logical filter. So with this ESFJ, I eventually realized that it would be impossible for me to be with her in the long run; I would have to tip-toe around her and expend considerable amounts of energy thinking about what can and cannot be said. I would definitely have to curb my sense of humor, for example, which is quite a terrible way to live. I cannot fathom how long-term INTP/ESFJ relationships even exist.
The subtype angle is very intriguing. It does seem apparent when you observe people closely. However I do think the duality concept is problematic. The dual type will be a difficult match, regardless of subtype. It's continued elevation in mainstream socionics is rather bizarre in my view. Though it's understandable since the whole system is in a way built on top of it.This is likely subtype differences. The Ti-INTP goes along well with the Fe-ESFJ, while the Ne-INTP matches up to Si-ESFJ. If your subtypes are mismatched, it begins to feel like walking-on-egg-shells situation.
The ESFJ you're talking about is the sensory Si subtype. I've met these ESFJs before. They have very, very sensitive perception of anything sensory, such as the tone of a person's voice. This matches the weak sensing function and stronger Fe of Ne-INTP, but causes an overload for the Ti-INTP.
Real life reports indicate that it is actually one of the easier matches due to how quickly and almost instinctively your dual understands you and how naturally they respond. This happens because oneself and one's dual are basically two parts of the same integral type, rather than two very different types. Simple illustration of this concept for INTPs & ESFJs:The subtype angle is very intriguing. It does seem apparent when you observe people closely. However I do think the duality concept is problematic. The dual type will be a difficult match, regardless of subtype. It's continued elevation in mainstream socionics is rather bizarre in my view. Though it's understandable since the whole system is in a way built on top of it.
Activity relations are great, but the 2 big setbacks they have compared to duality are:If any match has to have the totemic status enjoyed by duality in Socionics, it really should be activity. And Activity with matching subtypes (i.e Ne-INTP with Si-ISFJ) seems to me as close to a sweet spot as one can get.
Here you get the dualisation effect (which I do accept has something to it, though it has been exploded into an overgrown monster in Socionics), without the tyrannical over-imposition of the anima.
Indeed. I've experienced this.Real life reports indicate that it is actually one of the easier matches due to how quickly and almost instinctively your dual understands you and how naturally they respond. This happens because oneself and one's dual are basically two parts of the same integral type, rather than two very different types.
Indeed. A mindset common in MBTI circles. The opposite mindset is to conceptualise duals as being virtually the same type but with nourishing complementary attributes, and omit the fact that they're very different from each other in interests and disposition, leading to the baseless conclusion that duality is the garden of Eden.If you conceptualize "dual" types as being extremely different from each other and omit the fact that they are virtually the same type, then all kinds of mental barriers arise that lead to a conclusion that duality is a 'very difficult' match.
Indeed. And adherents of the two traditions are typically guilty of opposite erroneous conclusions.You have to think of duals as both: same as being effectively the same composite type, and opposites as in being at opposite ends of that composite. If you highlight only the opposition, then it presents an inaccurate picture and leads to erroneous conclusions.
Agreed. Though people look for different things in a marriage. Those who value stimulation over synergy will prefer shared N/S, and those who prioritise shared interests will seek shared T/F over anything else. Simply put, those who idealise marriage/long-term romantic partnership as a mindmate/soulmate union will be better served by marriage to someone of shared Kiersey temperament.Purely logically it also makes sense that if you and your partner are mismatched by functions, you won't understand each other as well or as deeply, which reflects on the quality of a marriage and long-term partnerships.
Indeed. I'm aware of this. And it's a very positive thing. There are people jettisoning sacred cows and re-examining and refining concepts in both systems.Thus some socionists don't subscribe to the concept of duality and same quadra above all else. They have pointed out that each intertype relation has its particular use and purpose, and each type is intrumental for quadra progression, thus asymmetric relationship types are also of a special importance for each type.
Yes. But it's specifically Alpha intuitives, rather than Alphas in general. This is an important point to register; it speaks to the whole issue of the difference in interests and disposition between the the two ends of the composite, NTPs and SFJs in the case of the Alphas.P.S. Socionics is still, one can say, in the "Alpha" phase of development in that Ne/Si quadra and particualrly Alpha Quadra types predominate among those who get involved with it. As such, it doesn't actually have a "central" authority, but rather multiple schools that don't agree over everything. So when someone starts talking about Soconics as one centralized concept or one set of opinions, it is actually far from being that.
