intj - want to explore intp perfection of knowledge ....

[e30sequel]

Howdy folks

Noitced that all the intp's present elsewhere are nothing short of deeply astounding. Aside from the inaction, which I am sure can be improved, I find that the intp 'refines' the same knowledge I always seek. The knowledge shared is usually deep enough to actually stop an intj from speaking, which is pretty ....astounding. Anyway, want to absorb as much as possible from you guys and looking forward to simply learning from the mastery of the intp.

 

[DetachedRetina]

What if I told you an INTP is not a machine into which you put compliments and out from which you receive deep insights? (With a photo of Morpheus)

No but really, what topics are you looking to discuss?

 

[Da Blob]

Hmmft! You say that now, wait three or four years...

We do have some amazing archives, that besides containing 4,500 of my previous comments contain an untold number of astute observations made by other members, not to mention an untold number of asinine comments as well...

So It Goes...

Anyway, if there is not a topic of interest to you amongst the New Posts, an old thread of interest can be dusted off and brought out of "The Stacks"

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

hahahaha, ok, man, you're funny

XD

 

[Eido]

Guys!!! Who let the INTJ in here? I told you to keep the door closed!!

 

[e30sequel]

Awwww Shucks,
It would seem that there are many faces to the 'P' defectors mein herr. I would like to study the thought mechanics of ze elusive mr P finger. Jokes aside, that would be the purpose of me visit.

 

[MissQuote]

What if I told you an INTP is not a machine into which you put compliments and out from which you receive deep insights? (With a photo of Morpheus)

No but really, what topics are you looking to discuss?

This is about what I thought when I read this earlier today. Not really completely, but I thought something about over complimenting and didn't really finish the thought because I saw your post and it was sufficient.

Anyway. My thought of the day (which I am not going to bother with explaining how I reached it or what it may imply [if anything] or why it is probably ludicrous and wrong utterly because I am going to bed now to finish reading my book and don't really feel like bothering right now and I am am really just being lazy and using this as a place to say it instead of making a topic going over it all) thought:

The Grandfather Paradox does nothing but describe the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

*how profound of me!**right*

Oh yeah. Hi.

 

[DetachedRetina]

My half baked hippy-idea for the day is this:

Imagine trying to draw a cube on a piece of paper (2D), and then a 4D cube on a piece of paper, and then a 5D cube etc. Eventually all you would be able to recognize is a bunch of lines and dots.

This is what we are basically seeing all the time when we try to observe things beyond our comprehension. We see all the stars but can't see the constellations. We just can't decide what the pattern is.

But as I said, sort of half baked and doesn't really make sense.

 

[nexion]

Whether or not anyone says something that has meaning to you goes far beyond any constructed type.

 

[e30sequel]

Wow,
Did not really come here with expectations other than to learn and perhaps engage in some ......whatever. Now about the compliments, I have Read posts by intp's and I was drawn to the manner in which it was relayed. I have engaged a few and again, just blown away. So, compliments were genuine and sincere without conditions.
In my life, I am usually in a 'hurry' to understand stuff so I can apply it. You guys on the other hand, just want the knowledge for the sake of knowledge. It is obvious that I am on the same wavelength, the intp is just so much more thorough, refined, and it was something I wanted to assimilate.
Thanks for whatever you guys happen to share and, once I have looked through the site, look forward to starting some new topics I hope you guys will find interesting and worth your time.

 

[Vidi]

I wonder how many INTP's doubt if they are INTP's (still testing, reading, second-questioning themselves, or refuting it all together). If it would be true that everyone doubts he/she is an INTP, and those who don't doubt become suspect/~cious of not being INTP... then possibly your compliments are addressed to non existant group of people
..or.. imagined creatures..well.. I don't know, but I think you just complimented unicorns then

 

[RockinLollipop]

We *keep* INTJ's from talking? I thought they didn't really talk, anyway.

 

[Coolydudey]

My half baked hippy-idea for the day is this:

Imagine trying to draw a cube on a piece of paper (2D), and then a 4D cube on a piece of paper, and then a 5D cube etc. Eventually all you would be able to recognize is a bunch of lines and dots.

This is what we are basically seeing all the time when we try to observe things beyond our comprehension. We see all the stars but can't see the constellations. We just can't decide what the pattern is.

But as I said, sort of half baked and doesn't really make sense.

Actually, this implies that a better suited (and or more complicated) framework would be better for thinking about the problem at hand. I.e. trying to visualise a cube on a piece of paper, is not hard, but it's impossible to project it onto a line with any meaning... So the more complicated space we used (2D vs 1D) allowed us to easier and better understand an even more complicated object. So the framework you analyse a problem under is important as well.

 

[pernoctator]

but it's impossible to project it onto a line with any meaning...

Binary / Morse code = 1 dimensional.

