HOW ARE WE SEEN THRU OTHERS' EYES?

[Da Blob]

...and in these two short lines you have encapsulated that gnawing thing that has plagued me always about relating to others. All these years of trying to put my finger on the problem but having it slip away. Evade me.

Now I know. Thank you.

(...and knowing the problem, have you found a cure? I'm guessing not. I'm guessing I, you, everyone afflicted, will die this way...)

No, I don't have a cure
But i do have some comfort..

“He who has an ear let him hear
What the Spirit says to the Churches.
To him who overcomes
I will give some of the Hidden Manna to eat
And I will give him a White Stone,
And on the Stone, a New Name written
Which no One knows except him that receives it.”

Revelations 2:17


I was going through some old family photos
(Perhaps, not the wisest thing for a depressed
Person to do at Christmas time)
I noticed that at some point in time
I quit smiling when I was photographed
So when did the happy child
Transform into the cold-hearted
Old, distant (ugly) ‘Loner’
Displaying an INTP personality?

Not being an extrovert, I believe
I formed my personas, played my roles
To become a good actor
Using my personality as a shield
Defensively responding to socially-caused Pain
I learned to mask my emotions
I became ‘unemotional’, ‘unreadable’
Yet it seems that people
Always read something
From a blank page…

I often wonder why certain people rejected Me
Didn’t they see I was still a smiling child behind a mask?
C. H. Cooley said that people are Mirrors,
Perhaps that is all I am
All people ever see their own selves reflected
From Me, a Blank page, an empty Mirror
So perhaps I am never
Seen thru Others’ Eyes

So who can see Me, know Me?
When is the word, ‘We’
Destined to acquire a deeper meaning?
Perhaps Loveofreason is right ‘We’ may have to wait…

 

[Anticitizen]

http://www.worldburnsclub.com/poems/translations/552.htm

 

[Ermine]

I noticed that at some point in time
I quit smiling when I was photographed
So when did the happy child
Transform into the cold-hearted
Old, distant (ugly) ‘Loner’
Displaying an INTP personality?

I end up asking myself the same thing every day. I also used to be a happy, externally fascinated, pretty little child. Now, after a decade or so, I'm a stereotypical INTP. I still smile for photos, and I know that beautiful, playful child is still in there. Why can't I be that playful, pretty, and fascinated all the time? There is some truth in the Bible commanding us to be like little children. It's not like I forgot how to be childlike either. That child comes out to play everytime I'm enthusiastic about something. I just seem to have lost much of my motivation. It makes me wonder what I'll be like when I'm in my 20's.

Not being an extrovert, I believe
I formed my personas, played my roles
To become a good actor
Using my personality as a shield
Defensively responding to socially-caused Pain
I learned to mask my emotions
I became ‘unemotional’, ‘unreadable’
Yet it seems that people
Always read something
From a blank page…

This kind of puzzles me. I can't say I've been deeply hurt by other people, but I've still developed the archetypal INTP "blank stare". But as blank as this stare is, people always take it as either stupidity or a grudge held against society, which they always resent.

I often wonder why certain people rejected Me
Didn’t they see I was still a smiling child behind a mask?
C. H. Cooley said that people are Mirrors,
Perhaps that is all I am
All people ever see their own selves reflected
From Me, a Blank page, an empty Mirror
So perhaps I am never
Seen thru Others’ Eyes

So who can see Me, know Me?
When is the word, ‘We’
Destined to acquire a deeper meaning?
Perhaps Loveofreason is right ‘We’ may have to wait…

This make this issue all the more pressing for me. My inner child is the best part of my personality. It's the part I want to share, but I can't bring myself to expose my inner child to such a cruel world.

 

[Auburn]

I end up asking myself the same thing every day. I also used to be a happy, externally fascinated, pretty little child. Now, after a decade or so, I'm a stereotypical INTP. I still smile for photos, and I know that beautiful, playful child is still in there. Why can't I be that playful, pretty, and fascinated all the time? There is some truth in the Bible commanding us to be like little children. It's not like I forgot how to be childlike either. That child comes out to play everytime I'm enthusiastic about something. I just seem to have lost much of my motivation. It makes me wonder what I'll be like when I'm in my 20's.

I can relate to that. My mother tells me that I've changed so much from when I was a child too. She described me as being very playful, happy, agreeable, and loving as a child; much like yourself Ermine.

