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INTP ESFJ Relationship Guide

viche

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#1
For any INTPs who would like to try a relationship with their opposite type, the ESFJ, considered to be dual to TiNe type in socionics, here is a handy guide. If you are already in a relationship or close friendship with an ESFJ, please add further advice and tips at your discretion drawing your own personal experience. Your own stories are welcome!


How to Charm an ESFJ

We present to your attention instructions intended to help [TiNe] type to more confidently and comfortably become introduced with and continue relations with their only and unique ESFJ.

Let us try to embrace the unembracable!!! (that is, ESFJs)

1. How to find / Where to look for ESFJ

ESFJs can be found everywhere due to their natural activeness and at least their curiosity (and at most - their inquisitiveness). Nevertheless, it is considered more natural to search for ESFJs in the fields of possible application of their base function of "black ethics" Fe (fields of service, performance, music ...) and of creative "white sensing" Si - various branches of design-studio (design of interiors, exteriors, fox terriers…, of clothing, colors, people and events…, medicine, cooking, aesthetics, various fine arts, ballet and dance ...), as well as humanitarian professions (teaching), flora and fauna, travel guides, and so on….

And nevertheless, facts are an obstinate thing, and they unequivocally show that ESFjs are sometimes inexorably drawn to exact sciences and technological spheres in general, i.e. places that usually have an abundance of LIIs. Thus, to begin, take a look around yourself ... - is it that merry girl who works at the neighboring desk, with whom it's so pleasant for you to associate?

Besides the professional sphere, an important role in the life of any ESFJ play active forms of leisure. Moreover, they are often preferred: gatherings of friends and family members, picnics, barbecues, hiking, rock climbing and camping trips, racing tracks, student groups and clubs of all times and all peoples (because there it's fun! and helps the community/country!), beaches, pools, gyms, theaters, concert halls, museums, sport competitions, ...

2. How to recognize an ESFJ?

This is easier to do where ESFJs can naturally show themselves. Possible types of manifestations as per the situation: mass-organizer, activist, welcoming host/hostess, attentive affable service personnel, enthusiast, fighter for fairness, sports fan, and so on. ... On the other hand, from the usual type descriptions sometimes an impression is created that every ESFJ is geyser of uncontrollable emotions, which is not always true.

the rest at http://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...j-ESFj-dual-relationship-How-to-Charm-an-ESFj
 

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#5
I disagree with the notion of INTP-ESTJ.

ESFJ might work, but you have to put in a lot of work on both sides. I prefer ENFJ.
 

ENTP lurker

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#6
If you are actually an Ni dominant avoid it.

For Ti dominants it is a cool ride. They make you guys smile, laugh and become happier in general.
 
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#8
Please can you not post images like the ones you put in spoilers ever again? im extremely squeamish...
 
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#10
Here is my guide: avoid it.
I back this too.
I dated (lived with) one for four years.
Not terrible by some standards i guess, but I think the way we saw the world and experienced love was too different.
In the end i think as a result of having a relationship with her I lost a very good and fun friend.
 

Pizzabeak

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#12
For one who supposedly watches a lot of films you would think they would be able to handle those kinds of images..
 

Nihilmatic

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#14
What's with the threads with guides to ESFJ's and relationship goals and shit like that. I don't see why you would want to be in a relationship with people like that. Most of the ESFJs I've met resulted in me extremely disliking them. The only one I don't hate is my mom (if she wasn't my mom I'm pretty I would dislike her too, regardless about the genuine care she has for me).

I may be overgeneralizing but ESFJ's are pretty dumb, drama queens, and always have the need to gossip. Their whole life revolves around petty gossip and materialistic values.

If you're going to take relationships with MBTI I think the ENFJ is a way better "soulmate" for the INTP rather than the drama queen of petty gossip (although they're usually extremely nice and caring people they're stupidity drives me off, so easily brainwashed and they will stick to their brainwashed ideology no matter how stupid it is).
 

Jennywocky

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#15
Almost got involved with an ESFJ once. Maybe it would have been different if we'd been older, but it was a true love/hate. One moment I found them appealing; and within 60 seconds I could go from attraction to total disgust and anger. I didn't like the intensity of the emotion it was generating or how unstable my responses were, it was just intersecting badly with my weaknesses at the time + bad past life Fe experiences.

ESTJ is typically too Te for me, or at least can feel too cut-and-dried. I think mostly it deals with my natural open-endedness, so trying to take on a Je primary who is not extremely balanced grates on me.

The ENFJ/ENTJ combos are more palatable, but I don't tend to do well with ENTJ either. Just too much need for dominance going on there, I feel like I'm constantly vying to maintain autonomy and it's too much an energy sinkhole to try to maintain.
 

Sir Eus Lee

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#18
I met a super cool ESFJ once. I have nothing against them as people. I think they vary in the spectrum, though I haven't seen the bad end. Which is ironic because I'm sure there's more bad end than good end.

I'll accept one as a acquaintance, but I think beyond that, even as friends, it's a no go.