 

[e30sequel]

I wonder how many INTP's doubt if they are INTP's (still testing, reading, second-questioning themselves, or refuting it all together). If it would be true that everyone doubts he/she is an INTP, and those who don't doubt become suspect/~cious of not being INTP... then possibly your compliments are addressed to non existant group of people
..or.. imagined creatures..well.. I don't know, but I think you just complimented unicorns then

Maybe I have seen mature and well developed intp's and again, was impressed. Read about it and was further impressed. I did notice the issue of 'doubt' is pretty rampant here. What exactly is it that holds you back? Can you provide an explanation...... Is doubt a common theme for the intp population? Interested in understanding.
Also, how do you guys feel about intj's? Feel free to be honest.

 

[e30sequel]

We *keep* INTJ's from talking? I thought they didn't really talk, anyway.

Personally have no problem talking to people if they initiate it. The rest I ignore because they either get threatened/offended or get aggressive because they are stupid AND violent.
Then come in the intp, with the thorough thought processes and general mastery of what they wish to relay, and THIS stuns the intj into silence (of respect and admiration). Again rarely happens to me but when it does, I stop and listen.

Have you had any interactions with intj's??

 

[RockinLollipop]

Have you had any interactions with intj's??

I have. But mostly online, and it would be difficult to portray this stunned silence through text.

 

[MichiganJFrog]

I did notice the issue of 'doubt' is pretty rampant here. What exactly is it that holds you back?

I just asked that the other day. I forget what the answer was.

I could be an INTP, or I could be an HSP, or both, or neither. Or it could be ADD, or SAD, or NVLD, or PDD. Then there's birth order. I'm the baby of the family, and they say we hate making decisions. So, yeah, to sum up, I really have no clue who I am or what I'm doing here.

 

[e30sequel]

^^ I can understand, lotsa (very viable) variables. I have tested intj repeatedly with slight variations. Remember being this way since childhood.

 

[Synthetix]

I want to dissect an INTJ.

 

[e30sequel]

My wording would warrant that type of reaction, understandable. But I admit that is my objective (in a loving way) .....

I am open to quesitons.

 

[Synthetix]

Tell me about yourself; age, gender, height, weight, bfp, political beliefs, do you have pets?

 

[MissQuote]

^^ I can understand, lotsa (very viable) variables. I have tested intj repeatedly with slight variations. Remember being this way since childhood.

Very Viable Variables. Nice.

I just asked that the other day. I forget what the answer was.

I could be an INTP, or I could be an HSP, or both, or neither. Or it could be ADD, or SAD, or NVLD, or PDD. Then there's birth order. I'm the baby of the family, and they say we hate making decisions. So, yeah, to sum up, I really have no clue who I am or what I'm doing here.

I find birth order dynamics interesting, and something I would like to know more about about.

 

[Coolydudey]

Binary / Morse code = 1 dimensional.

Binary is 1 dimensional, and that's why you need a lot of binary to make a picture.... Imagine yourself trying to decode that jpeg ino a picture!

 

[Vidi]

It is self typing, however you look at it. That's enough for me to loose my sleep.

I don't think that there are any INTJ's in my immediate environment, unless I am INTJ myself, who knows anyway.. but I looked around in INTJ 's forum. Odd thing, even their topic titles look like a list of bullet points.

 

[Words]

Maybe I have seen mature and well developed intp's and again, was impressed. Read about it and was further impressed. I did notice the issue of 'doubt' is pretty rampant here. What exactly is it that holds you back? Can you provide an explanation...... Is doubt a common theme for the intp population? Interested in understanding.

It's systematical. The INTP's thought process involves connecting things via 'real' abstract relationships. "Real" in the sense that it's not dependent on perspective. There are innate objective similarities between objects(ex. 6 and 4 are divisible by 2), and these relationships, which are often ignored or invisible to Se, Ni and Si-dom types, guide the INTP's thinking. But in order to accurately find and use these relationships to gain more knowledge, the INTP has to have very precise and crucially accurate grasp on the axioms. That is where the usefulness of doubt comes in. If the INTP fails to grasp the first assumption(or the first set of definition), then the INTP will be unable or fail to find the next true definition. It's like math. One error in one value leads to the error of the entire system. This is why the INTP is the mathematician and the computer scientist.

Axioms limits possibilities and creates other Axioms. A non-axiom implies an infinite amount of possible relationship and cannot lead to other discoveries.

Certainty is needed to find necessary relationships. And necessary relationships are valuable to understanding.

Needless to say, it also depends on intelligence and confidence.

Also, how do you guys feel about intj's? Feel free to be honest.

Really depends on the individual. The conclusive ones are hard to communicate with because they keep trying to assume that they understand what I'm trying to say. Then there are assholes(same with INTPs though), then there are some really nice INTJ's.

 

[Architect]

Also, how do you guys feel about intj's? Feel free to be honest.

Criticisms
No sense of humor. I try not to argue with them because often they'll make some flawed analysis, then, in their attempt to drive to a conclusion, convince themselves they are right and 'own' me in the process (in their own minds at least). This stems from the desire to get to an answer, so they often/sometimes reach immature conclusions. Thus they can be prone to 'win the battle but lose the war'.

