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Gender role reversals

Inquisitor

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Does anyone ever notice that increasingly men are getting more effeminate and women are getting more masculine? I've perused past threads for this topic, so apologies if it has already been discussed.

I see this trend occurring both in terms of physical appearance as well as behavior. Women seem even more aggressive than men in some ways.

I see it being due to a combination of a high-animal-foods diet (laden with boat-loads of hormones) as well as feminism in general.

Both genders seem to be affected. Maybe women slightly more so...interested to hear what you guys think about this...
 

redbaron

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I don't see the trend to be honest. I just see that people are more tolerant of and feel more secure in expressing who they naturally are as a result of various shifts in culture.

In early nomadic and tribal cultures, men were often the ones getting dressed up and dancing and doing a whole bunch of things we consider "effeminate" today was just the cultural norm.

You could make the argument that in actual fact, genders are starting to revert to their natural tendencies.
 

Jennywocky

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Nox

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I believe you are not viewing gender in an authentic manner. It all depends on your definition of masculine and feminine. If you are referring to historical definitions in a specific culture than you can maybe start making some observations, but your question seems too broad and too exclusive of many other factors. What is gender? What culture are you referring to? Why are some things considered masculine and some feminine? If I had to make a statement about american culture in the way you seem to be trying to, I would say it seems people seem to simply be deviating away from gender norms, finally.
 

TBerg

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The definitions roughly correspond to both Confucian and Abrahamic definitions of gender. Almost the whole world now.
 

Inquisitor

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I believe you are not viewing gender in an authentic manner. It all depends on your definition of masculine and feminine. If you are referring to historical definitions in a specific culture than you can maybe start making some observations, but your question seems too broad and too exclusive of many other factors. What is gender? What culture are you referring to? Why are some things considered masculine and some feminine? If I had to make a statement about american culture in the way you seem to be trying to, I would say it seems people seem to simply be deviating away from gender norms, finally.

It's pretty basic actually. Women are acting more like men: assertive, domineering, aggressive. In men these traits seem to be on the decline, and many even speak like women. I was particularly struck by this in college 10 years ago. It's more or less the same now. I just find that when I talk to people in this country, there's just less and less of a distinction between man and woman.
 

Brontosaurie

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maybe in cultural stereotyping. not in core functionality.
 

redbaron

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Inquisitor said:
Women are acting more like men: assertive, domineering, aggressive.

This just boils down to what you perceive to be masculine traits.
 

The Gopher

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Yes many more men have been giving birth lately. It's shocking.

Ahh no hold up! Men are less and less in danger and women are more and more so. Because of this men are able to act less masculine (because who would be masculine if given a choice) where as women adapt and become more masculine.

Obviously feminism is oppressing poor females by telling them to be more like men when even men don't want to be like men.

*insert down arrow here*
 

TheManBeyond

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Sinny91

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Yea, I know what you mean OP.
I believe it's an occultic agenda, if you search the alternative media you will find much discourse; I was listening to a pod cast of Jason Horsely's the other night, discussing the same subject - I'll see I can locate it..
 

Jennywocky

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An occultic agenda?

... i never know what on this site is satire vs serious....

Demon Lord Azeroth: BWA HA HA! Finally! We have mixed up the genders so the puny humans can no longer discern their true reproductive roles in society! Next we shall mix the races! And then we shall mess up the MBTI so no one can tell what type they are! Civilization will crumble! Mankind is ours!

Igor: yeessss..... masssster! *cackles*

Snarf: *snarf snarf* *whine*
 

Black Rose

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An occultic agenda?

... i never know what on this site is satire vs serious....

Demon Lord Azeroth: BWA HA HA! Finally! We have mixed up the genders so the puny humans can no longer discern their true reproductive roles in society! Next we shall mix the races! And then we shall mess up the MBTI so no one can tell what type they are! Civilization will crumble! Mankind is ours!

Igor: yeessss..... masssster! *cackles*

Snarf: *snarf snarf* *whine*

all you can do is present the evidence and let people decide for themselves :D

https://youtu.be/tz8b5WtkOPU
 

crippli

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As long as there is femininity, masculinity and androgyny, I don't care who is who.
 

onesteptwostep

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I think if you want to get technical and all, it's not really in the job description for a male be masculine, same with females. I don't think it's food either, because that would mean that females long time ago ate differently then men or something. It probably has to do with modernity lessening the jobs males were to do, as well with females, meaning both sexes can partake in whichever task, lessening the prevalence of roles dictated and reasoned by sex (biological anatomy). E.g. females don't have to be in the house 24/7 to raise their kids now, males can help out too now, and/or daycare centers. Child rearing imo is what causes a lot of the gender divide.
 

Sinny91

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An occultic agenda?

... i never know what on this site is satire vs serious....

Demon Lord Azeroth: BWA HA HA! Finally! We have mixed up the genders so the puny humans can no longer discern their true reproductive roles in society! Next we shall mix the races! And then we shall mess up the MBTI so no one can tell what type they are! Civilization will crumble! Mankind is ours!

Igor: yeessss..... masssster! *cackles*

Snarf: *snarf snarf* *whine*

Real knowledge, is to know the extent of one's ignorance - Confusius.
 

