If phobias are irrational...

[gruesomebrat]

then why do people continue in their fear once they realize they have a phobia?

The defiinition of a phobia is:

an exaggerated usually inexplicable and illogical fear of a particular object, class of objects, or situation

What I don't undersstand is why people are unable to get past their phobias once they realize it is illogical. Are phobics simply unable to use logic when it comes to their fear?

Having never personally had a phobia, it's difficult to be sure, but I like to think that if I had a phobia and someone confronted me with the fact that, by definition, that phobia was illogical, I'd be able to reason my way out of the fear. Even if I didn't completely dispel the fear, I'm sure that applying a little logic to the situation would allow me to dispel enough of the fear that it wouldn't be debilitating.

Anyone have any clue as to why phobics continue in fear after realizing the irrationality of that fear?

 

[EyeSeeCold]

What I don't undersstand is why people are unable to get past their phobias once they realize it is illogical. Are phobics simply unable to use logic when it comes to their fear?

First, the question to be asked is: can illogical phobias be solved by logic? This general principle will answer your particular.

A case that might be important here is the dispute between Theism and Science.

 

[Minuend]

Let's use spiders as an example.

Fear of spiders is probably a genetic fear, meaning it evolved as a defence when we lived among dangerous spiders (a lot still do). Those who ran, survived.

From a young age, it's probably that this fear is triggered, if by nothing else the reactions from older humans. Whenever this small individual sees a spider, fear is triggered.

Now, since this is happening a fair amount, neurological patterns are being created where spider = fear. And the more they get triggered, the stronger the network becomes. So even when applying logic in adult age, the network is still too strong to be broken by reasoning.

 

[ApostateAbe]

All of my reptilian-brain instincts are a function of my logic. When I am looking at beautiful young women, for example, the logical decision-making function of my brain decides to get an erection, to derive rational pleasure from the experience, the same as I decide to move my hands to open door knobs. When I am publicly speaking in front of a large audience, I logically decide to put on my most charming persona, and I have no problem at all. When I see a large hairy spider, I recoil in a quick rational judgment of what may happen if the spider were to bite me. If I identify it as a species harmless to humans, I pick the spider up, kiss it, and send it on its merry way. I can't understand why other people are not more disciplined with their actions as I am. Aren't people supposed to be fundamentally logical, rational, reasonable actors?

 

[Trebuchet]

The defiinition of a phobia is:What I don't undersstand is why people are unable to get past their phobias once they realize it is illogical. Are phobics simply unable to use logic when it comes to their fear?

I have phobias, and I can tell you that logic doesn't make them go away. Anyone with a phobia knows it is illogical. Phobias don't make you stupid.

I like to think that if I had a phobia and someone confronted me with the fact that, by definition, that phobia was illogical, I'd be able to reason my way out of the fear. Even if I didn't completely dispel the fear, I'm sure that applying a little logic to the situation would allow me to dispel enough of the fear that it wouldn't be debilitating.

Hee hee, that's funny. If you could do that, it wouldn't be a phobia.

Anyone have any clue as to why phobics continue in fear after realizing the irrationality of that fear?

Here's an example, not of an irrational phobia, but what it is like. Walking 10 meters across a 1-meter-wide plank is easy when the plank is suspended only as high as your knees. If it is 50 stories up, however, fear would prevent many people from crossing, even though the chance of falling off such a wide bridge aren't particularly high. Logic says that if there isn't any wind, and the materials are strong, it is no more difficult than at ground level.

Mental problems can't be reasoned away any more than physical ones can. Once you have stitches in a wound, is it logical for the pain to continue?

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Mental problems can't be reasoned away any more than physical ones can. Once you have stitches in a wound, is it logical for the pain to continue?

Yes, to remind yourself not to do anymore crazy stunts while it heals.

 

[Minuend]

I can't understand why other people are not more disciplined with their actions as I am. Aren't people supposed to be fundamentally logical, rational, reasonable actors?

I already explained it.

Not all have an inherent fear of spiders.

Supposed to be rational? What does that mean? Why should we be?

Everything is the result of our adaptive nature. Our genes, environment differ because our surrounding varies. In an environment filled with poisonous spiders, fear is not irrational.

