Homosexuality

[Jennywocky]

Yeah, well that's the thing. I did actually talk alot about the friend. Asked alot of questions, and they did genuinely care alot about each other. But I wouldn't have said it any other way, because she WAS being locked up.

Welp, then I just consider it a matter of integrity. If you feel you said what you had to say, in the way you needed to say it, and then she wasn't willing to meet you in the middle...

... then it wasn't going to happen.
She made her bed, now she gets to lie in it.

I got dumped by a friend before, for saying things to her like that.
I was right, too.
She dumped all her friends, she married the guy that had really screwed her up, and she seems far more unhappy, bitter, and judgmental nowadays than she did when we were friends.

Oh well. Life sucks, but it was her choice.

FWIW?? Can't say I know what that means, hehe.

For What It's Worth.

And yeah, probably wont recover. But that's how things goes, I can whine as much as I want. Nothing is ever going to change, too bad.

Pretty much. I let myself grieve, then let myself move on.
There's others out there.

 

[Trebuchet]

Most gays are stupid, silly bitches. There, that is your problem in a nut shell. They want to be glib, needlessly promiscuous, "fashionable" (shudder), and generally commitment phobic, and they are not very skilled at any of those things.

So, the only gay people you know are extraverted and shallow? No wonder you think little of them.

The gay people I know mostly majored in math or science, hold down jobs, and never behave like you describe. Also, most people don't know they are gay, largely because of people like you who get all their stereotypes from TV shows. Yes, there are people like you describe. They don't speak for all gay people.

Homosexuality affects me because some people I care about are gay. It affects me because I live in the US and want equal protection under the law for all our citizens, but we don't have that so we are less than we could be as a country. It affects me because I have a young child, and I don't know her orientation yet, but I don't want her value as a person to drop if she happens to be gay.

I don't think there is an INTP perpective. In the US, at least, it mostly comes down to whether you are right- or left-wing, how educated you are, and your age.'

As for where to find single gay guys who might like an INTP - maybe a role-playing game group? My group has two single gay guys (friends but definitely not right for each other). I haven't been in any other gaming group but some others might be like that.

 

[nexion]

So, the only gay people you know are extraverted and shallow? No wonder you think little of them.

The gay people I know mostly majored in math or science, hold down jobs, and never behave like you describe. Also, most people don't know they are gay, largely because of people like you who get all their stereotypes from TV shows. Yes, there are people like you describe. They don't speak for all gay people.

Homosexuality affects me because some people I care about are gay. It affects me because I live in the US and want equal protection under the law for all our citizens, but we don't have that so we are less than we could be as a country. It affects me because I have a young child, and I don't know her orientation yet, but I don't want her value as a person to drop if she happens to be gay.

I don't think there is an INTP perpective. In the US, at least, it mostly comes down to whether you are right- or left-wing, how educated you are, and your age.'

As for where to find single gay guys who might like an INTP - maybe a role-playing game group? My group has two single gay guys (friends but definitely not right for each other). I haven't been in any other gaming group but some others might be like that.

Dude... I think he's gay too. I mean, the picture he posted is two men, right?

Very clearly, he isn't bashing gay people. lol

 

[nexion]

.

Beautiful sig. What is it from?

 

[ckm]

Dude... I think he's gay too. I mean, the picture he posted is two men, right?

Dude... I don't think Trebuchet is a dude.

 

[nexion]

Dude... I don't think Trebuchet is a dude.

I was talking about Methuselah.

 

[Trebuchet]

I am very relieved no one thought my cat's ears looked like two men. *snicker*

 

[nexion]

I am very relieved no one thought my cat's ears looked like two men. *snicker*

I think it would be about time to get new glasses, or consider myself officially legally blind.

 

[Jennywocky]

Beautiful sig. What is it from?

My sig is from "V for Vendetta," the graphic novel.

Having your eyes opened for the first time to existential freedom is both beautiful and terrifying.

 

[nexion]

My sig is from "V for Vendetta," the graphic novel.

Having your eyes opened for the first time to existential freedom is both beautiful and terrifying.

It is a great metaphor, I think. I tend to think metaphorically.

 

[Lobstrich]

My sig is from "V for Vendetta," the graphic novel.

Having your eyes opened for the first time to existential freedom is both beautiful and terrifying.

I got a signed copy of V for Vendetta

 

[Jennywocky]

I got a signed copy of V for Vendetta

Pure awesomeness. (as along as Alan Moore or David whassisname signed it. )

Moore has done some really good writing over his career.

 

[raccoonlove]

I would like to state that I am a homosexual myself, and hope this does not put any sort of bias. I know this thread is asking for the opinion of NT types, but I could not help and notice the fact that there seems to be a belief that homosexuals are usually flamboyant or shallow. I believe this is only a stereotype, emphasized by society. There are plenty of homosexuals who do not share this shallowness, weather the flamboyant ones are more noticeable is a different story. It's like the introvert versus extrovert case in which many hold the belief that introverts are much rarer when in reality, extroverts are just much more noticeable. I personally seek the same intellectual capabilities in a partner, as well as emotional intimacy and closeness, this is not only restrained to NT types. I believe you have to get out there and make the effort to get to know the person, despite the stereotypes associated with the individual. There are plenty of open and deep homosexuals, you just have to make an effort to find them.

