How many of you are pacifists?

[nschlaff]

I have not met a lot of INTPs who are super-patriotic or hawkish. And just wanted to confirm this suspicion by asking you whether you believe strongly in patriotism, or any cause or belief system for that matter? Also, what are your views on the military?

To answer my own questions: I do not like patriotism because it distorts truth. I hate war because there are more intelligent ways to resolve things than killing each other. I think we should replace the military with diplomacy, or virtual reality video games as someone proposed earlier.

Curious to hear your replies!

 

[redbaron]

I don't think either pacifism or patriotism are good things.

Some situations require force, though most don't. There are always going to be people who will try to oppress, hurt, control and kill other people. If people like this exist, hold a very real power to do so, and they either don't listen or don't care to change, then there's really no way of stopping them from doing so that doesn't involve force.

Hitler and WWII come to mind. How else would you have stopped the Nazis short of using force?

This is a rare case though, I rarely condone the use of violence. Not because it's less intelligent than other methods of solving problems, but because it's less effective long-term.

I think the ideal of the military is a good one, though in practice it is often less than ideal.

 

[Bhagavat]

In my current state of mind, I would have to conclude my pacifism, most definitely.

 

[Puffy]

I could be described as a pacifist in my day-to-day activity, as I have a great dislike for violence, both physically or against personality. But in general I'm wary about projecting my personal values on broad, political levels.

 

[Architect]

Pacifism is not necessarily the opposite of patriotism.

I believe that it is worth going to war against totalitarian governments, especially religious ones. They are too dangerous to humanity and their population to be allowed to continue. In this sense I am 'pro democracy'.

However I am not 'pro U.S.A'. While I do believe I live in the best country on the planet, I certainly don't want to promote it overseas. Unfortunately that is occurring whether I like it or not, as more countries become capitalistic and westernized/americanized.

Thus I am not a pacifist, and not (especially) patriotic.

 

[pjoa09]

I am

pacifist
pacifist
pacifist
oh you are fucking dead now.

 

[intpz]

Don't join groups. Groups are bad for you. And for others if you have strong Fe.

 

[TriflinThomas]

I don't think either pacifism or patriotism are good things.

Some situations require force, though most don't. There are always going to be people who will try to oppress, hurt, control and kill other people. If people like this exist, hold a very real power to do so, and they either don't listen or don't care to change, then there's really no way of stopping them from doing so that doesn't involve force.

Hitler and WWII come to mind. How else would you have stopped the Nazis short of using force?

This is a rare case though, I rarely condone the use of violence. Not because it's less intelligent than other methods of solving problems, but because it's less effective long-term.

I think the ideal of the military is a good one, though in practice it is often less than ideal.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Reluctantly]

I used to be. Then I realized order begets order and I see pacifism as an ideal. But I also believe one can't know or attain peace without war. Human beings compete and it is only when that competition has ended does there ever seem to be any peace, even if it doesn't last too long. To suggest peace without war or over war seems like an oxymoron.

 

[travelnjones]

No at all, i actively want to see some people hurt. Like rather than jail time maybe a societal slap counter. I bet people would be nice if they knew everybody could give them a freebie ass whoopin

 

[kora]

In general, I would say that violence only ever seems to be a short term solution and ultimately will provoke more violence, their are examples were it was necessary (such as WW2). I don't get violence really, i just don't understand that anything can be worth killing someone over, except maybe them killing people.

I'm patriotic in so far as I love my city, living there and stuff. That's it though, it's not a subject of debate, i wouldn't be pissed off if someone else didn't like it or anything.

 

[SMO]

Human beings are violent, it is our nature, to assume that collectively we will reach some pinnacle of thought or intellectual cohesion is just wrong. We have basically been the same since we started to develop language. You can try to think of a logical sensible solution to a problem but there will always be those who lust for power, jealousy, anger, betrayal, people who hate others and people who are just mentally deranged. Violence is a necessary part of human existence.

Just a short story: When I was in kindergarten, a kid would punch me every day for no reason that I knew of. I was at my grandparents and told my grandmother, she said that I should tell him, "Jesus would not want him to do that", I thought about that for a while. I then sought a second opinion and asked my grandfather who told me, "tomorrow, I want you to walk up to him as soon as you see him, punch him as hard as you can", I opted for my grandfathers advice, I punched the boy and he fell to the ground, he never touched me again, it was a pretty profound experience even to a 5 year old.

 

[RobdoR]

I was in the US Air Force until recently. But it felt more like a fascist club than a killing force. I never had to seriously confront my views on pacifism. I wouldn't call myself super patriotic, and definitely not hawkish, although I do like to sing "Proud to be an American" from time to time.

 

[FlowerThug]

I think patriotism is very unnecessary. Nothing to be proud about being born in, or being a citizen of a mass of land enclosed in man made borders. Patriotic behavior in general, or to me it seems like, completely disregards populations split by borders.

America is a very powerful country yes, and with high standards of living, but that is not something to be proud of. Especially when you consider the non monetary costs the lead to such "prosperity". And the same can be said for most other developed countries.

I am a pseudo-pacifist. Though I've never been in a fight, I've never backed down from one either. Not that there have been many occasions where I got in any sort of testy situations.