Looking back, I do remember that child. It's always been there. But my introverted, distant, pensive, analytical self has always been there too, even as a child. I remember that I could still be alone for days at a time engrossed in a video game, but I could also be very playful and welcoming.

When presented with people, I always tried my best to not cause any waves. I did what was necessary to preserve the harmony, and avoid conflict. Often this would translate to being passive and all around likable. Then I would go back into my shell once the people were gone.

This make this issue all the more pressing for me. My inner child is the best part of my personality.

I personally find that both sides are equally beneficial. The inner child may seem like the best of the two because it's very nature is one which strives for pleasantness. It is the one the world likes best; the one which is given more praise. On the other hand, the very nature of the thinker is not to be pleasant, or to be agreeable, but to discover the truth. Being liked is not it's concern.

It's the part I want to share, but I can't bring myself to expose my inner child to such a cruel world.

*Auburn's inner child tugs at Ermine's inner child, saying:* "come out, come out!"

 

[Ermine]

Aww, thanks! *Auburn and Ermine's inner children sing and skip around in a sunny meadow*

Warm fuzzies.

 

[sagewolf]

Your split of the two personality facets rings very true, Auburn. I can't count the times I've wished I could let out the enthusiastic, warm, friendly, fun-loving part of me without any abandon, but it cares what people think, so it's shy. Since the observant, analytical, thinking part has a thicker skin, it's out a lot more, and that's the view people have of me.

The inner child wishes it could venture out more.

The logical part wants it to care less about what people do.

(And through it all, I shove my artistic side over on the bed and we discuss the health issues involved with fragmenting my personality like this. Oh well. xD)

My inner child comes out a lot when I'm on my own-- I read out loud, or sing along to music, or act out scenes from the stories I make up. If it ever manifests itself around other people, it's as a sort of warm affability, rather than full-out enthusiasm (except in exceptional circumstances). The rest of the time, in social company, I assume the 'blank look' that was mentioned without knowing it and just think for the entire time.

So I'd say people see me that way: friendly, if I want to bother. They know I mostly don't, though, so no-one ever strikes up a conversation with me, and I don't really know how to, so I have even less opportunity to let my inner child show.

 

[Auburn]

*little auburn pulls little sagewolf out by the hand to play with him and little ermine*

 

[loveofreason]

While I was away I found on someone's bookshelf a copy of Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid.

I didn't have time to read it all, but picked a page at random. It contained this summary of "Indra's Net"...

The Buddhist allegory of "Indra's Net" tells of an endless net of threads throughout the universe, the horizontal threads running through space, the vertical ones through time. At every crossing of the threads is an individual, and every individual is a crystal bead. The great light of "Absolute Being" illuminates and penetrates every crystal bead; moreover, every crystal bead reflects not only the light from every other crystal in the net - but also every reflection of every reflection throughout the universe.

Which summons for author, Douglas Hofstadter...

...[an] image arises: that of people, each one reflected in the minds of many others, who in turn are mirrored in yet others, and so on.

I don't have words now for how acutely this boundary-self/other-perspective thing troubles me.

I know not what I am.

 

[Perseus]

INTPs are bums (according to the Guards) as they do not do proper work. Hallelujah!

 

[Raku]

While I was away I found on someone's bookshelf a copy of Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid.

I didn't have time to read it all, but picked a page at random. It contained this summary of "Indra's Net"...

Which summons for author, Douglas Hofstadter...

I don't have words now for how acutely this boundary-self/other-perspective thing troubles me.

I know not what I am.

If you liked Godel, Escher, Bach you might also want to read 'I Am a Strange Loop' which is about the same thing. At least thats what Hofstadter writes in the preface of 'I Am a Strange Loop'

The things he writes about how we interact, 'see' eachother, become closer to eachother and eventually nearly merge with eachother (like loved ones), are really interesting and might give robi9839 a nice read.

I end up asking myself the same thing every day. I also used to be a happy, externally fascinated, pretty little child. Now, after a decade or so, I'm a stereotypical INTP. I still smile for photos, and I know that beautiful, playful child is still in there. Why can't I be that playful, pretty, and fascinated all the time? There is some truth in the Bible commanding us to be like little children. It's not like I forgot how to be childlike either. That child comes out to play everytime I'm enthusiastic about something. I just seem to have lost much of my motivation. It makes me wonder what I'll be like when I'm in my 20's.

