I believe in aliens

[ilike2poison]

This has become a hot topic as of late. With the not-so-recent admittance by the Vatican that there "maybe" extraterrestrial life out there, the 2001 film "disclosure Project", and a host of other logical reasons to believe that we are not alone, one begins to wonder about our actual place in the Universe. Clearly, if we were to indeed prove that we have never been alone, then nearly all the religions in the world would become useless. Society as it is known will forever change and religion (mainly Christianity) would cease to exist. I mean, in Christianity, God himself became man and walked with us defying the laws of physics and reason for the salvation of mankind. Well, what about the other races in the trillions of planets in the trillions of other stars in our Universe? Do they get saved too or is it just a human thing? Doesn't seem practical for God to go from Place to place getting himself killed for the "salvation" of things He created to begin with. Yet, this is exactly what the Vatican is stating, in their admittance of alien life. This is the same organization know for killing, burning, hanging and doing countless other deeds in the name of reversing or stopping any type of intellectual or theological assault on the catholic church. But aliens may be real? Now? Why? What's going on behind the scenes that has pushed them into such a colossally dangerous position? Survival. I predict shit to hit the fan mighty soon and think the church was just preparing itself -and the unfortunately-idealistic people, for disclosure. I think it harder to believe that we are alone in this universe than not, but I also think it isn't known because of the emotional impact this would have on humanity. people would bug.thee.fuck.OUT. What do you think?

 

[₲uardian]

I believe that aliens probably exist, I just don't think about the idea because it doesn't effect me or anything on this planet as far as I know.

 

[Dapper Dan]

I have yet to figure out how the Vatican manages to retain any sort of legitimacy.

Also, this belongs in the religion subforum.

 

[ilike2poison]

@Dan Apologies, it's my second day here @Guardian Their existence has implications on the very economy of our planet, the origin of our species and our future. This is very real, but very hidden. "So where's the proof, ya back-alley drunkard?" Take a look at this:

UFO - Former Canadian Defense Minister IMPORTANT - YouTube

And this:

http://youtu.be/PjQqv2bgmwE

 

[crippli]

What is life? Can't you just ask if there is energy elsewhere then here? I guess what is not so clear is if life is more then star animated energy through planetary matter?

Spoiler

A side question. do you guys believe in anti Aliens? as in anti material life.

 

[ilike2poison]

Life is much more than just energy. If you go by Einstein's theory of general relativity, Energy equals Mass, multiplied by the speed of light squared. In essence, everything except space and time is made up of the same thing. That would make everything alive so therefore wouldn't constitute as life. Are you trying to define consciousness as "energy" and that is the definition of life? What do you mean by "star-animated"? I'm not sure I follow Crippli. Oh, and yes, I also do believe in anti-life. In my my mind, existence is a multi-dimentional representation of the number zero, with the only way something is able to exists is if its absolute opposite exists, or a combination of values that total the "objects" absolute opposite value. So for us to be here, our absolute opposite must also be in the absolute opposite "there".

 

[Tolleck]

Well, we don't have much evidence of aliens to go on in my opinion.. Most if not all UFOs could be man made. Tesla, in the early 1900s, had plans of an electrically propelled "flying machine". Since then the Nazis also pursued this technology and even our gov. has been rumored to possess it. If the technology produces its own gravity field then it could easily appear to defy the laws of physics because time would pass by at a different rate. The glow and nature of many of the UFOs even appear to be powered by plasma.

Multidimensional beings is another option.. or beings that come from another dimension that operates at a much higher frequency than our world (sort of like ether). Consciousness is known to operate on these high frequencies and could be a part of this dimension . Thus a "spirit" world doesn't seem so far fetched. Energy is just the result of force acting on matter. Matter vibrates at different frequencies producing different "energy" (eg. microwaves, light, gamma rays) I believe everything is made up of the same thing. Ether explains it all pretty well IMO but don't grill me if you are a relativity believer.

 

[Meer]

Yikes, where did all this gunk come from?

 

[ilike2poison]

Believing in general relativity and any form of quantum mechanics or M-theory simultaneously isn't a ridiculous idea. But you say relativity believer as if the Sun doesn't shine. Stephen Hawkings successfully combined both theories to a small degree when he predicted that at the edge of the event horizon around a black hole, there existed what he called Hawking radiation which were the result of quantum fluctuations in the vacuum of space... and... getting... sleepy... explaining...

Anyway, to touch on your other point, I don't believe most if not all all ufos are man-made. what man-made craft clocks in 14,000mph? these things zoom, stop, and turn. They're ufos because their crafts operate under a different set of laws of physics. Its not like you can really up and decide to make a time-traveling spaceship.

