Intellectual and spiritual dumbing down

[Invoke Ninja's True Power]

I am tired of having to do this. I have to dumb myself down intellectually for the common people. Spiritually I have to dumb myself down to deal with the intellectual types. The second I mention a "drug" or something that might have some spiritual insight or wisdom I get scoffed or laughed at. Sick of it all. I understand skepticism but science is not able to explain everything. We know next to nothing about the human brain. Brute strength is not superior to intellect. Everything has its uses but to say one thing is superior to another is ignorant.

edit: I am not a subscriber to any one specific religion as I think they all have values and concepts that can be learned from. Besides, one religion is too confining and restrictive.

I wasn't sure where to post this thread, feel free to move it to a different category if it fits better somewhere else.

 

[Morel Panic]

Spiritually I have to dumb myself down to deal with the intellectual types. The second I mention a "drug" or something that might have some spiritual insight or wisdom I get scoffed or laughed at. Sick of it all. I understand skepticism but science is not able to explain everything. We know next to nothing about the human brain

You make a good point here. There is so much left to discover, much of which is beyond human capacity: Dimensions we don't fully experience; the "soul"'s link to the mind; infinity; the nature of universe at and before singularity (um... not the kind with the robots though ). These are all things that science not only has not yet explained but, by definition can never explain. Science is about the logical observation of reality as we experience it, and at some point we reach the limits of our reality experience and thus, the limits of science as well.

 

[GarmGarf]

edit: I am not a subscriber to any one specific religion as I think they all have values and concepts that can be learned from. Besides, one religion is too confining and restrictive..

It might be worth a shot investigating the religion "Unitarian Universalism".

 

[Cogwulf]

The only thing I hate more than ignorance is closed mindedness. I can at least try to forgive ignorance because I do believe that ignorance can sometimes be bliss. But no one has any excuse to be closed minded, especially intelligent people.
Closed-mindedness in intelligent people is a result of arrogance, they understand science and so think science is always right, so everything that science doesn't explain is wrong.

I don't believe in a god, but the only piece of evidence I choose to base my decision on is that the universe appears to be totally based on random events. I hate it when I see atheists saying things like they don't believe in god because "It's too ridiculous to be true".
I suppose that some people would call me an agnostic because I accept the possibility of a god

 

[Vrecknidj]

When you say "the universe appears to be totally based on random events," what is it that you mean?

I can think of a few things, but for all I know, none of them might be what you intended.

1) There was some random event (or events) that started the universe, since then, natural laws have remained consistent (hence science and knowledge and the like can proceed). So in this case, the random events were the initiating events.

2) The law-like nature of reality is an illusion and what seems to be regularity is simply coincidence. Every event is random.

3) Whether or not the initial conditions were set randomly, there is a background radiation, as it were, of pure randomness, and this continually imparts unpredictability into reality. All natural laws and the apparent regularity of the world are approximations that must be considered relative to this over-powering (if subtle) background truth of randomness.

Or something else.

I'm not really sure what you meant (though I like the rest of what you said--good points).

Dave

 

[Agent Intellect]

I am a big advocate of science, but even I will admit that science has limits, as well as the human mind. What I don't care for, however, is the defeatist attitude of calling something 'unexplainable' and giving up all hope of understanding a certain phenomenon, thereby halting further exploration. Imagine if our ancient ancestors had believed the universe to be 'unexplainable' and simply never attempted to break the barriers of their own ignorance? Approaching the large chasms in our current knowledge with a sense of wonder and curiosity is the only thing that will allow us to progress intellectually (and spiritually, if one is inclined to believe in it) and form a better understanding of ourselves and our continually declining minuscule situation in all of existence.

I also have to second Vrecknidj position; just because the universe isn't always predictable, and our knowledge of it is woefully incomplete, doesn't mean that it's random. Also, just because we don't know the cause of it's origins doesn't mean that it was also random.

 

[Anthile]

^ Agreed. Though we should also consider that our minds are not made to comprehend the universe and all its mysteries. Just a few thousand years ago we were just hunters and gatherers and we didn't need such a brain capacity. It seems to occur that our brains grow slowly over the course of many years. When we think about how fragile our current societies really are, this might be a good thing. It doesn't take too much to bring us back to stone age niveau. Just think about that after the fall of Rome, people "forgot" many essential things like building clay huts and it took more than thousand years to reach a simililar cultural level.

 

[hope]

So this one time at band camp... kidding

So this one time I was in my room at boarding school and my roomate comes in. I was reading about biochemistry. My roomate laughs when I tell him what I am doing and he says he wants to be a doctor

 

[Invoke Ninja's True Power]

no one person can know it all. once enough fall..... its like setting up dominoes

 

[Cogwulf]

When you say "the universe appears to be totally based on random events," what is it that you mean?

I think random wasn't quite the right word. I don't quite mean that every event is random, I mean that the universe is built from self-organising systems and processes. A god may have created the big bang and set in place the laws of physics, but from the big bang onwards the universe created itself. If god does exist he doesn't want us to think he exists

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

I am tired of having to do this. I have to dumb myself down intellectually for the common people.

