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Greatest orator ever?

Sparrow

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Wish

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Those titles are meaningless. In saying "Counselor" it is assumed that the INFJ uses hir Fe for 'good' or to further their Ni which aims to better man kind (as others see it). In this case, Adolf most likely believed he was doing something better for mankind by trying to establish a perfect race. A great example of what can happen when you leave an INFJ's Ni unchecked and the Fe has already started winning people over.
 

flow

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I'd say he's an INTJ, but we'll have to ask Adymus. Also, Martin Luther King Jr. was easily on Adolf Hitler's public speaking level, and much less evil.
 

BigApplePi

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I'd say he's an INTJ, but we'll have to ask Adymus. Also, Martin Luther King Jr. was easily on Adolf Hitler's public speaking level, and much less evil.

Yes we'd have to consult with Adymus. We are looking at personality types so I'm not ready to judge good from evil. Evil people have to be placed in some category. I looked up INTJ and it says "Ni, Te" whereas INFJ is says, "Ni Fe." It's a little confusing. Adymus?
 

Wish

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So the difference is whether Adolf implements his Ni (worldview) through Te or Fe. Te allows a person to determine a logical and systematic approach and to then apply it. In speech it manifests as someone clearly categorizing and explaining the different aspects of a problem or idea in a way that demonstrates its applicability. To put it another way, an INTJ would explain their Ni model for the sake of the model because they believe the best means to their end is to clearly and accurately portray the idea. On the other hand, Fe comes from a desire to relate to people and have them relate to you. When discussing their Ni model, an INFJ believes the beast means to their end is to relate the model to people by playing to their fears, strengths, aspirations, etc. An INFJ with a strong Fe can even make others feel as they do on certain matters through this expression.

Also, any type can be 'evil' or 'good' depending on what one defines as being such.
 

flow

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Oops, sorry I didn't mean to throw 'evil' into this discussion. I guess I just kind of assumed that anyone who is practicing genocidal ideas and invading sovereign nations in the name of their own superior race is probably evil. I'm sure he was cool to some people, though.
 

BigApplePi

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So the difference is whether Adolf implements his Ni (worldview) through Te or Fe. Te allows a person to determine a logical and systematic approach and to then apply it. In speech it manifests as someone clearly categorizing and explaining the different aspects of a problem or idea in a way that demonstrates its applicability. To put it another way, an INTJ would explain their Ni model for the sake of the model because they believe the best means to their end is to clearly and accurately portray the idea. On the other hand, Fe comes from a desire to relate to people and have them relate to you. When discussing their Ni model, an INFJ believes the beast means to their end is to relate the model to people by playing to their fears, strengths, aspirations, etc. An INFJ with a strong Fe can even make others feel as they do on certain matters through this expression.

Also, any type can be 'evil' or 'good' depending on what one defines as being such.

Not sure if you are favoring INFJ Wishing Well.

Here is MLK. I picked the shortest version I could find. He doesn't have Hitler's hand motion but listen to the intonations. xNFP?

YouTube- Martin Luther King Jr - I Have a Dream
 

flow

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MLK is usually typed as an INFJ.
 

Wish

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I don't think I'm favoring INFJ, just trying to explain the functions. In any case, it is safe to say that people that are able to easily and effectively relate to others, or have others relate to them (as the case may be), are typically using Fe.
 

Adymus

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Okay you know how Adolf Hitler's goal was to advance man-kind? That alone should be a dead give away of INFJ. The focus of his worldview was always on people, creating a master race, a master society.
(Also the reason so many transhumanists are INFJs)

Also, yes he speaks with Fe. His passion, his poetic articulation, Te does care about sounding passionate or graceful, it only cares about sounding competent and laying out what needs to be done.

Te backed up with Fi sometimes sounds pretty passionate but it is still a completely different feel than Fe. It will be more like "This is what needs to be done and I will fight you on this if you disagree!"
 

Adymus

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Who wrote the speeches?
If he is an INFJ then he wouldn't let anyone but him write his speeches.

It is his vision and nobody else's, and only he can truly express it in such a way that would seed these ideas in person's brain in the way that he is looking for.