I think vectors relate here. Vectors have a direction and a force. INTPs have no force, but are always adapting their direction. This is so they know which direction to go, and they refuse to go in any direction until they know it's the right one.

ESFJs are all force and no direction, or critique thereof. Or very little critique thereof. So they have a high propensity to shoot like a rocket in whatever direction seems viable. Which could easily be the complete opposite one of where they want to go.

I played my extrovert card when he was around because of poor chameleonic Fe. He wasn't a bad guy, but I don't think I can handle that level of Fe for too long. He literally started a non-profit, and enjoyed studying. Who does that.
 

Jennywocky

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#19
I met a super cool ESFJ once. I have nothing against them as people. I think they vary in the spectrum, though I haven't seen the bad end. Which is ironic because I'm sure there's more bad end than good end. I'll accept one as a acquaintance, but I think beyond that, even as friends, it's a no go.
I think everyone can get blacklisted because of their type, if people wanted to take it that far. From an ESFJ perspective, INTPs could easily be blackballed as being socially inept, isolated, insensitive, and uncommunicative. Each type naturally judging another type by their own standards can develop a bitch list about the other(s).

End Result: I generally try to just be friends with people I want to be friends with, regardless of type.

I actually have an ESFJ friend in one of my gaming groups. We connect on some things, and on other things if each of us is having a bad day we can drop back into the our "type negative persona" -- I can be sarcastic and apathetic , she can be dramatic and judgmental. She went off on my ass during a game session a month back over a misunderstanding on her part; but later she realized she was at fault, so she made an overt apology to me without me having to say anything... maturity is good at least for that much. There are things we can enjoy doing together, so...
 

viche

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#20
I disagree with the notion of INTP-ESTJ.

ESFJ might work, but you have to put in a lot of work on both sides. I prefer ENFJ.
ENFJ is even more work for the INTP, in both literal and figurative sense.

In literal sense both have weak sensing functions (only tertiary) so if you marry one they will look to you to do the greater load of the housework, or at least make the money so you can hire a maid to come by once a week.

In figurative sense, ENFJ's Ni is orthogonal and in opposition to INTP's Ne, and same can be said of their sensing functions, so here they don't really understand each other as well as do INTP and xSFJ, who share EVERY cognitive function in common.
 

OmoInisa

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#21
ENFJ is even more work for the INTP, in both literal and figurative sense.

In literal sense both have weak sensing functions (only tertiary) so if you marry one they will look to you to do the greater load of the housework, or at least make the money so you can hire a maid to come by once a week.

In figurative sense, ENFJ's Ni is orthogonal and in opposition to INTP's Ne, and same can be said of their sensing functions, so here they don't really understand each other as well as do INTP and xSFJ, who share EVERY cognitive function in common.
I agree with this. However the benefit of the shared functions (in opposite order) vs shared mode of perception is more ambiguous. I would maintain that on balance it's better to have shared functions, but the choice isn't simple.

Having intuition in different halves of the stack makes communication (and shared interests) challenging. But actual understanding, and therefore harmony, is better.
You do nonetheless essensially come from different places, and it takes maturity and self-knowledge to close the gap. If the two people share I/E, then they avoid adding a mismatched life rhythm to the challenge, and have an easier time of it.

Having the same mode of perception (shared N) is the opposite. Good communication and shared interests is more likely, but core understanding and psychic harmony is actually lacking.

All else being equal, no type match is without weaknesses. But a mature INTP should be happiest with either an INFJ or an ISFJ, though I believe ideally with an ISFJ.

An ESFP is the opposite end of the scale. Here you have the worst of all three worlds (mismatched pace of life, mismatched functions, mismatched cognitive modes).
 

Architect

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#22
Besides the professional sphere, an important role in the life of any ESFJ play active forms of leisure. Moreover, they are often preferred: gatherings of friends and family members, picnics, barbecues, hiking, rock climbing and camping trips, racing tracks, student groups and clubs of all times and all peoples (because there it's fun! and helps the community/country!), beaches, pools, gyms, theaters, concert halls, museums, sport competitions, ...j
I suspect this would be the biggest difficulty with the pairing. In long term relationships it seems much of the success or failure comes down to these kinds of quotidian differences.

In my observations of many INTPs the preferred leisure mode is time for contemplation and exploration, usually at home but also in low key events and traveling. This is also true for INFJ's which makes them a natural pair. Both INFJ's and INTP's tend to not be too favorable towards the events listed above, though INFJ's will have a preference towards more of that than the laid back semi anti-social INTP.

For most INTP's in my experience just ordinary daily life (work, shopping) is enough to top out our 'social buffer', add to that an ENFJ at home needing to do more of that? Where's the time for projects, thinking and researching? And likewise the ENFJ would wither with their reclusive INTP.

I don't know, I wouldn't rule it working out, but I'd give it long odds.
 

viche

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#23
f
I suspect this would be the biggest difficulty with the pairing. In long term relationships it seems much of the success or failure comes down to these kinds of quotidian differences.

