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I'm starting to doubt that I'm an INTP

intpz

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I'm noticing things like emotional reactions, sometimes even cases when people feel oddly offended, inaction about *current* situation (being okay with being able to live by), often thrive to be controlled (J partners), cooping with menial jobs, basically being okay with everything, often avoiding arguments at all costs, complying to various things, looking for necessary socialization of some sort, probably other things I haven't thought about.

I can't relate to that from "much" to "at all."
 

Etheri

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I'm noticing things like emotional reactions, sometimes even cases when people feel oddly offended, inaction about *current* situation (being okay with being able to live by), often thrive to be controlled (J partners), cooping with menial jobs, basically being okay with everything, often avoiding arguments at all costs, complying to various things, looking for necessary socialization of some sort, probably other things I haven't thought about.

I can't relate to that from "much" to "at all."

a) We're all unique, even intp's.
b) You're secretly an ESFJ. Because fuck logic.
c) a but you're still not an INTP.

Sometimes you cross me as a J type. I don't know why, I've just had that idea. Then again, sometimes I feel like i'm much more extraverted than most of the people on here. It's all matter of perspective, I guess. I think we can both agree you're a rational...

Meh, what am I saying. I suck at typing people, be whatever you wanna be.
 

TriflinThomas

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I'm in the same place. I read a bunch of INFJ profiles, spent some time in INFJ forums, and now I'm trying to figure out if I might be an INFJ :storks:
 
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I noticed this awhile ago but didn't think it'd be right to point it out in that specific thread at the time. ISTP

(Ironic, no?)
 
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FYI, there's a long term trend on this board that procedes in the following manner:


*Joins INTPf*

"ZOMG, I'm an INTP! GENIUS! Bow down to my amahzing Pness!"

*Interacts with INTPs and realizes differences*

*Starts thread with title resembling "Questioning whether I'm an INTP"*

*Actually learns about cognitive functions*

*Realizes they're not an INTP*

*Leaves INTPf, or stays and identifies with new type*

If stays:

*Questions their new type*

*Delves deeper into themselves and cognitive functions*

*Realizes MBTI and/or typology in general isn't an exact science and begins to explore and understand self on a genuine level*
 

pjoa09

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FYI, there's a long term trend on this board that procedes in the following manner:


*Joins INTPf*

"ZOMG, I'm an INTP! GENIUS! Bow down to my amahzing Pness!"

*Interacts with INTPs and realizes differences*

*Starts thread with title resembling "Questioning whether I'm an INTP"*

*Actually learns about cognitive functions*

*Realizes they're not an INTP*

*Leaves INTPf, or stays and identifies with new type*

If stays:

*Questions their new type*

*Delves deeper into themselves and cognitive functions*

*Realizes MBTI and/or typology in general isn't an exact science and begins to explore and understand self on a genuine level*

+16

All my MBTI personality types agree with this.
 

intpz

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FYI, there's a long term trend on this board that procedes in the following manner:


*Joins INTPf*

"ZOMG, I'm an INTP! GENIUS! Bow down to my amahzing Pness!"

*Interacts with INTPs and realizes differences*

*Starts thread with title resembling "Questioning whether I'm an INTP"*

*Actually learns about cognitive functions*

*Realizes they're not an INTP*

*Leaves INTPf, or stays and identifies with new type*

If stays:

*Questions their new type*

*Delves deeper into themselves and cognitive functions*

*Realizes MBTI and/or typology in general isn't an exact science and begins to explore and understand self on a genuine level*

I've joined this forum after test results, so part of your point is void.

I'm also not looking for a definitive "I am in a box!" answer. Don't generalize that much. I'm also not going to leave this place, it's fun around here.

Can we get back to the topic? :confused:
 

Architect

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So are we (just kidding).


Self Type doubt seems to be endemic to the type when we are young, part of our self doubting process. I thought I was an INFJ for a long time - or perhaps I wanted to believe I was an INFJ. See

"This is why INTPs share much in common with INFJs (who also use Fe and Ti)"

INTPs are an odd kettle of fish. Nominally P, but we have a strong Judging component (along with other IN's) in our Ti & Si. So we seem to be both Perceivers and Judgers - and we are. We are perceiving on the outside (Ne & Fe) and Judging (Ti & Si) on the inside.

Then I thought I was INTJ for a long time, because I can be a real driver. I was pushing on goals, but as spelled out above and at that link, we merely share some characteristics with INTJs

While INTJs can excel in careers involving real-world evaluation and problem-solving, INTPs prefer work they feel is relevant to their quest for wisdom and self-knowledge. As explained in my recent post on the ideation of NP types, INTPs enjoy using Ne to make broad connection among ideas, an endeavor they find deeply interesting and meaningful. Again, their goal is not necessarily to solve the world’s problems (although this might occur indirectly), but to clarify concepts and conceptual relationships in a way that is personally meaningful and moves them closer to a sense of truth and coherence of thought.