Vrecknidj

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Does anyone ever notice that increasingly men are getting more effeminate and women are getting more masculine?
When you say "more" what is your comparison? Yesterday? 100 years ago? The United States? The Pleistocene?
I see this trend occurring both in terms of physical appearance as well as behavior. Women seem even more aggressive than men in some ways.
Again, compared to when? Compared to what societies?
I see it being due to a combination of a high-animal-foods diet (laden with boat-loads of hormones) as well as feminism in general.
Really? You're being honest about this?
 

ProxyAmenRa

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Does anyone ever notice that increasingly men are getting more effeminate and women are getting more masculine? I've perused past threads for this topic, so apologies if it has already been discussed.

I see this trend occurring both in terms of physical appearance as well as behavior. Women seem even more aggressive than men in some ways.

I see it being due to a combination of a high-animal-foods diet (laden with boat-loads of hormones) as well as feminism in general.

Both genders seem to be affected. Maybe women slightly more so...interested to hear what you guys think about this...

I don't see this occurring either. There is a movement out there trying to make men more effeminate. In the long run this will backfire on the women who want this because they are not attracted to nor compatible with effeminate men.
 

Jennywocky

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Real knowledge, is to know the extent of one's ignorance - Confusius.

Is he, like, Confucius' cousin? :confused: <-- I'm definitely confused.

I don't see this occurring either. There is a movement out there trying to make men more effeminate. In the long run this will backfire on the women who want this because they are not attracted to nor compatible with effeminate men.

In lieu of sweeping broad statements, why not explain a bit what you mean by "effeminate" here. Do you just mean men who aren't as aggressive, or who might actually interact without trying to dominate, or who are willing to share in some more traditionally feminine social tasks, or who actually take women seriously in the workplace, or do you meant someone like this?

484104101e25ced23bcb796130259eb2.jpg


Who is part of this nefarious "movement"? A little more explanation would be helpful.
 

crippli

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The human race is inferior(Some) fish change sex on will alone. Regardless of their gender identity.

That said. A very beautiful woman shakes her ass and snugged herself around me this evening. Telling me I was very beautiful. And I should dance. Shaking her butt a bit more. "MOVE YOUR BODY" me:"meh, not drunk enough" My attention was on the guy staring at us with a Very Sour Expression.

Regardless. Women got rid of the corset. And I presume, everyone knows that the point of the corset was to restrain the woman. So she didn't take over the world.
 

cheese

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It's pretty basic actually. Women are acting more like men: assertive, domineering, aggressive. In men these traits seem to be on the decline, and many even speak like women. I was particularly struck by this in college 10 years ago. It's more or less the same now. I just find that when I talk to people in this country, there's just less and less of a distinction between man and woman.

Unexamined assumption: Those traits are men's/Men have one set of traits, women have another.

You probably have a more nuanced premise behind what you're saying, but you'll have to spell it out in detail, because this is pretty weak at the moment.
 

Sinny91

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Is he, like, Confucius' cousin? :confused: <-- I'm definitely confused.

Typo; I'll take more care in future, as apparently it doesn't take a lot to confuse you.
 

Cognisant

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Transhummanist Agenda, I don't even words :D

The non-occult version is what I've been talking about for ages, transitioning out of a human state into (eventually) a digital state; existing as a simulated consciousness is a "higher" (by which I mean more abstracted) level of existence. Y'see being human is a limitation, both in body and mind, physically the advantages of no longer being trapped in "meat-space" are pretty obvious but what's really exciting is no longer being mentally trapped in the human paradigm.

The attainment of Buddhahood is the complete negation of desire through will, however it's not only a difficult state of mind to obtain it's also difficult to maintain because we aren't by nature in full control of ourselves. But if we were no longer human, no longer trapped in the human mental paradigm we could remove desire at its source and thus attain a state of Buddhahood without even really trying.

To put it simply Buddhahood is a state of complete self control (yes I know that's a gross oversimplification), a Buddha has limitless patience, a Buddha isn't affected by emotion, a Buddha never behaves rashly or inappropriately, a Buddha never makes such mistakes because he/she is in complete control. Hence all the mantras and rituals and meditative practices and why monks do martial arts, it's all about training oneself to have the self discipline and self awareness Buddhahood requires.

Of course attaining that self control through external means rather than practiced discipline is a path fraught with danger but it's a path we must take if we're to someday make it feasible for everyone to attain it (I'm certainly no buddhatva) which is the path to utopia.
 

Sinny91

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I don't know what this video is about nor do I care to watch it. Summary?

I can offer a summary without having watched it; the still image clearly implies the content will be a narrated overview of Transhumanism, with undertones of the masculine and feminine taken into account.

To no one in particular -
I am on an NT forum aren't I?
Or did I take a wrong turn somewhere?
 

Jennywocky

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Typo; I'll take more care in future, as apparently it doesn't take a lot to confuse you.

You're very kind. (Is that feminine enough?)

To no one in particular -
I am on an NT forum aren't I?
Or did I take a wrong turn somewhere?

I think we do this shit for fun, every once in a while.

(You know, experience how the other parts of society live and all that....)

Is that you?

Dayum ;)

Oh, that was harsh. Very harsh.

My 5 o'clock shadow isn't as dark.

Wait, maybe men are feminized like this picture?

worst16.jpg

Tell me when I'm getting warm.
 

