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Fundamentals of Woke: Immigration

Cognisant

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So you know how there's riots happening in the UK after a bunch of children were stabbed and there's a lot of talk about "two-tier" policing? The way to understand this is that in woke ideology there are no distinctions, everyone's the same, regardless of race, culture, religion, gender, whatever.

Npc-crowd-meme-8.jpg

People are just people, their differences are entirely superficial, the woke celebrate "diversity" (again the woke like to redefine words) but they expect everyone to be compatible and more or less share the woke beliefs, values, morals, etc.

Accordingly they understand crime as a consequence of cultural differences, as actually a consequence of oppression, they adamantly refuse to consider that their presumption that everyone is an interchangeable economic unit might be wrong.

So if you confront them about this, that makes you worse than the criminals, because you're a bigot, and bigots are the source of oppression, so rather than make things worse by further persecuting the oppressed they believe it is more productive to focus on suppressing the bigotry. Assuming that once the bigots are out of the way the immigrants will calm down.
 

Puffy

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I've tried reading your OP a few times but I'm not sure I understand your main point in reference to the UK riots so you might need to clarify for me.

As far as I can tell in this situation immigrants have done nothing wrong except migrate into the country and haven't incited the violence. They're the object of antagonism from a certain portion of the UK population for a variety of reasons including:

* Overcrowding - we're a small island with a population of 67 million so many people believe we're letting too many immigrants into the country and it's a contentious issue
* Economic difficulties - a lot of the country are struggling and unemployed and feel frustrated seeing asylum seekers come into the country and be housed
* National identity - a lot of people feel that our national identity has been diluted for the sake of inclusion of what's seen as more and more people from other countries

What's inciting the protests is mainly the issue of immigration. Not all the protestors are racists and it'd be unfair to characterise everyone whose against the levels of immigration in the UK as a racist or bigot.

Unfortunately far-right racists do exist within the mix who are whipping up the mob, some of the attacks are racially motivated targeting buildings like Mosques. Those who are are bigots are on that basis. Some protestors have initiated violence though, not immigrants.

Is your point that you feel right wing protestors are being punished unfairly or receiving more heavy handed punishment than left wing protestors? For what it's worth, I think the UK government is making a mistake in characterising all the protestors as racist thugs and I think this will bite them in the ass as it'll mean more voters will feel estranged from the UK government and turn to the Reform party for salvation.
 

Old Things

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The worst part of the immigrants is that they tend to rape women and girls at a much higher rate than natives.
 

Puffy

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The worst part of the immigrants is that they tend to rape women and girls at a much higher rate than natives.
The person suspected for the Southport murders is a white UK citizen, not someone of immigrant status.

Perception that it was committed by a immigrant has played a role in the riots, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are people who share this same belief as you, but in this case it is likely misinformation.
 

Old Things

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The worst part of the immigrants is that they tend to rape women and girls at a much higher rate than natives.
The person suspected for the Southport murders is a white UK citizen, not someone of immigrant status.

Perception that it was committed by a immigrant has played a role in the riots, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are people who share this same belief as you, but in this case it is likely misinformation.

I already knew that and that is not what I am talking about.
 

Puffy

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The worst part of the immigrants is that they tend to rape women and girls at a much higher rate than natives.
The person suspected for the Southport murders is a white UK citizen, not someone of immigrant status.

Perception that it was committed by a immigrant has played a role in the riots, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are people who share this same belief as you, but in this case it is likely misinformation.

I already knew that and that is not what I am talking about.
Without having time to dig into the research it's based on in more detail, I'd at least conclude from this article that it's likely not as conclusive as what you're saying: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime#:~:text=Most studies show that immigration,preventing terrorism is rather limited.

I'm not sure this is the main issue with immigration in the UK though tbh, we're pretty good on violent crime comparatively with other first world countries. I think it's more likely that this incident has become a trigger-point for other issues and frustrations around immigration to surface.
 

Old Things

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The worst part of the immigrants is that they tend to rape women and girls at a much higher rate than natives.
The person suspected for the Southport murders is a white UK citizen, not someone of immigrant status.

Perception that it was committed by a immigrant has played a role in the riots, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are people who share this same belief as you, but in this case it is likely misinformation.

