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GMO Foods

Dove

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Perhaps the tumours were related to the fact that the corn fed to the rats was not only gm but sprayed with herbicide... I have a hard time believing gm food on its own can cause such severe problems... To google!
 
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The surface science says no harm, or at least no difference between normal and modified.

The truth is that we're still very much working within a system that we don't understand.

EDIT: Having stated the above (which I will pragmatically defend, in addition to the fact that I despise the imperialism of Monsanto), this research is a bit sketchy.

What CAUSED the premature death? What do the necropsy results actually say?

Why didn't they account for glyphosate's half life when determining their dilutions?

What quantity of the herbicide is actually assimilated into the tissue of the grain itself, as opposed to say... being washed off before processing for human consumption?
 

TriflinThomas

Bitch, don't kill my vibe...
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I didn't read it, but I think the problem with genetically modified food is that it's modified to make larger profits and not for the benefit of people.
 
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These are the same luddite morons that don't vaccinate their kids.
No doubt in my mind that this is bullshit.

http://genome.fieldofscience.com/2012/09/gm-corn-causes-cancer-in-rats-study-in.html

As for the supposed conflict of interest consider the suppression of conflicting results conducted by industry scientists. Nonbiased entities (e.g. government agencies) frequently don't conduct their own studies in this arena, but instead review those conducted by industry, largely because it's cheaper.

As for the statistical analyses, PCA is legit and they had ample sample size to do it with statistical validity. Ditto for PLS regression. But OPLS-DA seems like something new they pulled out of their asses or from a spot near the end of a rather large stats decision tree.
 

Coolydudey

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*includes some genes for producing various vitamins into apples, to make them healthier* It works, no adverse effects found, everyone happy.
*includes same genes into oranges* It doesn't work, the oranges produce some difficult to detect toxin from their natural genome, a couple of people almost die.

It's obviously a far-fetched example, but I'm getting not only at the complexity of the variables involved, but also the fact that the label "GMO foods are bad/good/... for you" is too broad
 

Architect

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I doubt there's any truth to this article. At best there there might be a kernel of truth to what they spin. This page and site looks like liberal demagoguery; not much better than Fox News for the conservative wack-a-doodles. I have friends who listen to liberal-liberal radio and this is right in line with the nutty stuff they come up with.

A giveaway is the choice use of bold face to alarm you ... GMOs may be the new thalidomide. Oh noes!! (What teh fuck is thalidomides? But it sounds bad!)

Disclosure, I'm an independent who has liberal sympathies. At least the liberals can be entertaining.
 

Architect

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@Architect So you're assessing an article based on the spin of the hack website instead of say... reading and understanding the actual article?

http://research.sustainablefoodtrust.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Final-Paper.pdf

This study essentially repeats those conducted by private industry, with similar sample size and data analyses, e.g.


Snell, C., Bernheim, A., Bergé, J.-B., Kuntz, M., Pascal, G., Paris, A., Ricroch, A.E., 2011.
Assessment of the health impact of GM plant diets in long-term and
multigenerational animal feeding trials: a literature review. Food Chem.
Toxicol. 50, 1134–1148.

http://www.apic-ak.cz/data_ak/12/v/GMOvyzkumDDB.pdf
 

Solitaire U.

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"horrifying tumors"

Seems doubtful that this is an impartial, informative article. Didn't read further.
 
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Read the peer-reviewed scientific article, not the blog.

This is a perfect example of why the distribution mechanism of scientific data needs to be reformed.
 

Architect

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So you're assessing an article based on the spin of the hack website instead of say... reading and understanding the actual article?

@thehabitatdoctor

Excuse me! I was under the impression somebody posted an article looking for reactions, not that they were expecting us to dig out the original source and evaluate the viability of the research. My reaction is entirely appropriate for what was posted.

That link you sent also goes to a special interest groups page which is still suspicious. Regardless I don't have the expertise (do you?) to evaluate this research. In the medical and biological sciences there is a lot of hack research. This may be some, may not, which is why I wait for general acceptance by those communities until I form an opinion.
 