This is and always was a dubious assertion. Sure, sameness on I/E may be lacking a bit in dynamic contrast. But mismatched I/E is far more problematic for many.Activity relations are great, but the 2 big setbacks they have compared to duality are:
1) .. same intro-extro orientation, which especially for introverts can get a little tedious and boring in a relationship since no extroverted impulse is incoming and they basically have to work themselves up to it
I believe there may be something to this. It's an intriguing angle.2) .. rationality-irrationality, which leads to different rhythms of life and certain amounts of misunderstandings
Some disappointments are true blessings in disguise.activity's creative function doesn't have the 'globality', the comprehensiveness and intensiveness of dual's leading function which leads to certain disappointments
INTPs are just as likely to make mistakes in their life than any other type.I cannot imagine an intp would marry someone if they didn't love them. INTPs arent exactly excited about the idea of marriage itself. It is difficult to give up your freedom and independence to another person. I also think if they say it you can believe it unless they are young because the youg have difficulty understanding love.
If you are unsure just ask. I wouldnt read too much more into it than that.
Not as likely. We have super powers.INTPs are just as likely to make mistakes in their life than any other type.
You don't have 4,000 posts yet, that would be the reason.Not as likely. We have super powers.
In this case, we wouldn't be as likely to make a mistake. We avoid people more than other types and value our freedom to explore our ideas so getting into a serious relationship like, with an esfj, would require a massive amount of consideration and forethought and a serious amount of desire to be with that person.
What gives? I was like gone for 20 days and you go and quote me bringing me right back. Now everyones going to have to suffer my presence once again!
I agree with this. However the benefit of the shared functions (in opposite order) vs shared mode of perception is more ambiguous. I would maintain that on balance it's better to have shared functions, but the choice isn't simple.
Having intuition in different halves of the stack makes communication (and shared interests) challenging. But actual understanding, and therefore harmony, is better.
You do nonetheless essensially come from different places, and it takes maturity and self-knowledge to close the gap. If the two people share I/E, then they avoid adding a mismatched life rhythm to the challenge, and have an easier time of it.
Having the same mode of perception (shared N) is the opposite. Good communication and shared interests is more likely, but core understanding and psychic harmony is actually lacking.
All else being equal, no type match is without weaknesses. But a mature INTP should be happiest with either an INFJ or an ISFJ, though I believe ideally with an ISFJ.
An ESFP is the opposite end of the scale. Here you have the worst of all three worlds (mismatched pace of life, mismatched functions, mismatched cognitive modes).
Read the Si-ESFj and Fe-ESFj descriptions and see which one you can relate to the most. You may relate to some parts in both, but usually people relate to one subtype desription a little more than the other.Suggestions on best way to figure out if I'm Fe or Si?
The bold does seem like something I might do with my ESFJ friend I'm attracted to in an attempt to win her over, although I can also see myself toning it down after feeling more secure in the relationship. Isn't that kind of normal though, like something all types would do? I'd like to think I'd still share my thoughts, offer help and enjoy her company. And honestly the way this ESFJ reacts whenever I do something to try to make her feel special... Not sure if that would ever get old, so maybe I would keep at it. Although if I had more opportunities to show her as a result of being in a relationship with her (we're currently not) maybe I'd have less time to think of the kinds of things I'm thinking of now.What were the positives as compared to other relationships you've had?
Sorry. I tried to answer this but I'm probably not exactly understanding the question. I can't really think of general blanket positives compared to other relationships.
Were you very much aligned in terms of values and background?
Yes, actually. I honestly used to think we were totally compatible due to our individual histories. We were raised in the same church since children. His dad is a minister and did our marriage counseling. We actually rarely argue or disagree on child rearing and almost never disagree about finances. I think those "normal" reasons marriages don't work aren't our problem. We're both conservative christians, the babies of our families, and raised by middle-income parents.
How did you end up together in the first place?
I've read everything I can find about INTP's. There was one website that discussed the INTP - ENFJ relationship and how it happens. I think it was so spot on. We started dating when he was so young (I'm 3 years older). We dated for 4 years. He didn't want to commit because he didn't want to marry until he was 25 but I cut him off and told him I couldn't keep waiting and needed to move on with my life if he wasn't sure about us. A few months later, he came back and said he was ready.