There is no final answer, no single true path. Such thing can not exist. A perfectly logical mind can not exist.

 

[gruesomebrat]

Let's use spiders as an example.

Fear of spiders is probably a genetic fear, meaning it evolved as a defence when we lived among dangerous spiders (a lot still do). Those who ran, survived.

From a young age, it's probably that this fear is triggered, if by nothing else the reactions from older humans. Whenever this small individual sees a spider, fear is triggered.

Now, since this is happening a fair amount, neurological patterns are being created where spider = fear. And the more they get triggered, the stronger the network becomes. So even when applying logic in adult age, the network is still too strong to be broken by reasoning.

This actually makes some sense. It would explain some phobias rather easily, but what about the most debilitating phobias? Claustrophobia, agoraphobia, and noctophobia (fear of the dark)? How does one become conditioned to fear small enclosed spaces, or wide open spaces, or crowds, or the dark? Or, are you suggesting that these may go further back, into our genetic memory?

 

[Dimensional Transition]

I have quite a few phobias. I know they're illogical, but I still know there's a risk of my phobias being real. Such as with flying. Sure, there's only a tiny chance the plane will crash, but it CAN happen, it's not completely illogical. I want to avoid even that tiny risk.
And then there are these people saying the ye olde: 'YEAH BUT IN THAT REASONING YOU CAN'T EVEN GO OUTSIDE!'
No. You CAN'T prevent a tiny comet from shooting through your head, but you CAN prevent crashing down in a plane, by not going on one. The chance of getting run over by a car is non-existent. If you watch out well, you usually won't get ran over by a car, you know?(Yeah, sure, alright alright, you can't ALWAYS avoid getting hit by a car, but you know what I mean.) You can't avoid ALL risks, but there are some you can avoid or minimize. That's just what I'm doing.

 

[Trebuchet]

Well put, Dimensional Transition. There can be logic in a phobia, even if it is a stretch to find it sometimes.

But the OP's assumption seems to be that phobias represent a failure of logic. Clearly they aren't, or they could be treated with logic. Harold Levinson wrote a book called Phobia Free, in which he explains that many phobias are the result of an inner ear dysfunction, a physical problem.

 

[Dimensional Transition]

Harold Levinson wrote a book called Phobia Free, in which he explains that many phobias are the result of an inner ear dysfunction, a physical problem.

Oh, interesting...
I have had a weird feeling in my right ear for a long time, as if my eardrums move inwards when inhaling and move outwards when exhaling. And I also seem to suffer from minor tinnitus in that same ear. Could this be an indication of what Harold means?

 

[aaaw]

You answered your own question in the title

phobias are irrational

.

They are irrational so they are not able to be rationalised away.

 

[Zionoxis]

Here is my view of the thought. The phobia may not be part of your conscious in the first place. If it is in your subconscious, it is going to require a lot more than simply reasoning through it. No amount of reasoning is going to make the fear go away. For whatever reason it is there, logic is not the solution. Phobias are the same as normal fear, they simply apply to different people. I find it interesting that it is considered 'irrational' to be afraid of something others are not.

If one is afraid, one is afraid. You can tell a child that monsters are not under his bed all you want, but he will still be afraid when you turn off the light and leave. Phobias can be gotten rid of, but not necessarily by logic. I believe a better solution would be time.

 

[Awaken]

Overcoming a rational fear is easy. You still have control over your thoughts etc. You have the awareness to come to the conclusion whether something is indeed harmful or not.

I consider myself a very rational person. Much more so than the general population. I have not experienced fear in a long time. Things that make most people flinch is simply recognized by my brain, and I quickly realize a heightened state of awareness that gives me that much more brain power to make an assessment of a situation. Most of the time I can dismiss a situation in milliseconds whereas others would have lasting effects.

If I were at a zoo(or wherever you would find a spider) and someone had a tarantula that was not poisonous(and I knew without a doubt it was not poisonous) and decided to put it on my arm as a joke I would scream like a 5 year old girl and freak the fuck out. There is something in my being that does not like spiders. It is an uncontrollable fear. My thoughts are so strong and loud in my head that I cannot control them. This leads to my irrational response to any situation involving a spider.

I have a respectful reluctance around snakes. If one were to jump out in front of me I would jump back like any normal person. However, if at a zoo and someone has a huge snake that is known to be non-poisonous, I would hold the snake.