On a national level, I think most wars are/were/will be very unnecessary.

 

[A22]

Soldiers are submissive and can't or don't want to realize they are killing their peers when at war. It's just dumb for a soldier to kill another soldier because of "an order" (the "enemy" is doing the same!)

Yes I'm a pacifist. I don't think the military is dumb, on the contrary, generals are very persuasive and intelligent. Soldiers on the other hand...

I used to be. Then I realized order begets order and I see pacifism as an ideal. But I also believe one can't know or attain peace without war. Human beings compete and it is only when that competition has ended does there ever seem to be any peace, even if it doesn't last too long. To suggest peace without war or over war seems like an oxymoron.

And competition leads to wars?

 

[Absurdity]

"It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge. War endures. As well ask men what they think of stone. War was always here. Before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner. That is the way it was and will be….
War is the ultimate game because war is at last a forcing of the unity of existence. War is god."


- Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian

 

[Analyzer]

The non-aggression principle is better.

 

[Proletar]

Patriotism and pacifism are not opposites. I'm not a pacifist, but I sure as hell am not a patriot, but an internationalist. All people should unite.

Nations are a dumb idea. If we divide the world into 300 or so teams and give them a national economy each, things will blow up. Believing in your nation is just as stupid as believing in your particular religion.

 

[PhoenixRising]

Patriotism is kind of like school spirit. You know, that thing that all the cheerleaders in high school did with their pom poms and their school mascot.. er whatever. Both mindsets are derived from the primitive human desire to belong to a tribe and assert their significance over the existence of other tribes.

True pacifism would leave one defenseless in any sort of disagreement. A diplomatic mindset is different than one of complete pacifism. It is good to seek peace with all persons, however it is also important to stand up for your principles. Finding a common ground or a point at which both party's views can be balanced is, in my opinion, the most logical course of action.

Most of you are probably familiar with the desiderata. This document communicates the truly diplomatic mindset in the first few phrases:
http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~gongsu/desiderata_textonly.html

 

[Duxwing]

Speak softly, but carry a big stick. However, use this maxim in the service of globalism, and the world will profit.

-Duxwing

 

[DeadonDreaming]

Pacifism is not necessarily the opposite of patriotism.

I believe that it is worth going to war against totalitarian governments, especially religious ones. They are too dangerous to humanity and their population to be allowed to continue. In this sense I am 'pro democracy'.

However I am not 'pro U.S.A'. While I do believe I live in the best country on the planet, I certainly don't want to promote it overseas. Unfortunately that is occurring whether I like it or not, as more countries become capitalistic and westernized/americanized.

Thus I am not a pacifist, and not (especially) patriotic.

I agree with this sentiment. I'm a libertarian, who usually are isolationist, except I do believe there are certain societies that are too dangerous not to fight.

 

[Solitaire U.]

I think we should replace the military with diplomacy...

Hmmm...'military' and 'diplomacy' are synonyms...

As are 'patriotism' and 'propaganda'.

 

[SpaceYeti]

I have not met a lot of INTPs who are super-patriotic or hawkish. And just wanted to confirm this suspicion by asking you whether you believe strongly in patriotism, or any cause or belief system for that matter? Also, what are your views on the military?

It exists. Seriously, though, I think the military is a good thing, useful specifically for defending the nations which sponsors it, and that nation's allies.

I hate war because there are more intelligent ways to resolve things than killing each other. I think we should replace the military with diplomacy, or virtual reality video games as someone proposed earlier.

People are simply not reasonable enough for that to work. There are violent, irrational cultures, who will choose violence until someone out-violences them and forces them to stop.

 

[eagor]

i am not a pacifist by any means, i prefer to keep my options open in case i need to defend myself or more importantly someone i care about. it's like what my father always told me "words aren't bulletproof, but they can stay the trigger finger"

 

[Ganpot]

Sorry for responding so late (I just registered), but I feel this needs to be said.

Mankind did not create war. Nor are we its ultimate practitioners. War is just another word for competition (albeit, violent competition). Every organism in existence is at war, every second of every day. Most people look out at a forest or meadow and see a peaceful landscape. In reality, it is a battlefield, with every plant vying for limited sunlight and root space while herbivores prey upon the plants and carnivores prey upon the herbivores in turn.

The Spanish Influenza of 1918 is estimated to have killed between 50 and 100 million people around the world. It had less than a 20% mortality rate, but infected over a third of all humans on the planet. In contrast, WWII only had up to 60 million casualties (still a lot, but much less than the Spanish Flu). If you're looking for war's ultimate practitioner, viruses and other microbes are your culprit.

But war is more than just mindless competition. It is also the very essence of evolution. Without war, organisms would largely stagnate. Even in humans, war drives progress. Gunpowder, airplanes, submarines, and spaceships were all utilized primarily for warfare. To be pacifist is to wish for an end of all life (or be delusional).

Now then, on to the concept of patriotism. I agree with what others have said: patriotism is largely irrational and self-destructive because it blinds its practitioners to the faults in their own country/tribe/team. However, it is also somewhat necessary in order to drum up support for the government and military. I honestly don't know whether I would agree with countries dissolving and forming a single human government. With no competition, there would be no incentive to advance, and corruption would probably become more wide-spread.