Sometime in early midlife I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love the Bomb. Along with my genetics and Type post, I saw that there were characteristics of myself that were hard programmed in. It was obvious, now, because I had seen myself do the same thing over and over. Folks on this board who doubt MBTI are either young, or perhaps not INTPs I posit.

At any rate I wouldn't worry too much about it. Who you are will develop and become obvious over your lifetime. Take it that you could be an INTP, INTJ or (unlikely) INFJ or ISTP, and take that into account when making life choices.
 

intpz

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@Architect Well for starters I can't say I'm "worried," I'm rather curious: tests say I'm an INTP, to a far extend I can relate to INTPs. However I can't relate to more and more things posted around here, or the old posts that are revived. I can still relate that what I could relate, I can't relate to what I haven't read/wasn't there before. In fact, I can't relate to what you've mentioned in your reply - the big goal, finding out some big truth. While I like figuring things out, and I would like to know the answer to various questions (space exploration, human mind, etc.), I don't feel the desire as described to find it out myself. It feels as it's impractical, as if it's useless to find it out by myself: the same could be done by others, and I wouldn't "waste" my time on it. Instead, I want to get my ideas "out there," I want to make them work and see them in action.

Take what I've been wanting to do, create a game company: I would like to do it because I believe that I would enjoy doing it and it would profit me. I could get my idea of a game to "get out there," get others to create a game which was my vision, improve it, create a sequel, an expansion or another game, see another idea to life. And while I want to see the idea to life, I can't say that I want to do it myself, I don't feel like learning programming, graphics design, etc., just to create it. I also think that I would enjoy managing the workflow, seeing that it complies to the standards, discussing it with the team of developers and getting ideas for improvement from them as well, which, in the end would be a great final product create from my vision, my idea.

Along with seeing my ideas to life, I would also be rewarded with money, money which I could use to significantly improve the quality of my life: buy a house, a car, a computer, maybe even a network and learn how a server station works, how servers work, etc.. Buy quality food that I actually enjoy eating, buy pleasant clothes (not popular, clothes that feel good on me, quality material), buy technology, and possibly eventually even extra life length.

At any rate I wouldn't worry too much about it. Who you are will develop and become obvious over your lifetime. Take it that you could be an INTP, INTJ or (unlikely) INFJ or ISTP, and take that into account when making life choices.

I am not looking to put myself in a box, in some frames and rules by which I am supposed to live. I will always live how I want to, I will do what I want to, not what an article tells me to do. I value thinking for my(your)self.
 
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Can we get back to the topic? :confused:

You mean this topic? --> " I'm starting to doubt that I'm an INTP" ;)

The goal of calling you an ISTP was to push you toward learning about functions and move you down that typical chain of events. I have no idea what you are.
 

Etheri

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I wasn't high. I was just writing things directly from thought as they popped into my head. The results are usually not very coherent to any outsiders - which would be anyone who isn't inside my brain. And... I think faster than I type, so i do leave out the less relevant stuff.

The first part was just joking at how 'omagod i don't relate to you 100% must be diffrent!'
the second part was answering your question more seriously.
 

intpz

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I wasn't high. I was just writing things directly from thought as they popped into my head. The results are usually not very coherent to any outsiders - which would be anyone who isn't inside my brain. And... I think faster than I type, so i do leave out the less relevant stuff.

The first part was just joking at how 'omagod i don't relate to you 100% must be diffrent!'
the second part was answering your question more seriously.

I know, I was being sarcastic. Although, I couldn't answer seriously because it was hard to understand.
 

Proletar

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Doubt is a mark of the INTP.


It's like a matryoshka doll. :storks:
 

redbaron

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FYI, there's a long term trend on this board that procedes in the following manner:

*Joins INTPf*

"ZOMG, I'm an INTP! GENIUS! Bow down to my amahzing Pness!"

*Interacts with INTPs and realizes differences*

*Starts thread with title resembling "Questioning whether I'm an INTP"*

*Actually learns about cognitive functions*

*Realizes they're not an INTP*

*Leaves INTPf, or stays and identifies with new type*

If stays:

*Questions their new type*

*Delves deeper into themselves and cognitive functions*

*Realizes MBTI and/or typology in general isn't an exact science and begins to explore and understand self on a genuine level*

HEREBY REQUESTING THAT THE ABOVE POST BE STICKIED...

EVERYWHERE
 

Jennywocky

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I'm noticing things like emotional reactions, sometimes even cases when people feel oddly offended, inaction about *current* situation (being okay with being able to live by), often thrive to be controlled (J partners), cooping with menial jobs, basically being okay with everything, often avoiding arguments at all costs, complying to various things, looking for necessary socialization of some sort, probably other things I haven't thought about.

Are you kidding?