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Excuse me! You are excused, sir. I was under the impression somebody posted an article looking for reactions, not that they were expecting us to dig out the original source and evaluate the viability of the research. My reaction is entirely appropriate for what was posted.

So you're throwing the baby out with the bath water?

That link you sent also goes to a special interest groups page which is still suspicious. No. The link is to the peer-reviewed article, which happens to be hosted on such a site. This is the scientific publication, not a blog, and you can find the same thing with EBSCO or JSTOR. Regardless I don't have the expertise (do you?) Yes, this is one of the areas where I'm not restricted to speculation. to evaluate this research. In the medical and biological sciences there is a lot of hack research. It depends on who funds it. The private sector tends to be biased towards... the private sector by using a brute force approach to find anomalies that support their goals, basically funding a ton of studies and suppressing the results that don't suit them, or ending experiments at the first sign of a negative result without even waiting for a semi-complete dataset. Right now I'm running a side project using an insect to introduce a transgenically engineered virus to an invasive plant population that happens to be a problem pest for a certain industry. The frequency with which supposed tested methods fail is astonishing, as there are surprising holes in places where they shouldn't be. It's enlightening, in all the wrong ways and speaks to data suppression. This may be some, may not, which is why I wait for general acceptance by those communities until I form an opinion. It will be a long time before general acceptance exists in the GMO arena because there are no objective evaluators. The closest entities are government agencies, which review results submitted by the private sector. Legally, unless it's a major fiasco, you'll never see them running tests themselves, just reviewing what was submitted to them. If they don't like it, they ask the industry to redo it, as if they weren't speaking to the fox guarding the henhouse. Same for the rest of the FDA, including pharmaceuticals (although pharm companies stand a greater risk, so they tend to do a better job regarding what goes into people. What happens after it leaves people is another tangent).
.
 

PhoenixRising

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ℜεмїηїs¢εη¢ε They engineer the corn to produce its own insecticide.

From what I heard, all the studies linking GMO foods to cancer were done by one guy who's credibility is fuzzy. However, I am allergic to all GMO food, so there must be something wrong with it at least on a subtle level. The instance of food allergies, especially to gluten containing food grains, doubles every 20 years in industrial countries. There is a causal link between this phenomenon and genetic modification of popular foods.
 
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They engineer the corn to produce its own insecticide.

Because round-up (glyphosate) was applied in the experiment, I think this is more the standard case of making the crop resistant to glyphosate so that when herbicide is applied to the whole field, only the crop survives. Could be a combo though, with something like the initial GMO that made potatoes immune to the Colorado potato beetle (a perfectly good GMO compared to others).
 

PhoenixRising

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Because round-up (glyphosate) was applied in the experiment, I think this is more the standard case of making the crop resistant to glyphosate so that when herbicide is applied to the whole field, only the crop survives. Could be a combo though, with something like the initial GMO that made potatoes immune to the Colorado potato beetle (a perfectly good GMO compared to others).
Yes, that is another application of GMO that is currently used commercially.
 

intpz

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Those are rats.

Who cares? :confused: And anyway, what's the difference between rats and mice? Same nasty little piece of shit anyway. Some people keep either one of them at home, whether intentionally or partially. Nasty people.

-------------------

Well, I haven't read the article and good thing I didn't. Seems like most people think it's bullshit, therefore it's not worth my time reading and then doing the research. I was there only for the images. :D
 

merzbau

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@thehabitatdoctor

Are you a plant scientist? I would very much appreciate if you could give me your views on a particular subject. I have heard many GMO proponents, Kevin Folta among others, make a claim that GM can be no more harmful than traditional breeding, as selective breeding moves tens of thousands of genes at one time, GMO 1-3 at most. In fact, as GMOs are qualitatively controlled and assessed, the danger of unintended side effects is much greater with traditional plant breeding.

I have my suspicions as to the veracity of this statement, but I'd like to hear your thoughts.
 

Words

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I'm supposed to have been eating this stuff, the marketed ones, for over 10 years. No mutations or any mishaps so far.
 