In my observations of many INTPs the preferred leisure mode is time for contemplation and exploration, usually at home but also in low key events and traveling. This is also true for INFJ's which makes them a natural pair. Both INFJ's and INTP's tend to not be too favorable towards the events listed above, though INFJ's will have a preference towards more of that than the laid back semi anti-social INTP.
Those differences in lifestyles constitute the biggest challenge to the formation of dual, "ideal" according to socionics, couples. If one or the other dual overcomes the personal comfort barrier and manages to "bridge the gap", they usually have higher chances of finding their other half. Else, they get stuck dating people of similar "temperament" and frequently don't feel themselves completely fulfilled in their relationships (which leads to marriage-remarriage-divorces, etc. which of course take a heavy toll on the introverts).

If the INTP managed to "bridge the gap" and dualize with an ESFJ, the social activity of ESFJ doesn't get in any way, shape, or form forced upon the INTP. It's one of the most widespread misconceptions of Introverts about dating Extraverts: that the Extravert will "dump" all of their extraverted needs on them.

In actuality, what happens in E-I relationships (and I write from experience) is that the extraverted partner usually has many other hobbies, acquaintances, and engagements outside of the relationship, and can very well go out on their own if needed be. The Introvert doesn't need to fill in their every extraverted need. The Extravert may invite the introvert to go out with them, but if the introvert isn't feeling up to it the Extravert goes out on their own (and comes back with all kinds of juicy and entertaining stories to tell).

This creates a nice, balanced atmosphere for the Introvert, of course: in case he has been spending too much time alone, stagnating in his loneliness, and spending too much time in front of his computer, he can accept the Extravert's offer to go out and "come along"; while if he prefers to stay in, the Extravert has other friends to hang out with. This is a good deal for the introvert: he no longer has to "fend for himself" wrt to extraversion i.e. ensuring that he has some engagements, friends, and hobbies that go beyond his home - in and E-I pair the Extraverted partner provides for much of this.

For most INTP's in my experience just ordinary daily life (work, shopping) is enough to top out our 'social buffer', add to that an ENFJ at home needing to do more of that? Where's the time for projects, thinking and researching? And likewise the ENFJ would wither with their reclusive INTP.

I don't know, I wouldn't rule it working out, but I'd give it long odds.
The ESFJ doesn't add "more of that" to INTP's life - as a Sensing type, the ESFJ takes over the greater deal of everyday Sensing cares and concerns in this couple, which frees up a lot of time and energy for the INTP to do his research. As for socializing, ESFJs have circles of friends of their own and don't rely on the INTPs for this (Fe is one of their strong functions). The ESFJ however makes sure the INTP doesn't turn into an isolated, depressed hermit who lives by his computer by inviting them to go out to different events.

The ESFJ has a strong sensing function, so a lot of this ordinary daily work - like shopping, cooking dinners, setting up a new apartment or house, buying new sets of shoes and clothes, etc. - they take onto themselves. ESFJs are Sensing types, after all, everything that has to do with Sensing cares is what they enjoy doing and part of their natural strengths. They enjoy interacting with the physical environment - something the INTP would rather minimize or take care of as an afterthought.

Since the ESFJ being a Sensing type takes up the greater share of the Sensing functioning in the INTP-ESFJ pair, this frees up a lot of time and energy for the INTP to engage in his research and thinking - just as he wanted in the first place. In comparison, when the INTP lives alone, he has to take care of everything by his lonely self, relying only on his own efforts. However, sensing being his weak function, the INTP doesn't really want to engage in it, and often ends up simply skipping on and minimizing his own wishes and wants, and figure that he cannot afford to meet some of his dreams. Around a type that has strong Introverted Sensing, many the INTP's wishes and needs get met. Which again, releases the free time and energy for the INTP to become involved with what he's interested in. And that's how the sensing-intuitive optimization in these couples works.
 

Architect

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#24
Since the ESFJ being a Sensing type takes up the greater share of the Sensing functioning in the INTP-ESFJ pair ...
I guess, if it works out that way. Taking one example, the difficulty I see is that it's not as simple as "the extroverted partner goes out on their own". There are parties at the home, parties at other people's places, events they want to go to. With children it's worse of course as the activities are mostly shared.

These are hypotheticals, but I'll note that in practice most of the time people align on E/I S/N, so ES with ES, IN with IN and so forth. Likewise they usually differ on the last two. From people I know


  • ISFJ-ISTP Best configuration according to this and good marriage
  • INFJ-INTP Same (time two, we have friends in this setup)
  • ESFP-ISFP Misalignment on E/I, F/F and P/P, indeed while it's a stable marriage it has many problems
  • ESTJ-ESFP Full of fire and drama but a stable life-long marriage
  • ESTJ-ESFP Stable long term marriage
  • ENFP-INTJ With these two the ENFP doesn't 'take on' the share of the extroverted activities (they have kids); they do them all together. The INTJ just gets seriously introverted and lets' the ENFP take the show.
  • ISFJ-ISFP Stable relationship (for religious reasons), but I wouldn't call it happy or balanced
  • ISTJ-ESTJ Possibly ISTJ-ISTJ. Nice people but psychotically toxic to my mind. Their lives are wrapped up tight (too tight). If that wasn't enough they have an ISTJ kid (probably)


and so on ... my point is that I believe your argument can and does work in practice on occasion, but as noted by Keirsey in PUM II it more often follows the pattern above, which I observe in practice.
 