I already knew that and that is not what I am talking about.
Without having time to dig into the research it's based on in more detail, I'd at least conclude from this article that it's likely not as conclusive as what you're saying: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime#:~:text=Most studies show that immigration,preventing terrorism is rather limited.

I'm not sure this is the main issue with immigration in the UK though tbh, we're pretty good on violent crime comparatively with other first world countries. I think it's more likely that this incident has become a trigger-point for other issues and frustrations around immigration to surface.

The problem is exacerbated because the government treats its citizens one way and immigrants another way. I can't tell you how many times I have seen comparisons of a native UK person getting more jail time for a "mean tweet" than an immigrant who actually raped someone. It's not hard to find this stuff, but the media does cover a lot of it up.
 

Puffy

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The worst part of the immigrants is that they tend to rape women and girls at a much higher rate than natives.
The person suspected for the Southport murders is a white UK citizen, not someone of immigrant status.

Perception that it was committed by a immigrant has played a role in the riots, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are people who share this same belief as you, but in this case it is likely misinformation.

I already knew that and that is not what I am talking about.
Without having time to dig into the research it's based on in more detail, I'd at least conclude from this article that it's likely not as conclusive as what you're saying: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime#:~:text=Most studies show that immigration,preventing terrorism is rather limited.

I'm not sure this is the main issue with immigration in the UK though tbh, we're pretty good on violent crime comparatively with other first world countries. I think it's more likely that this incident has become a trigger-point for other issues and frustrations around immigration to surface.

The problem is exacerbated because the government treats its citizens one way and immigrants another way. I can't tell you how many times I have seen comparisons of a native UK person getting more jail time for a "mean tweet" than an immigrant who actually raped someone. It's not hard to find this stuff, but the media does cover a lot of it up.

I haven't heard of the cases you're referring to so I'm not sure if I can comment.

If that's true though, like what I was saying with Cog I think it will turn around and bite the UK government in the ass eventually. Around 75-80% of the UK population are white British, if voters feel estranged by the government's actions in scenarios like this they will likely just turn to the Reform party as an alternative.
 

Old Things

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The worst part of the immigrants is that they tend to rape women and girls at a much higher rate than natives.
The person suspected for the Southport murders is a white UK citizen, not someone of immigrant status.

Perception that it was committed by a immigrant has played a role in the riots, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are people who share this same belief as you, but in this case it is likely misinformation.

I already knew that and that is not what I am talking about.
Without having time to dig into the research it's based on in more detail, I'd at least conclude from this article that it's likely not as conclusive as what you're saying: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime#:~:text=Most studies show that immigration,preventing terrorism is rather limited.

I'm not sure this is the main issue with immigration in the UK though tbh, we're pretty good on violent crime comparatively with other first world countries. I think it's more likely that this incident has become a trigger-point for other issues and frustrations around immigration to surface.

The problem is exacerbated because the government treats its citizens one way and immigrants another way. I can't tell you how many times I have seen comparisons of a native UK person getting more jail time for a "mean tweet" than an immigrant who actually raped someone. It's not hard to find this stuff, but the media does cover a lot of it up.

I haven't heard of the cases you're referring to so I'm not sure if I can comment.

If that's true though, like what I was saying with Cog I think it will turn around and bite the UK government in the ass eventually. Around 75-80% of the UK population are white British, if voters feel estranged by the government's actions in scenarios like this they will likely just turn to the Reform party as an alternative.

And now, I am thankful that we have the freedom to talk about this stuff on this site, INTP forum. Because I am reminded that I was on Personality Cafe and I made a post saying that Kamala Harris was a Communist and the thread was scrubbed from the site. There was no dialog with me, there was no asking me what my intentions were. They simply removed the thread and all the comments.

In some places, there is not a free marketplace of ideas. And the government-run media simply lies through their teeth about stuff. That is why it is hard for you to find. Because they don't want you to find it. Go to X. They actually have a free marketplace of ideas there. In fact, Elon Musk is pretty hated by the big media sites because they think he is some sort of free-speech extremist. He simply wants people to be able to talk about what they want to without being censored.
 

Old Things

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Black Rose

An unbreakable bond
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The UK is in Europe, Censorship is the norm.

I heard long ago that people were arrested for mean tweets and regular internet activities.
 

Old Things

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The UK is in Europe, Censorship is the norm.

I heard long ago that people were arrested for mean tweets and regular internet activities.

That's one of the most reasonable things I have heard you say.