 

[Jah]

PZ Myers A Skeptical Look At Aliens TAM 2011 part 1 - YouTube

 

[Tolleck]

If the UFO technology mimicked a particle/wave (light) traveling along the medium of the ether, then speed would be no object. It would also have its own specific gravity and field causing possible effects on time. If time passed at a slower rate within the craft, then making 90 degree at high speeds could be possible. From within the craft the maneuver would seem to take minutes to execute while to outsiders it would appear to be a split second. (Taken in part from Stan Deyo's lecture "anti-gravity produced and explained")

"Anti-gravity" is not so far fetched if you can figure out how planets and atoms work. Electricity and magnetism have been around a long time and yet haven't been clearly unified and explained. For hundreds of years up until Einstein genius scientists have known about ether. Einstein tried to create a "unified field theory" but couldn't. These days the theories of relativity and the failed experiment of Morley have masked ether theory almost completely in the general scientific community. In textbooks Edison has take the place of the real geniuses of electricity and their inventions(Tesla being one, who's coils have been turned into useless entertainment). Funny how we've had the electric car since about 1830 and yet just recently brought it back.

Who can tell me what gravity is? Most just pass it off as a law of nature while not many can say HOW it works. No wonder everyone thinks antigrav is too advanced for mankind.

 

[nanook]

my family participates in an exchange project. in every generation one or two newborn kids are implanted with alien souls, which implies that they won't grow human souls. at day these kids are perfectly human and believe to be human, but at night their souls don't go to human limbo (which features jesus christ and all of those human themes) but to the alien mothersoul, where they originate anyway, where the collected information is analyzed by the other aliens, who are naturally lucid (meaning they are one with their subtle dream selves, this is where they live their lives) - the implanted alien souls however are not lucid, they are unconscious information carriers, sort of artificial, they haven not grown naturally but have been created by other aliens by means of projection. when older, those kids get a intuition of whats going on at night, sometimes in the form of abduction-hallucinations, but since they lack an own/human soul they can't get a stable ownership of dream-life and are stuck with those hunches. they only experience the borderline area of the transition, the moment when their alien soul leaves them, when they are 100% human for just a moment, until the soul leaves them unconscious and when the soul enters them again, with some updates, penetrating the human with the alien nature. the abduction hallucinations are just fabulations meant to explain the difference in this transition. can you tell if i am being serious?

 

[EditorOne]

10,000 years ago the earth was visited by exploring aliens, who came down and had a party after being introduced to beer, which was the first civilizing thing ever created by a humanity emerging from its ice age stasis. They got good and drunk, forgot that the space-time thing has odd effects, and basically said. "Beer is good. We have urquan back home. We'll go get some. Back in ten minutes. Don't wreck the place while we're gone." They will be back with the alien booze in 10 of their minutes. They still won't be sober. Meanwhile we've had a 10,000 year hangover.

It makes as much sense as anything. Don't bother pointing out the inconsistencies, and for those with an impairment, I'm joking.

I remain equally sceptical about aliens, God, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. God almighty or ancient aliens or simple unknowable phenomena, I fail to see why something I don't understand requires me to solemnly react with drop-jawed reverence and create an explanation that fits within the limits of my comprehension. I prefer suspicion and irreverence until given reason to adopt some other attitude.

 

[Roran]

For me it isn't a question of belief so much as it is one of probability. There are shitloads of planets in this universe (billions of billions) that the likelihood of this being the only one that supports intelligent life is insanely low. Even given that the probability of a life supporting planet is low, there are so many planets that it is probabilistically bound to happen somewhere besides here.

 

[ilike2poison]

You simply CANT put aliens in the same category as, geeze, Santa Claus. Is it difficult to think that perhaps in a universe this big that WE are not the only ones? Our solar system is fairly young in cosmic terms, why here and now ONLY? It stands to reason, like Roran said, that there'd be life somewhere out there just basing it on probability. No way are we alone, it would be arrogant to think so. Look at human history, the Summerians etched in stone the Earth, along with every other planet (plus 3 extra), orbiting the Sun over 6,000 years ago. Not big news, but when you consider people were being hung to negate that very idea alone as recent as 500 years ago, you begin to wonder where they got this knowledge from. I know everyone here can at least agree there is a part of the picture that is being kept from us.

 

[Meer]

Being alone and being visited frequently by aliens are completely different things.

As for your Sumerian solar system claim, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zecharia_Sitchin#Translations_and_interpretations

But that's just the aliens and the government trying to cover things up, right? They don't seem very good at it.

 

[snafupants]

A small step in opening one's mind to advanced life elsewhere is buying into the Panspermia theory of cellular spreading; it's at least aesthetically appealing and hopefully a few yards short of crazy but who knows?

A few months ago I read a series of interviews with film director Stanley Kubrick, where he considered the idea of fuzzy little green men in the context of the film 2001: A Space Odyssey, which is a brilliant fucking movie, by the way.

