Gender neutral pronoun in English

[walfin]

I don't know if this has been discussed before in these parts (if so then merge this, it's certainly not a new problem but I'm just pissed after using he/she again in another post), but...
I HATE THE LACK OF A GENDER NEUTRAL PRONOUN IN ENGLISH!!!

He/she or even S/he (though the latter is a little more space efficient) is a fricking awkward kludge. And worse, it requires order. There's no way to superimpose he and she together (and still keep the word legible). And order connotes stupid shit like superiority, precedence, et al.

At least Esperanto has the ri-ism movement (to use ri in gender neutral situations). And in classical Esperanto at least gxi (or sometimes tiu) can be used as a gender neutral pronoun, but "it" in English is definitely neuter. "That" and "this" have definite meanings and can't be used as gender neutral personal pronouns either. Using he throughout is just...wrong. Even with some bullshit gender neutral preamble (like in the interpretation sections of some countries' statutes).

GRRR! Does anyone else hate this? Should we start using invented gender neutral pronouns like "co" (according to wikipedia)?

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

I don't know which one to vote... it already exists! Granted, it's not really common-use. Your third option should be: Hot dogs without buns.

http://discordia.loveshade.org/ek-sen-trik-kuh/whoise.html

• e (pronounced the same as letter 'e;' rhymes with 'she' and 'he'): Used instead of 'she' or 'he.' A person.
  Example: E went to the store and bought a pineapple.
  
  
• es (rhymes with 'his,' or, if you like, with 'eez'): Used instead of 'her' or 'his' as a possessor or agent.
  Example: On the way home, some enemies tried to steal es
  pineapple.
  
  
• es (as above): Substitute for 'his' or 'hers' for that which belongs to him or her.
  Example: Who were these foes of es?
  
  
• em (rhymes with 'him' or 'm'): Substitute for 'her' or 'him;' pronoun objective case.
  Example: They were The Agents of Greyface. When they tried to take es pineapple from em, e hit them with five tons of flax.
  
  
• emself (rhymes with 'himself,' or with the letter 'm' and 'self'): Substitute for herself or himself; used reflexively, in absolute constructions and for emphasis.
  Examples: Did e throw the five tons all by emself? No, fool, e didn*t do it emself; e had help from a strong head wind.

You gotta love Discordians. Hail Eris!

 

[Fedayeen]

there is...or used to be.

Thou

 

[JoeJoe]

I just noticed, that the problem with the e and es and all that is, that you leave out the h at the beginning of other words as well, at least while reading.

But I'll use them.

 

[walfin]

I just noticed, that the problem with the e and es and all that is, that you leave out the h at the beginning of other words as well, at least while reading.

Well if you ever go to London the Cockneys'd think you're one of 'em . (that's another problem with "em").

 

[Xel]

I do... think of all the new shades of meaning that could be developed and articulated.
How about... "se" as in "Se was walking down the street"?

 

[snowqueen]

A lot of people now use 'they' and 'themselves'

in writing I like s.he

 

[Latro]

Or we could just stop needing personal pronouns for sentences to make sense altogether and save ourselves a whole bunch of time and breath...

(This would be achieved by speaking in Latin, for reference.)

Incidentally, Futurama came up with a pronoun pronounced roughly as "schklee" in describing the gender-neutral entity Yivo.

 

[Kuu]

I really don't care much about the issue, but it has been discussed before in this very forum, and some of the old timers here begun to use ze (he/she) and hir (him/her), if I remember correctly, due to Waterstiller's suggestion.

 

[Beat Mango]

A lot of people now use 'they' and 'themselves'

Yeah I do that, eg, "if a person wants to do something, they have to get it done it themselves". It comes up as a grammatical error on Microsoft Word but I like it.

 

[Artifice Orisit]

I use "hir" when making a specifically gender neutral argument and "him/her" in situations that require me to be specifically indefinite.

But the proliferation of a universally vague pronoun is something I am against, simply because people are lazy and thus are likely use it exclusively, irresponsibly.

Edit: And agreeing with someone is just boring.

 

[Waterstiller]

I use "hir" when making a specifically gender neutral argument and "him/her" in situations that require me to be specifically indefinite.

I use "hir" and "ze", personally.

I'd be willing to have an official neutral pronoun and not care what it is as long as it's not *too* stupid. More of my friends are starting to go by them. Genderqueer/pangender identities are gaining popularity.

 

[Zero]

IF
THERE
WAS
A
GENDER
NEUTRAL
PRONOUN
IN
ENGLISH
MY
LIFE
WOULD
BE
COMPLETE

(It's complicated, though ironically it does have to do with Jung's other theories.)