What sucks is that some people on this forum who are from the UK can't comment on stuff like this because it could be a danger to them if they get caught questioning the government.
 

Puffy

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The UK is in Europe, Censorship is the norm.

I heard long ago that people were arrested for mean tweets and regular internet activities.
The worst part of the immigrants is that they tend to rape women and girls at a much higher rate than natives.
The person suspected for the Southport murders is a white UK citizen, not someone of immigrant status.

Perception that it was committed by a immigrant has played a role in the riots, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are people who share this same belief as you, but in this case it is likely misinformation.

I already knew that and that is not what I am talking about.
Without having time to dig into the research it's based on in more detail, I'd at least conclude from this article that it's likely not as conclusive as what you're saying: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime#:~:text=Most studies show that immigration,preventing terrorism is rather limited.

I'm not sure this is the main issue with immigration in the UK though tbh, we're pretty good on violent crime comparatively with other first world countries. I think it's more likely that this incident has become a trigger-point for other issues and frustrations around immigration to surface.

The problem is exacerbated because the government treats its citizens one way and immigrants another way. I can't tell you how many times I have seen comparisons of a native UK person getting more jail time for a "mean tweet" than an immigrant who actually raped someone. It's not hard to find this stuff, but the media does cover a lot of it up.

I haven't heard of the cases you're referring to so I'm not sure if I can comment.

If that's true though, like what I was saying with Cog I think it will turn around and bite the UK government in the ass eventually. Around 75-80% of the UK population are white British, if voters feel estranged by the government's actions in scenarios like this they will likely just turn to the Reform party as an alternative.

And now, I am thankful that we have the freedom to talk about this stuff on this site, INTP forum. Because I am reminded that I was on Personality Cafe and I made a post saying that Kamala Harris was a Communist and the thread was scrubbed from the site. There was no dialog with me, there was no asking me what my intentions were. They simply removed the thread and all the comments.

In some places, there is not a free marketplace of ideas. And the government-run media simply lies through their teeth about stuff. That is why it is hard for you to find. Because they don't want you to find it. Go to X. They actually have a free marketplace of ideas there. In fact, Elon Musk is pretty hated by the big media sites because they think he is some sort of free-speech extremist. He simply wants people to be able to talk about what they want to without being censored.

I've looked a little into it. So what I understand is that in 2003 under the Communications act malicious communications using social media was made a criminal offence. A freedom of information request was made to know how many prosecutions there have been under this act and there's approximately 1k prosecutions per year from 2020-22.

It's for crimes that existed prior to the invention of social media: incitement, threat of violence, hate crimes, stalking, etc. They've been crimes in the UK for a long time prior to the invention of social media so nothing new there.

My immediate impression is I'm not too concerned about this as the stats don't seem significant enough to make me worried that this law is being abused in any big way. Most recent examples in the news are of people being arrested for planning and inciting violence over social media during the recent riots, which seems like a criminal offence to me.

Feel free to share with me specific cases you're concerned about if I haven't covered what you were thinking of.
 

Old Things

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Here's a case you can comment on, or not, to protect your safety.

 

Puffy

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Here's a case you can comment on, or not, to protect your safety.

From what I can see this is in relation to inciting violence and racial hatred during the recent riots. It isn't an underground story that the media is silencing. Here's a local story on it and one by the BBC which is a leading source of news in the UK. It indicates that this person pleaded guilty.

He wasn't sentenced for one social media post but for multiple including ones where he was sharing the locations of known riots. Within that context, his posts could be seen as inciting racial violence and that's what he pleaded guilty to and was sentenced for.

My personal opinion is that he seems to acknowledge and know he did something wrong. The sentence seems harsh and was probably given to set an example to deter others from similar crimes, I guess a modern day equivalent of the "stoning" conversation you were having with kora recently.
 

Old Things

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Here's a case you can comment on, or not, to protect your safety.

From what I can see this is in relation to inciting violence and racial hatred during the recent riots. It isn't an underground story that the media is silencing. Here's a local story on it and one by the BBC which is a leading source of news in the UK. It indicates that this person pleaded guilty.

He wasn't sentenced for one social media post but for multiple including ones where he was sharing the locations of known riots. Within that context, his posts could be seen as inciting racial violence and that's what he pleaded guilty to and was sentenced for.