Intellect

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The scariest part of GMO foods is that something like 90% of genetically modified crops are owned by a single corporation (Monsanto).

Regardless of whether or not genetically modified foods are dangerous, the fact that there aren't even equal competitors in the GMO market for crops is frightening.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZkDikRLQrw

Above clip is from the documentary The Corporation (excellent movie, btw). Clearly shows some of the unethical processes and nasty effects of what Monsanto does.
 
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@thehabitatdoctor

Are you a plant scientist? I would very much appreciate if you could give me your views on a particular subject. I have heard many GMO proponents, Kevin Folta among others, make a claim that GM can be no more harmful than traditional breeding, as selective breeding moves tens of thousands of genes at one time, GMO 1-3 at most. In fact, as GMOs are qualitatively controlled and assessed, the danger of unintended side effects is much greater with traditional plant breeding.

I have my suspicions as to the veracity of this statement, but I'd like to hear your thoughts.

I'm not a plant scientist, but I picked up my current side project after it was dropped by the industry about a decade ago because it wasn't profitable, not because it can't work, which speaks volumes.

The problem with GMOs is that although there are fewer genes involved, they're inserted randomly into the genome so the unpredictability is much greater. The same genetic sequence produces a wide array of both stable and unstable phenotypes. Most of the changes due to selective breeding occur near the telomeres (where mutations are "supposed" to occur) and generally produce stable phenotypes, with things like apple trees being exceptions because they're not true to seed and revert back to phenotypes resembling those in their native Kazakhstan.

And then there's another can of worms regarding ownership of genetic material, especially in wind-pollinated crops. The consequences of hybridization between GMO and normal genotypes are also up for grabs, and because the GMO genes themselves are patented, genetic contamination can cost farmers growing legit crops if tests show GMO genes present.
 

merzbau

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I'm not a plant scientist, but I picked up my current side project after it was dropped by the industry about a decade ago because it wasn't profitable, not because it can't work, which speaks volumes.

Well if it cheers you up at all, know that there are many people in the community who appreciate that good science is done, whether it's profitable or not. We need scientists who care about the truth.


The problem with GMOs is that although there are fewer genes involved, they're inserted randomly into the genome so the unpredictability is much greater. The same genetic sequence produces a wide array of both stable and unstable phenotypes. Most of the changes due to selective breeding occur near the telomeres (where mutations are "supposed" to occur) and generally produce stable phenotypes, with things like apple trees being exceptions because they're not true to seed and revert back to phenotypes resembling those in their native Kazakhstan.

Interesting, thanks for your answers. So in your opinion, the claim is unsubstantiated because regardless of the amount of genes being transferred, the artificial insertion process gives rise to defects in all areas of the genome, not just the telomeres, as seen in natural breeding. So it's not the amount of genes being transferred that we need to be worried about, but the process by which they are inserted?

What I have read is that sister chromatid exchange is actually a very precise method of recombining genes, unlike artificial insertion, which has not evolved, over many hundreds of thousands of years (or longer), a system of checks and guides to limit defects and preserve the integrity of the genome. To say nothing of mutations caused by tissue culture.

And as the transgenic insertion process is the same as cisgenic, I imagine you'd see the same unpredictible changes there as well. Even though there is currently a push in Europe to treat cisgenics as equivalent to conventional species. A clever way of swerving around regulation speed bumps, if you will.


And then there's another can of worms regarding ownership of genetic material, especially in wind-pollinated crops. The consequences of hybridization between GMO and normal genotypes are also up for grabs, and because the GMO genes themselves are patented, genetic contamination can cost farmers growing legit crops if tests show GMO genes present.

Yes, the case of Monsanto v. Schmeiser is an infamous example of this. Another problem looming on the GM horizon involves horizontal gene transfer of antibiotic resistance markers etc. into human gut flora, which may turn out to have some highly deleterious effects.
 
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Interesting, thanks for your answers. So in your opinion, the claim is unsubstantiated because regardless of the amount of genes being transferred, the artificial insertion process gives rise to defects in all areas of the genome, not just the telomeres, as seen in natural breeding.