I imagine it is a subjective feeling I had as a kid that I encoded so strongly in my brain that it is automatically triggered in the presence or mere thought of a big hairy spider. I do recall being at a festival at around the age of 8-10(maybe younger) and sitting behind a lady who was unaware of a huge spider crawling up her back. Luckily someone else noticed and calmly knocked it off of her back without freaking everybody else sitting down(30+ people). I remember just feeling frozen in my current state of fear. My young mind wanted to jump up and run for the hills while screaming my little head off. However, I think that at the time I subconsciously recognized that I was in public amongst a large group of people quietly listening to someone talking. In such a situation I rationally made the judgement to not react as to not disturb the crowd. However, the experience may have been just too strong for my brain to let it go and it subconsciously haunts me till this day.

Or I can be completely wrong. Who the hell knows. All I know is spiders are scary as shit.

 

[Zensunni]

I am only afraid of things that think I am food. I don't let the fear control me, I just let it make me hyper-alert to my surroundings. Like when walking through bear country or swimming near sharks or barracudas.

 

[Minuend]

This actually makes some sense. It would explain some phobias rather easily, but what about the most debilitating phobias? Claustrophobia, agoraphobia, and noctophobia (fear of the dark)? How does one become conditioned to fear small enclosed spaces, or wide open spaces, or crowds, or the dark? Or, are you suggesting that these may go further back, into our genetic memory?

There are probably more factors involved.

I did read some articles Fukyo presented that suggested incidents in childhood can alter your neurological patterns because your brain is being developed. If you experience being closed in (having a traumatic experience) this might connect some neurons in such a way that you become scared of it happening again.

Fear of the dark is probably a "genetic" fear as well. We can't see too good and we become rather helpless when trying to navigate in a dark rooms. Some get a sense that there is someone out to get you. Which could be true, you wouldn't know as you can't see anything.

In addition; This argument about irrational behaviour makes no sense. It's characteristics that is born out of our genes and environment. It's consequences. Humans aren't created by logic, logic is created by humans. If logic can't explain human behaviour, then is our creation really that flawless?

 

[Fukyo]

Just deciding that a fear is irrational and whisking it away like that is nice, but it doesn't really work that way. The answer to rationalizing fear and phobias is neurological, and you'll probably find your answers there.

Here, just a quick stroll through Wikipedia. (Fear)

People develop specific fears as a result of learning. This has been studied in psychology as fear conditioning, beginning with John B. Watson's Little Albert experiment in 1920. In this study, an 11-month-old boy was conditioned to fear a white rat in the laboratory. The fear became generalized to include other white, furry objects. In the real world, fear can be acquired by a frightening traumatic accident. For example, if a child falls into a well and struggles to get out, he or she may develop a fear of wells, heights (acrophobia), enclosed spaces (claustrophobia), or water (aquaphobia). There are studies looking at areas of the brain that are affected in relation to fear. When looking at these areas (amygdala), it was proposed that a person learns to fear regardless of whether they themselves have experienced trauma, or if they have observed the fear in others. In a study completed by Andreas Olsson, Katherine I. Nearing and Elizabeth A. Phelps the amygdala were affected both when subjects observed someone else being submitted to an aversive event, knowing that the same treatment awaited themselves, and when subjects were subsequently placed in a fear-provoking situation. This suggests that fear can develop in both conditions, not just simply from personal history.

The amygdala is a key brain structure in the neurobiology of fear. It is involved in the processing of negative emotions (such as fear and anger). Researchers have observed hyperactivity in the amygdala when patients were shown threatening faces or confronted with frightening situations. Patients with a more severe social phobia showed a correlation with increased response in the amygdala. Studies have also shown that subjects exposed to images of frightened faces, or faces of people from another race, exhibit increased activity in the amygdala.

The fear response generated by the amygdala can be mitigated by another brain region known as the rostral anterior cingulate cortex, located in the frontal lobe. In a 2006 study at Columbia University, researchers observed that test subjects experienced less activity in the amygdala when they consciously perceived fearful stimuli than when they unconsciously perceived fearful stimuli. In the former case, they discovered the rostral anterior cingulate cortex activates to dampen activity in amygdala, granting the subjects a degree of emotional control

Disgust is another primary emotion that plays a role in another anxious disorder; OCD.