We're not this.

gingerbread_men_cookiesashx.jpeg




Everyone has the seeds of various attributes within them. Some attributes grow and flower and dominate more than others. But the other attributes still exist and you can exhibit them. In addition, some attributes dominate in different spheres of a person's life.

The things you describe (at least within your OP) fit perfectly fine within the range of real life INTP individuals. Check out enneagram Fives (for example) which often matches up with MBTI INTP and can show a lot of traits that you mentioned here... or the enneagram Nines especially for the more placid/passive/peaceful type of INTP out there.
 

intpz

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Everyone has the seeds of various attributes within them. Some attributes grow and flower and dominate more than others. But the other attributes still exist and you can exhibit them. In addition, some attributes dominate in different spheres of a person's life.

The things you describe (at least within your OP) fit perfectly fine within the range of real life INTP individuals. Check out enneagram Fives (for example) which often matches up with MBTI INTP and can show a lot of traits that you mentioned here... or the enneagram Nines especially for the more placid/passive/peaceful type of INTP out there.

I do understand, and that's what I've been thinking, although I'm noticing more things mentioned in the threads that I read (old threads) or newly created threads, more things that mismatch with the opinions of most INTPs. Therefore, I have to entertain the possibility that I am not an INTP, even though the personality tests say so. It would simply be another case of personality tests being full of shit. Descriptions don't talk about what you can notice when you actually interact with a generalized group like this.
 

Ostriker

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Typology is not a real science. Many of us forget that, myself included. Stop cramming your whole personality into a little box and just live your life. MBTI can be useful at first but if you wrestle with it for too long you start tying to categorize your every little behavior and you forget who it is you even are.
 

intpz

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Typology is not a real science. Many of us forget that, myself included. Stop cramming your whole personality into a little box and just live your life. MBTI can be useful at first but if you wrestle with it for too long you start tying to categorize your every little behavior and you forget who it is you even are.

You should start reading all posts (at least the OP's posts) before replying with such implicit comments.
 

Jennywocky

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I do understand, and that's what I've been thinking, although I'm noticing more things mentioned in the threads that I read (old threads) or newly created threads, more things that mismatch with the opinions of most INTPs. Therefore, I have to entertain the possibility that I am not an INTP, even though the personality tests say so. It would simply be another case of personality tests being full of shit. Descriptions don't talk about what you can notice when you actually interact with a generalized group like this.

Maybe it's just because I've been in various groups and interacting with lots of types of people (INTPs included) for years now... so I see a lot of variance, and all the patterns for various types have very fuzzy edges and can even spill into each other. You seem pretty much typical/solid INTP to me, within the patterns. (I think you come across as more typical INTP than I do, I have weird quirks where I can really stray across some lines.)

But we can tackle this from the completely opposite direction: If you're not INTP, what on earth would you be? You're far less everything else than INTP, tbh. ;)
 

intpz

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Maybe it's just because I've been in various groups and interacting with lots of types of people (INTPs included) for years now... so I see a lot of variance, and all the patterns for various types have very fuzzy edges and can even spill into each other. You seem pretty much typical/solid INTP to me, within the patterns. (I think you come across as more typical INTP than I do, I have weird quirks where I can really stray across some lines.)

But we can tackle this from the completely opposite direction: If you're not INTP, what on earth would you be? You're far less everything else than INTP, tbh. ;)

INTJ is a possibility perhaps. ENTJ and ENTP would go the the clubs and parties, so I can't be one of those beasts. :D

I've no idea. I know that I look at life brutally logically, without any filters, emotional, traditional or else. So that's a T and an N. Also the ideas go for the N. I know that I don't like parties, and as far as my knowledge goes, E like parties, so not an E. If I'm correct about these, perhaps we could assume 50% on the scale of a P and a J, as I dislike that "I'm okay with anything" logic, however I am open-minded. I'm also confrontational and competitive.

Just some thoughts, I'm open for a discussion, more insight, questions, etc.. :elephant:
 

intpz

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Looking at cognitive functions, I can't relate to Fe, as mentioned in numerous posts, mostly Architect's. I also can't relate to Si too much, as I don't tie stuff with past experiences, and don't cling on things, I like change, and I like it a lot. I want things to change, I want to improve them and upgrade them, or start new things. For example, I want to move to another country and I don't cling on "but I was born here, I lived here, I don't want change." logic. I don't mind throwing out stuff that I don't need, which is change too. I would buy new clothes before the old ones have holes in them (oh yea, and socks too! :D), and I could pay a shitload of money for something if it's made from high quality material.
 

Architect

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I'm not trying to convince you one way or the other ...

Looking at cognitive functions, I can't relate to Fe, as mentioned in numerous posts, mostly Architect's.

INTPs seem to have a more tenuous relationship with their inferior than many types, maybe because it is so remote from their dominant. Especially when young the inferior can be remote indeed.