Black Rose

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Transhummanist Agenda, I don't even words :D

To put it simply Buddhahood is a state of complete self control (yes I know that's a gross oversimplification)

i am very pro transhumanism i just like watching the new cultures spreading on the internet, it is very entertaining. i hope i can gain some self control through transhumanism, i am very emotional sensitive. also lucid dreaming would be fun :)
 

Inquisitor

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When you say "more" what is your comparison? Yesterday? 100 years ago? The United States? The Pleistocene?
Again, compared to when? Compared to what societies?
Really? You're being honest about this?

I wish I could give you concrete data to back up what I'm saying but it's mostly just a general impression...And yes I am serious.

I don't see this occurring either. There is a movement out there trying to make men more effeminate. In the long run this will backfire on the women who want this because they are not attracted to nor compatible with effeminate men.

Well...kinda. I don't really see women trying to make men effeminate so much as I see women declaring that they don't need a man to be happy and so men kind of just shrug and think what's the point? Why go through all the trouble if she doesn't really appreciate/need me and can take half my assets in a few years through a litigation process that favors her? I agree there will be a backlash though. They've dug their own hole.

Regardless. Women got rid of the corset. And I presume, everyone knows that the point of the corset was to restrain the woman. So she didn't take over the world.

Ha. I don't think that was the point of the corset, but interesting metaphor. I do think women have the upper hand nowadays in most areas. There are a few bastions of male domination that remain, for instance silicon valley, but overall, I think they've already taken over and will continue to do so. They're better students, and they mature earlier. Plus they have the extra incentive to get their act together asap if they want to have both career and family.

I think if you want to get technical and all, it's not really in the job description for a male be masculine, same with females. I don't think it's food either, because that would mean that females long time ago ate differently then men or something. It probably has to do with modernity lessening the jobs males were to do, as well with females, meaning both sexes can partake in whichever task lessening the prevalence of roles dictated and reasoned by sex (biological anatomy). E.g. females don't have to be in the house 24/7 to raise their kids now, males can help out too now, and/or daycare centers. Child rearing imo is what causes a lot of the gender divide.

Yeah agreed on those points.

Ok, so I've refined my ideas a little bit on the physical aspects of this trend:

When I spent time in southern China (Kunming to be exact), I was a horny young lad at the time, and I remember Chinese women having really large breasts. Proportionately much larger in fact than those of most American women. Imagine a relatively thin woman with large breasts. It's fairly uncommon in America (which is why it's so highly prized), you either see overweight women with large breasts, or slim women with small breasts. The difference was really quite striking when I returned home.

The point is, and I know this sounds ridiculous, and please correct me if you think I'm wrong, but I don't think Chinese women in the south have historically been known as voluptuous women. In fact, I think it's just the opposite. They've primarily consumed a rice/vegetable-based diet for thousands of years. Meat was probably available, but definitely not in the quantities that it is today with factory farming. It's just been in the past couple decades that meat has become a significant part of the Chinese diet.

Therefore, I think that the reason these women had such large breasts (and this observation was shared by many expats from many countries including USA, UK, Norway, Sweden) was probably due to something they were ingesting. Reason for that being that their bodies were probably genetically adapted to consuming a rice/vegetable-based diet and the sudden shift to high meat/milk diet led to drastic hormonal changes that increased breast size. It was food and/or water that did this.

When I look at American women, they don't exhibit the same proportions as Chinese women, and this makes me think their bodies are not as hormonally sensitive to a high meat/milk diet. That's the common denominator. That said, American women have broader shoulders, hips appear to be the same size, but they also have more well-developed musculature, and overall their features are just less...fine? Idk how else to say it...they just don't look as feminine. On the flip side, the Chinese men I saw were ridiculously effeminate-looking compared to American men.

I know this theory sounds ridiculous, but I swear there's meat to this idea. No pun intended. Ok, maybe it was intended. Just a little tip...I mean a little bit.
 

crippli

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Well...kinda. I don't really see women trying to make men effeminate so much as I see women declaring that they don't need a man to be happy and so men kind of just shrug and think what's the point? Why go through all the trouble if she doesn't really appreciate/need me and can take half my assets in a few years through a litigation process that favors her? I agree there will be a backlash though. They've dug their own hole.



Ha. I don't think that was the point of the corset, but interesting metaphor. I do think women have the upper hand nowadays in most areas. There are a few bastions of male domination that remain, for instance silicon valley, but overall, I think they've already taken over and will continue to do so. They're better students, and they mature earlier. Plus they have the extra incentive to get their act together asap if they want to have both career and family.
Ah. Civilization is all about making rules/laws. The one who is better at that will rule.The rest will get in trouble if they can not follow. There is no better way to gain power. Then to make laws, and have people follow them/thrown in jail, executed if they fail.

Things oscillate.
 

Ex-User (11125)

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In lieu of sweeping broad statements, why not explain a bit what you mean by "effeminate" here. Do you just mean men who aren't as aggressive, or who might actually interact without trying to dominate, or who are willing to share in some more traditionally feminine social tasks, or who actually take women seriously in the workplace, or do you meant someone like this?

Yeah I think some people on this thread are claiming men became more "effeminate" when they really mean to say "not overbearing"
 

Yellow

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I afraid that Inquisitor is confusing genetic inheritance with culturally influenced (and highly changeable) behaviors. Less technically, I think some of the correlations are flawed. It's very late, my first dose of nighttime cold medicine in over 10 years is about to kick in, and I'm on my phone, so I will have to expand on this later.
 