 

[Lobstrich]

Pure awesomeness. (as along as Alan Moore or David whassisname signed it. )

Moore has done some really good writing over his career.

Yeah, Alan Moore wrote it. Dave Gibbons "drew" it..

It's pretty cool actually. One of the signatures is just a name (Alan) Daves sig is a little Guy Fawkes mask sketch

 

[RubberDucky451]

I would like to state that I am a homosexual myself, and hope this does not put any sort of bias. I know this thread is asking for the opinion of NT types, but I could not help and notice the fact that there seems to be a belief that homosexuals are usually flamboyant or shallow. I believe this is only a stereotype, emphasized by society. There are plenty of homosexuals who do not share this shallowness, weather the flamboyant ones are more noticeable is a different story. It's like the introvert versus extrovert case in which many hold the belief that introverts are much rarer when in reality, extroverts are just much more noticeable. I personally seek the same intellectual capabilities in a partner, as well as emotional intimacy and closeness, this is not only restrained to NT types. I believe you have to get out there and make the effort to get to know the person, despite the stereotypes associated with the individual. There are plenty of open and deep homosexuals, you just have to make an effort to find them.

Sexually orientation should have nothing to do with personality type. A homosexual INTP doesn't equal outgoingness. If a group is stereotyped it is usually gleaning information from the loudest and most extroverted members.

 

[Vatroslav]

How homosexuality affects me? In no way. I personally am not a homosexual, but I really think everyone has his right to live his lifestyle until he does not affect others in some direct, deliberate and negative way. It is none of my concern what someone feels towards whom and to what is he sexually interested.

But then again, as an extremely analytical person, I must analyze everything and homosexuality is not any kind of exception, because it occurs in reality, and as a part of reality, it is also a part of my interest. I'm interested in human psyche in general, so sexuality also comes into question. Of course, I'm not going to write about my whole view on human psyche and sexuality, because it would take me a lot of time, I'm just going to make some points...

And after much thinking and debating with others I still cannot get rid of the feeling that... I find the term 'sexual orientation' kind of bizarre.

One of many problems when it comes to sex and sexual theories in these times is that sex is very... overly overrated. Placed on an imaginary pedestal, to which everyone bows today. Not exactly everyone, of course.

Couldn't we at last try to define sex? What is sex at all? (As an activity)

Biologically- it is an exchange of genetic material. No more, nor less.

Another good question is: where is the line between sex and masturbation? A very interesting question, isn't it? What makes something sex, and what makes something masturbation? Those are two very different terms, you'll agree.

In what way is sex with contraception more or less sex then stimulating the genitalia with different objects tried or innovative? What exactly is different, except human subjective perception? There surely is a difference between having sex with another person then with your hand, isn't there? And when and where in science did human subjective perception really had something to do with scientific approach? Never and nowhere.

Is there an exchange of genetic material with your hand or any other object? Is there an exchange of genetic material in sex between women and men with contraception? I think not. (Providing that, of course, everything is right with the contraception.)

I think I don't have to draw the difference between mutual genitalia stimulation, which is completely the same as masturbation (no matter people perceive it differently), and actual genetic material exchange?

I'm sure I'm very clear.

Of course this does not mean that I am against contraception or masturbation or anything I mentioned, to make that sure.

So from this point of view I made here... is there any way to speak about 'sexual orientation'?
What should it be... something that marks ones wish to have a genetic exchange with various genders/objects? Absurd, isn't it?

I don't have actual time to write about any wider analysis of the subject because it is a reaaaaly wide story...

I hope I was understandable enough.

 

[Trebuchet]

...There seems to be a belief that homosexuals are usually flamboyant or shallow. I believe this is only a stereotype, emphasized by society. There are plenty of homosexuals who do not share this shallowness, weather the flamboyant ones are more noticeable is a different story. It's like the introvert versus extrovert case in which many hold the belief that introverts are much rarer when in reality, extroverts are just much more noticeable.

Agreed. Most gay men I have known have been nothing like the stereotypes, but then most of them have been INTx. I did watch a few friends flounder through the realization that they were gay, and in a couple of cases, they tried acting flamboyant for a while because they thought they were supposed to. Eventually they decided there is more than one way to be gay and calmed down. I have one friend who is a genuine extrovert who enjoys being flamboyant, and does it in order to fit into the local gay community. But he isn't shallow, either. His mask hides both pain and extraordinary intelligence. I don't approve of hiding intelligence, but I've done it myself in order to fit in, so I can't throw stones.

(I do also have straight friends, which have not been mentioned before mainly because that isn't the topic of this thread. They, too, sometimes wear "masks," mostly majored in math or science, and hold down jobs.)

I suspect the stereotypes will begin to fade in the next decade or so, because more counterexamples are becoming visible.

I just had a thought: another place one might find worthy people is an LGBT community center. If you're willing to volunteer some time, you will probably end up getting to know all kinds of dedicated people in an environment of shared effort, and they are likely to know other single people, too.

 

[nexion]

Wherever where there is bigotry, there are stereotypes. Until some can learn that their way isn't the only way and that it is fine to be different then there will always be hate.