The emotion of disgust may have an important role in understanding the neurobiology of obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD), particularly in those with contamination preoccupations[24]. In a study by Shapira & colleagues (2003), eight OCD subjects with contamination preoccupations and eight healthy volunteers viewed pictures from the International Affective Picture System during f-MRI scans. OCD subjects showed significantly greater neural responses to disgust-invoking images, specifically in the right insula. Furthermore, Sprengelmeyer (1997) found that the brain activation associated with disgust included the insula and part of the gustatory cortex that processes unpleasant tastes and smells. OCD subjects and healthy volunteers showed activation patterns in response to disgust pictures that differed significantly at the right insula. In contrast, the two groups were similar in their response to threat-inducing pictures, with no significant group differences at any site

(one of those studies Minuend mentioned finds that parental verbal abuse can cause "limbic irritability" (amygdala is a part of the limbic system), and other effects on brain development as a result of brain plasticity. Which could possibly play a role in being susceptible to anxious disorders. (link)

 

[shoeless]

i know a thing or two about phobias. any kind of bug terrifies me. even like a ladybug.
it's unfortunate that logic can't control the physical reaction of anxiety and fear that triggers when the object of your phobia is presented to you.
very unfortunate.
humans are emotional creatures, and anyone who declares otherwise is clearly in denial. or something.

 

[Jennywocky]

then why do people continue in their fear once they realize they have a phobia?

The defiinition of a phobia is:What I don't undersstand is why people are unable to get past their phobias once they realize it is illogical. Are phobics simply unable to use logic when it comes to their fear?

Having never personally had a phobia, it's difficult to be sure, but I like to think that if I had a phobia and someone confronted me with the fact that, by definition, that phobia was illogical, I'd be able to reason my way out of the fear. Even if I didn't completely dispel the fear, I'm sure that applying a little logic to the situation would allow me to dispel enough of the fear that it wouldn't be debilitating.

Anyone have any clue as to why phobics continue in fear after realizing the irrationality of that fear?

It sounds to me like you just haven't run into any irrational fears that have been too big for you to overcome easily by logic.

There are some fears that are visceral and inborn -- someone mentioned spiders, which is my personal "tangible" paranoia. Mice, snakes, sharks, lightning, heights, whatever else, all do nothing to me, I'm both fascinated and terrified by them ever since I can remember. (I couldn't even touch pictures of spiders in science books without completely freaking; and in video games nowadays, many years into adulthood, I just freakin' hate fighting giant spiders, which seem to be the staple of just about every computer RPG I find! I can't even look at them while fighting them, I just sort of peripheral it.) While I can use my will to help me stand my ground, I can't help but feel my skin crawl, and if one lands on me unexpectedly, it takes a lot for me not to freak out completely inside (although outside people might not see much).

But even with that, yeah, personality preferences really do play a large role in how we respond.

As some flavor of INTP, while there have been some really scary things I've had to deal with in life (things I have experienced much anxiety over), I typically respond in counterphobic ways: I force myself to do things that scare me, if I realize I need to do them in order to become a better person and/or achieve my larger goal.

My ESFP son on the other hand has never easily been able to think rationally when his emotional fears are eating at him. He just completely loses it and seems to not be able to "make himself do" things that he needs to do. One thing he seems terrified of is physical pain or memory of such pain, and even if it's quite clear he needs to do something he doesn't want to do (like get a shot, drink a gross substance for tests, etc.), it's very easy for him to work himself up into a mess, even sometimes vomiting.

I have to say, it drove me crazy and I'd become very frustrated with him... but I could also perceive that he couldn't do any better than what he was doing, even if I could do better in the situation myself.

In any case, that's some of the reality that expresses legitimate difficulty with "powering through phobias." I know there are some who just don't deal because they are lazy, or cowardly, or stubborn. It's just hard sometimes to discern which is which, and what things are easier to change vs harder.

 

[GYX_Kid]

too much habit, not enough balls/reason/incentive

 

[Solitaire U.]