That's basically a frame shift which wouldn't necessarily impact the whole genome, but there are also potential issues with epistatic effects as well as another type of interaction (I cannot remember the word right now for the life of me) where nucleotide sequences interact with others that they happen to be beside when they're wrapped around a histone. i.e. the sequences aren't next to each other in the double helix, but come into contact as the double helix is twisted (just like if you keep twisting a rope enough it'll eventually wind up looking more like a boogered clusterfuck than a rope). And then there's polyploidy.

So it's not the amount of genes being transferred that we need to be worried about, but the process by which they are inserted?

Yes. Ideally we'd know the entire genetic architecture of a given crop before we started sticking things in random places; sequence the genome and play around with the parts to see how the genetic machinery actually works. I have no idea why we're putting so much time into drosophila. They're nice model organisms. They're not going to feed billions.

What I have read is that sister chromatid exchange is actually a very precise method of recombining genes, unlike artificial insertion, which has not evolved, over many hundreds of thousands of years (or longer), a system of checks and guides to limit defects and preserve the integrity of the genome. To say nothing of mutations caused by tissue culture.

And as the transgenic insertion process is the same as cisgenic, I imagine you'd see the same unpredictible changes there as well. Even though there is currently a push in Europe to treat cisgenics as equivalent to conventional species. A clever way of swerving around regulation speed bumps, if you will.

Cisgenic insertion should theoretically cause less issues, but again, we should know the machinery of the organism first.

Yes, the case of Monsanto v. Schmeiser is an infamous example of this. Another problem looming on the GM horizon involves horizontal gene transfer of antibiotic resistance markers etc. into human gut flora, which may turn out to have some highly deleterious effects.
.
 

merzbau

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That's basically a frame shift which wouldn't necessarily impact the whole genome, but there are also potential issues with epistatic effects as well as another type of interaction (I cannot remember the word right now for the life of me) where nucleotide sequences interact with others that they happen to be beside when they're wrapped around a histone. i.e. the sequences aren't next to each other in the double helix, but come into contact as the double helix is twisted (just like if you keep twisting a rope enough it'll eventually wind up looking more like a boogered clusterfuck than a rope). And then there's polyploidy.

Hmm, that's straying into territory that's a little too technical for me - but I get the overall gist, that there are plenty of opportunities for interaction between genes, multiplying the possibility of damage if an artificial insertion occurs.


So it's not the amount of genes being transferred that we need to be worried about, but the process by which they are inserted?

Yes. Ideally we'd know the entire genetic architecture of a given crop before we started sticking things in random places; sequence the genome and play around with the parts to see how the genetic machinery actually works. I have no idea why we're putting so much time into drosophila. They're nice model organisms. They're not going to feed billions.

I agree, I think GM is still very much in its infancy, and should never have been pushed to market so hastily. But the biotech industry thinks differently, and they've been very good at convincing government agencies.


Cisgenic insertion should theoretically cause less issues, but again, we should know the machinery of the organism first.

Indeed. Thanks for your input.
 
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So some mysterious "experts" argue in generalities against the study and ad hominem the French laboratory. It largely parrots the other news article addressed earlier. To briefly address their specifics:

They didn't have a hypothesis? Really? H1=administering GMO corn/herbicide results in a change, H0=no difference.

The strain of rats used for all study groups is consistent. Simple individual t-tests would show a difference, let alone the analyses that they chose. It's a standard factorial design with bootstrapping to address the purported "randomness" issue. Yes, ideally we'd like to have 8000 rats per group. Hell, ideally we'd like to skip the rats entirely and go straight to humans, but we can't exactly do that, especially at what I'm assuming to be an underfunded French lab, compared to industry funding.

There isn't some magic rule in science that says experimental effects are proportional in ignorance of thresholds and synergy. By definition, a toxic substance kills regardless of its concentration, which is contrasted by a hazardous substance, which kills beyond a certain threshold concentration.

There ARE imperfections in the study, it's just that none of them are really brought up outside of generalized propaganda. And yes, I knew who the source was before typing "propaganda". ;)
 
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