 

[fullerene]

I always thought that the flamboyancy was their way of recognizing each other. I mean... let's face it, when walking around in the world, such an overhwelming proportion of people are straght (or at least bi) that you can pretty much assume, if you're a guy, that a woman may be interested in you if you get along with each other, and vice versa. That is not a safe assumption for homosexuals. And also, let's face it, pretty much everybody plays games when dating, to try to find out whether the other person is interested in subtle ways, so they don't have to clearly state their intentions & risk getting hurt or w/e. Making up a stereotype or acting especially... colorful, seems like a reasonable way to get across your intentions, send other gay people the message somewhat-subtley, and spare your feelings if it turns out that they're not interested.

 

[bloozie]

@fullerene, For the people who don't present themselves as flamboyant to the world, the problem would be that it would seem unnatural for them. Even though there could be a possibility that I could portray myself in such a way, I would honestly feel uncomfortable. I suppose that what you're talking about, the subtle ways of saying "hey, I'm gay... if you're gay, then lets talk"..... or something like that, could explain a bit. But now I'm wondering... how did the flamboyant "act" even begin? Where did it start... I'm sure that there's a history behind it, but I can't be bothered to search :P..

Thinking about it though and how I don't necessarily portray myself as flamboyant, I honestly have thought about just simply putting a rainbow sticker on myself or possibly getting a tattoo showing that I do have pride in being a homosexual male. Yet, it seems unnecessary? Are ear piercings on the right ear suppose to mean that a guy is gay? Or is that some type of random culture myth thing?

Now I'm wondering why is there a wide spectrum in the way that homosexual men portray themselves toward the world? Would the way we present ourselves, be inherent or does the environment that we grew up in mould us to be this way? I'm not saying that homosexuality exists through environmental stiumuli, but the way we choose to "act" it out toward the world... Perhaps the parents are responsible in cultivating the way the homosexual person interacts with people? ... Okay, I kinda know where I'm getting at here, but I need someone to try to understand what I'm saying here.

 

[Jennywocky]

Yeah, Alan Moore wrote it. Dave Gibbons "drew" it..

I looked it up because I knew this was not right. Gibbons did Watchmen, but not V for Vendetta.

Wiki has the answer:

V for Vendetta is a ten-issue comic-book series written by Alan Moore and illustrated mostly by David Lloyd

I suspect the stereotypes will begin to fade in the next decade or so, because more counterexamples are becoming visible.

That.

It's the case for all the minority groups -- the gays, the transsexuals, the feminists, etc. The first few waves are really smacking up hard against status quo and also against lack of visibility, and only particular types of them become influential or visible.

Once a group starts to integrate into the culture, and the trials to becoming included with that group change as well, and it's also safe for other types of established people to identify with that group... well, you'll start to see a lot more diversity.

The cliches are all built on the pioneers and initial foray, but they start to fade as times change and the group is more included within society.

 

[Trebuchet]

But now I'm wondering... how did the flamboyant "act" even begin? Where did it start... I'm sure that there's a history behind it, but I can't be bothered to search :P..

I am not sure how it started, but I know some people just consider it their personality. I don't understand extroverts who are always putting on a performance, but I don't see any reason to doubt their word.

I honestly have thought about just simply putting a rainbow sticker on myself or possibly getting a tattoo showing that I do have pride in being a homosexual male. Yet, it seems unnecessary? Are ear piercings on the right ear suppose to mean that a guy is gay? Or is that some type of random culture myth thing?

I don't know that it is a myth, but I don't think it applies anymore. And I remember back in HS (in the 1980's), the UK and the US differed on which ear. It sounded dumb to me. If you want jewelry or a tattoo, get some, but don't do any body modification just to please others. A rainbow bumper sticker (or bicycle sticker, as the case may be) is at least removable and the message is clear, if you want a way to show gay pride.

Oh, if only we had Lois McMaster Bujold's Beta Colony system, with earrings to show orientation and availability!

Now I'm wondering why is there a wide spectrum in the way that homosexual men portray themselves toward the world? Would the way we present ourselves, be inherent or does the environment that we grew up in mould us to be this way? I'm not saying that homosexuality exists through environmental stiumuli, but the way we choose to "act" it out toward the world... Perhaps the parents are responsible in cultivating the way the homosexual person interacts with people? ... Okay, I kinda know where I'm getting at here, but I need someone to try to understand what I'm saying here.

I'll try to understand. You can see if I am even close.

Why shouldn't there be a wide spectrum in the way homosexual men present themselves? There is a wide spectrum of homosexual men. It would be downright odd if they were all the same.

Everyone, gay or straight, has to decide how to portray themselves to society, and the culture around us matters a lot. Like I mentioned earlier, I've pretended to be dumber than I am, because females in my culture aren't supposed to be smart and logical and interested in technical subjects. For a time, I accepted the cultural stereotype and tried to conform. (I don't think being an INTP woman is the same as being a gay man, but this is a limited analogy.)

I think your outward persona is highly influenced by culture. The way you follow cultural expectations, or not, becomes part of how you identify yourself. I'm American. My body language, spending habits, and how I speak all reflect that, even though I don't match every American stereotype. My identity includes being American, but I expect if I were born in Germany I would behave more like a German, while still being me.

If you grow up believing gay people have a particular body language, set of spending habits, and way of speaking, and identify yourself as gay, it would affect how you present yourself, whether you conform to those ideas or not.

I am sure parents are important in this. My parents raised me to think of all sexual orientations as equal. As long as someone has a sexual orientation, whatever it is, then I think of them as being similar to myself. If my parents had raised me to think it was a sin, I might or might not agree with them, but in any case I'd probably think of homosexuality as being very different from myself.