He made two points. One using a metaphor and the other as more of a common sense thought experiment. First, the metaphor: he said, imagine you saw an ant scrawling "hey, man, I want to talk: I've been watching you!" Now, would you be more apt to squish the ant on the bottom of your boot or try to communicate with it?

The second point he made was assuming the intent of the aliens. For starters, a basic supposition you would have to make is that the alien species had damn near perfected manipulating space-time and/or wormholes and, subsequently, are probably pretty bright. So, assuming that, would they have traveled for a potentially long fucking time to blast us with ray guns? I'm leaning towards no. They would most likely want to communicate with us, take specimens for an intergalactic zoo or experimentation, or use enriched plutonium or nuclear material to keep their ship doing.

Why would they squish the ant? They wouldn't! Smart and needlessly sadistic don't often walk hand-in-hand.

 

[ilike2poison]

My Sumerian claim? I didn't make it up. Nor did I make up the Earth NOT being at the center of our universe, they just happen to state it while the rest of humanity still thought the Earth was flat. How would they even conjure up the pyragotheran theorem before Pythagorus? If they said something before and it was clearly right, listen to the rest of what they have to say. They just may not be full of shit. I took a look at the article you referred, but in reality it doesn't compare to other things that I've seen and read that point in the opposite direction. Can hundreds of thousands of people just make this up? Of course they can. But why would they? It's a colossal waste of time to just "mess" with people. You have ex-military, ex-private government contractors and ex-government officials offering to swear before congress that the things they say are true. These aren't washed-up hobos, they're credible sources of information. Being skeptical is one thing, but not looking at things from all angles won't cut it.

 

[ilike2poison]

snafu got a point. The reason I think we don't have full disclosure on the matter is because admittance to their existence is admittance to their technology. Energy generation on that scale would dwarf and render our fossil fuels obsolete. In turn the global economy would shift and no no no we won't be having that shit. Also, religions would tank. You'd walk down the street a see some fucker's head explode outta panic. That's why we don't know. But honestly, let's ridicule the subject so that way it'll never make its way into the serious mind, kind of like the Earth being round.

 

[EditorOne]

I'd rather believe in aliens, myself. However, the History Channel's latest Ancient Aliens pseudo-documentary on the subject jumbles up some really interesting stuff with a bunch of wild-haired and quite implausible self promoters who say artifacts of alien presence fall into two categories, stuff they left behind so we'd know they were here, and stuff our ancestors rendered as art, depicting what they were capable of understanding when aliens arrived. There do indeed seem to be a lot of depictions of creatures wearing what do indeed look a lot like space suits of one type or another. There are indeed some inexplicable things; I am not impressed with stone carvings or the pyramids, but please, someone explain to me how, 10,000 or even 100 years ago, anyone moved stones weighing 400 metric tons? That's 880,000 pounds. We simply wouldn't try that today, we'd building something out of smaller stones. Yet there they are in Baalbek, Lebanon, all neatly arranged and aligned to form a kind of platform.
On the other hand, it seems to me that if I were an alien visitor here and wanted to leave a mark of my existence, it wouldn't be lines scratched in the dirt at Nasca or even a 400-ton stone mystery. I'd leave a platinum time capsule with some stuff from 10,000 years ago in it and directions on what to expect next. I'd leave something not of this earth, while I was at it. On the third hand (I'm proposing three-handed aliens), I can't imagine why, if I were a three-armed alien, I'd want to leave any mark of my presence, or why I wouldn't. Beyond my comprehension, but I'm not going to go all religious simply because I don't understand something. If I did that I'd have to worship gravity.
So while there is marginally more to wonder about with aliens and specifically ancient aliens visiting us than there is with Santa Claus, it still falls broadly into the admittedly huge category of things about which I'm going to have to have more information before making up my mind.

 

[snafupants]

Good point, the verification of aliens would be absolutely devestating to basically all religions because they are ethnocentrically based on our ultimate cosmic importance. Sorry to spoil the surprise folks, but we aren't even a speck on the larger screen; humanists hate that. The cult, Heaven's Gate, pretty much fudged their BVDs over the prospect of alien contact, so who knows how people would react.

 

[LoneTophat]

Those who are so short sighted and illogical who would believe there's no extraterrestrial life, should not be considered INTP.