Cognisant

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Fashion has certainly changed but that's gone back and forth throughout the centuries, generally speaking the wealthier society is the more effeminate it becomes, in ancient Egypt or imperial China or aristocratic France men wore just as much makeup than women, if not more, indeed sometimes much much more. It's a relative fitness thing, a big thuggish guy wouldn't get far in ancient Rome but he'd rule the roost in more barbarous lands, these days being the tough guy doesn't really get you anywhere but if you're intelligent & charismatic the world is your oyster.

Women find successful men more attractive so we have to adapt to the circumstances.

In terms of women's rights and equality we've made huge strides since the 1950's, so much so in fact it's debatable whether or not it's gone too far, in terms of employment being female can be as much an advantage as a disadvantage. Attractive women never have a hard time getting a job (because most employers are male) but at the same time it can be harder to move up the ladder when you're valued for you gender rather than your skills. As for unattractive women I think they're on a level playing field with their peers and if there's any problem there then it's a matter of perceived entitlement, bear in mind I've worked for female bosses for five to six years and I'm just now moving into a role where my boss will once again be female.

I find it hard to believe there's a glass ceiling when my superiors have all been female.

Unless the reason I keep getting female bosses is because I'm being hired for my gender :confused:
13440840308763.jpg
In terms of the law it's currently skewed in women's favor, particularly marital laws, that said it's not entirely unjustified, a single punch from a waifish women isn't as serious a case of assault as a single punch thrown by a heavily built man, now I'm not saying there isn't tough women out there just that statistically speaking men tend to have more muscle mass and culture reflects the generality, not the specific.

All in all I don't think men are being emasculated by society, I think the real issue is one of emotional/fiscal security, in the modern world things like infidelity are a lot less stigmatized and it's accepted that a young woman may go through several relationships before she settles down. This freedom for women isn't a bad thing but it puts guys under a lot more stress, if they want a secure relationship a guy has to go above and beyond to prove himself a better partner than whoever else might come along. This I think is where the feeling of emasculation comes from, for most guys there's no equality in relationships and this isn't women's fault or society's fault the simple fact of the matter is it's a buyer's market so to speak, there's a gender imbalance.

At least there is here in Australia, I can't remember the last time I saw an Indian woman but I meet Indian guys every day, and Chinese guys and Korean guys and Arabic guys and English and American guys and for fucksake people I'm not racist and I'm not against immigration but this is a problem.

I know a lot of guys who have outright told me they fake being in love because they know they're just placeholders, they can't imagine ever trusting someone enough to marry them, no matter how whipped you are that's where you have to draw the line because once you sign that form she owns half your stuff.

It's depressing, the guy I'm boarding with at the moment told me he doesn't see the point in trying anymore, he just finds happiness in other things (games mostly) and has resolved to be content with that.
 

Rook

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Demon Lord Azeroth: BWA HA HA! Finally! We have mixed up the genders so the puny humans can no longer discern their true reproductive roles in society! Next we shall mix the races! And then we shall mess up the MBTI so no one can tell what type they are! Civilization will crumble! Mankind is ours!

tumblr_lnrhuux7s01qifnz6.png

These words reminded me of the nuchahos in neotopia.
 

_whispers_

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I think if you want to get technical and all, it's not really in the job description for a male be masculine, same with females. I don't think it's food either, because that would mean that females long time ago ate differently then men or something. It probably has to do with modernity lessening the jobs males were to do, as well with females, meaning both sexes can partake in whichever task, lessening the prevalence of roles dictated and reasoned by sex (biological anatomy). E.g. females don't have to be in the house 24/7 to raise their kids now, males can help out too now, and/or daycare centers. Child rearing imo is what causes a lot of the gender divide.

Throughout history both genders have participated equally in raising the children. Only when the factories became the main source of jobs the divide came around. Due to the heavy conditions men were more suitable for working there. Before that everyone had to participate in working the land.

As for the topic I've seen so many different explanations that I don't care about one. I think it's just one of many cultural shifts.

One explanation says that we've been pushing males to act like macho for so long that we've damaged them. Now they are finally cracking and can't take the pressure anymore, that's why they are acting like what we would perceive as feminine.

Different one: There is some evidence that hormonal anti-pregnancy pills affect the female brain and changes their preference for partners. So instead of a strong muscular man, women want an effeminate one. Popular culture is changing to reflect that and men are following to find women.

Another one - marketing. Companies are taking advantage of current social events and blowing them out of proportion to sell more products.

And of course feminism is evil and confuses women and that's why they are acting like men.

There should be more, but can't remember them right now.
 

onesteptwostep

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When I spent time in southern China (Kunming to be exact), I was a horny young lad at the time, and I remember Chinese women having really large breasts. Proportionately much larger in fact than those of most American women. Imagine a relatively thin woman with large breasts. It's fairly uncommon in America (which is why it's so highly prized), you either see overweight women with large breasts, or slim women with small breasts. The difference was really quite striking when I returned home.

The point is, and I know this sounds ridiculous, and please correct me if you think I'm wrong, but I don't think Chinese women in the south have historically been known as voluptuous women. In fact, I think it's just the opposite. They've primarily consumed a rice/vegetable-based diet for thousands of years. Meat was probably available, but definitely not in the quantities that it is today with factory farming. It's just been in the past couple decades that meat has become a significant part of the Chinese diet.

Therefore, I think that the reason these women had such large breasts (and this observation was shared by many expats from many countries including USA, UK, Norway, Sweden) was probably due to something they were ingesting. Reason for that being that their bodies were probably genetically adapted to consuming a rice/vegetable-based diet and the sudden shift to high meat/milk diet led to drastic hormonal changes that increased breast size. It was food and/or water that did this.