I think my being everything he wasn't was very alluring. And his being undeveloped and not understanding himself is probably the reason he caved in to me. IDK. Just my guess. We used to have a lot of fun together. He can always make me laugh and I think he's the most intelligent person I know.
What did you see in him to make you prefer this awkward social misfit to guys who were perhaps more "eligible"?
Oh my goodness! Where do I start. I don't think I can even really explain it.
He has the ability to make you feel like the only person that exists. I think when an INTP loves you, they will go to extremes to show you but they'll even go above and beyond if you're just friends. On our first "date" (b/c at this time he was only 18, I was 21, and we were only just becoming friends and not really dating", he literally brought me a tiara because I was a princess, borrowed his brothers 8 Series BMW, drove me to another city to the fanciest dinner I had ever had, and took me to see Les Miserables -- opening my eyes to this whole new world. Seriously? How was I to resist that? He did things like that.
And he was brilliant and funny. He still is. And I knew he'd be a good provider. Yes, he always seemed a bit awkward in certain social environments. I felt like I needed to be his buffer or help teach him how to not ignore visitors we had or seem oblivious to certain social courtesies but the amazing life he opened my eyes to and having the privilege of getting a special piece of him -- that inner part of his mind being open to me -- felt like the grandest gift.
INTPs can be incredible. I don't know how to put it into words but it was like he was this heavily guarded secret garden that nobody was allowed in let alone even peek through the door. Getting that peek or getting let inside was an incredible honor and made me feel more special than I ever had before.
What do you think he saw in you?
I think he saw all these odd things in me that weren't familiar and they intrigued to him. I think I was fascinating and new. Maybe something to conquer, IDK. But most of those things seem to be annoyances to him now. I suppose I do the same thing to him to an extent. Maybe we all do this once the "new" wears off. He said he knew I'd be a good mother and that was important to him.
What's your view about better or worse type combinations?
I believe any combination is better and I'm not just being dramatic. I feel like INTP & ESFJ are literally the worst possible combination. I think if I had even 1 letter he has, we might have been able to make this work.
This is all just my opinion of course. Does that help & answer your questions?
I think the INTP/ESFJ romantic relationship can work but I believe it will not be as fulfilling as other type combinations (for either type). I have wondered if older folks overlook more of their personality preferences in leu of a sense of duty and commitment. Also, your grandmother sounds like a very polite ESFJ which it seems like older generations were better at in general. At the end of the day, I think most ESFJs would flourish with somebody more free with their emotions and with a strong sense of family involvement. And I think INTPs would flourish with somebody who supports their independence and lack of involvement in the day-to-day family/relationship stuff. Of course, I can't speak for all ESFJs and I can't really speak for any INTPs.As for me (also likely INTP), I mostly get along fine with my ESFJ grandmother now. When I was younger some her nosiness into my problems got on my nerves, but now that I'm "older" (26) she respects my privacy more and I'm less insecure about sharing any struggles I'm going through... although also better and less guilty about white lies if I don't want to talk about it. :/ I would say that I'm closer to her than my grandfather because we actually talk when we're together and it's not just her talking either, she'll ask me to tell her about things that happened in my life, and ask me to explain stuff (Ti seeking?) and act all happy that I'm being receptive to telling her about those things which makes me glad I did.
For me it's more like I'm not good at it so I don't want to deal with it. But I actually do care what people think about me and will get bothered if I'm under the impression that they think poorly of me (or just ignore me). Since I'm bad at it though, this is definitely something I would see as valuable with being with an ESFJ since the ESFJ can help me out, through a combination of doing it for me and fixing my blunders, but also through their example show me how to be better at it. I think it will also be quite apparent when I've made a blunder towards an ESFJ due to their expressiveness which means I can learn faster through that feedback and also quickly correct my blunder ("I didn't mean it that way"). With my parents I basically have to really lash out or blow them off repeatedly to get much of a reaction.Because I can draw on the many years hearing my husband say things like this and trying to understand him better, I think you are probably completely serious. There are few statemenst that sounds more bizarre to me.
I find you all very intriguing -- as I'm sure many ESFJs do, it's like a spell you guys can cast. But saying "sensitivity is a waste of time and energy" feels like "everything you (ESFJ) are built from is pointless and worthless." Hence -- why INTPs & ESFJs are, in my opinion, the absolute worst fit for a long-term relationship.