Crystabelle

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#25
As an ESFJ female married to an INTP male for 13 years (7 bad years & 2 separated) I would say if you're not already in a committed relationship with this combination, save yourself. Don't do it. It takes an enormous amount of effort and I'm my opinion, the INTP will give up on trying and leave the ESFJ emotionally high and dry. I kind of get it -- once the INTP convinces themselves there's no hope then probably nothing ESFJ does will change that. And why should the INTP keep trying if there's no point?

I believe the combination could be incredible. My INTP husband made me a better person in many ways but I don't think he'd say the same thing.

Better to save yourself the heartache.
 

OmoInisa

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#26
As an ESFJ female married to an INTP male for 13 years (7 bad years & 2 separated) I would say if you're not already in a committed relationship with this combination, save yourself. Don't do it. It takes an enormous amount of effort and I'm my opinion, the INTP will give up on trying and leave the ESFJ emotionally high and dry. I kind of get it -- once the INTP convinces themselves there's no hope then probably nothing ESFJ does will change that. And why should the INTP keep trying if there's no point?

I believe the combination could be incredible. My INTP husband made me a better person in many ways but I don't think he'd say the same thing.

Better to save yourself the heartache.
Are you able to expand on what your difficulties were?
What were the positives as compared to other relationships you've had?
Were you very much aligned in terms of values and background?
How did you end up together in the first place?
What did you see in him to make you prefer this awkward social misfit to guys who were perhaps more "eligible"?
What do you think he saw in you?

What's your view about better or worse type combinations?
 

baccheion

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#27
As an ESFJ female married to an INTP male for 13 years (7 bad years & 2 separated) I would say if you're not already in a committed relationship with this combination, save yourself. Don't do it. It takes an enormous amount of effort and I'm my opinion, the INTP will give up on trying and leave the ESFJ emotionally high and dry. I kind of get it -- once the INTP convinces themselves there's no hope then probably nothing ESFJ does will change that. And why should the INTP keep trying if there's no point?

I believe the combination could be incredible. My INTP husband made me a better person in many ways but I don't think he'd say the same thing.

Better to save yourself the heartache.
Yea, say more. It would be interesting to hear about this pairing from the "other side."

I personally can't stand ESFJs and would've never ended up in a relationship with one. I am glad I avoided that headache. Like or don't like, the incompatibility is clear.
 

OmoInisa

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#28
Yea, say more. It would be interesting to hear about this pairing from the "other side."

I personally can't stand ESFJs and would've never ended up in a relationship with one. I am glad I avoided that headache. Like or don't like, the incompatibility is clear.
I don't disagree about the incompatibility. But I think it helps us all to banish the closed and antagonistic mindset that's evolved through the proliferation of crude MBTI stereotypes.
Clearly an ESFJ (or what you see as an ESFJ) isn't right for you. But they're certainly right for another type or another person.

Speaking from my own relationship experience, an ESFJ is certainly easier to live with than an ENFJ. Which makes sense, due to the function alignment. But the ENFJ is a better mindmate.
An ENFJ makes a better friend than spouse.
The Ni-Se intensity that makes an NJ more alluring at first is also what makes a relationship with one more turbulent.
The nature of any relationship certainly bears the imprint of function dynamics.
 

Jennywocky

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#29
I dabbled with an ESFJ relationship in college. It was truly a love/hate thing. (Although obviously we were both far younger then, and had a lot to learn.)

One moment I thought I was head over heels, the next minute I would feel burning anger I rarely felt with anyone else. We were very much opposite, so it was good to draw me out of my natural self and expand, yet also would violate my principles and nature the next minute. I couldn't deal with the mercurial emotionalism in that particular relationship at the time. My natural position is "stasis/neutrality" and couldn't deal with someone at that time who needed to have everything spelled out in black and white and pursue said things and was also that emotive.
 

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#30
 

Jennywocky

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#31
This is why having cartoon characters manning suicide hotlines has historically been a bad idea.
 

OmoInisa

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#32
I dabbled with an ESFJ relationship in college. It was truly a love/hate thing. (Although obviously we were both far younger then, and had a lot to learn.)

One moment I thought I was head over heels, the next minute I would feel burning anger I rarely felt with anyone else. We were very much opposite, so it was good to draw me out of my natural self and expand, yet also would violate my principles and nature the next minute. I couldn't deal with the mercurial emotionalism in that particular relationship at the time. My natural position is "stasis/neutrality" and couldn't deal with someone at that time who needed to have everything spelled out in black and white and pursue said things and was also that emotive.
Yeah. That wrenching effect is the same with any Fe-dom I think. Avoid marrying your anima is what I'd say, particularly if you're a J-dom.
It would likely have been better if you'd both been more mature. But it would always be push/pull to an uncomfortable degree.
That effect is still there to a lesser but much more manageable extent with IFJs.