We've had positive results logically applying logic to dispel several of my CO-Schizophrenic nephew's irrational fears. Dogs for example...he used to be terrified of all dogs, even the tiniest. The thing about phobias is that they all extend from rational fears. Overcoming them is a pretty simple process (for my Nephew)...confirm his rational basis, help him learn how to make rational assessments of the feared element, demonstrate the results with him as an active participant, taking him by the hand or whatever is necessary to persuade him to do so.

I think inability to overcome phobias is based more on trust issues than rational fears.

 

[Lobstrich]

I have a serious case of arachnophobia (yes, I'm not very original) I can't even touch books with pictures of spiders on them. I can however, see movies and play games with spiders, not without getting "the creeps" though.

I realize that it's the dumbest thing, being afraid of harmless creatures. I just don't know why I'm afraid of them. But if I get surprised by a spider that suddenly comes crawling up the side of my bed of something, I literally get so scared that my heart pumps as if someone is threatening to kill me. I don't scream though. I just get really, really, really scared.. It's funny to be honest.

 

[socialexpat]

I have a serious case of arachnophobia (yes, I'm not very original) I can't even touch books with pictures of spiders on them. I can however, see movies and play games with spiders, not without getting "the creeps" though.

I realize that it's the dumbest thing, being afraid of harmless creatures. I just don't know why I'm afraid of them. But if I get surprised by a spider that suddenly comes crawling up the side of my bed of something, I literally get so scared that my heart pumps as if someone is threatening to kill me. I don't scream though. I just get really, really, really scared.. It's funny to be honest.

They aren't always harmless for some countries and can be nasty.
But i do think that if you want to conquer your fear of Arachnids you should confront yourself with it, starting with drawings, pictures and eventually taking it that far to take a look at an actual spider in a web somewhere.. You may find out very soon that domestic spiders have no hostile behaviour other then running away from you .. They are keen little creatures.
It is a normal response to be jumpy if you see something crawling on your wall that isn't supposed to be there .. Your Arachnaphobia enforces that.
I bet if you get more into the mindset that spiders aren't harmful and convince yourself that domestic spiders are simple insects .. You will find yourself to be less scared if they happen to be on your wall / ceiling / floor.
Loosen up about it.

 

[notrightnow]

In addition to everything mentioned remember that every time a person reacts to the phobia stimulus they are strengthening a conditioned response. So now you have a combo of subconscious & conditioning vs rational understanding. Since rational thinking is a slower function than the other two & generally one responds to the stimulus before rational thought starts it can make it difficult to just reason away the phobia. However, through diligence and effort I think many phobias can be overcome.

My irrational phobia: caterpillars......ungh

 

[gruesomebrat]

But even with that, yeah, personality preferences really do play a large role in how we respond.

As some flavor of INTP, while there have been some really scary things I've had to deal with in life (things I have experienced much anxiety over), I typically respond in counterphobic ways: I force myself to do things that scare me, if I realize I need to do them in order to become a better person and/or achieve my larger goal.

I've often responded in a similar way to open heights. I'm perfectly fine to go as high as I want in a building, but put me on a ladder, and I'm hard-pressed to go much higher than 10 feet. If I have to get up to the gutters to clean them out, though, I can relatively easily force myself to climb the 20 feet required to reach the second floor gutters. I never really considered this to be a phobia, per se, because I was able to force my way through the initial fear and continue climbing.

It's funny to be honest.

Please tell me you meant to put a comma between 'funny' and 'to'... without it, this looks like you're saying that being honest amuses you.

 

[Lobstrich]

They aren't always harmless for some countries and can be nasty.
But i do think that if you want to conquer your fear of Arachnids you should confront yourself with it, starting with drawings, pictures and eventually taking it that far to take a look at an actual spider in a web somewhere.. You may find out very soon that domestic spiders have no hostile behaviour other then running away from you .. They are keen little creatures.
It is a normal response to be jumpy if you see something crawling on your wall that isn't supposed to be there .. Your Arachnaphobia enforces that.
I bet if you get more into the mindset that spiders aren't harmful and convince yourself that domestic spiders are simple insects .. You will find yourself to be less scared if they happen to be on your wall / ceiling / floor.
Loosen up about it.