My personal opinion is that he seems to acknowledge and know he did something wrong. The sentence seems harsh and was probably given to set an example to deter others from similar crimes, I guess a modern day equivalent of the "stoning" conversation you were having with kora recently.

Thanks for that added context. That was not talked about in the tweet.

However, it is disturbing sometimes how a social media post gets a stronger sentence than a rape sentence.
 

Puffy

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Here's a case you can comment on, or not, to protect your safety.

From what I can see this is in relation to inciting violence and racial hatred during the recent riots. It isn't an underground story that the media is silencing. Here's a local story on it and one by the BBC which is a leading source of news in the UK. It indicates that this person pleaded guilty.

He wasn't sentenced for one social media post but for multiple including ones where he was sharing the locations of known riots. Within that context, his posts could be seen as inciting racial violence and that's what he pleaded guilty to and was sentenced for.

My personal opinion is that he seems to acknowledge and know he did something wrong. The sentence seems harsh and was probably given to set an example to deter others from similar crimes, I guess a modern day equivalent of the "stoning" conversation you were having with kora recently.

Thanks for that added context. That was not talked about in the tweet.

However, it is disturbing sometimes how a social media post gets a stronger sentence than a rape sentence.

No worries, I agree that rape is a more serious crime. Technically the minimum sentence for rape in the UK is 4-19 years, but I feel the underlying gist of what you're saying is that it's a harsh sentence for a social media post and I agree.

My personal opinion is that I don't think it would be this harsh in different circumstances. The riots are the biggest riots we've had in the UK since the 1980s. I imagine the judge was trying to set an example here to deter others from similar crimes and further violence happening.
 

Old Things

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Here's a case you can comment on, or not, to protect your safety.

From what I can see this is in relation to inciting violence and racial hatred during the recent riots. It isn't an underground story that the media is silencing. Here's a local story on it and one by the BBC which is a leading source of news in the UK. It indicates that this person pleaded guilty.

He wasn't sentenced for one social media post but for multiple including ones where he was sharing the locations of known riots. Within that context, his posts could be seen as inciting racial violence and that's what he pleaded guilty to and was sentenced for.

My personal opinion is that he seems to acknowledge and know he did something wrong. The sentence seems harsh and was probably given to set an example to deter others from similar crimes, I guess a modern day equivalent of the "stoning" conversation you were having with kora recently.

Thanks for that added context. That was not talked about in the tweet.

However, it is disturbing sometimes how a social media post gets a stronger sentence than a rape sentence.

No worries, I agree that rape is a more serious crime. Technically the minimum sentence for rape in the UK is 4-19 years which is more than his sentence, but I feel the underlying gist of what you're saying is that it's a harsh sentence for a social media post and I agree.

My personal opinion is that I don't think it would be this harsh in different circumstances. The riots are the biggest riots we've had in the UK since the 1980s. I imagine the judge was trying to set an example here to deter others from similar crimes and further violence happening.

That might be the given sentence for rape, but some people get off with community service, which is nuts.
 

Puffy

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Here's a case you can comment on, or not, to protect your safety.

From what I can see this is in relation to inciting violence and racial hatred during the recent riots. It isn't an underground story that the media is silencing. Here's a local story on it and one by the BBC which is a leading source of news in the UK. It indicates that this person pleaded guilty.

He wasn't sentenced for one social media post but for multiple including ones where he was sharing the locations of known riots. Within that context, his posts could be seen as inciting racial violence and that's what he pleaded guilty to and was sentenced for.

My personal opinion is that he seems to acknowledge and know he did something wrong. The sentence seems harsh and was probably given to set an example to deter others from similar crimes, I guess a modern day equivalent of the "stoning" conversation you were having with kora recently.

Thanks for that added context. That was not talked about in the tweet.

However, it is disturbing sometimes how a social media post gets a stronger sentence than a rape sentence.

No worries, I agree that rape is a more serious crime. Technically the minimum sentence for rape in the UK is 4-19 years which is more than his sentence, but I feel the underlying gist of what you're saying is that it's a harsh sentence for a social media post and I agree.

My personal opinion is that I don't think it would be this harsh in different circumstances. The riots are the biggest riots we've had in the UK since the 1980s. I imagine the judge was trying to set an example here to deter others from similar crimes and further violence happening.

That might be the given sentence for rape, but some people get off with community service, which is nuts.

