Incoherence

[Helvete]

IRL I often find my points/ideas/speech in general are misunderstood. I seem to struggle to word things concisely and poorly construct the background of what I have to say before properly making my point. For fear I guess that it won't make sense without this explanation; in reality, the explanation just seems to further confuse, or frustrate listeners.

To me it often seems like a mistranslation between the ideas I have and what I actually communicate, along with the other problems of explaining what I mean.

INTP seems to be the type that resonates most with me (I think), but I could be a whole bunch of other types that I still hold as possibilities. I seem to have phases of completely re evaluating any conclusion I come to. Even though it seems to make a lot of sense (being INTP) I'm shrouded in the shadow of doubt.

Also, INTP's are meant to be concise with their wording and speech, clearly conveying their points. One of the main reasons I suppose why I'm in so much doubt, as often when I talk I probably sound very illogical. - maybe just an assumption based on people's misunderstanding.

Does anyone else find this speaking IRL? Any thoughts on my situation?

 

[Happy]

This is common for INTPs. Myself included.

 

[TimeAsylums]

if you can't explain it, you don't understand it.

No one is a mind-reader.

Formally develop what it is you are trying to explain. Make sure you have it developed comprehensively. Once at that stage, you should have no trouble conveying exactly what it is you are getting at.

If you are still having trouble explaining it, it is likely you do not fully understand it yet.

 

[Helvete]

This is common for INTPs. Myself included.

What is common? I'm talking about two different things here.

if you can't explain it, you don't understand it.

No one is a mind-reader.

Formally develop what it is you are trying to explain. Make sure you have it developed comprehensively. Once at that stage, you should have no trouble conveying exactly what it is you are getting at.

Yes, I think you're partly correct and this could be the reason for a host of instances. But for example at work if I do something differently to what's considered normal and it's questioned, it can sometimes take me a couple or a few attempts to correctly explain what I'm doing. Even though I know perfectly well why my method is better. It's like I know what to say but when it comes to saying it the most coherent way eludes me.

 

[Red myst]

Struggling with type has been my experience as well. I have been through phases where I over think things, then over feel things, then vary from being more abstract to being more concrete. I no longer care about type. I still toy with the idea sometimes, and overall I know I am introverted, emotionally reserved thinking type who like to keep options open. including the option to make up my mind about something when it becomes necessary. I struggle with the incoherence problem as well. I am fortunate enough to not have to explain myself too often. I tend to rehearse things I have to say, and formulate several analogies as back up descriptions to help make my point. I tend to seem like I am coming out of left field to some people, so I prepare for the conversation.

 

[Pyropyro]

You know the feeling that your brain moves faster than your mouth? We are still speaking but our mind is already formulating a new idea and have totally forgot about the thing what we're talking about in the first place. I think that's the problem that we INTP's have.

I remembered that when I found out that my formal speaking skills was so bad that I have to take a night course for it. It still troubles me from time to time but not as bad as it was before.

 

[StevenM]

As for speaking clearly:

Are you a little stressed, anxious, or pressured when trying to speak your thoughts? I find I have trouble as well in those situations. If I'm calm and collected, things come out right.

Also, I like to have a firm, solid stance on the topic that I'm going to present. Being ambivalent to an idea causes me to stutter mid-speech.

As for INTP,

I found a very accurate profile description of INTP's from personality cafe. Idk, but it really drove home for me.

http://www.intp.org/intprofile.html

 

[Helvete]

Struggling with type has been my experience as well. I have been through phases where I over think things, then over feel things, then vary from being more abstract to being more concrete. I no longer care about type. I still toy with the idea sometimes, and overall I know I am introverted, emotionally reserved thinking type who like to keep options open. including the option to make up my mind about something when it becomes necessary. I struggle with the incoherence problem as well. I am fortunate enough to not have to explain myself too often. I tend to rehearse things I have to say, and formulate several analogies as back up descriptions to help make my point. I tend to seem like I am coming out of left field to some people, so I prepare for the conversation.

With myself regarding type, I feel as if I'm trying to apply myself to something I don't fully understand yet; so I'm still open to the idea that it may or may not work. I'm slowly researching it more and more when I find time.
Also I never rehearse what I have to say unless I have something absolutely specific which is important for something, which isn't often.
I sometimes just try giving an analogy to make a point, to avoid the explanation. But sometimes it's too abstract and I'm asked to explain anyway aha.

You know the feeling that your brain moves faster than your mouth? We are still speaking but our mind is already formulating a new idea and have totally forgot about the thing what we're talking about in the first place. I think that's the problem that we INTP's have.

I remembered that when I found out that my formal speaking skills was so bad that I have to take a night course for it. It still troubles me from time to time but not as bad as it was before.

Yes and no. What you described but instead of completely forgetting what I was saying I'll get confused about how to describe this new idea, that links to the previous one, even though the first isn't fully explained yet. Often the new idea can be spurred from my explanation being questioned, spurring me to be more insightful and suddenly get very caught up in myself. At this point I just want the conversation to stop and be left alone to think.

 

[StevenM]

From the article I posted above:

One-to-one conversation is preferred in almost every situation. In a group situation, INTPs are sensitive to whether they believe they will be listened to or not. If a dominant (strongly extraverted and loud) person is present, the INTP will withdraw and sulk, believing the dominant person to be a brute. If an INTP speaks, he must be listened to, for he believes his spoken opinions to be important. If not, he withdraws (at least in spirit) and assumes that the people who do not listen lack intelligence. Hence, INTPs make very poor leaders, for they depend too much on the attitudes of others.

That part seems to relate to your topic. I get the same way. I'm intimidated by people I perceive as loud , or brute.