I can really relate to that, only my change has started from my puberty and up. I used to be more social, outgoing and more extroverted. Not that I smiled more, I always was more of a negative one, but my view of everything has changed so dramaticly and so have I.

 

[Jesin]

That's what normal people are interested in? I have spent all of my life desperate to connect with people on a deeper level, struggling to get into their heads, only to find that a "deeper level" doesn't exist, and most heads are empty? *sigh* I guess they probably think I am the boring one, and it is arguably just a matter of perspective. Knowing this information does not help with my feeling of alienation, even if it alleviates some of my false hope.

The ideal connection that I seek is impossible, because when it isn't narcissistic, seeking the "me" in others, it is something even less realistic, expecting others to take the place of God by being perfect in ways that they cannot. I am the stupid one for thinking that what I want could ever exist. I am the stupid one for wanting it at all. At the core of this stupidity is a spiritual flaw, as always. It is a form of subtle idolatry to be this kind of idealist.

Instead of accepting people, limitations and all, I worship their false forms and become disappointed when they reveal themselves authentically. I cry out for truth, then hide from it when I see that it doesn't conform to my desires. I say I want to love, but find that I can only love something imaginary, because I can't accept what is real.

At least I know what I'll be praying about tonight.

I think that post fits this thread quite well.

 

[Da Blob]

I think that post fits this thread quite well.

Truth, where did you find it?

It is a hopeless quest to find the Others
The Ones that will Make-Us-Happy
in Our passive submissiveness
The Ones that belong on the pedestals above Us

We must seek Happiness
Within Our Selves
And once found, Shared with Others
Thereby Becoming a Mirror
and therefore no longer seeking One
for Our Own Reflections

 

[Waterstiller]

I just seem to have lost much of my motivation. It makes me wonder what I'll be like when I'm in my 20's.

Ah, what shall I be at 50
Should Nature keep me alive
If I find the world so bitter
When I am but twenty-five!​

(I think I'm only going to quote shit from now on, if it's not too annoying. If it is, just keep me in check.)

 

[Jesin]

Truth, where did you find it?

Look at the top of the quote box where it says "Originally Posted by <insert username here>". If you click on the little blue square with the white arrow in it, it takes you back to the post that was quoted.

 

[Da Blob]

If you liked Godel, Escher, Bach you might also want to read 'I Am a Strange Loop' which is about the same thing. At least thats what Hofstadter writes in the preface of 'I Am a Strange Loop'

The things he writes about how we interact, 'see' eachother, become closer to eachother and eventually nearly merge with eachother (like loved ones), are really interesting and might give robi9839 a nice read.

Thanks, I checked it out on the www,
now I have to find a way to check it out of a library..
(I live on a farm in the middle of nowhere)
I found a link to an interview with Doug Hofstadter
that you may find interesting


http://tal.forum2.org/hofstadter_interview?NewOnly=1&LastView=2009-01-05%2019:11:45

 

[Ex-User (221)]

I don't care how other's view me, but I'm really just posting here to state my disapproval of your spelling 'through' as "thru".

 

[Raku]

If you liked Godel, Escher, Bach you might also want to read 'I Am a Strange Loop' which is about the same thing. At least thats what Hofstadter writes in the preface of 'I Am a Strange Loop'

The things he writes about how we interact, 'see' eachother, become closer to eachother and eventually nearly merge with eachother (like loved ones), are really interesting and might give robi9839 a nice read.

Thanks, I checked it out on the www,
now I have to find a way to check it out of a library..
(I live on a farm in the middle of nowhere)
I found a link to an interview with Doug Hofstadter
that you may find interesting


http://tal.forum2.org/hofstadter_interview?NewOnly=1&LastView=2009-01-05 19:11:45

Thank you. I really found the interview interesting.

 

[Mars]

I don't remember an exact age but as a child I remember that I concluded that my emotions betrayed me too often to be trusted and that they should be denied, that and with a dysfunctional marriage as my template for relationships they seemed to cause more problems than resolutions. So, the only real concrete and safe path resided along the lines of knowledge and it application to social interaction. trial and error thus ensued.

was going through some old family photos
(Perhaps, not the wisest thing for a depressed
Person to do at Christmas time)
I noticed that at some point in time
I quit smiling when I was photographed

me too, unless it's a completely fraudulent smile. I usually say/think 'fire for effect' whenever smiles are pulled out for cameras. partially the apparent emotions came about as a defense mechanism in the home environment for me.