I also can't relate to Si too much, as I don't tie stuff with past experiences, and don't cling on things, I like change, and I like it a lot. I want things to change, I want to improve them and upgrade them, or start new things. For example, I want to move to another country and I don't cling on "but I was born here, I lived here, I don't want change." logic. I don't mind throwing out stuff that I don't need, which is change too. I would buy new clothes before the old ones have holes in them (oh yea, and socks too! :D), and I could pay a shitload of money for something if it's made from high quality material.

Si is tertiary, and if you are young then one, you don't have alot of history, and two, you probably haven't developed your tertiary or inferior much. Besides which wanting change doesn't invalidate Si. I want change, I'm doing everything I can to bring it on. Desire for change is common among IN's (INFJ's also have this).

So you haven't said anything here that indicates a non INTP, but like I said I'm not invested either way. Look, the main thing is do you spend most of your time in private analysis (Ti)? Is your idea of an ideal life living in a lighthouse with an internet connection? If so then you are probably an INTP.
 

intpz

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It's okay with me, whether you are or aren't trying to convince me, either way, I'm interested in any feedback, questions and theories.

So you haven't said anything here that indicates a non INTP, but like I said I'm not invested either way. Look, the main thing is do you spend most of your time in private analysis (Ti)? Is your idea of an ideal life living in a lighthouse with an internet connection? If so then you are probably an INTP.

To answer your question, no. I want a house, a car, a lot of stuff to play with (mostly PCs though, and any parts that I may need to improve or create things, like say liquid cooling, or a more efficient airflow system). Another thing is the indie game company idea I've mentioned somewhere, I think more than once. I would like to spend time in the conference room with the workers, presenting my ideas, getting feedback and checking how the work is going, while I'm improving the big picture (end product) of a game idea I have before starting a new game project. After seeing my idea alive, move to another idea, a project that I got ready while improving the idea that was in progress of getting created, while managing the process of it getting created to make sure that it is of high quality and realistically meets my standards.

Switching between home and office, working on new game ideas while also working on other, minor ideas, and possibly interesting issues, maybe writing a book or two to express my dissatisfaction with irrational idiocy that a big part of the humanity seems to be so fond of. And of course, where would I be without an occasional argument, rationalizing and using opponent's worthlessly emotional ideas against him.

Definitely not in a lighthouse jacking off, creating threads like this and annoying the shit out of people like redbaron and D-something, the guy with big circle things in his ears. :D
 

Architect

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To answer your question, no. I want a house, a car, a lot of stuff to play with (mostly PCs though, and any parts that I may need to improve or create things, like say liquid cooling, or a more efficient airflow system). Another thing is the indie game company idea I've mentioned somewhere, I think more than once. I would like to spend time in the conference room with the workers, presenting my ideas, getting feedback and checking how the work is going, while I'm improving the big picture (end product) of a game idea I have before starting a new game project. After seeing my idea alive, move to another idea, a project that I got ready while improving the idea that was in progress of getting created, while managing the process of it getting created to make sure that it is of high quality and realistically meets my standards.

Switching between home and office, working on new game ideas while also working on other, minor ideas, and possibly interesting issues, maybe writing a book or two to express my dissatisfaction with irrational idiocy that a big part of the humanity seems to be so fond of. And of course, where would I be without an occasional argument, rationalizing and using opponent's worthlessly emotional ideas against him.

Well you are describing my life to a T. Well almost, I don't have an indie game company, but am getting a private software dev company off the ground (with an employee of one - me presently). As for having employees, I would ideally have enough capital to hire them and their managers, and without the accountability that usually comes with such capital. Yeah, that would be my ideal! But as I say I'm not too far from that presently.

I do know a guy who has an indie game company he's getting off the ground. Has a couple of artists, he's doing the gameplay and engine, etc. He has to do a lot of human resources. He just instituted a task management system to help keep the artists motivated. He's an ISFP by the way.

So whatever, you sound INTP to me, your call ...
 

intpz

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Well you are describing my life to a T. Well almost, I don't have an indie game company, but am getting a private software dev company off the ground (with an employee of one - me presently). As for having employees, I would ideally have enough capital to hire them and their managers, and without the accountability that usually comes with such capital. Yeah, that would be my ideal! But as I say I'm not too far from that presently.

I can't say I would want to do that for another company. As far as management goes, why not, but ideas - hell no, get your own! Unless I have complete control over the game, I am not sharing my ideas.

I don't think I would hire a bunch of managers either, at least as far as I know what they must do. I would also likely limit my managing style, I wouldn't oversee them so much that it would be a high quality product, I'd merely see that they do their job and that's that. I would like to personally oversee the quality of the ongoing development of the product, have meetings about the progress, adjustments, to bounce off some ideas and to get feedback. All that stuff that goes on during the meetings in companies like Microsoft, Blizzard or whatever.