 

[peoplesuck]

run through it 5 times in your mind* when you open your moulth" i habas sajksd sk, fuck it"

 

[Ex-User (8886)]

Yes, I have same problem too. What is usuful: write your ideas, thoughts in note or somewhere. It really helps.

 

[Anktark]

Usually I just take my time responding or expressing thought(s). Usually I don't even look directly at the person (or anywhere) and might take anywhere from one to eight seconds before I begin speaking. Sometimes it annoys people, sometimes they don't even wait, but it works for me.

 

[Base groove]

What about arguing with people, and they make what I call "surface arguments" which totally/deliberately overlook the point of view that you're coming from, and they seem like good arguments on the surface but they ignore things like future potential and development, strictly addressing the needs of the moment?

 

[Helvete]

What about arguing with people, and they make what I call "surface arguments" which totally/deliberately overlook the point of view that you're coming from, and they seem like good arguments on the surface but they ignore things like future potential and development, strictly addressing the needs of the moment?

It depends entirely on the argument. I'm not quite sure what you mean by future potential and development. Addressing each point in turn to form something positive from the situation? Or just to have a logical argument take place rather than missing things out etc.

If the argument isn't too important and somewhat unnecessary and I feel the person isn't addressing my main point(s) and arguing just for the sake of winning I'll just shut off completely and leave the situation. Or something just to end it.

If it is important I would try to put them in a position of addressing my points even if that means ignoring their needs of the moment surface argument.

I tend not to get involved in these situations if I can help it and don't have much experience with them but it appears to me often it's just whoever can shout the loudest will win.

 

[Base groove]

It depends entirely on the argument. I'm not quite sure what you mean by future potential and development. Addressing each point in turn to form something positive from the situation? Or just to have a logical argument take place rather than missing things out etc.

If the argument isn't too important and somewhat unnecessary and I feel the person isn't addressing my main point(s) and arguing just for the sake of winning I'll just shut off completely and leave the situation. Or something just to end it.

If it is important I would try to put them in a position of addressing my points even if that means ignoring their needs of the moment surface argument.

I tend not to get involved in these situations if I can help it and don't have much experience with them but it appears to me often it's just whoever can shout the loudest will win.

Regarding shouting: yes it does seem that way. Fortunately for me I have much physical presence.

Regarding depth of arguments: I guess... if I could make another attempt at coherence (), I'd say it pertains to things that people say in a dispute or some kind of crisis/conflict situation that seem to be perfectly logical and address the needs of the moment... but they effectively create new problems or do not directly treat the situation, just the symptoms.

A practical example? I'll do my best... but the only thing that comes to mind at the moment is when I was once told I'd be taking a $2 pay cut and was told that if I "started working 9h a day, [whatever problems I had] wouldn't matter". I guess... it's reasonable, but it's what I'd call a surface argument because it fails to address the actual problem; it just treats the symptoms.

 

[Helvete]

As for speaking clearly:

Are you a little stressed, anxious, or pressured when trying to speak your thoughts? I find I have trouble as well in those situations. If I'm calm and collected, things come out right.

Also, I like to have a firm, solid stance on the topic that I'm going to present. Being ambivalent to an idea causes me to stutter mid-speech.

As for INTP,

I found a very accurate profile description of INTP's from personality cafe. Idk, but it really drove home for me.

http://www.intp.org/intprofile.html

It takes a lot to make me feel stressed or anxious, in fact I very rarely feel anxious. But I do often feel pressured when speaking, especially when asked or giving reasons for something I'm aware doesn't fit in easily with their line of thinking.

From the article I posted above:



That part seems to relate to your topic. I get the same way. I'm intimidated by people I perceive as loud , or brute.

As for the article; a very interesting read but I disagree with some of this part (obviously only speaking for myself here, not representing any other INTP's).

I can feel comfortable talking one on one. Two or three others if I know them well enough I'll still be open, but as the number increases, I'll become more and more reserved; starting from two on one. I find this can also be situational though. Example: I'm with two friends who I'm close to in one on one situations ENTP and ENFP. But I feel as the focus isn't solely directed at me, I can't be fully open to both these individuals. Even though the conversation they were offering was highly intellectual and stimulating. But I was aware throughout they were keen for any input I may have contributed and understood any lack of focus wasn't from any disrespect or brutishness.

What I disagree with here are the presumed assumptions that the dominant people are stupid. I'll treat everybody the same, as everybody is different and stereotyping is silly. Just because one is extroverted doesn't mean they're less intelligent or a brute.

Otherwise I found this article to be fairly accurate.

 

[Klavierr]

Struggling with type has been my experience as well. I have been through phases where I over think things, then over feel things, then vary from being more abstract to being more concrete. I no longer care about type.

Sorry- This is slightly off-topic, but i feel like a lot of people forget is that little personality bits are never, ever, unchanging. I'm not saying people change from type to type (although that might happen) but life is fluid, emotions and thoughts are fluid, and those come and to to make an INTP seem more S, J, F, or (heaven forbid) E (just kidding, being extroverted when you are normally an introvert is a healthy thing to practice.) on certain days, and on others, completely fitting the typology bill.

I've seen some People get this sense that they have to be 100% cookie-cutter INTP in order to be labeled as such, which is neither true nor realistic. You have taken a better alternative in dismissing type altogether, if you feel that is right for you.

My Fe is way more developed than the "average" INTP. i am entirely in-tune with other's emotions, and very empathetic with them. But I am not an INFP by any stretch of the imagination.

back on topic, OP, you will find time to work on the comprehensibility of your speech, just slow down a bit and think things through first.