Have you had a serious relationship with an ENFJ though? It would be interesting to see whether you think that's more stable than an ESFJ relationship.
 

Jennywocky

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#33
Yeah. That wrenching effect is the same with any Fe-dom I think. Avoid marrying your anima is what I'd say, particularly if you're a J-dom.
It would likely have been better if you'd both been more mature. But it would always be push/pull to an uncomfortable degree.
That effect is still there to a lesser but much more manageable extent with IFJs.

Have you had a serious relationship with an ENFJ though? It would be interesting to see whether you think that's more stable than an ESFJ relationship.
I definitely have had more ENFJ friends and find them easer to communicate with. I actually was interested in one or two for awhile, but those guys had an extraversion that was hard for me to read. (For example, they seemed interested in me, the way we were connecting, but when I interacted with them more, I realized they were that way with everyone.) Maybe if I could get calibrated...
 

OmoInisa

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#34
I definitely have had more ENFJ friends and find them easer to communicate with. I actually was interested in one or two for awhile, but those guys had an extraversion that was hard for me to read. (For example, they seemed interested in me, the way we were connecting, but when I interacted with them more, I realized they were that way with everyone.) Maybe if I could get calibrated...
Ha ha. They're absolutely that way with everyone. It's very very easy to be sucked into the impression that you're an object of unique focus. They have a natural talent for that. It's just how they engage with the world. I think it's the Ni that globalises their Fe affect.

That's all fine and dandy at a significant psychological distance. But it becomes very problematic (at least for me) in a relationship when I expect a certain emotional exclusivity.

Regarding the higher number of ENFJ friends, yep. Shared N makes that likely.
My "best friend" at university was an ENFJ female. I had a mad crush on her, and was bitterly frustrated when she met her now husband in final year.
In hindsight and with life experience, I'm satisfied that we were and always would be better as friends than as a couple.
 

Crystabelle

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#35
Are you able to expand on what your difficulties were?
What were the positives as compared to other relationships you've had?
Were you very much aligned in terms of values and background?
How did you end up together in the first place?
What did you see in him to make you prefer this awkward social misfit to guys who were perhaps more "eligible"?
What do you think he saw in you?

What's your view about better or worse type combinations?
What were the positives as compared to other relationships you've had?

Sorry. I tried to answer this but I'm probably not exactly understanding the question. I can't really think of general blanket positives compared to other relationships.

Were you very much aligned in terms of values and background?

Yes, actually. I honestly used to think we were totally compatible due to our individual histories. We were raised in the same church since children. His dad is a minister and did our marriage counseling. We actually rarely argue or disagree on child rearing and almost never disagree about finances. I think those "normal" reasons marriages don't work aren't our problem. We're both conservative christians, the babies of our families, and raised by middle-income parents.

How did you end up together in the first place?

I've read everything I can find about INTP's. There was one website that discussed the INTP - ENFJ relationship and how it happens. I think it was so spot on. We started dating when he was so young (I'm 3 years older). We dated for 4 years. He didn't want to commit because he didn't want to marry until he was 25 but I cut him off and told him I couldn't keep waiting and needed to move on with my life if he wasn't sure about us. A few months later, he came back and said he was ready.

I think my being everything he wasn't was very alluring. And his being undeveloped and not understanding himself is probably the reason he caved in to me. IDK. Just my guess. We used to have a lot of fun together. He can always make me laugh and I think he's the most intelligent person I know.

What did you see in him to make you prefer this awkward social misfit to guys who were perhaps more "eligible"?

Oh my goodness! Where do I start. I don't think I can even really explain it.

He has the ability to make you feel like the only person that exists. I think when an INTP loves you, they will go to extremes to show you but they'll even go above and beyond if you're just friends. On our first "date" (b/c at this time he was only 18, I was 21, and we were only just becoming friends and not really dating", he literally brought me a tiara because I was a princess, borrowed his brothers 8 Series BMW, drove me to another city to the fanciest dinner I had ever had, and took me to see Les Miserables -- opening my eyes to this whole new world. Seriously? How was I to resist that? He did things like that.

And he was brilliant and funny. He still is. And I knew he'd be a good provider. Yes, he always seemed a bit awkward in certain social environments. I felt like I needed to be his buffer or help teach him how to not ignore visitors we had or seem oblivious to certain social courtesies but the amazing life he opened my eyes to and having the privilege of getting a special piece of him -- that inner part of his mind being open to me -- felt like the grandest gift.

INTPs can be incredible. I don't know how to put it into words but it was like he was this heavily guarded secret garden that nobody was allowed in let alone even peek through the door. Getting that peek or getting let inside was an incredible honor and made me feel more special than I ever had before.

What do you think he saw in you?

I think he saw all these odd things in me that weren't familiar and they intrigued to him. I think I was fascinating and new. Maybe something to conquer, IDK. But most of those things seem to be annoyances to him now. I suppose I do the same thing to him to an extent. Maybe we all do this once the "new" wears off. He said he knew I'd be a good mother and that was important to him.

What's your view about better or worse type combinations?