I do know a guy who has an indie game company he's getting off the ground. Has a couple of artists, he's doing the gameplay and engine, etc. He has to do a lot of human resources. He just instituted a task management system to help keep the artists motivated. He's an ISFP by the way.
I have noticed the trend for F types to start indie companies. "The Indie Movie" has strengthened my observation... The indies in that movie... Damn, I couldn't stand them, working with them on the same project! Managing their work, sure, but I can bet you anything, they hate corporations any kind of opposition to their idea of the game. That's why they went indie in the first place!

So whatever, you sound INTP to me, your call ...
I don't mean to say "I'm not!", but I do mean to discuss. More discussion means more questions answered and more possibilities looked at. At the least I get an insight into the ideas.
 

Architect

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I can't say I would want to do that for another company.

I'm not, but I didn't explain my situation clearly. No matter.

As far as management goes, why not, but ideas - hell no, get your own! Unless I have complete control over the game, I am not sharing my ideas.

Problem is your engineers are people who value their work as much as you do. Hard to find good ones that will just do what you tell them. Having been on both sides of it, you pretty much have to give your team a free reign on what to do, with you setting the vision.

I don't think I would hire a bunch of managers either, at least as far as I know what they must do. I would also likely limit my managing style, I wouldn't oversee them so much that it would be a high quality product, I'd merely see that they do their job and that's that. I would like to personally oversee the quality of the ongoing development of the product, have meetings about the progress, adjustments, to bounce off some ideas and to get feedback. All that stuff that goes on during the meetings in companies like Microsoft, Blizzard or whatever.

Well, I have managed software teams. You spend 90% of your time managing 10% of your people, and you lose your technical abilities. You can't say "I'll be different", because very few people can manage to keep both.

I have noticed the trend for F types to start indie companies. "The Indie Movie" has strengthened my observation... The indies in that movie... Damn, I couldn't stand them, working with them on the same project! Managing their work, sure, but I can bet you anything, they hate corporations any kind of opposition to their idea of the game. That's why they went indie in the first place!

Yeah, but those places have their trouble too. I've worked in indie, to run of the mill corporate to defense contract (=intense corporate). They all have their advantages and disadvantages.

So what I'm saying is, certainly if you have the option of bossing a team go for it. Good experience. I've done it a number of times in a number of ways, which is why I'm keeping it small and working a day job (on somebody else's software team ;) )
 

intpz

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Problem is your engineers are people who value their work as much as you do. Hard to find good ones that will just do what you tell them. Having been on both sides of it, you pretty much have to give your team a free reign on what to do, with you setting the vision.



Well, I have managed software teams. You spend 90% of your time managing 10% of your people, and you lose your technical abilities. You can't say "I'll be different", because very few people can manage to keep both.



Yeah, but those places have their trouble too. I've worked in indie, to run of the mill corporate to defense contract (=intense corporate). They all have their advantages and disadvantages.

So what I'm saying is, certainly if you have the option of bossing a team go for it. Good experience. I've done it a number of times in a number of ways, which is why I'm keeping it small and working a day job (on somebody else's software team ;) )

I may be wrong here, but I think that you simply have to have the right approach.

They do have a lot of trouble, indies usually don't get paid before they create their first game. And they have to trust each other, a lot is at stake, especially before they actually create something.
 

Jennywocky

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INTJ is a possibility perhaps. ENTJ and ENTP would go the the clubs and parties, so I can't be one of those beasts. :D

Well, that's not necessarily true.

And typically you explain your thinking far too much to fit as easily into INTJ. That's more a behavioral thing, but that Ni primary for INTJs usually leads them to not explain the logic reasoning -- typically they get the Ni insight first and sometimes need some time to construct the thought process to support. Ti meanwhile as a primary naturally can explicate the entire thinking process and does so a great deal in the right settings, without effort.

I've no idea. I know that I look at life brutally logically, without any filters, emotional, traditional or else. So that's a T and an N. Also the ideas go for the N. I know that I don't like parties, and as far as my knowledge goes, E like parties, so not an E.

yeah -- don't make assumptions like that. That's the kind of "cliche thinking" that confuses people about their type. Extroverts don't necessarily like "parties."
 

intpz

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Well, that's not necessarily true.

And typically you explain your thinking far too much to fit as easily into INTJ. That's more a behavioral thing, but that Ni primary for INTJs usually leads them to not explain the logic reasoning -- typically they get the Ni insight first and sometimes need some time to construct the thought process to support. Ti meanwhile as a primary naturally can explicate the entire thinking process and does so a great deal in the right settings, without effort.



yeah -- don't make assumptions like that. That's the kind of "cliche thinking" that confuses people about their type. Extroverts don't necessarily like "parties."

Extroverts that don't party and hate smalltalk? Interesting :beatyou: Maybe I'm an extrovert then. :D

By the way, about the thinking process. It may be unrelated to what you said, but I could explain how I get the answers I get in maths class very rarely. All teachers hated that, some wrote me negative marks in tests because I wrote just a bunch of answers rather than 2-page calculations like the rest.
 