 

[Cavallier]

I suppose that what you're talking about, the subtle ways of saying "hey, I'm gay... if you're gay, then lets talk"..... or something like that, could explain a bit.

It is all so complicated and with prejudice also dangerous. If only everybody learned to accept two people loving each other regardless of gender and orientation.

...Somebody mentioned getting a tattoo or wearing a pride ribbon of some sort to indicate their orientation. I've been plastering my stuff with gay pride ribbons and rainbows for years. No wonder I get hit on by lesbians while I'm out with my backpack. I hadn't thought about that stuff indicating sexual orientation so much as support for the community. Huh.

 

[fullerene]

@fullerene, For the people who don't present themselves as flamboyant to the world, the problem would be that it would seem unnatural for them. Even though there could be a possibility that I could portray myself in such a way, I would honestly feel uncomfortable. I suppose that what you're talking about, the subtle ways of saying "hey, I'm gay... if you're gay, then lets talk"..... or something like that, could explain a bit. But now I'm wondering... how did the flamboyant "act" even begin? Where did it start... I'm sure that there's a history behind it, but I can't be bothered to search :P..

Thinking about it though and how I don't necessarily portray myself as flamboyant, I honestly have thought about just simply putting a rainbow sticker on myself or possibly getting a tattoo showing that I do have pride in being a homosexual male. Yet, it seems unnecessary? Are ear piercings on the right ear suppose to mean that a guy is gay? Or is that some type of random culture myth thing?

Now I'm wondering why is there a wide spectrum in the way that homosexual men portray themselves toward the world? Would the way we present ourselves, be inherent or does the environment that we grew up in mould us to be this way? I'm not saying that homosexuality exists through environmental stiumuli, but the way we choose to "act" it out toward the world... Perhaps the parents are responsible in cultivating the way the homosexual person interacts with people? ... Okay, I kinda know where I'm getting at here, but I need someone to try to understand what I'm saying here.

Yeah... I think I know what you're saying. I have no idea how such a diverse way of interacting people sprung up... but I think your questions about how homosexual people interact in such a wide variety of ways probably goes for everyone else as well. Simply due to the psychological effects, I would not recommend something like wearing a rainbow around. Even little things like that have lots of psychological repercussions... which is why that whole "separate, but equal" racial thing was deemed unfair. It "marks" the sets of people as different, and (in theory) prevents real equality.

I'm not sure about the ear rings..... the last time I heard that was in 4th grade, lol. I also have no idea how the whole flamboyant act began, but I'm also kind of curious. I do have one friend who might know (he's a psychology fan and tends to look up a lot of random things like that, when he thinks of them), so I'll see if he's come across anything, next time we talk.

 

[IzlaRoza]

I don't agree with homosexuality, but I am definitely not a homophobic person. I have gay and bi friends. I feel that people, regardless of their sexual orientation, should be treated as people. Im for gay rights and anti gay hatred. However, there are many problems that come with homosexuality. For example, if everyone in the world decided that they wanted to live as a gay or a lesbian, then no one would be making children. The generation that decided to go gay would be the very last generation of people ever.

Here's something interesting that i feel that not other people really see my way: I believe that it makes more sense for a male to be a homosexual than it does for a female. Men have the ability to poke and get poked. Women have to go buy those tools.

Also, I think homosexuality is just a phase. Over time, people decide to go back to the other side.

That's just from the way I see it, I hope i didn't offend anyone.
And by the way Im looking for a new gay (male) best friend!

 

[IndigoSensor]

Also, I think homosexuality is just a phase. Over time, people decide to go back to the other side.

I will never agree with this statement, ever. I was born gay, and I always have been gay. I always will be gay. Not once have I been sexually attracted to women. I have tried to be attracted to women, never have been.

Sexual attraction is inate, you can't control and force yourself to be attracted to what you are. You can pretend and deny and slightly shift, but not outright change.

That being said, I have enocountered people whom I do not believe they are actually gay or bi as they claim, and that they are just going through a "phase" of sorts (but I don't like using that word), but that's cause they just aren't good at self inflection.

 

[bloozie]

I don't agree with homosexuality, but I am definitely not a homophobic person. I have gay and bi friends. I feel that people, regardless of their sexual orientation, should be treated as people. Im for gay rights and anti gay hatred. However, there are many problems that come with homosexuality. For example, if everyone in the world decided that they wanted to live as a gay or a lesbian, then no one would be making children. The generation that decided to go gay would be the very last generation of people ever.

Here's something interesting that i feel that not other people really see my way: I believe that it makes more sense for a male to be a homosexual than it does for a female. Men have the ability to poke and get poked. Women have to go buy those tools.

Also, I think homosexuality is just a phase. Over time, people decide to go back to the other side.

That's just from the way I see it, I hope i didn't offend anyone.
And by the way Im looking for a new gay (male) best friend!

Your example about how everyone in the world just manages to "turn" gay is totally unfounded and possibly a fear that you need to get rid of. Honestly, how can the whole world just turn that switch on and be gay?! Unless there's this alien being that zaps all of us into thinking that we are... then that in itself would be amazing. But still, your basis about homosexuality and thinking that it would stop the world from procreating is really unnecessary.