I believe any combination is better and I'm not just being dramatic. I feel like INTP & ESFJ are literally the worst possible combination. I think if I had even 1 letter he has, we might have been able to make this work.

This is all just my opinion of course. Does that help & answer your questions?
 

Crystabelle

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Yea, say more. It would be interesting to hear about this pairing from the "other side."

I personally can't stand ESFJs and would've never ended up in a relationship with one. I am glad I avoided that headache. Like or don't like, the incompatibility is clear.
Hi Baccheion

I find your statement "I personally can't stand ESFJs" a bit close-minded and insensitive but I'm going to assume you did not mean it in an offensive way and were simply stating a fact. Is that correct? Surely, you must know even within INTPs, ESFJs, and every personality type for that matter are a lot of variety and variance.

Having said that, I think I can understand how you would lean that way. You don't get us and we probably seem shallow. And, honestly, maybe we are a lot of the time. I have been trying to develop my N & T sides. It's a struggle but I hope I wouldn't be one of those that you "can't stand." What is it that you hate about us?

As far as hearing more from the "other side" I'm happy to elaborate but what would you like to know. I have 13 total years married. 7 relatively bad ones (in my eyes at least). There's a lot of info there and I'd hate to bore you or make you want to jump off a bridge by going all F on you.
 

Crystabelle

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I dabbled with an ESFJ relationship in college. It was truly a love/hate thing. (Although obviously we were both far younger then, and had a lot to learn.)

One moment I thought I was head over heels, the next minute I would feel burning anger I rarely felt with anyone else. We were very much opposite, so it was good to draw me out of my natural self and expand, yet also would violate my principles and nature the next minute. I couldn't deal with the mercurial emotionalism in that particular relationship at the time. My natural position is "stasis/neutrality" and couldn't deal with someone at that time who needed to have everything spelled out in black and white and pursue said things and was also that emotive.
Wow. This could have been a statement from my husband. Hearing it from another INTP makes me sad, though. I want to believe there is always hope, people can change and grow. You know -- the whole "where there's a will there's a way" thing. I want to convince him of this too. The fact that you so dislike the very things that make me me but you don't even know me is disheartening. I feel like I'd need to be on psychotics to level my personality out enough to be somebody an INTP would like. But, the truth is, I like that I get extremely passionate and excited about things. I like that I'm emotive and I easily make other people feel my positive emotions. The part I don't like (probably the part you're mostly referring to) is that I have the flip-side with negative emotions, too. Believe me, I truly wish I didn't. If an ESFJ listens to all the things INTPs don't value and find annoying about them, it can really make an ESFJ begin to question their character and entire being. I often think, "I don't think I'm crazy or a liar but I don't think my INTP husband is crazy or a liar. But if he says X and I say Z then one of us has to be wrong." I'm beginning to question all my thoughts and feelings and beliefs. After all, he's supposed to be the logical, factual one, right?

It's really quite a discombobulating mind trip.
 

Crystabelle

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#38
Questions for INTPs

It sort of blows my mind that there is an INTP forum filled with INTPs who actual interact and share their thoughts. How is this possible? Isn't thought-sharing one of your least favorite things? What motivated you to seek out a place like this in the first place?
 

Crystabelle

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What's with the threads with guides to ESFJ's and relationship goals and shit like that. I don't see why you would want to be in a relationship with people like that. Most of the ESFJs I've met resulted in me extremely disliking them. The only one I don't hate is my mom (if she wasn't my mom I'm pretty I would dislike her too, regardless about the genuine care she has for me).

I may be overgeneralizing but ESFJ's are pretty dumb, drama queens, and always have the need to gossip. Their whole life revolves around petty gossip and materialistic values.

If you're going to take relationships with MBTI I think the ENFJ is a way better "soulmate" for the INTP rather than the drama queen of petty gossip (although they're usually extremely nice and caring people they're stupidity drives me off, so easily brainwashed and they will stick to their brainwashed ideology no matter how stupid it is).
Nihilmatic,

In what way are ESFJs "dumb"? How are you judging this?
 

OmoInisa

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#40
Questions for INTPs

It sort of blows my mind that there is an INTP forum filled with INTPs who actual interact and share their thoughts. How is this possible? Isn't thought-sharing one of your least favorite things? What motivated you to seek out a place like this in the first place?
Thanks for joining our little cave Crystabelle. I really hope you stick around, even if you only check in every now and again.

I'll first address the despair you expressed in your previous post. as Jenny noted, she and her ESFJ were both kids really. An INTP and an ESFJ are definitely on different planets at that age. There would have been little intersection of interests, and the emotional largess of the ESFJ would have been deeply unsettling. There would have been little appreciation on either side of their different ways of grasping hold of reality.

I had a relationship with an ESFJ in my late-20s, and while the outlines were recognisable from Jenny's post, we were both further on from that point of total mutual alienation. Her Fe modus operandi (her basic need to push out socially and emotionally) was still a little too much for me though. And I don't think it ever would be sufficiently comfortable.
However, even then, I was firmly aware of the the strange 'settledness' and psychological tranquility of the relationship.