When I look at American women, they don't exhibit the same proportions as Chinese women, and this makes me think their bodies are not as hormonally sensitive to a high meat/milk diet. That's the common denominator. That said, American women have broader shoulders, hips appear to be the same size, but they also have more well-developed musculature, and overall their features are just less...fine? Idk how else to say it...they just don't look as feminine. On the flip side, the Chinese men I saw were ridiculously effeminate-looking compared to American men.

I know this theory sounds ridiculous, but I swear there's meat to this idea. No pun intended. Ok, maybe it was intended. Just a little tip...I mean a little bit.

I agree with East Asian women being more voluptuous, I definitely see that in Korea. The older generation always do seem to note that kids are bigger and more finely built these days, especially since after the Americans brought in milk and meat. But I don't think it's the opposite in America in a sense. There's plenty of 'voluptous' women there... maybe you're being a little to hard on women in your country ;) (or your region perhaps? I dunno) I think the whole feminism-aggressive thing was always there though. The lid on the can was merely just opened. As for Chinese men looking effeminate or whatever it's probably a cultural difference in how a 'masculine' male should look like. There are trends in styles too if you're talking about the more extreme cases. (e.g. like this little piece of horror)

I think to a certain point people's sense of sexuality are developed slower now (debatable though, I know), plus with the fact that we don't exercise out as often during development, especially females. This I think causes their features to pronounce slower; females hit their beauty prime around 25 from what I hear, but I feel it's getting pushed higher as the times go by. That's what it seems to be in asia, not sure how it is in the west these days.

And I think personally, since we're on the subject of feminism, that the whole feminism thing is just a meta-figure of a female young-adult 'whining about motherhood' kind of thing. well anyway I digress >.>

At least there is here in Australia, I can't remember the last time I saw an Indian woman but I meet Indian guys every day, and Chinese guys and Korean guys and Arabic guys and English and American guys and for fucksake people I'm not racist and I'm not against immigration but this is a problem.

I know a lot of guys who have outright told me they fake being in love because they know they're just placeholders, they can't imagine ever trusting someone enough to marry them, no matter how whipped you are that's where you have to draw the line because once you sign that form she owns half your stuff.

It's depressing, the guy I'm boarding with at the moment told me he doesn't see the point in trying anymore, he just finds happiness in other things (games mostly) and has resolved to be content with that.

Hmm I think that's due to their ethnic races not being represented in media. Immigrant females look at that I think, the men of the media in the country they're in, which is in most cases predominately white, as their only model for a successful male (and as well as how to treat men in general to a degree). It doesn't really just go for immigrant females either, native ones are the same- 1st gens 2nd gens don't have air time in media therefore they're marginalized and/or simply ignored by them. 1st gen 2nd gen immigrants are simply screwed by females in general. The cultural playing field isn't good for them. You have to be either successful or stand out of the crowd in someway to get an edge.

But the case always isn't like that- it's gotten pretty mellow in California for example, because of the culture developed by the 2nd gens of immigrants. Time blends cultural divides, and then seems to mends them.

Not sure how the culture will develop in Australia though. Kinda sucks to be your boardmate, sounds like he's having a slump.
 

Architect

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Over several decades the trend is clear I think. Like many things in the developed world, it first showed up in Japan with the men becoming more feminized. It's become such a problem now because younger guys aren't interested in having families, or even having much sex. Major problem as Japan doesn't allow immigration.

In the US (and possibly Europe) we're following suit I think. Consider the 60's, women were women. Big bushes, hairy armpits and big boobs, the hippie chicks were all walking around having sex, and the men were muscular and hairy too.

Today, the women are all shaved off, with the ideal being some tiny bare small breasted nymph. The men (boys really) are pussies. Either wearing hoodies like an idiot, dressing like a dandy with some stupid hat (that meme is gone I think), or jeans and a t-shirt. Usually the guys are really lightly muscled too, or gone to fat.

If you look back to, say the late 1800's the distinction between men and women couldn't be more clear. Now, not so much. Don't know why the trend, probably our (your parents) fault.
 

Inquisitor

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Ah. Civilization is all about making rules/laws. The one who is better at that will rule.The rest will get in trouble if they can not follow. There is no better way to gain power. Then to make laws, and have people follow them/thrown in jail, executed if they fail.

Things oscillate.

Seems accurate.

Yeah I think some people on this thread are claiming men became more "effeminate" when they really mean to say "not overbearing"

No I do mean "effeminate." It's most striking when I see American men and women interacting together. The woman stays herself i.e. her manner of speaking/personality doesn't seem to change much, whereas the man frequently mirrors the woman. Voice pitch seems to increase, so does tempo. Use of vocabulary such as "like" "totally" "ohmygod" "me too." Particularly prevalent among high school and college-aged men. It's almost as if they feel that women are in control of the current social hierarchy and so they try to imitate them to fit in and be accepted. It reeks of fear. I don't think men in the past would ever have done this. Frankly, I don't think women want them to act this way either. If anything, I think women are much more attracted to men who aren't afraid of being themselves, even if who they are is not highly esteemed by others.