You don't have to do this, you choose to do this as you see it as the easier path. Standing your intellectual and spiritual ground may seem like defending against a tidal wave with a kite shield but I think it is more gratifying to be who you are rather than yield to others. Go along to get along makes you a drone to the will of others.

 

[Draves]

I am tired of having to do this. I have to dumb myself down intellectually for the common people. Spiritually I have to dumb myself down to deal with the intellectual types. The second I mention a "drug" or something that might have some spiritual insight or wisdom I get scoffed or laughed at. Sick of it all. I understand skepticism but science is not able to explain everything. We know next to nothing about the human brain. Brute strength is not superior to intellect. Everything has its uses but to say one thing is superior to another is ignorant.

edit: I am not a subscriber to any one specific religion as I think they all have values and concepts that can be learned from. Besides, one religion is too confining and restrictive.

I wasn't sure where to post this thread, feel free to move it to a different category if it fits better somewhere else.

I take it you are talking about DMT. If not, look into it. It is a very interesting drug*. No, science can't explain everything, but they want you to think it. It is the new religion, don't ya know? I dumb myself down too, which only leads to me being even more quite. I just can't relate. I just can't take gossip when there are bigger issues. I just want to tell them to stfu!

*a great start is erowid.org

 

[Jaleho]

Sometimes I suspect it comes from past experience. I'm 32, I've been an atheist for about 5 years, and was raised as a Southern Baptist before that. There was plenty of overlapping in there - I was probably always a truth-seeker, but college and the internet really sparked the "why am I just believing everything anyone tells me" stage from like, ages 19-27.

I think having grown up as a believer gives me certain insight nowadays. When another atheist says "how can someone actually BELIEVE in something like that" I have the ability to say "I know EXACTLY how they can think that way, because I used to be there."

I think it's very useful for people to put themselves in another person's position to look at things from their POV. If you don't understand what someone thinks, then how can you expect your own views to address them in the right way? If someone is against an issue because of family or financial problems, and you try to address them with scientific or ecological benefits, then the discussion will fail to go anywhere. We have to address the right "nodes" in the other person, and unless we have a small idea what it is they are ACTUALLY thinking (and not just our media-induced stereotype of what we're told they are thinking) then communication breaks down.

 

[Artifice Orisit]

In the middle of the night, lying in an open field, staring up at the stars, and clutching the grass tightly, breathing heavily, having momentarily forgotten that I wasn't going to literally fall off the face of the earth and into the infinite abyss before me, technically above me.

I want to tell somebody, but they can't grasp it, they don't even try.
Wretched people, mere biochemical puppets, but they're all I have.

Should I drink & drug my mind away, and join their merry dance?

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

In the middle of the night, lying in an open field, staring up at the stars, and clutching the grass tightly, breathing heavily, having momentarily forgotten that I wasn't going to literally fall off the face of the earth and into the infinite abyss before me, technically above me.

I want to tell somebody, but they can't grasp it, they don't even try.
Wretched people, mere biochemical puppets, but they're all I have.

Should I drink & drug my mind away, and join their merry dance?

quoted for truth & poetry

I recently made a new acquaintance. She's in her 60s and is a retired sociology professor at one of the University of Californias. But she's only been to a tiny handful of cities in America. She watches CNN and Sunday-morning-news and then thinks that she's educated in all that's going on. She's lived in the same house for 35 years, which is in Berkeley. She's a J, and really thinks that she does know everything and has a solid view of America. But she doesn't even have a clue...

 

[NoID10ts]

Sometimes I suspect it comes from past experience. I'm 32, I've been an atheist for about 5 years, and was raised as a Southern Baptist before that. There was plenty of overlapping in there - I was probably always a truth-seeker, but college and the internet really sparked the "why am I just believing everything anyone tells me" stage from like, ages 19-27.

I think having grown up as a believer gives me certain insight nowadays. When another atheist says "how can someone actually BELIEVE in something like that" I have the ability to say "I know EXACTLY how they can think that way, because I used to be there."

I think it's very useful for people to put themselves in another person's position to look at things from their POV. If you don't understand what someone thinks, then how can you expect your own views to address them in the right way? If someone is against an issue because of family or financial problems, and you try to address them with scientific or ecological benefits, then the discussion will fail to go anywhere. We have to address the right "nodes" in the other person, and unless we have a small idea what it is they are ACTUALLY thinking (and not just our media-induced stereotype of what we're told they are thinking) then communication breaks down.

A fellow ex-Southern Baptist! Welcome to the club. Actually, you should probably welcome me to the club because you've been an atheist longer than I. I know exactly what you are saying here. I was a devoted Christian for almost 20 years and so I do understand a little about spirituality and why people believe in god. To call them stupid or ignorant is to call myself stupid and ignorant.

The problem that I find is that it isn't always a two way street. My experience of faith and the loss thereof, tends to be written off as inauthentic. The reason for this is that they assume that if I saw things from their perspective, if I understood their experience, I never would have walked away in the first place. But if I should consider their experience with an open mind, should they not extend me the same courtesy?