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intpz

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However I think the general concept that extroverts love groups holds true.

I believe I'd love a group if it was a group that doesn't shout over each other, like in the talk show I've posted a video to somewhere. And of course if the people in there are intelligent and are willing to listen to my bullshit (theories, ideas and all that), as well as contribute with replies themselves. So far, I've been in groups at school to do some project for 40 minutes, I hated every single one of them - people were too stupid to say anything interesting, and those who could possibly do that, were either silent like me or were doing the task while the rest was fucking around with poor jokes and smalltalk.
 

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Just saw this article elsewhere this morning:

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57803&p=1937000&viewfull=1#post1937000

General distinction holds true here: INTJs prefer certainty , INTPs prefer clarity.

Extroverts that don't party and hate smalltalk? Interesting

I'm not sure why this isn't clear. "smalltalk" and "party" are not synonymous. The dynamic of a large group of people making lots of noise and making it difficult to hold one-on-one convos is not prefered by some extravert types; others, of course, it is. But if we are just discussing "extroverts" in general, we need to only state the common denominators and parties is not one of them even if interaction with and knowing many people typically is.


By the way, about the thinking process. It may be unrelated to what you said, but I could explain how I get the answers I get in maths class very rarely. All teachers hated that, some wrote me negative marks in tests because I wrote just a bunch of answers rather than 2-page calculations like the rest.

With stuff I saw as transparent, I hated having to explain it. There's a love-hate that typically exists for INTPs with explanation -- one thinks in terms of logic easily, yet at the same time the desire to not be redundant leads to NOT wanting to explain what seems obvious or "by rote" (there's a pragmatism I think that also exists for TPs in general, "Hey, I got it to work, DUH -- isn't that what counts?")... and also when things get complicated and there's no easy way to translate a multi-dimensional thinking process into a linear flow on paper, INTPs might just not want to bother because they can't get the precision right or find the words.

However I think the general concept that extroverts love groups holds true.

Extroverts like stimulation, which is usually received from external sources. Yes, this stimulation is easier to find in groups, or in endless serial one-on-one conversations, for those who like to communicate.

But since "groups" is far broader than "parties," parties don't appeal as much to some kinds of extroverts even if they have their pet groups.
 

intpz

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Just saw this article elsewhere this morning:

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57803&p=1937000&viewfull=1#post1937000

General distinction holds true here: INTJs prefer certainty , INTPs prefer clarity.

I could relate to both quite well to be honest. While I often find long articles tedious and don't read them to full extend (skimming through, trying to find where is the point, etc.), I sometimes write long articles myself. Something completely contradictory that I've noticed when reading that post, it was one of the more interesting "discoveries."

With stuff I saw as transparent, I hated having to explain it. There's a love-hate that typically exists for INTPs with explanation -- one thinks in terms of logic easily, yet at the same time the desire to not be redundant leads to NOT wanting to explain what seems obvious or "by rote" (there's a pragmatism I think that also exists for TPs in general, "Hey, I got it to work, DUH -- isn't that what counts?")... and also when things get complicated and there's no easy way to translate a multi-dimensional thinking process into a linear flow on paper, INTPs might just not want to bother because they can't get the precision right or find the words.

Well that wasn't the point in most cases, especially in higher grades. In lower grades, where you get ((25*52)/14)^2, sure, but where you get some text-based problem that requires to logically arrange the variables and potentially use some imagination; I wasn't able to explain the more complex stuff. But generally, whether as an excuse or not depending on the situation, I used "I got it working, the fuck do you care? Here's the answer!" argument to explain this.
 

mu is mu

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I'm noticing things like emotional reactions, sometimes even cases when people feel oddly offended,

INTPs can notice emotional reactions, even when people are oddly offended. I, for one, have never understood the supposed INTP characteristic of being almost completely confused by others' emotions. There are reasons that people behave emotionally, and I find that these reasons are usually simple to understand regardless of whether I personally consider them to be logical or not. Little nonverbal cues like facial expressions, tone of voice, body language, etc., can be dead giveaways to these emotional responses.

inaction about *current* situation (being okay with being able to live by),

Excuse me, but I don't understand your meaning here. If you're referring to passivity, then that can apply to INTPs, as they can be passive/flexible about many things. Since we tend to spend most of our time inside of our minds (if circumstances allow), this can be one of the factors that generates an indifference/passivity to external reality at times.

often thrive to be controlled (J partners),

Do you wish to be controlled because you tend to be indecisive?

cooping with menial jobs,

I'm an INTP, I have a job that many people would consider menial, and I'm definitely content with it--not because of the nature of the work, but because of such things as location, job security, flexibility, the benevolence of my superiors, etc. Additionally,