I use he/she or "he" as an understood subject of authority and humanity as opposed to using "she" which can carry object, metaphoric and sentimental aspects, as seen in literature.
I will occasionally use "it" in regards to certain characters. I obviously do not use "it" towards real people.

I can't stand using made up words.
​

 

[Latro]

I can't stand using made up words.

This gives me an interesting tangential idea:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity
(mostly the aspect of the Whorf hypothesis which claims that language informs thought, not vice versa).

Personally, I kinda see this notion as a load of crap. It seems to me that language was just a tool that we came up with, which, once created at a basic level (grunting in a certain manner to tell your comrades to throw their spears at the mammoth, for instance), may have begun to, with a life of its own, inform our thoughts. (In other words, with words available to us for communication, words then became available to us for thought, which caused our thinking patterns to become partially or entirely verbal, which in turn expanded communication, generating a vicious cycle; at least this is how I interpret it). First, however, I think we had to come up with it for some basic pragmatic need (most likely, being able to successfully hunt down animals much larger, physically stronger, and/or faster than us).

Thoughts?

 

[Jesin]

I can't stand using made up words.

What other kinds are there?

As long as you know everyone in your audience understands you, it shouldn't be too much of a problem. That's why I can be totally comfortable using words like "phlebotinum", depending on the context.

 

[Zero]

If it's not in the dictionary I find it problematic. It's the fact that if I write hir and someone is trying to figure out what that word means they can't. Or if it distracts from what I'm writing or hurts the clarity.

I also have a slight hang up over the fact that it's "hir" which looks like it's pronounced like "her" and it makes this a differentiation related to the social deviation, hard to undersatnd female as opposed to the definite male. The male who socially definite and not socially constructed.

 

[severus]

Singular "they" is grammatically correct! Although in writing I use "hir" and "ze."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

 

[Zero]

It's kind of annoying to use "they" constantly. I kind of have to use it, if I refuse to use hir or ze.

 

[Decaf]

We should all just learn Lojban and be done with it. English is so archaic and would never be suitable for communication during the early stages of human/robot cohabitation.

 

[Zero]

Lojban? I've been thinking Esperanto, but I haven't heard of Lojban.

 

[Decaf]

Lojban? I've been thinking Esperanto, but I haven't heard of Lojban.

Lojban is a modern iteration of Loglan (Logic Language) that bases its syntax on the form of a logical argument. Basically a normal sentence would be in the form of one of our heavily qualified English ones. The difference would be that the language was designed for it and that sentence could be a short, far less cumbersome one.

The differences of note between the two languages arise from two criticisms of Esperanto. One, it claims to be an international language, but is highly Indo-European derived to the exclusion of Sino-Tibetan languages (like Mandarin). Second, Esperanto uses masculine and feminine articles for everything, similarly to many romantic languages.

Lojban is completely gender neutral, treating gender assignments like adjectives and deriving its lexicon from all the major language groups.


So you might ask, am I a salesman of Lojban? No, I'm an INTP (they are mutually exclusive in my opinion). Can I speak it? No, sadly, but I always planned on learning

 

[fullerene]

 

[fullerene]

 

[Kuu]

Great, now all my rantings are gone

 

[Zero]

I'm learning Japanese. I mean I've technically completed a year of Japanese in college.

 

[Anling]

I replied before, but it got eaten.

Anyway, I suggested that one is already used as a gender neutral pronoun. I'm not sure how widespread it is, but I've definitely seen it more than once.

Also, 'it' is avoided for refering to people because it implies that the person is a thing and not a person.

Lojban just became more interesting to me as a conlang. One more thing to research then.

 

[walfin]

Second, Esperanto uses masculine and feminine articles for everything

Jes, Esperanto ne vere estas la plej facila lingvo en la mondo. Gxi foje ridindas:
Mondino - Kio estas tio?
Lingvino - Esperantino ekzistas? ()

Sed ankoraux, "gxi" uzeblas por sekso neuxtrala pronomo por homoj, "it" en Anglo malsamas.

Pardonas mi por mian malbonan gramatikon. Mi malgrande trompis, uzis Esperanta-Anglan vortaron.

Anybody here tried solresol?

 

[Seducer of the Homeless]

Sed ankoraux, "gxi" uzeblas por sekso neuxtrala pronomo por homoj, "it" en Anglo malsamas.

LOL

 

[walfin]

Oh OK. I understand the "soth" thing now.

grep, sed, cat.