This kind of puzzles me. I can't say I've been deeply hurt by other people, but I've still developed the archetypal INTP "blank stare". But as blank as this stare is, people always take it as either stupidity or a grudge held against society, which they always resent.

well, this just reaffirms that my motivation for researching the 'thousand yard stare' has more of a personal basis then I could have thought.

My inner child is a rare occurrence, I suppose that when/if it does come out in a relationship it will result in me crying for a long time or being so happy I'd cry anyway. But, then i suppose that this conundrum is part of what makes us so much like a coin. Two faces, completely opposite separated by an edge that we live in and it seems to go on forever.

Aaaaand not to spoil the atmosphere, but i suspect an address to the op's question is in order. I was reading through and this response was growing and now i can't tell how relevant it is anymore, lol.

I have been called fun and intelligent and old obscure relations and friends mothers have told me that i am/will be a heartbreaker. Maybe they were onto something. because if our only real initial failing is emotional ineptness then diamons in the rough we are. meaning that relationships would start off with an almost unconceited approach, apart from the fear that is.

P.S. don't hesitate to contend anything that doesn't si right with you.

 

[Da Blob]

I don't remember an exact age but as a child I remember that I concluded that my emotions betrayed me too often to be trusted and that they should be denied, that and with a dysfunctional marriage as my template for relationships they seemed to cause more problems than resolutions. So, the only real concrete and safe path resided along the lines of knowledge and it application to social interaction. trial and error thus ensued.


My inner child is a rare occurrence, I suppose that when/if it does come out in a relationship it will result in me crying for a long time or being so happy I'd cry anyway. But, then i suppose that this conundrum is part of what makes us so much like a coin. Two faces, completely opposite separated by an edge that we live in and it seems to go on forever.

Aaaaand not to spoil the atmosphere, but i suspect an address to the op's question is in order. I was reading through and this response was growing and now i can't tell how relevant it is anymore, lol.

I have been called fun and intelligent and old obscure relations and friends mothers have told me that i am/will be a heartbreaker. Maybe they were onto something. because if our only real initial failing is emotional ineptness then diamons in the rough we are. meaning that relationships would start off with an almost unconceited approach, apart from the fear that is.

P.S. don't hesitate to contend anything that doesn't si right with you.

(Psst, don't volunteer for contention...)

I would like to compliment you on your digging through these "old" threads, you mentioned diamonds in the rough and there are several of these threads that fit that description. I would not be the least bit surprised to find that some of them have formed the foundation for more than one paper for school.

If you believe that others see you as a heartbreaker, you need to be careful about reacting in the wrong way to that appraisal. It is rather more important that you do not become one of the broken-hearted.

You might rephrase that last statement flesh out the concept a bit (?)...

 

[Mars]

(Psst, don't volunteer for contention...)

I would like to compliment you on your digging through these "old" threads, you mentioned diamonds in the rough and there are several of these threads that fit that description. I would not be the least bit surprised to find that some of them have formed the foundation for more than one paper for school.

If you believe that others see you as a heartbreaker, you need to be careful about reacting in the wrong way to that appraisal. It is rather more important that you do not become one of the broken-hearted.

You might rephrase that last statement flesh out the concept a bit (?)...

Hokay. to tell you the truth I responded with the first thing that came to mind, not really appropriate in application it would seem. As for a cohesive and broad statement on how others perceive me it would have to be with a little curiosity that eventuates into disgust/acceptance/boredom/something I forgot. So it seems there's hope if curiosity is evident.

Either way, as for considering myself a heart breaker. I would have to admit that I cannot really tell what state mine is in at the moment. However, being a heartbreaker is one of the last things I would use to describe myself more bridges needlessly burned then maintained, or so it would seem to me. Considering that fornicating whimsically is an activity that in all appearances holds more danger for me in the long term than would make it worth my while[Dad lived interstate and reputedly had numerous such rendezvous, so issues there i suppose]. As for the people that call me that, they seem to be women who have been in a destructive relationship, thus a little more experienced in such matters or so I hope.

P.S. Offer of unretaliable contention revoked.