Individuals with Conventional interests enjoy administrative work (Yes, some people do enjoy administrative tasks:)). They do well with manipulating data and are organized and detail-oriented. Examples of Conventional careers include accounting, bookkeeping, secretarial and administrative work, business, banking, proofreading, payroll, and technical writing. Those in this domain often prefer Sensing, Thinking, and/or Judging. As stated earlier, INTPs, while not typically enjoying Conventional work, can nonetheless perform it competently when necessary. http://personalityjunkie.com/intp-careers-jobs-majors/2/

basically being okay with everything,

That's a very general statement, so how does it specifically differentiate you from other INTPs? In some regards, INTPs can desire some type of change in reality, but in other regards they can be perfectly content with a status quo, even when Sensors themselves desire change. How an INTP behaves and thinks in this regard depends on what we're specifically talking about.

often avoiding arguments at all costs,

This is an INTP characteristic. For example,

INTPs do not like to deal with messy complications, such as interpersonal conflict, and so they may fall into the habit of ignoring conflict when it occurs. If they feel they must face the conflict, they're likely to approach it from an analytical perspective. This may aggravate the conflict situation, if their partner simply wants to feel that they are supported and loved. Most people (and especially those with the Feeling preference) simply want to be encouraged, affirmed and supported when they are upset. The INTP should practice meeting these needs in conflict situations. http://www.davenevins.com/personalities/types/intp.htm

complying to various things,

What are these various things that you comply with? INTPs who live in a society choose to comply with at least some norms, values, and institutions of that society.

looking for necessary socialization of some sort,

On this forum you can read where some INTPs posted threads about loneliness/alienation, so your remark here fits in to the variation within INTPs. Some can be almost total recluses while others opt for a more normal (an arbitrary standard) amount of social reaction.

I think one of the main factors that causes so much confusion and ambivalence for INTPs regarding what specifically constitutes an INTP is that no single web page, article, or book elucidates every single aspect of the INTP personality. If your source material for your personal concept of an INTP consists of only a few sources, then you are inevitably going to miss a huge number of dimensions to the INTP, which is possibly one of the most complex personality types. The people who write about INTPs each have a limited amount of directly observed or reported data with which to form conclusions and generalizations about INTPs and so shouldn't legitimately be expected to cover everything about the INTP in their writings. In other words, the more sources you read about INTPs, the more you'll come to understand what they really are, as well as what they aren't.
 

intpz

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INTPs can notice emotional reactions, even when people are oddly offended. I, for one, have never understood the supposed INTP characteristic of being almost completely confused by others' emotions. There are reasons that people behave emotionally, and I find that these reasons are usually simple to understand regardless of whether I personally consider them to be logical or not. Little nonverbal cues like facial expressions, tone of voice, body language, etc., can be dead giveaways to these emotional responses.

Apparently you didn't get what I meant here, not in the quote below...

Excuse me, but I don't understand your meaning here. If you're referring to passivity, then that can apply to INTPs, as they can be passive/flexible about many things. Since we tend to spend most of our time inside of our minds (if circumstances allow), this can be one of the factors that generates an indifference/passivity to external reality at times.

Apparently you do understand the meaning. :confused: LIAR! Anyway, I can't relate to that, I'm not okay with shitty situations...

Do you wish to be controlled because you tend to be indecisive?

Hell no. I want to make my own decisions. Dependent on the importance and the knowledge I have about the decision, I can either make it quickly or slowly, but in either case, I want to make it myself, do it MY way.

I'm an INTP, I have a job that many people would consider menial, and I'm definitely content with it--not because of the nature of the work, but because of such things as location, job security, flexibility, the benevolence of my superiors, etc. Additionally, INTPs, while not typically enjoying Conventional work, can nonetheless perform it competently when necessary.

Not wanting to do a job just because it is considered menial is irrational in the first place... Because it's boring, on the other hand, that's compliance to your wishes.

Being able to perform well and performing well are two different things; it depends on intelligence rather than a personality type. While I believe that I could do better than most cashiers, I'm not gonna work as a cashier, to illustrate the point.

That's a very general statement, so how does it specifically differentiate you from other INTPs? In some regards, INTPs can desire some type of change in reality, but in other regards they can be perfectly content with a status quo, even when Sensors themselves desire change. How an INTP behaves and thinks in this regard depends on what we're specifically talking about.

I meant that instead of changing the situation, being passive and doing nothing about it for whatever reason, ranging from "too lazy" to "I can deal with it anyway."

This is an INTP characteristic.

Avoidance can very be annoying to me. I remember that being the case with certain people (not INTPs) that I had to talk with.

What are these various things that you comply with? INTPs who live in a society choose to comply with at least some norms, values, and institutions of that society.