My relationship with an ENFJ a few years later was a bit different. We had more interests in common to toss between us. And that was great. But while the ESFJ felt like an exasperating and needy chatterbox that never stopped chattering and nagging away, the issues with the ENFJ were actually more fundamentally troubling. It became apparent, most particularly in the death throes of the relationship, that the things I thought we saw the same were actually rather illusory. Her preferred approach to life, and the aspects of reality she valued, were alarmingly different from mine. There was a psychological alienation I didn't feel with the ESFJ.
It seems to me very much that with the ESFJ there was greater core similarity under
greater surface difference, and with the ENFJ there was greater core difference hidden under greater surface similarity.

For what it's worth, I suspect you'd find an ENTP much more compatible than you find the INTP. A lot of the issues here I think are due to the fact that while the ingredients are ideal (shared cognitive functions), the polarity is too extreme. The polarity with an ENTP would be more conducive.

Regarding why we gather here, I think community is a basic human need; I don't care what type you are. It is enjoyable to discuss topics of interest with those who share those interests, and even better that they have a similar mental framework.
The personality types with Fe in their type map (this includes both INTPs and ESFJs) do have a greater appreciation for community though I think.

The core subject matter is of course MBTI. You'll see all sorts of random threads about eccentric topics. Many of the fluff threads betray the fact that the user base is fairly young. There are many still in their teens. And not everyone here is actually INTP. There are some who are not INTP and are aware of it, and there are others who assume themselves INTP but are not.

All are welcome. ESFJs are rare here though. I think that's partly due to the daft type chauvinism that's traditional (though changing as the community grows into a more sophisticated understanding of type) in online MBTI forums.
It's also partly due to the simple fact that ESFJs are disposed towards the physical world of people and things, rather than a conceptual world of abstract discussion.
You have much to offer the forum. I look forward to seeing more of you.
 

Crystabelle

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#41
I appreciate the welcome and I think I will stick around. I'd like to gather more insight into the INTP world -- especially as it might apply to my current relationship but also as it lends to a general broadening of my understanding & perspective.
 

Crystabelle

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#43
Sensitivity is a waste of time and energy.
Because I can draw on the many years hearing my husband say things like this and trying to understand him better, I think you are probably completely serious. There are few statemenst that sounds more bizarre to me.

I find you all very intriguing -- as I'm sure many ESFJs do, it's like a spell you guys can cast. But saying "sensitivity is a waste of time and energy" feels like "everything you (ESFJ) are built from is pointless and worthless." Hence -- why INTPs & ESFJs are, in my opinion, the absolute worst fit for a long-term relationship.

1) Is this how all INTPs feel?

2) Are sensitivities and feelings something you guys can learn to appreciate or is toleration the most that can be hoped for?
 

Turnevies

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#44
Because I can draw on the many years hearing my husband say things like this and trying to understand him better, I think you are probably completely serious. There are few statemenst that sounds more bizarre to me.

I find you all very intriguing -- as I'm sure many ESFJs do, it's like a spell you guys can cast. But saying "sensitivity is a waste of time and energy" feels like "everything you (ESFJ) are built from is pointless and worthless." Hence -- why INTPs & ESFJs are, in my opinion, the absolute worst fit for a long-term relationship.

1) Is this how all INTPs feel?

2) Are sensitivities and feelings something you guys can learn to appreciate or is toleration the most that can be hoped for?

1) We don't 'feel' what is worth our time and energy, we think about it. Probably many things you read here may come of stronger than they were actually meant. We may have the 'filter' in our ears that a person like you has at their mouths instead.

2)Emotions yes, as we are not entirely machines after all. We just don't like to make decisions based on them. Sensitivities? probably there must be some example where I find them valid, but I cannot think of one at the moment. See again the 'filter' part. Anyhow, communication goes much more efficient if you can say anything without having to worry about the possibility of the other person feeling hurt.
 

Crystabelle

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#45
Do INTPs generally find it annoying for people to send them self-help material? And if so, why?

Ex: My husband and I have the same religious beliefs. If I read something encouraging or helpful, my first instinct is to share it with people I care about because it might encourage or help them. I asked my INTP husband if I could send him scriptures and he said no. (I've sent him other items like INTP articles and although he's given me little to no feedback, he said he actually reads it. Not sure if he appreciates it or reads out of a sense of duty.) Hope would this make you INTPs feel?
 
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#46
As I see it, ESFJ / INTP partnership is destroy session
Intp are not honest or open about their feelings
ESFJ need to understand feelings
The locked up INTP mode will always be seen as a live and let die while ESFJ push will be seen as evil because it goes contrary to the trend, it won't let u live but it won't kill u either. Its an infinite loop of pain
INTP match with types that pay little attention to feeling stuff. Like Te Doms or TP types. With FPs it can go fine for a while but they will get tired of the passivity and silence.
 

Grayman

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#47
Do INTPs generally find it annoying for people to send them self-help material? And if so, why?