And then the thing about men poking each other and women needing to buy tools for that such thing??! Not everything is about sex. Not to me. Homosexuality to me is about finding that "soulmate" ... finding someone that you could share yourself with...essentially, it's about Love. I guess you're basing this on stereotypes about how homosexuals are in a relationship just for the sex and nothing else.

And what the FRAK are you talking about homosexuality being a "phase"?! Where do you get this idea that homosexuals are in some sort of "phase" in their lives!?! Perhaps heterosexuals are in some sort of "phase" as well?! Maybe heterosexuals are really homosexuals to begin with and vice-versa?! Totally illogical. I really disagree with the way you see homosexuality, IzlaRoza.

 

[IzlaRoza]

Your example about how everyone in the world just manages to "turn" gay is totally unfounded and possibly a fear that you need to get rid of. Honestly, how can the whole world just turn that switch on and be gay?! Unless there's this alien being that zaps all of us into thinking that we are... then that in itself would be amazing. But still, your basis about homosexuality and thinking that it would stop the world from procreating is really unnecessary.

And then the thing about men poking each other and women needing to buy tools for that such thing??! Not everything is about sex. Not to me. Homosexuality to me is about finding that "soulmate" ... finding someone that you could share yourself with...essentially, it's about Love. I guess you're basing this on stereotypes about how homosexuals are in a relationship just for the sex and nothing else.

And what the FRAK are you talking about homosexuality being a "phase"?! Where do you get this idea that homosexuals are in some sort of "phase" in their lives!?! Perhaps heterosexuals are in some sort of "phase" as well?! Maybe heterosexuals are really homosexuals to being with and vice-versa?! Totally illogical. I really disagree with the way you see homosexuality, IzlaRoza.

Ok i guess i didnt make myself clear enough on some points. when i said if everyone decided they were gay, it was a hypothetical situation, just so that you could understand that homosexuality and depopulation correlate.

Sex may not be the only thing on your mind, and i guess that would make you one of those people that my "phase" theory wouldnt apply to. But alot of the gays that i know base their relationship around sex. All they talk about is how the sex is great and how they prefer the genitals they have over the genitals of the other sex. (now, thats just what i see. All of my thoughts and beliefs are just a product of my surroundings)

And when i said its a "phase" i didnt mean for everyone. Yes there are some people who claim to be born gay and always looked at members of their own gender. But i mean homosexuality as it is today. (especially among the youth) I know many people who claimed to be 100% gay and would never date a member of the other sex and two years later, i find them involved in heterosexual relationships.

I didnt mean to offend anyone. But if you disagree with me thats ok, i disagree with you too.

 

[Trebuchet]

I don't agree with homosexuality, but I am definitely not a homophobic person. I have gay and bi friends. I feel that people, regardless of their sexual orientation, should be treated as people. Im for gay rights and anti gay hatred.

What does it mean that you "don't agree" with homosexuality? You mean like spicy food doesn't agree with some people, or like you don't agree with an argument? Because saying that is like saying "I don't agree with red hair." It makes no sense at all. Maybe you mean "I disapprove."

However, there are many problems that come with homosexuality. For example, if everyone in the world decided that they wanted to live as a gay or a lesbian, then no one would be making children. The generation that decided to go gay would be the very last generation of people ever.

1. People don't decide to be gay or lesbian.

2. Everyone isn't gay or lesbian, and while a hypothetical world of all homosexuals would not work, we don't live in such a world, and we won't. It isn't even a good example, because it is silly and impossible. The world wouldn't work if everyone in it were INTP, either, but we don't have to worry about it happening, and we don't have to get rid of INTPs because of that.

3. There are other ways of making children, and people are more adaptable than you seem to think.

Here's something interesting that i feel that not other people really see my way: I believe that it makes more sense for a male to be a homosexual than it does for a female. Men have the ability to poke and get poked. Women have to go buy those tools.

Wow. There's a lot about sex that you don't know, and a lot about relationships that you also don't know.

Also, I think homosexuality is just a phase. Over time, people decide to go back to the other side.

This has been soundly disproven, so why do you choose to hold this incorrect opinion?

That's just from the way I see it, I hope i didn't offend anyone.
And by the way Im looking for a new gay (male) best friend!

Why did you think that you wouldn't offend anyone, posting something like this? And why would you choose your best friend on the basis of gender and sexual orientation, rather than someone you like being around? That is one of the strangest statements I've come across on this forum.

 

[Fallenman]

There's a lot of life ahead.
I remember my teen years (and college too, but not as bad) feeling sort of like a wasteland.
It's hard being an abstract thinker at that age, because many of our peers will not yet have developed that part of themselves, so we're still sort of alone and misunderstood.

It does get better, the older you get; the issue more is a declining pool of options and uncertainty over where to meet someone. However, there are more people available who are compatible because by that point everyone is becoming more well-rounded and getting a sense of themselves and what matters to them.

Jenny I do believe you have become one of my favorites =]. I enjoy a lot of topics from quantum physics to musical masterpieces but my most favorite subject is life. It is the absolutely most fascinating subject in the world to me and whenever I learn something about life, I always leave feeling more content with life in general than before.