Fashion has certainly changed but that's gone back and forth throughout the centuries, generally speaking the wealthier society is the more effeminate it becomes, in ancient Egypt or imperial China or aristocratic France men wore just as much makeup than women, if not more, indeed sometimes much much more. It's a relative fitness thing, a big thuggish guy wouldn't get far in ancient Rome but he'd rule the roost in more barbarous lands, these days being the tough guy doesn't really get you anywhere but if you're intelligent & charismatic the world is your oyster.

Women find successful men more attractive so we have to adapt to the circumstances.

In terms of women's rights and equality we've made huge strides since the 1950's, so much so in fact it's debatable whether or not it's gone too far, in terms of employment being female can be as much an advantage as a disadvantage. Attractive women never have a hard time getting a job (because most employers are male) but at the same time it can be harder to move up the ladder when you're valued for you gender rather than your skills. As for unattractive women I think they're on a level playing field with their peers and if there's any problem there then it's a matter of perceived entitlement, bear in mind I've worked for female bosses for five to six years and I'm just now moving into a role where my boss will once again be female.

I find it hard to believe there's a glass ceiling when my superiors have all been female.

Unless the reason I keep getting female bosses is because I'm being hired for my gender :confused:
13440840308763.jpg
In terms of the law it's currently skewed in women's favor, particularly marital laws, that said it's not entirely unjustified, a single punch from a waifish women isn't as serious a case of assault as a single punch thrown by a heavily built man, now I'm not saying there isn't tough women out there just that statistically speaking men tend to have more muscle mass and culture reflects the generality, not the specific.

All in all I don't think men are being emasculated by society, I think the real issue is one of emotional/fiscal security, in the modern world things like infidelity are a lot less stigmatized and it's accepted that a young woman may go through several relationships before she settles down. This freedom for women isn't a bad thing but it puts guys under a lot more stress, if they want a secure relationship a guy has to go above and beyond to prove himself a better partner than whoever else might come along. This I think is where the feeling of emasculation comes from, for most guys there's no equality in relationships and this isn't women's fault or society's fault the simple fact of the matter is it's a buyer's market so to speak, there's a gender imbalance.

At least there is here in Australia, I can't remember the last time I saw an Indian woman but I meet Indian guys every day, and Chinese guys and Korean guys and Arabic guys and English and American guys and for fucksake people I'm not racist and I'm not against immigration but this is a problem.

I know a lot of guys who have outright told me they fake being in love because they know they're just placeholders, they can't imagine ever trusting someone enough to marry them, no matter how whipped you are that's where you have to draw the line because once you sign that form she owns half your stuff.

It's depressing, the guy I'm boarding with at the moment told me he doesn't see the point in trying anymore, he just finds happiness in other things (games mostly) and has resolved to be content with that.

Interesting to hear an Australian perspective. I agree with the bolded parts. The underlined parts I either disagreed with or didn't understand. It seems as if women can move up the ladder freely here in America. Their gender is not at all held against them, it's the opposite. The only reason why there are fewer female CEOs is because not many women are willing to sacrifice having children to work the longer hours necessary to reach the top posts.

I think marital laws in this country are entirely unjustified. 70% of all divorce proceedings are initiated by women. Now why would they do that? :confused: Oh, of course, it's the money.:rolleyes:

Lastly, I don't think men feel like they have to prove themselves better than the competition. I think that used to be the case, but now, they feel largely irrelevant. Single women outearn single men. Why get a high-paying job and put in the long hours at work to become a good provider if women make more than you do? What's the point? Those are rhetorical questions btw. There is less of a point in doing any of these things.

Throughout history both genders have participated equally in raising the children. Only when the factories became the main source of jobs the divide came around. Due to the heavy conditions men were more suitable for working there. Before that everyone had to participate in working the land.

As for the topic I've seen so many different explanations that I don't care about one. I think it's just one of many cultural shifts.

One explanation says that we've been pushing males to act like macho for so long that we've damaged them. Now they are finally cracking and can't take the pressure anymore, that's why they are acting like what we would perceive as feminine.

Different one: There is some evidence that hormonal anti-pregnancy pills affect the female brain and changes their preference for partners. So instead of a strong muscular man, women want an effeminate one. Popular culture is changing to reflect that and men are following to find women.

Another one - marketing. Companies are taking advantage of current social events and blowing them out of proportion to sell more products.

And of course feminism is evil and confuses women and that's why they are acting like men.

There should be more, but can't remember them right now.

Disagree with the underlined. Agree with the bold. Women have always been the ones raising the kids at home and generally working even harder than men in traditional societies. Right now, society is implicitly encouraging men to be more like women. I think that's what's causing the cracks, not too much machismo.


Apachehelicopteroplasty. I want one. Don't forget the chain gun under the chin.

I agree with East Asian women being more voluptuous, I definitely see that in Korea. The older generation always do seem to note that kids are bigger and more finely built these days, especially since after the Americans brought in milk and meat. But I don't think it's the opposite in America in a sense. There's plenty of 'voluptous' women there... maybe you're being a little to hard on women in your country ;) (or your region perhaps? I dunno) I think the whole feminism-aggressive thing was always there though. The lid on the can was merely just opened. As for Chinese men looking effeminate or whatever it's probably a cultural difference in how a 'masculine' male should look like. There are trends in styles too if you're talking about the more extreme cases. (e.g. like this little piece of horror)

I think to a certain point people's sense of sexuality are developed slower now (debatable though, I know), plus with the fact that we don't exercise out as often during development, especially females. This I think causes their features to pronounce slower; females hit their beauty prime around 25 from what I hear, but I feel it's getting pushed higher as the times go by. That's what it seems to be in asia, not sure how it is in the west these days.