Ex: My husband and I have the same religious beliefs. If I read something encouraging or helpful, my first instinct is to share it with people I care about because it might encourage or help them. I asked my INTP husband if I could send him scriptures and he said no. (I've sent him other items like INTP articles and although he's given me little to no feedback, he said he actually reads it. Not sure if he appreciates it or reads out of a sense of duty.) Hope would this make you INTPs feel?
It depends of course. It could be taken as an insult if they were not already looking for help. In this case, giving them a self help book is a clear indication that you think something is wrong with them and expect them to change instead of respecting their independent right to mold themselves.

If i tell a person my problems, i am generally seeking help and no so much just comfort and I would be appreciative of such things.
 

Serac

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#48
Because I can draw on the many years hearing my husband say things like this and trying to understand him better, I think you are probably completely serious. There are few statemenst that sounds more bizarre to me.

I find you all very intriguing -- as I'm sure many ESFJs do, it's like a spell you guys can cast. But saying "sensitivity is a waste of time and energy" feels like "everything you (ESFJ) are built from is pointless and worthless." Hence -- why INTPs & ESFJs are, in my opinion, the absolute worst fit for a long-term relationship.

1) Is this how all INTPs feel?

2) Are sensitivities and feelings something you guys can learn to appreciate or is toleration the most that can be hoped for?
I knew this ESFJ once, and I noticed that the most minute of things, like the tone with which I said something, could evoke severe emotions and judgments in her. It is quite a bizarre experience from the standpoint of an INTP, because you would have to smash an INTP in the face with a sledgehammer to evoke the same kind of reaction. I typically don't have an emotional reaction to anything anyone says because everything I hear is passed through a logical filter. So with this ESFJ, I eventually realized that it would be impossible for me to be with her in the long run; I would have to tip-toe around her and expend considerable amounts of energy thinking about what can and cannot be said. I would definitely have to curb my sense of humor, for example, which is quite a terrible way to live. I cannot fathom how long-term INTP/ESFJ relationships even exist.
 

Kuu

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#49
Questions for INTPs

It sort of blows my mind that there is an INTP forum filled with INTPs who actual interact and share their thoughts. How is this possible? Isn't thought-sharing one of your least favorite things?
On the contrary, INTPs love thought-sharing. The issue is that most people don't seem interested in it, at least not to the degree the INTP does. After sufficient conversation derailments, fallacies, and getting talked over, the INTP just prefers to sit back and observe unless there is a sense his thoughts will be well received. But have you never seen the conversation explosion in small groups of NTs??

It's not that INTPs are anti-social. It's like talking in a foreign language nobody seems to understand. You'd quickly realize its pointless so you just shut up, unless you find a rare fellow foreigner or the occasional bad bilingual.

The sense of alienation is such that many unironically identify as robots rather than humans.

1) Is this how all INTPs feel?

2) Are sensitivities and feelings something you guys can learn to appreciate or is toleration the most that can be hoped for?
Sensitivity *is* a drain of time and energy... to the INTP. Because it is unnatural to the INTP. Feeling is our weakest function so it is severely rationed. People that are in constant need of sensitivity seem overly demanding of us and rather selfish, taking all of our precious little feeling reserves to coddle themselves, while not letting us get on with our straighforward dispassionate conversations. One could say its very insensitive of them... (this can easily be extrapolated to the entire extraverts being pushy on introverts issue, not just feeling).

Of course a more mature INTP can appreciate it and even engage in it.

Do INTPs generally find it annoying for people to send them self-help material? And if so, why?
Fuck yes it would be infuriating. You're essentially implying that I *need* help. Introverts, and INTPs in particularly, spend most of their youth surviving from ostracizing and being told they're failures, weird, mentally damaged, socially inept, etc... so that most are likely to be heavily irritated by any implication that they need help (even if at times they do). Also the loner aspect; if I have a problem I'll deal with it myself, and nobody knows more about me than myself...

Besides lots of self-help material seems superficial and based on shitty pop-psych and essentially boils down to "just stop being INTP you silly!"

Regarding scripture: have you ever considered the possibility that your husband just isn't religious anymore, just going through the motions?
 

Grayman

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#50
I find 'sensitivity' intriguing in the same way you find INTPs intriguing. I believe there is value in sensitivity. While i feel it a waste of time for me to express my feelings, I respect that others have different needs and are effected by these things in a different way.

Thinking on this further, sometimes I forget to take care of my emotional needs because I have a tendency to forget its importance. My wife can sometimes seek out those deeply hidden emotions and bring them to the surface where they can be dealt with. She is very good at tearing diwn those emotional barriers I didnt even know existed. In a sense she makes me more human and reminds me that I am not actually the essense of objectivity but very much still subjective. She reminds me that believing that i am logical is a trap. It isnt possible to be logical only rational.

There is value in human relationships but i have a tendency to introvert and get lost in the world in my mind not wanting to come out. Without my wife to bring me out of that shell I likely would have disappeared into the void of depression, seclusion, and nihilism. I care very little about what MBTI says about relationships good or bad. I love my wife and i am greatful to her for the 10 years we have been married. I know she right for me because i love her and overall marriage has been good for us eventhough there were a few rough years.
 
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