I've been called closed minded before, even here, but why should I water down what I really think in order to make it palatable for others? Just so I can be perceived as well rounded and open to new ideas? Should I sacrifice my true thoughts and feelings on the altar of political correctness? Sometimes the source of our frustrations could be from the frailty of our own arguments and not always the closed minded ignorance of those who disagree with us.

But that being said, there are a lot people who just can't see the big picture and are immersed in ignorance. It is frustrating and I get tired of smiling and nodding while screaming in my mind "Do you have any fucking idea what you're talking about?"

But in the cold, dark recesses of the night, I never forget that it could be I who is immersed in ignorance.

 

[Logician]

hmm... you dabble in religions but don't plunge because you think they are to restricting?

i accept the laws of physics, yet i think gravity is very restricting. That doesn't mean i will only skim the top of physics but not study to hard because its just depressing to know we're bound by these laws.

You either believe or you dont. Either (a, many, or a few) god('s) is real or he(they) is(are) not, but i dont think this is the time or place for that discussion.

 

[snafupants]

The more knowledge one acquires, the more humble the person tends to be. If someone claims to have "figured it out" and they are not a devout yogi or someone endowed with a superlative IQ, call their bluff. There are too many righteous, stupid people running around already. Eugenics anyone?

 

[sroro]

I've always been an agnostic (well until 8 yrs ago or so I became an atheist). I've seen the stupid/arrogance a lot at uni/with some friends. There's just so many ways to look at the world and most are useful in helping us understand it.

I don't take drugs myself but I love to hang out with 'the druggies' because their experiences and trip tales are just so interesting. My other friends think they're just worthless and high but hey there's an artistic quality to it all and maybe a bit more. It can/has helped with neurosci.

 

[Abraxas]

I am tired of having to do this. I have to dumb myself down intellectually for the common people. Spiritually I have to dumb myself down to deal with the intellectual types. The second I mention a "drug" or something that might have some spiritual insight or wisdom I get scoffed or laughed at. Sick of it all. I understand skepticism but science is not able to explain everything. We know next to nothing about the human brain. Brute strength is not superior to intellect. Everything has its uses but to say one thing is superior to another is ignorant.

edit: I am not a subscriber to any one specific religion as I think they all have values and concepts that can be learned from. Besides, one religion is too confining and restrictive.

I wasn't sure where to post this thread, feel free to move it to a different category if it fits better somewhere else.

I understand your point. I also feel like I have to dumb myself down when explaining my insights to "the common people". Perhaps I'm not dumbing down, but instead I've realized that I just need to use a very different kind of logic that I'm used to, when explaining my insights. And when I try very hard, sometimes they get it...I guess.

About drugs...here's an interesting quote:

I believe that with the advent of acid, we discovered a new way to think, and it has to do with piecing together new thoughts in your mind. Why is it that people think it's so evil? What is it about it that scares people so deeply, even the guy that invented it, what is it? Because they're afraid that there's more to reality than they have ever confronted. That there are doors that they're afraid to go in, and they don't want us to go in there either, because if we go in we might learn something that they don't know. And that makes us a little out of their control.
- Ken Kesey

I take it you are talking about DMT. If not, look into it. It is a very interesting drug*. No, science can't explain everything, but they want you to think it. It is the new religion, don't ya know? I dumb myself down too, which only leads to me being even more quite. I just can't relate. I just can't take gossip when there are bigger issues. I just want to tell them to stfu!

*a great start is erowid.org

When you dumb yourself down for years in order to be understood by your friends in school / work / etc. , eventually it will become more difficult to realize who you actually are... After banging my head into a concrete wall for ~20 years, I finally opened my eye.

 

[Moocow]

I don't dumb anything down for anyone and I don't feel like I've really had to do so. What's wrong with treating people like intelligent adults?

also +1 on the drug promoting train.

 

[snafupants]

With respect to spiritually dumbing down, I agree, but can also posit an explanation. Take this example, I deprived my senses for over an hour (meditating in a dark room) and began to hallucinate. I wrote it off to receiving a blast of endogenous DMT. Anyway, I have this rush of energy - with internal perceptions of floating and harnassing power in my hands - and need to tell someone. So I tell my dad, because his room is right there.

My father is a very analytical, intellectual person - former software designer - and he wants to fit everything into the paradigm of logic logic logic. Also, he is an INTJ. We were speaking a different language. I had to revert back to my senses and internal processes - what is felt like, what I was thinking, etc. This certainly cheapened the recollection of the experience, but I couldnt relay the story any other way. I imagine the same thing would exist with psychedelic drugs.

This was a tad prolix, sorry yall.

 

[Dumbing Down of Society]

Your posts are all helpful in my research. I can't speak tagalog but I understand and able to read tagalog texts. Thanks a lot because I am working on the dumbing down of society and your ideas and comments are really helpful in this research. I hope that more people will comment too.

The Purposeful Dumbing Down of Society