And I think personally, since we're on the subject of feminism, that the whole feminism thing is just a meta-figure of a female young-adult 'whining about motherhood' kind of thing. well anyway I digress >.>

Bold is possible...underlined I don't really see. I barfed in my mouth watching that video. If anything I think people's sense of sexuality is developing more rapidly now with all those hormones in meat/milk. In Asia, women are more promiscuous than ever before.


Over several decades the trend is clear I think. Like many things in the developed world, it first showed up in Japan with the men becoming more feminized. It's become such a problem now because younger guys aren't interested in having families, or even having much sex. Major problem as Japan doesn't allow immigration.

In the US (and possibly Europe) we're following suit I think. Consider the 60's, women were women. Big bushes, hairy armpits and big boobs, the hippie chicks were all walking around having sex, and the men were muscular and hairy too.

Today, the women are all shaved off, with the ideal being some tiny bare small breasted nymph. The men (boys really) are pussies. Either wearing hoodies like an idiot, dressing like a dandy with some stupid hat (that meme is gone I think), or jeans and a t-shirt. Usually the guys are really lightly muscled too, or gone to fat.

If you look back to, say the late 1800's the distinction between men and women couldn't be more clear. Now, not so much. Don't know why the trend, probably our (your parents) fault.

The part about Japan, I've heard you speak of before, but I find it hard to believe that Japan was the pioneer in all of this. Why do you think the men became more feminized in Japan and when did this all start? The bolded parts strike me as true. All the famous new actresses in Hollywood these days don't look at all like sex symbols of the past.

Men and women really did dress and act differently in the 1800s. Now it seems they wear very similar clothes. Jeans/t-shirts.
 

The Gopher

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No I do mean "effeminate." It's most striking when I see American men and women interacting together. The woman stays herself i.e. her manner of speaking/personality doesn't seem to change much, whereas the man frequently mirrors the woman. Voice pitch seems to increase, so does tempo. Use of vocabulary such as "like" "totally" "ohmygod" "me too." Particularly prevalent among high school and college-aged men. It's almost as if they feel that women are in control of the current social hierarchy and so they try to imitate them to fit in and be accepted. It reeks of fear. I don't think men in the past would ever have done this. Frankly, I don't think women want them to act this way either. If anything, I think women are much more attracted to men who aren't afraid of being themselves, even if who they are is not highly esteemed by others.

Oh that's just mirroring, now you could make a case that it's done to fit in out of fear but it's quite normal and done by most non-autistic people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirroring_(psychology)

I'm not sure if that link explains it well but it's fairly normal.
 

Rualani

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I agree that there is a certain fear among males about how to act. I don't agree with the arguments going around, that men are afraid to be men. But, I do think there is a fear about being oneself when it comes to mating strategies for men. I swear this isn't a contradiction. Men are just becoming more afraid due to reasons that I will explain.

1. I would blame a lack of societal models for men expressing their desire or "neediness" appropriately, because men don't experience that, obviously. Females don't respond very well the the overflowing neediness, when it finally does flow out of your chest, like some incubating aliens ecstatic birth.

2. Lots of people want to tear down the cultural fictions around gender. That's all fine and dandy, but this is a situation where the appropriate way to tear it down, was by putting something in its place. This didn't happen.

3. Politics. People care about gender, ergo certain political parties capitalize on that. If you have strong opinions on this topic, could you, at least, check that they are your own.

4. Gender politics. People used to use the internet to gain clues about this sort of thing, until gender politics happened. Now an army of bloggers, click-bait, and youtubers want to tell you how to gender. Now anyone who thought the internet could, at least, yield some clues on this issue are doomed. Yes, I am dooming myself in this thread.

5. I kind of think that hippie women with giant bushes fucking around sounds fun. I think the mating strategy part of it was probably a nightmare. If it's not... I'm jelly.
 

Architect

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The part about Japan, I've heard you speak of before, but I find it hard to believe that Japan was the pioneer in all of this.

I don't know whether you want to characterize it as pioneer or not, but the pattern I've seen is that Japan consistently leads us across the board. Aging population, check. Housing bubble, check. Deflation, check. And so forth. Why? Don't know.

Why do you think the men became more feminized in Japan and when did this all start?

I don't have any theories on why this is, there are already plenty of talking heads with them. The only interesting observation is that it's a common theme in Sci Fi novels that in the future the genders will become more neutral. Probably an extrapolation, as I indicated the genders have been doing this for millennia.

All the famous new actresses in Hollywood these days don't look at all like sex symbols of the past. Men and women really did dress and act differently in the 1800s. Now it seems they wear very similar clothes. Jeans/t-shirts.

So true. I'm watching a John Wayne film placed in the 1800's, any confusion over who is male and who female here?

[BIMG]https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/98/81/98/988198ded49bb6bc71d5789ffc32be95.jpg[/BIMG]​

This persisted until the 1960's, so I'll blame it on the feminists, just to piss them off if for no other reason. I think that feminism started from a good premise (equal rights), but has gone too far (by promoting equality == similarity).
 