Your above statement rings true with me, more so because of the fact that I'm a philosophy major. I'm not bitter and i dont hold resentment, i just realize that i prefer abstract thought a great deal than almost everyone I meet, except for those who are more philosophically inclined. You should see the looks I get from people when I tell them my major. It is almost a conversation stopper, at least in my experience. Even from people who are very intellectually capable, or at least who have good study ethics lol. But I accept it as the reality I live in. Some people really just dont give a rats ass about whether or not we really have freedom of will, or what our will is based upon. But I do appreciate the fact that it could simply be that most people our age are not in a position to be asking deeper questions than where tonights party is going to be. But it is nice to think that its only a phase.

It's not only that this search for this magical person who you will connect with on a deep intellectual level makes me want to puke, the problem is that you are missing so many wonderful, just not totally perfect people while waiting for "the one"

I guess i'm just obsessed with digging up the past, but I feel like the most important lesson can be learned here. When you're younger you're more idealistic. In general. We have our whole lives ahead of us and nothing but time, and we're willing to waste a few years waiting for that special someone because, hell, we've got nothing but time. In reality, we have to realize that you're probably never going to get 10 for 10, more accurately you're gunna get 6/10 or 7/10 and occasionally 8/10 or 9/10. We have to learn to accept that we're only going to get a portion of what we want, and we're going to have to pick our battles. Me for example, I enjoy the company of intellectuals a great deal than most other people, BUT I realize that I prefer people who are genuinely good. At the end of the day i'm going to enjoy the company of a nice average person over the pretentious intellectual prick.

But that doesn't matter. For people who have never been in a relationship, I don't think we're in a position to be judgmental when we have no way of even knowing what we want out of a relationship yet. You can speculate, but you're never going to know which qualities you can learn to accept and which you just can't stand. Books can teach us plenty, but the best teacher is experience.

 

[Fallenman]

oh, an addendum that i kind of forgot to put in. I've found that older people realize that they don't have the time to just run around looking for that special someone, they learn compromise, and to spend their time more wisely. Where younger people are obsessed with thoughts of grandeur, soul mates, true love and all that stuff thats going to end up wasting a lot of your time chasing after wisps that few people are ever lucky enough to experience. I don't think that true love and the like are impossible, just unrealistic.

 

[₲uardian]

I am straight, but in many ways feminine. I am not offended by homosexuals, and I even invite their interest in me (I'll take attention wherever I can get it XD)

I'm just an open person in general.

 

[nexion]

I love the unique lettering your name uses. If I had the choice, I would turn this blasted gay name into the Greek name I use on some other forums.

 

[₲uardian]

I love the unique lettering your name uses.

Thanx ^_^

 

[Minuend]

For example, if everyone in the world decided that they wanted to live as a gay or a lesbian, then no one would be making children. The generation that decided to go gay would be the very last generation of people ever.

Not that it's likely or anything, but why would the extinction of humans be a bad thing?

Also, ladies, you don't know what you're missin' out on!

 

[SpaceYeti]

I would like to know how homosexuality affects you? Or not? Specifically, what's the NT perspective on the topic? It could range from Politics to Relationships, so forth.

Also, If there are any members in here that identify as homosexual... I honestly need your help...
Here's my rant: For the past year or so, I have been contemplating reasons as to why I haven't been in a relationship with a guy, ever. I identify as being homosexual, but I just can't seem to ever find a guy that I can connect with on a more intellectual level and who identifies as being homosexual. I know a few guys that I can talk to with whom I am able to stimulate my mind with, but they are heterosexual. Also, what I find to be odd is that I don't personally (face-to-face) know any homosexual guys aside from the ones that I talk to online. And the type of relationship that I'm looking for is more of an Intellectual type rather than a Sexual type. What I'm getting at here is that I want to know if this is considered "normal" for NT types or perhaps INT's? And how do/would you break away from "normalcy"?

(This topic has probably been rehashed during previous threads, but I wasn't satisfied with the search results that I received so I decided to make one to discuss certain aspects of Homosexuality and the perspectives that the users in this forum have about it.)

I think it's a simple problem of not finding any potential mates with a similar enough mindset. Us NTs are pretty rare. Finding someone we can get along with intellectually is difficult. If you're gay, the odds of finding one who's also gay reduces your chances even more!

 

[archimonde]

Assuming that 1 in 20 is homosexual, and that INTP's account for 3% (upper range) of the population, that would mean a gay INTP would be 0.0015% of the world's population...

Whole bunch of sites suggest ENTJs and ESTJs make good INTP partners because of their leadership and emotional support.
A gay ENTJ would be 0.0025% and a gay ESTJ would be 0.006%.

But then, of those percentages, half of them are gay and the other half are lesbians, so now you have to divide the values by half for each of them.

So basically, the chance that either two combination would meet is astronomical.
But it would be much better odd than a gay INTP searching for another gay INTP...

 

[Hammett]

For example, if everyone in the world decided that they wanted to live as a gay or a lesbian, then no one would be making children. The generation that decided to go gay would be the very last generation of people ever.

Biology states that to create a baby there needs to be a man and a women, no where does it say they have to be heterosexual.

Gay men and women are perfectly capable of reproducing. They can cringe and bare it through old fashion means, they can use a turkey baster, or they can use IVF.

Men have the ability to poke and get poked. Women have to go buy those tools.

I kinda pity your current/future girlfriends if you believe that sex for a women must require penetration. Most women do not orgasm that way. Google it.

Also, I think homosexuality is just a phase. Over time, people decide to go back to the other side.

You're not on your own with that view, Fundamentalist Christian groups agree! "If you try hard enough you can overcome"... They're wrong

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Disposition + life experience = personality.