INFJs speak a language that is meant to make you see things, make you think about things, make you feel things, it is all planned out and the INFJ wouldn't trust anyone else to sway people like they can.

If you would like an example of this language, read everything Lyra has ever written, and take note of how he refuses to re-word it when people people ask him to.
 

BigApplePi

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If he is an INFJ then he wouldn't let anyone but him write his speeches.

It is his vision and nobody else's, and only he can truly express it in such a way that would seed these ideas in person's brain in the way that he is looking for.

INFJs speak a language that is meant to make you see things, make you think about things, make you feel things, it is all planned out and the INFJ wouldn't trust anyone else to sway people like they can.

If you would like an example of this language, read everything Lyra has ever written, and take note of how he refuses to re-word it when people people ask him to.

Your INFJ comments appreciated.

I recognize what you said about Lyra. She is very forceful and is self-orientated. But I read her as female. Can you support the male aspect? Few women would be so aggressive I admit.
 

Jordan~

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The greatest orator ever did not speak in German, because German is a language which supports crude rhetoric. Hitler's aggressive, histrionic style appears ridiculous to the point of hilarity to the English speaker. Were an English-speaking orator to attempt the same high-charged rhetoric, he would be laughed off the podium. Germans can sound passionate and full of righteous rage when ordering a coffee.

The greatest orator certainly spoke the language with the largest vocabulary, the most flexible grammar and the most versatile word construction: English. Nor did the greatest orator practice an art as unrefined as rhetoric. The greatest orator was not an orator at all: the greatest orator was a poet. Perhaps TS Eliot?
 

Hawkeye

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Hitler did use the power of 'music' to his advantage though.

Just before he appeared before an audience to speak, a loud 10Hz frequency was blasted out into the crowd. This frequency range makes one feel uneasy. When Hitler stepped out the 'sound' (it's below the audible range) was immediately cut off giving a feeling of ellation to the crowd. Many in the crowd related this feeling to the appearance of Hitler.

A very clever technique.
 

Adymus

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Hawkeye, that is sooooooo INFJ!

Since Se is their inferior function, then they know just how easy it is to use it to shock people into giving your their attention. This is something that INFJs might even use in mid sentence by out of no where making some loud of or theatrics gesture to snap you back into giving them your full attention.

To quote one of my INFJ friends "As soon as your audience becomes comfortable, you start to lose them.
 

Lithorn

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The greatest orator ever did not speak in German, because German is a language which supports crude rhetoric. Hitler's aggressive, histrionic style appears ridiculous to the point of hilarity to the English speaker. Were an English-speaking orator to attempt the same high-charged rhetoric, he would be laughed off the podium. Germans can sound passionate and full of righteous rage when ordering a coffee.

The greatest orator certainly spoke the language with the largest vocabulary, the most flexible grammar and the most versatile word construction: English. Nor did the greatest orator practice an art as unrefined as rhetoric. The greatest orator was not an orator at all: the greatest orator was a poet. Perhaps TS Eliot?


I don't quite understand your assertion that the greatest orator was not an orator. The term itself encompasses more than just the use of language. If "greatest utilizer of language" were the topic of debate, it would be a different story. Oration however implies presentation, emotion, understanding of one's audience, and charisma.
Also, I'm not sure whether the quality of the language (if indeed languages can be assessed in that manner) really factors into the quality of the orator. Hitler's native language was German. The people he was addressing were German. Therefore we must judge him in that context. Besides, by your logic one could be labeled "world's greatest orator" based not on their actual ability but on where they happened to be born and where they're practicing their oration.
 

Adymus

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The greatest orator ever did not speak in German, because German is a language which supports crude rhetoric. Hitler's aggressive, histrionic style appears ridiculous to the point of hilarity to the English speaker. Were an English-speaking orator to attempt the same high-charged rhetoric, he would be laughed off the podium. Germans can sound passionate and full of righteous rage when ordering a coffee.

The greatest orator certainly spoke the language with the largest vocabulary, the most flexible grammar and the most versatile word construction: English. Nor did the greatest orator practice an art as unrefined as rhetoric. The greatest orator was not an orator at all: the greatest orator was a poet. Perhaps TS Eliot?
Are you at all familiar with the word Ethnocentrism?
 

Adymus

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Your INFJ comments appreciated.