Inquisitor

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kora

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Lol thus thread is funny, OMG MEN ARE BECOMING UNNATRACTIVE AND EFFEMINATE WOMEN WILL NEVER FUCK THEM AGAIN. don't worry everyone, people will always want sex, that impulse goes too damn deep, though how they want it might change a bit. Yes men will stop being domineering and women will stop being Submissive and people will be more equal on a general level, this will end lots of gender abuse that goes on and eliminate many flaws in society on a general level. It'll be good for men too, they wont be told they're pussies or little girls for showing sensitivity and care by assholes in high school, and well rounded individuals of both sexes will be considered attractive. What's anyone fucking complaining about is what I would like to understand. Does any of this good shit get on your nerves? Women will be less financially dependant on men also which leaves more room for actual lovin' instead of neediness and insecurity.

"But.. But... I want to assert my dick power on damsels in distress! Otherwise it's just not sexy anymore :-( oh noz I'm just not important, my precious gender roles! "

Vaginas will not dominate lol, equality is what's going to happen. And also feminism is definitely still needed, it's going to be needed right up until women are more or less equally represented in politics and top jobs, and Saudi Arabia and India sorts it's shit out, and yes housework will be better divided, equal paternity leave (I don't understand how this is not a thing yet) and that we stop brainwashing girls into being obsessed with their appearance and vain and dependant on the guys watching them and men are taught that women's value is not overwhelmingly their sexy ass and tits with simplistic media views.

So yeah in short... Nicer men and more assertive women :-D


@architect spontaneously, my personal theory on Japan if what you're saying is true is that overpopulation is somehow making people desire to reproduce less, same thing happens with rats if you leave them in an overcrowded space I think, more homosexuality and asexuality, this is also a good thing as overpopulation is a genuine worry, you should be glad some are opting out of sex and family life, what does it matter as long as they're happy + productive members of society?
 

onesteptwostep

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I don't know whether you want to characterize it as pioneer or not, but the pattern I've seen is that Japan consistently leads us across the board. Aging population, check. Housing bubble, check. Deflation, check. And so forth. Why? Don't know.

I don't have any theories on why this is, there are already plenty of talking heads with them. The only interesting observation is that it's a common theme in Sci Fi novels that in the future the genders will become more neutral. Probably an extrapolation, as I indicated the genders have been doing this for millennia.

Theories? I'll give it a try, they're mostly geared towards Japan though:

- demystification of sex: rise of pornography, no cultural backlash against
- a loss of a sense of purpose and direction [no meta-narrative of life] (no more emperor serving as shinto god, loss of national identity, MacArthur constitution- (they thought they were the ones who would 'unify' east asia) completion of development/modernity)
- urbanization and capitalist lifestyle: overload in the market- inability to make match due to saturated views/expectations and/or lack of resources
- cost and strain of maintaining a family- not enough incentive, rooted in atheism edit: actually I think I should say irreligion rather than atheism
 

Architect

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Theories? I'll give it a try, they're mostly geared towards Japan though:

- demystification of sex: rise of pornography, no cultural backlash against
- a loss of a sense of purpose and direction [no meta-narrative of life] (no more emperor serving as shinto god, loss of national identity, MacArthur constitution- (they thought they were the ones who would 'unify' east asia) completion of development/modernity)
- urbanization and capitalist lifestyle: overload in the market- inability to make match due to saturated views/expectations and/or lack of resources
- cost and strain of maintaining a family- not enough incentive, rooted in atheism

Yeah all of those ideas have been floated AFAIK.
 

OmoInisa

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True...but how come I don't see this happening the other way around? i.e. women mirroring men?
Precisely because gender roles have not gone anywhere. The guy mirrors the girl because he's generally the pursuer. The pursuer is generally more interested in the pursued than the reverse. He stands a better chance of forming a connection if he mirrors her.
 

Jennywocky

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True...but how come I don't see this happening the other way around? i.e. women mirroring men?

So your issue is that young guys are using what you've decided are female speaking patterns and female phrases ("omigod") and to you it "reeks" of fear and you think everything is going down the tubes because it confuses you? is there more to it, or is that what you can articulate at this time?

Are you in that age bracket yourself? So that that's the only kind of thing you've been exposed to, and you haven't been exposed to society before that point except through old movies and such?

Western society in general has been relaxing greatly since the 60's, moving away from paternalism towards egalitarianism. It's not there yet, but the rigid roles of how "men and women are supposed to behave" have been eroding. You seem to view this as a negative; considering what I know of paternalistic cultures, to me it's a positive in some ways, but we'll see if it lodges somewhere in the middle eventually versus favoring one or the other.

What do you think women were doing before all this? Basically confined to the "female bracket" where you're supposed to conform to a lot of male expectations for what a woman is, where you're essentially toothless and harmless and unchallenging, or if you crossed the boundaries you were viewed as a male and had your female-ness stripped away from you. (Hence, "tomboys" at best.)

As a side note, one of my big gripes with society today, after FINALLY seeing progress in terms of sexism and racism, is now all the responses of the former class that held all the privilege... they feel their privilege slipping away and now make themselves out to some kind of victim, when the system itself is just stabilizing in a more equal position. Do you realize how long a certain demographic held western society in thrall to itself? What they feel now is what all the minority classes felt ALL of the time in society. Welcome to not being the person in charge. Welcome to change. Change might create fear of the unknown, but it beats the certainty of being stuck in a particular caste/social group that you can't escape from.

[And did I really now just have to sound like an extreme liberal just to state a simple perspective that should be obvious from a big picture perspective? That annoys me. I'm not much for the SJWs.]
 
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