Ultimately, what people go through in life determines their preferences, so one cannot criticize them for being a certain way. Personally, I have no problem with it. Homosexuals identify as such not because it was a matter of right and wrong, but because it was comfortable to them. To go even further, I would say it would be better if we did not pigeonhole people into two types because an emotionally expressive male should not have to be labeled gay and a sexually and emotionally vague woman should not have to be labeled butch/lesbian.

Politically, I think gender preference has no place in the government and should be disregarded in all aspects of it. People are still people when you get down to it and should be treated as such.

 

[Jennywocky]

Agreed. Most gay men I have known have been nothing like the stereotypes, but then most of them have been INTx.

Wow. Out of all the gay people I know, I don't think I know any INTx ones. I do know an INFP one, but the bulk seem to be other types.

You're not on your own with that view, Fundamentalist Christian groups agree! "If you try hard enough you can overcome"... They're wrong

yup They are wrong, based on all the studies of the reparative therapy movement.

At best, someone might be able to "cope without dying."
Even the ex-gay label is still a gay one in how it frames itself.
Usually there is a religious component ("I am not allowed to be gay") that is driving the attempt to "stop committing homosexual acts."

I think there are people (especially in Gen Y and upcoming generations) who will experiment -- society allows that now -- but once they figure out their preference and what works for them, they'll gravitate toward what that is. I think the stark preference binary in Boomers and older generations forced gays to develop het LTRs regardless of their feelings, and if they felt strongly enough to overtly enter a gay relationship, it was not an "exploration," it was a strongly held conviction and preference. Those who might have just experimented didn't have that option and just stayed straight. But today's culture is very different and has that inherent flexibility to explore so preference no longer appears so clear-cut.

 

[jachian]

I would like to know how homosexuality affects you? Or not? Specifically, what's the NT perspective on the topic? It could range from Politics to Relationships, so forth.

Also, If there are any members in here that identify as homosexual... I honestly need your help...
Here's my rant: For the past year or so, I have been contemplating reasons as to why I haven't been in a relationship with a guy, ever. I identify as being homosexual, but I just can't seem to ever find a guy that I can connect with on a more intellectual level and who identifies as being homosexual. I know a few guys that I can talk to with whom I am able to stimulate my mind with, but they are heterosexual. Also, what I find to be odd is that I don't personally (face-to-face) know any homosexual guys aside from the ones that I talk to online. And the type of relationship that I'm looking for is more of an Intellectual type rather than a Sexual type. What I'm getting at here is that I want to know if this is considered "normal" for NT types or perhaps INT's? And how do/would you break away from "normalcy"?

(This topic has probably been rehashed during previous threads, but I wasn't satisfied with the search results that I received so I decided to make one to discuss certain aspects of Homosexuality and the perspectives that the users in this forum have about it.)

Hey...... your decision.. do what you like....

As for me...... the thought of homosexuality makes my skin crawl......

As for your rant..... I dont see why you have to make it seem so complicated........ Its really simple.......

Finding someone to be sexually attractive is not sufficient for compatibility.
Lust and Love are not the same.

 

[jachian]

Your example about how everyone in the world just manages to "turn" gay is totally unfounded and possibly a fear that you need to get rid of. Honestly, how can the whole world just turn that switch on and be gay?! Unless there's this alien being that zaps all of us into thinking that we are... then that in itself would be amazing. But still, your basis about homosexuality and thinking that it would stop the world from procreating is really unnecessary.

And then the thing about men poking each other and women needing to buy tools for that such thing??! Not everything is about sex. Not to me. Homosexuality to me is about finding that "soulmate" ... finding someone that you could share yourself with...essentially, it's about Love. I guess you're basing this on stereotypes about how homosexuals are in a relationship just for the sex and nothing else.

And what the FRAK are you talking about homosexuality being a "phase"?! Where do you get this idea that homosexuals are in some sort of "phase" in their lives!?! Perhaps heterosexuals are in some sort of "phase" as well?! Maybe heterosexuals are really homosexuals to begin with and vice-versa?! Totally illogical. I really disagree with the way you see homosexuality, IzlaRoza.

I'm really confused now........

Could someone please define the terms "Homosexual" and "Homosexuality" ?........
Please I need clarity !!...........

 

[Jennywocky]

As for me...... the thought of homosexuality makes my skin crawl......

Which is fine. You aren't required to be a practicing homosexual.

I think what hets fail to get is that someone who identifies as homosexual is as repulsed and unfulfilled by having to be in a het relationship as much as a het person would feel repulsed and unfulfilled being forced to be in a homosexual relationship.

I also doubt there is anything you can imagine -- any form of drug or therapy -- that would allow you to no longer identify as het and suddenly only want to be in same-sex relationships. In fact, the very concept probably seems insane to you, depending on how strong your het tendencies are. Like it or not, you probably strongly feel that you have the best chance for fulfillment and self-maturation within a het relationship.

Does that allow you to understand the situation better?

Ps. No, I'm not gay.

 

[ckm]

I'm really confused now........

Could someone please define the terms "Homosexual" and "Homosexuality" ?........
Please I need clarity !!...........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality:

Homosexuality is romantic or sexual attraction or behavior among members of the same sex/gender. As a sexual orientation, homosexuality refers to "an enduring pattern of or disposition to experience sexual, affectional, or romantic attractions primarily to" people of the same sex; "it also refers to an individual’s sense of personal and social identity based on those attractions, behaviors expressing them, and membership in a community of others who share them."