Yeah, I know some Arachnids can be very dangerous. And all you said, is exactly what I try to do. You know when you are on youtube, and you go from video to video. I sometimes end up on insects. And I force myself to watch them, but it still doesn't make my fear "go away"

 

[Lobstrich]

Please tell me you meant to put a comma between 'funny' and 'to'... without it, this looks like you're saying that being honest amuses you.

Hahaha, yes. I wanted there to be a comma in there. Must have been late or something. I rarely make grammar mistakes that obvious.

 

[crippli]

I don't think I have many phobias that renders me panicked.

Maybe a slight thing for spiders. As I find them uncomfortable crawling over me. At some point I had these vivid images of them finding their way into my bran and laying eggs there. Then the horrible pain when they start to eat away at the delicacy.

Probably seen to many bad movies. Or I could go with Minuends rational explanation. I don't consider this a true fear though. Just worried when they are crawling around openings on the body.

 

[Joey]

I think your all thinking a little too much on this one. It was touched on but... Most of the people reading this right now are INTP. If we were XXFX then yea, phobias become a much more likely reality. We have the ability to see "the spider" and jolt back at first (cuz we have quick ass physical reflexes) but immidiately aply logic. AAAND since weve done that OUR WHOLE LIVES we never followed a fear pattern with something illogical for very long, so these things didnt get drilled into our neural pathways as much. Its the feelers (id like to bet) that have more of a predisposition to phobias. We think through it.

Also interestingly enough, I tend to think the types ESFJ would be more animalistic traits, and then through evolution the other extreme of these traits came into existence...INTP. So we dont normally get phobias as much, or get them logically either cuz its foreign to us.

Dont get me wrong, i do have some fears myself, but it was from one significant traumatic event that i didnt have control over and made a paranoia that i wouldnt normally have. Generally our type of person can deal with any "normal life circumstances" like fears very well.

 

[Trebuchet]

Generally our type of person can deal with any "normal life circumstances" like fears very well.

Yes, INTPs handle fear and other normal emotions well enough. But phobias are not the same as normal fear. Any personality type could be subject to phobias, even if they differ in how they cope with it.

 

[scorpiomover]

Anyone have any clue as to why phobics continue in fear after realizing the irrationality of that fear?

Phobias, fears, are part of the amygdala-hypothalamus circuit. By default, the circuit is independent of the higher reasoning functions. This has the advantage, that if you encounter something dangerous, say a grizzly while in Yellowstone Park, that you don't stop and think about the matter for 20 minutes, before acting. So this is actually what you'd want. However, the disadvantage, is that for exactly the same reason, even when you have deemed the fear to be irrational, the fear-circuits continue to run anyway.

Obviously, there has to be a way to switch off the fear circuit for a particular association. But by its design, you have to use a method that relies on the amygdala-hypothalamus circuit itself, and does not directly rely on reason, as reason comes from higher reasoning functions, and the fear circuit is independent of higher reasoning functions.

 

[Tangent]

Well I have a phobia of lizards and I know it is utterly irrational but I had enough bad luck with lizards early on (lizards falling on my head while I sleep, stepping on spiky lizards, swimming in my pool only to open my eyes and find a water dragon starring at me, water dragons reakig into my house and getting into my room etc etc) to have formed some pretty strong "lizard=fear" neural connections that are not easy broken. And my actions reinforce the fear. I worry there may be a lizard on my back so I take off my jumper to check... No lizard... Anxiety goes down... Now it's rewarding for me to check evey nook and cranny for lizards 100 times. I recently broke this pattern of obsessive "checking" though I wonder whether I would have been able to do so if I still lived next to a lizard-filled nature reserve.

As for logic being able to override one's actions and emotions, think about this: it'd be logical for us all to stop procrastinating on online forums and go do productive work we've been putting off... It'd be logical for us to indulge people with the social convention of hugging and experience no discomfort from it etc etc

 

[scorpiomover]

As for logic being able to override one's actions and emotions, think about this: it'd be logical for us all to stop procrastinating on online forums and go do productive work we've been putting off...

I quite agree. I've been wondering about that. I came to the conclusion that 1) I need social contact, and this is one way I get my fix, 2) It's a great way to claim that I have lots of great ideas, without having to do the proper effort of putting them into motion.

If we could only learn to control these 2 things better, think of what we could achieve, for ourselves, and for humanity.