Strengths
Will actually get something done.

 

[nedenom]

I did notice the issue of 'doubt' is pretty rampant here. What exactly is it that holds you back? Can you provide an explanation...... Is doubt a common theme for the intp population?

Once you stop doubting you also stop looking for alternatives. Constant search of better alternatives is a driving force in an INTP I guess, hence there will always be doubt. It can also be one of the INTP's greatest assets, if utilized properly.

 

[e30sequel]

It's systematical. ..... the INTP has to have very precise and crucially accurate grasp on the axioms. ...... It's like math. One error in one value leads to the error of the entire system.

So when an axiom has failed an intp, this is when they get into an increasing 'funk' until either the axiom is replaced or depression sets in!?
I understand now how it is systematic but that crucial axiom has to be very stable. But that creates a problem when that base is religion for example?? From what I have seen, both intj and intp get idiosyncratic about this one topic and systems and logic goes out the window when it comes down to it. The 'system' happens PROVIDED this contested point IS ACCEPTED and they get all calm and collected after.

Axioms limits possibilities and creates other Axioms. A non-axiom implies an infinite amount of possible relationship and cannot lead to other discoveries.

This throws me off a little. So instead of the regular 'keeping your options open' and never 'closing' common to the P, you guys create these options via doubt to satisfy the P, and proceed to get another axiom with which to start a new clean process?? Something like a plan b, c, d etc (just endless unless mature and well developed etc)
How can this be used to your advantage in a work setting for example??

 

[MissQuote]

How can this be used to your advantage in a work setting for example??

LOL

 

[MissQuote]

 

[Words]

Once you stop doubting you also stop looking for alternatives. Constant search of better alternatives is a driving force in an INTP I guess, hence there will always be doubt. It can also be one of the INTP's greatest assets, if utilized properly.

I think knowledge is dealt with differently by Ni-Se types. They can deal with dynamic meanings in that they can accept things "lightly" in one interpretation, but at the same are constantly thinking up of other interpretations or answers. Things are never really "set" for them it seems. It's pretty confusing for the rigid Si-thinking, but i think it can work as effectively. So, doubt's importance is lessened.

This throws me off a little. So instead of the regular 'keeping your options open' and never 'closing' common to the P, you guys create these options via doubt to satisfy the P, and proceed to get another axiom with which to start a new clean process?? Something like a plan b, c, d etc (just endless unless mature and well developed etc)
How can this be used to your advantage in a work setting for example??

Doubt is for finding "better plans", yes. But the point of the "plan" is a cognitive one, the purpose is to allow abstract relationships to surface.

The advantage is that, with a better plan, you can do more with less effort. Efficiency.

Religion can be very principled, so it is not difficult to find axioms or strictly set rule. yeah, there are only systems when there are strict definitions.

 

[DetachedRetina]

Binary / Morse code = 1 dimensional.

exactly, my point I think was more that if you looked at a 2d projection of a 7d cube (or a binary string of points that represents vertices and angles etc.) you wouldn't be able to recognize it as a 7d cube.

By that logic, I wonder how much more of the world would make sense to us if we were very able to perceive patterns in things that are not obvious.

How many "7d cubes" are we missing out on because we see them as a jumble of lines and points. (Maybe now I'm taking the analogy too far)

What I want to know is whether the bottleneck in our understanding comes from the number of observations we make or from our ability to process them.

I think our ability to perceive connections in things is limited.

 

[DetachedRetina]

More on-topic though,

I think the INTP is innately curious about what the "truth" is in the way that an SP is innately curious about experiences. It is not necessarily useful, it is just a personality trait.

In fact, INTJs are probably much more useful to society. *Ducks to avoid rotten tomatoes being thrown* INTPs can be great at poking holes in logically constructed theories though, so the INTP-INTJ team can be quite useful.

 

[nexion]

It is perfectly possible to "know" the higher dimensions through understanding of the lower dimensions and the shadow the higher dimension leaves on the lower dimensions. But it is damn hard.

 

[DetachedRetina]

yeah, so hard

 

[e30sequel]

I thank you for your contributions, many interesting topics to absorb.....have a little bit of a compass to navigate better

 

[Silphiums]

More on-topic though,

the INTP-INTJ team can be quite useful.

I work for, and am married to, INTJs and can attest to the truth in that statement.
I boil it down to function vs finish.
Example 1. (work) I have a vision of (won't bore you with details but let's say a landscape plan) that will revolutionize the way our org will be seen to the community. The INTJ's first question: do you think the path should be crushed gravel or brick (true story)...
Example 2. (home) we take down a pool in the backyard to make a fire pit. The is a large flat circle of sand. I measure out the four cardinal directions, get the exact center, and dig a nice hole. That night I throw in some logs to start a fire. The INTJ comes running down yelling at me to stop. His first comment: what are you doing? We can't have a fire until it is all finished.

Function vs finish.

It's nice to have a balance otherwise I'd still be making fires in a washed out piled of sand as opposed to our lovely, finished fire pit.