A homosexual is someone who suffers from this condition. I'm not being serious.

As for me...... the thought of homosexuality makes my skin crawl......

Now, considering the above definition, does the thought of homosexuality still make your skin crawl? Basically, I'm asking which of these you meant:

• the thought of the concept of homosexuality, i.e. any given person who is romantically or sexually attracted to members of the same sex, or;
• the thought of a sexual act between two members of the same sex.

The two are not synonymous.

 

[Trebuchet]

Wow. Out of all the gay people I know, I don't think I know any INTx ones. I do know an INFP one, but the bulk seem to be other types.

Yeah, well, that's statistics for you. The bulk of everyone seem to be other types, so clearly it is my sample is skewed. Most of my straight friends are also INTx. My point, though, is that there are some gay INTx people out there.

Change of topic:

Here's a question to everyone who thinks sexual orientation is a choice. Why on earth would a young adolescent, at an age when people most crave acceptance, choose to be gay? Lots of them get rejected by their parents (sometimes even kicked out of the house), rejected by their friends (sometimes even subject to violence), and even in an accepting environment, they get to feel like outsiders who are different from everyone else. As others have pointed out, their chances of finding a compatible mate drop, the outlook for being treated as equals before the law is poor, and they have to contend with ignorant stereotypes and people trying to tell them what they are or are not.

I've met and talked to many people who desperately wanted not to be gay. Why would you not take their word for it? Why would they lie?

Now, not everyone who is gay has a bad experience, or wishes they were straight, and I'm certainly not trying to draw a universal conclusion here. But for those who did have a bad experience, why wouldn't they have made the choice the other way if they could?

 

[nexion]

I can't answer your question in a dissenting way, Trebuchet, because I don't disagree. I just wanted to state that it is for a number of reasons, such as biological reasons, environmental reasons, and situational reasons, that a person would become homosexual. If you change the environment to one that did not support homosexuality than that person has less of a chance to become homosexual. This, of course, does not imply that homosexuality is a choice.

But I still find it incredibly absurd that a baby can be born homosexual, and, as such, neither is a baby born heterosexual. One can be born with a predisposition to be hetero- or homosexual, but sexuality is not something that is fully developed or realized at birth.

 

[ckm]

I just wanted to state that it is for a number of reasons, such as biological reasons, environmental reasons, and situational reasons, that a person would become homosexual. If you change the environment to one that did not support homosexuality than that person has less of a chance to become homosexual.

How do you know this?

Also, what do you mean by "become homosexual"?

 

[nexion]

How do you know this?

Also, what do you mean by "become homosexual"?

It has been scientifically documented, through both biology and psychology. Nature and nurture both have a role in determining whether one becomes homosexual. The exact debate is how much each one plays a role.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080617151845.htm
http://allpsych.com/journal/homosexuality.html

There's no clear-cut theory to this or anything explaining whether babies can literally be BORN gay, but it is certain that it is a mix of biological and environmental factors. Why would a man raised in a homosexual home NOT be more likely to be homosexual, and why would someone raised in a Christian home who view homosexuality as a sin NOT be heterosexual. Of course, it still does sometimes happen, and that discrepancy can be related to the biological factors of some people being born with more of a predisposition to become homosexual later in life than other.

As to why I say "become homosexual," refer to the second paragraph of my first post- "sexuality is not something that is fully developed or realized at birth."

 

[Trebuchet]

But I still find it incredibly absurd that a baby can be born homosexual, and, as such, neither is a baby born heterosexual. One can be born with a predisposition to be hetero- or homosexual, but sexuality is not something that is fully developed or realized at birth.

Why is it absurd? To be sure, it is icky to think of sex and babies in the same sentence, but that isn't proof that babies have no sexual identity at all. Clearly, sexuality is not fully developed at birth, or there wouldn't be puberty. That doesn't mean it hasn't started to develop at birth, along with the rest of the brain and body.

Do you think it is absurd someone could be INTP, or left-handed, at birth? Or are those choices? You can't test a baby for those traits, they certainly don't manifest at birth, and I would argue that society has shown disapproval for both over the years. (I am not trying to create an equivalence with being gay, just a limited analogy.)

 

[nexion]

Why is it absurd? To be sure, it is icky to think of sex and babies in the same sentence, but that isn't proof that babies have no sexual identity at all. Clearly, sexuality is not fully developed at birth, or there wouldn't be puberty. That doesn't mean it hasn't started to develop at birth, along with the rest of the brain and body.

Do you think it is absurd someone could be INTP, or left-handed, at birth? Or are those choices? You can't test a baby for those traits, they certainly don't manifest at birth, and I would argue that society has shown disapproval for both over the years. (I am not trying to create an equivalence with being gay, just a limited analogy.)

I was, is, and always will be saying that being homosexual isn't a choice. But it is still a result of saying that. You JUST said that you agree that sexuality can't be fully developed at birth. I assumed context was clear enough to represent in my post that I also was saying sexuality can't be FULLY realized at birth, not saying it wasn't developed at all. But even if someone is born with a predisposition to be homosexual, it by no means follows that the baby is going to be homosexual. So babies aren't literally BORN gay.