1) Is this how all INTPs feel?
2) Are sensitivities and feelings something you guys can learn to appreciate or is toleration the most that can be hoped for?
It's a little tricky... My parents bought me a couple books on procrastination at one point. At that time, I was quite willing to admit it to myself that I had difficulties with procrastination but I was less willing to admit it to them. I did read one of them and found it somewhat useful although I didn't talk about it to them.Do INTPs generally find it annoying for people to send them self-help material? And if so, why?
Ex: My husband and I have the same religious beliefs. If I read something encouraging or helpful, my first instinct is to share it with people I care about because it might encourage or help them. I asked my INTP husband if I could send him scriptures and he said no. (I've sent him other items like INTP articles and although he's given me little to no feedback, he said he actually reads it. Not sure if he appreciates it or reads out of a sense of duty.) Hope would this make you INTPs feel?
What's your dad's type. Sounds a lot like an ESFJ (or maybe ESTJ?)...My dad thinks he has all the answers and will try to pressure to follow his solutions....My mom was ok with that response, but my dad still wanted to insist there was something wrong with. I think I probably seem more cold to him than to many other people just because of how he is himself and how he doesn't engage me as much as others (and doesn't see me interact with others much).
Well it's not that they're sticking it together despite the problems. It's that there are no apparent problems. My parents will bring up issues between other relatives or issues they themselves have with my grandparents, but they don't seem to have anything to say about problems between those grandparents and I don't notice any myself either.I think the INTP/ESFJ romantic relationship can work but I believe it will not be as fulfilling as other type combinations (for either type). I have wondered if older folks overlook more of their personality preferences in leu of a sense of duty and commitment. Also, your grandmother sounds like a very polite ESFJ which it seems like older generations were better at in general. At the end of the day, I think most ESFJs would flourish with somebody more free with their emotions and with a strong sense of family involvement. And I think INTPs would flourish with somebody who supports their independence and lack of involvement in the day-to-day family/relationship stuff. Of course, I can't speak for all ESFJs and I can't really speak for any INTPs.
10 or 20 years? I'm not about to propose to her haha. I mean yeah I'm keeping the long term in the back of my mind but at this point I'm mostly just trying to figure out if I know her as well as I think I do.Again, the relationship is totally doable. Just take your time figuring out exactly how you want to live life 10 or 20 years from now and honestly think about the amount of effort it might take to make somebody else happy who has contradicting needs. If you can focus on the positives, what each person brings to the table, and value that more than you value your natural inherent way of being (and she is capable of doing the same), I think it could be beautiful. Feel free to ask me any additional ESFJ questions. I'm not trying to be a debbie downer but I'd hate for anyone to go through what my husband & I have gone through unnecessarily.
Yeah she's 24, I'm 26. I think we've both grown compared to when we were 20 but even though she has more concrete accomplishments that she can put on her resume, it does feel like she's just being swept along by life sometimes. But that Ti that's constantly trying to figure out how things work has spent a lot of the last year trying to understand what makes her tick and how a relationship between us might work so hopefully that will be of some use.Also, we ESFJs can be really stubborn and oblivious. I'm actually more worried about her ability to understand all the intricacies of this type of relationship and her level of self-awareness as a 20-something than I am about you. I didn't realize how little I understand about myself or how close-minded I was until mid-30's. I talked a good talk, but I can see now that I was pretty ignorant. Still am in many ways.
Oops. My ESFJ bad.10 or 20 years? I'm not about to propose to her haha. I mean yeah I'm keeping the long term in the back of my mind but at this point I'm mostly just trying to figure out if I know her as well as I think I do.
I actually think he's INTJ lol...What's your dad's type. Sounds a lot like an ESFJ (or maybe ESTJ?)
Yeah. I'd agree with that general assessment. Your interactions with your dad are kinda funny (but probably not to you or him).Pretty sure ESFJs would be more attuned to how people are responding to what they're saying and try a variety of topics until they find something that engages their audience.
He sometimes makes bad jokes on my Facebook page too. I'll make terrible jokes as well, but for the entertainment value of seeing people groan. I'm pretty sure he thinks he's being cool. Maybe that's just a dad thing though.Yeah. I'd agree with that general assessment. Your interactions with your dad are kinda funny (but probably not to you or him).