 

[nartarfardarbar]

 

[nanook]

i think, whether we are well aware of possibility and likelihood of aliens, or whether the notion would only cross our minds, when evoked by someone else, shortly be considered and quickly be repressed again is very much a subject to stages of development.

it's natural to be ethnocentric, humancentric, worldcentric...

these natural limits of awareness are not enforced by culture or religion, but only reflected by them.

in contrast to the people of mythic membership religions, who would perceive aliens as damned, meaning outsiders of the chosen circle, the people from earlier stages would gladly perceive aliens as literal gods, meaning they are even more human-centric in their interpretation, albeit they are less inclined to be in denial of something, which is not welcomed. that's because they could not be in denial. early stages lack the ability of repression. compare with borderline PD if you want *g*

some people say, humans can't perceive something, if they don't expect it, even when it's right in front of their eyes. this is true in some contexts. the fact gets exaggerated sometimes, i think. it's complicated. we perceive (interpret) in terms of expectations. also, expectations can distract us from something unexpected, but we are not naturally and constantly in a state of expectation. someone said, the native americans would have been unable to see a western ship on the ocean, because they did not know ships. i don't really believe that. but the concept of life on other continents, or planets, must be learned, or else there is either just a naive perception without recognition, or something known (like animals or spirits) is projected on the observed phenomenon. recognition (comprehension in terms of know objects) is related to meaning in the symbolic consciousness. without some basic form of recognition of the unknown through projection of the known, the phenomenon will be forgotten like a dream, because it would appear to be meaningless. if big birds have meaning to natives, then they would probably pay attention to ufo's. to modern man, many things are stripped of meaning, because we are used to things, that we can't understand. we see something, but won't even ask what it is. then we will forget, that we have seen it.


uh, i feel shaky about writing on this topic especially in english ..

 

[Dapper Dan]

Those who are so short sighted and illogical who would believe there's no extraterrestrial life, should not be considered INTP.

The same could be said for those who make fallacious arguments. :P

 

[ilike2poison]

I don't think ANYONE with a reasonable mind could watch the Disclosure Project and not take it seriously. Like Dr. Steven Greer said, "I invite all of you to be skeptical, but be skeptical within reason". Jah put up a video and the first thing the guy did was ridicule cosmology and its "great balls of fire". Sorry Jah, I turned that shit off immediately. I can never respect an argument that uses sarcasm and condescension as a platform to stand on.

 

[SpaceYeti]

Those who are so short sighted and illogical who would believe there's no extraterrestrial life, should not be considered INTP.

While it's wholly illogical to presume life on other planets is non-existent, when considering intelligent life we have to consider the rarity of it. There's a whole one species on our planet capable of extra-solar communication via technology right now. This intelligence also requires multicellular life, which also may be rare, all things considered. Still, though, the sheer volume of stars, surrounded by planets, that exist make it seem pretty likely some other kind of intelligence, probably able to develop similar technologies, exists somewhere.

 

[Vrecknidj]

I will believe in aliens, like ghosts, when they show up and have tea with me.

Sure, there's probably life on some other planets. Whether there are any outside our galaxy is probably not relevant, given the constraints on the ability to get here from there. Whether there are any within our galaxy is also probably not relevant for very similar reasons.

That said, if some alien race has created artificial life that can mine asteroids or something and continue to produce artificially intelligent "offspring" then eventually we may be visited by non-organic intelligent beings. Even so, like I said above, I'm still waiting for them to show up to have tea with me.

Frankly, the existence of God is more plausible than the existence of aliens that are hanging out on Earth. There is evidence for a creator (though, I admit, there are alternative explanations for the existence of the universe). There isn't much evidence for the existence of non-terrestrial-origin creatures on Earth. (Or, rather, pardon my skepticism for those who claim otherwise.)

Dave

 

[Meer]

Jah put up a video and the first thing the guy did was ridicule cosmology and its "great balls of fire". Sorry Jah, I turned that shit off immediately. I can never respect an argument that uses sarcasm and condescension as a platform to stand on.

Did you notice all the laughter coming from the audience? What you heard wasn't his argument or platform, it was an entertaining introduction: a joke.

You seem to be frighteningly narrow-minded.

 

[EditorOne]

INTPs who aren't allowed to use sarcasm are pretty much disarmed, then, aren't they?

I'll be quite disappointed if there isn't life somewhere else. It is just too dismaying to think we're it. I'm just not buying "they've been here and will be back and left ambiguous signs of their visit" or "they are here but are hiding". The alien-point-of-view logic in either paradigm escapes me except in two science fiction-worthy scenarios.

First, we're an intergalactic penal colony, an Australia for our corner of the universe, where a bunch of incorrigible criminals were sent 10,000 years ago.
Second, we are such a virulent, violent, aggressive species that we've been quarantined until we learn how to get along.

 

[ilike2poison]

Did you notice all the laughter coming from the audience? What you heard wasn't his argument or platform, it was an entertaining introduction: a joke.

You seem to be frighteningly narrow-minded.

Gasp! a joke? is that what laughter sounds like? Oh man, meer. You're a fucking genius.

Look at the tone his "joke" set for the rest of the event, anyone who would have had an opposing opinion would've been ridiculed. Next, he states how his science is the "best!", which is about a prejudiced as you can become and still have the audacity to call yourself scientific. Read in between the lines, buddy. like, if I propose the idea of being visited by extra-terrestrials how can I be "frighteningly narrow minded"? these n-u-tees.