I recognize what you said about Lyra. She is very forceful and is self-orientated. But I read her as female. Can you support the male aspect? Few women would be so aggressive I admit.
The fact that Lyra has made a point to appear female makes me doubt that He/she is.... But I really don't know, gender isn't relevant to what were are discussing anyway.

The aggressiveness of a female depends on their type more than it does their gender (Ie: ENTJ chicks.)
 

Lyra

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Nietzsche and Goethe wrote in German...

does anything more need to be said?
 

BigApplePi

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The wildest provocations draw to oneself until one is finally ostracized.
 

Anthile

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I really doubt the merit of this thread, considering that nobody here seems to know German history and culture beyond History Channel. Hitler was not an evil genius or, well, any kind of genius. In fact, the only thing he was really good at was manipulating people. He was a romanticist and he really believed in what he said. He was a horrible politician and behind the facade of conservative order was a ramshackle government and a ruined economy. Hitler was a painter and not an architect. However, there is actually only one thing I want to add: Hitler's role as it is perceived in the USA and thus through (pop-)cultural osmosis everywhere else in the world makes him way more important and competent than he really was due to America's heavy emphasis on personality cultism. The second world war was almost inevitable because of the Treaty of Versailles.

Compare: Barack Obama. He's a painter too.

@Lyra: And your point is...?
 

Agent Intellect

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Barack Obama is a good orator - he successfully convinced a sufficient majority of an entire nation that he was different than other politicians, and even a good portion of the rest of the world cheered his victory (and patted him on the back for nothing more than rhetoric). Not that any of the other crafty stooges of the corporate-military-media complex would have been any better than Obama, but I admire his ability to pull the wool over the eyes of even the so-called "enlightened" younger, more progressive generation.

Edit: Anthile ninja'd my Obama reference. Blast!
 

Lithorn

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@ Anthile
But isn't being excellent at manipulating people, making them think and feel what you want them to think and feel inherent in being a great orator?
 

BigApplePi

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BigApplePi

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Jesin

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Lyra. I know your great beauty to be unsurpassed. Are you going to allow this ... this .... to doubt you?

Lyra is beautiful, yes, but please, do not attempt to emphasize that by treating the rest of us as worthless.
 

Jordan~

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I wasn't being completely serious, really. What I meant about oratory vs. poetry is that an orator is attempting to convince an audience, as is a poet - an orator of some temporal nonsense, a poet of his evaluation of his theme. Poetry is much more elegantly convincing - as demonstrated by Neitzsche, who wrote in poetic language, and Goethe.

As a sidenote, my ethnocentrism was light-hearted (and I know it was ethnocentrist, but I'm British, that's my job); I do, however, think that English is simply more conducive towards certain types of communication; or rather that every language is. German may be conducive towards rhetoric. Going by my argument that the best speeches are written down and become poems, it's likely that the best one would be written in a language whose rules and vocabulary encourage poetry - like English. Objectively speaking, we do have the most words and one of the loosest grammars. That's not to say that there's not very worthy poetry in other languages.
For another example, I think French is very conducive towards literature - Camus, Dumas, Verne, Proust, etc.; or Latin is a good language for speeches - and I've studied Latin poetry, so I know that it exists and that it's very good. I just think that Cicero's speeches are more essentially Roman than the Aeneid or any of the elegists.
 

Lithorn

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@ Jordan
But you're commenting on the value of oration, not the actual skill of the orator(s) in question
 

Lyra

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Jordan, I did realise that you weren't being entirely serious in your reply.

Anthile: I was replying to Jordan's comments, obviously. Given that, surely my post speaks for itself?

BigApplePi: let's dance in starlight. And go mad over infinities.

Jesin: you are a wonderful fieldmouse.
 

BigApplePi

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Jordan, I did realise that you weren't being entirely serious in your reply.

Anthile: I was replying to Jordan's comments, obviously. Given that, surely my post speaks for itself?

BigApplePi: let's dance in starlight. And go mad over infinities.

Jesin: you are a wonderful fieldmouse.

I'll show you mad Lyra. Meet you over the horizon.

You may be required to wear an ankle bracelet and all that entails. After all I have a responsibility to this forum.
 
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