For example, a fucked up job or an idiotic situation with their roommate that affects them as well.
 

mu is mu

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Ok, in your first post when you provided this list

I'm noticing things like emotional reactions, sometimes even cases when people feel oddly offended, inaction about *current* situation (being okay with being able to live by), often thrive to be controlled (J partners), cooping with menial jobs, basically being okay with everything, often avoiding arguments at all costs, complying to various things, looking for necessary socialization of some sort, probably other things I haven't thought about.

whom are you referring to? Are you referring to yourself or to generalizations about other INTPs? Even after reading your most recent response I can't discern if what you really mean is, "These are generalizations about other INTPs that I do not identify with," or, "These are generalizations about myself that do not generally apply to some other INTPs." Both meanings result in problems, which is why I'm so confused. Please provide more information/specificity.

Also, in the original post, did you intend to type the word "coping" instead of "cooping" or did you deliberately choose the word "cooping?"
 

intpz

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Ok, in your first post when you provided this list whom are you referring to? Are you referring to yourself or to generalizations about other INTPs? Even after reading your most recent response I can't discern if what you really mean is, "These are generalizations about other INTPs that I do not identify with," or, "These are generalizations about myself that do not generally apply to some other INTPs." Both meanings result in problems, which is why I'm so confused. Please provide more information/specificity.

Also, in the original post, did you intend to type the word "coping" instead of "cooping" or did you deliberately choose the word "cooping?"

Obviously to the members of this forum, nobody in particular, just things that I couldn't relate to. And that isn't (as far as I know) about other types from around here. I can't understand what's there to not understand. Doesn't the phrase "I can't relate to that from "much" to "at all." " give you the answer?

It was meant to be "coping."
 

mu is mu

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Obviously to the members of this forum, nobody in particular, just things that I couldn't relate to. And that isn't (as far as I know) about other types from around here. I can't understand what's there to not understand. Doesn't the phrase "I can't relate to that from "much" to "at all." " give you the answer?

No, that phrase confused me even further. Let's take a look at how you started the first paragraph so I can show you why and so we can see that miscommunication is sometimes much more complicated than your simple evaluation suggests. I find miscommunication and communication in general very interesting, by the way (CMST is my minor), so please excuse my nerdiness.

I'm noticing things like emotional reactions, sometimes even cases when people feel oddly offended,

...

First, where did you notice all of these things? You didn't specify. If you would have begun that first sentence with something like, "I've been noticing that some members on this forum exhibit emotional reactions and these other behaviors..." that would have changed the meaning I received. This leads to my next point.

Second, which emotional people are you referring to? People you personally encounter in "real life?" You didn't specify that either. So I was led to believe that the first item in your list was referring to people in general and not INTPs in particular since your language was general and you didn't specify that this INTP forum was your context, which leads to my next point.

Third, the aforementioned ambiguity inherent to the first item in the list (about emotional people whose identities are unspecified) can be interpreted as your claiming that you have an acute emotional awareness of people in "real life" that some INTPs don't have. This, in turn, sets up your opening paragraph as a list of self-descriptions that distinguish you from other INTPs, an interpretation that is further supported by my next point.

Fourth, some of the items in your list do not apply to some of the members on this forum and to some other INTPs elsewhere, so your intended meaning (i.e., that the list provides descriptions of INTPs) doesn't completely apply to your opening paragraph. This is the main reason why a part of me perceived that your list was referring to yourself and not to other INTPs, as though you were noting distinctions between your behaviors and common INTP behaviors.

And fifth, this line,

I can't relate to that from "much" to "at all."

as I already noted, only compounded the confusion, since you never specified what "that" was that you couldn't relate to. I didn't expect to see someone attribute some of those characteristics in your list to INTPs, which is, again, the main reason that I perceived that the behaviors you were noticing were probably self-descriptions. But if this was true, then you couldn't relate to your own self-descriptions that don't apply to many INTPs, which led you to doubt the notion that you're an INTP? ;) I find this extremely confusing and suspected that some type of miscommunication was happening, which is why I asked for clarification.

In summary, you

A.) didn't specify your context but assumed that I would discern it on my own,
B.) attributed behaviors to INTPs that I have not read INTPs are generally known for,

and I

C.) got confused and inferred contradictory meanings from your words,

so

D.) for all these reasons, and even more that I'll leave undisclosed for the sake of space, I missed your intended meaning. Whenever we as human beings communicate, what we mean is usually obvious to us, but we need to be careful to make sure the language is understandable to others as well, otherwise this type of miscommunication can occur. And if someone happens to miss your intended meaning (as I did), all you have to do is clarify--not say things such as "obviously" or "I can't understand what's there to not understand." Again, what's obvious to you may not be obvious to everyone else through no fault of their own, so it may not be a wise idea to attribute the blame for this misunderstanding to the other person. Some people might consider that to be an attack on their intelligence or such, whether you intend that or not.

Alright class, Communication Studies 211 is dismissed for the day. :)

But now that I do understand your meaning, I consider the items in your list to reflect the variation within INTPs, as others have noted, as well as variations within the life stages of the INTP. But I also get the impression that not everyone on this forum is an INTP, and I've noticed that some people even explicate that they aren't INTPs, so these two things should also account for some of those differences that you noted.
 
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