Fair, I agree that rape is unacceptable and that people should be deterred from doing it, as it's traumatising and can cause life-long damage.
 

scorpiomover

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So you know how there's riots happening in the UK after a bunch of children were stabbed and there's a lot of talk about "two-tier" policing?
Yes.

The way to understand this is that in woke ideology there are no distinctions, everyone's the same, regardless of race, culture, religion, gender, whatever.

View attachment 8200
People are just people, their differences are entirely superficial, the woke celebrate "diversity" (again the woke like to redefine words) but they expect everyone to be compatible and more or less share the woke beliefs, values, morals, etc.
That's what the left-wing keep telling people, that people should treat other people the same.

But they clearly treat left-wing people differently to right-wing people, treat BIPOC people differently to white people, treat women differently to men, and treat LGBT differently to non-trans heterosexuals.

Accordingly they understand crime as a consequence of cultural differences, as actually a consequence of oppression, they adamantly refuse to consider that their presumption that everyone is an interchangeable economic unit might be wrong.
I disagree.

If a BIPOC commits violent crime, that is deemed to be a consequence of oppression of his ethnicity/race.
But if a woman commits violent crime, that is NOT deemed to be a consequence of oppression of her sex/gender.

They argue that common stereotypes of people that are popularly believed nowadays, are the result of generations of oppression, such as that the popular view of women being timid and submissive, is caused by male oppression, and the popular view of BIPOC as ignorant savages, is caused by male oppression, and they drive BIPOC crimes, crimes against BIPOC, and crimes against women.

But they do NOT argue that oppression drives women to commit violent crime, because that would be contrary to the popular stereotype of women.
 

scorpiomover

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I've tried reading your OP a few times but I'm not sure I understand your main point in reference to the UK riots so you might need to clarify for me.

As far as I can tell in this situation immigrants have done nothing wrong except migrate into the country and haven't incited the violence. They're the object of antagonism from a certain portion of the UK population for a variety of reasons including:

* Overcrowding - we're a small island with a population of 67 million so many people believe we're letting too many immigrants into the country and it's a contentious issue
* Economic difficulties - a lot of the country are struggling and unemployed and feel frustrated seeing asylum seekers come into the country and be housed
* National identity - a lot of people feel that our national identity has been diluted for the sake of inclusion of what's seen as more and more people from other countries
Those are all issues that middle-class left-wing people would identify with. But they're not the people at these protests.

What's inciting the protests is mainly the issue of immigration. Not all the protestors are racists and it'd be unfair to characterise everyone whose against the levels of immigration in the UK as a racist or bigot.
Yes. But that sounds very much like someone saying not all Nazis are evil. I don't think that most people would believe them. Do you?

Unfortunately far-right racists do exist within the mix who are whipping up the mob, some of the attacks are racially motivated targeting buildings like Mosques. Those who are are bigots are on that basis. Some protestors have initiated violence though, not immigrants.
Yes. But that ramps up fears about the Right-wing, which motivates more voters to vote for the Labour Party and for Labour councillors. Even you have to agree that that's kind of handy, if you like being an MP or a councillor.

Is your point that you feel right wing protestors are being punished unfairly or receiving more heavy handed punishment than left wing protestors? For what it's worth, I think the UK government is making a mistake in characterising all the protestors as racist thugs and I think this will bite them in the ass as it'll mean more voters will feel estranged from the UK government and turn to the Reform party for salvation.
Yes. But they're expecting that the majority will be so afraid of the violence, that they'll want the Left-wing to stop the Right-wingers being violent, so they'll support anything the Labour Party wants. Absolute power.

Who doesn't want more power? Think of what you could do if you have unlimited power to do whatever you want? Why, you could reshape the entirety of humanity and the world into your vision of a Utopia.
 

Puffy

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I've tried reading your OP a few times but I'm not sure I understand your main point in reference to the UK riots so you might need to clarify for me.

As far as I can tell in this situation immigrants have done nothing wrong except migrate into the country and haven't incited the violence. They're the object of antagonism from a certain portion of the UK population for a variety of reasons including:

* Overcrowding - we're a small island with a population of 67 million so many people believe we're letting too many immigrants into the country and it's a contentious issue
* Economic difficulties - a lot of the country are struggling and unemployed and feel frustrated seeing asylum seekers come into the country and be housed
* National identity - a lot of people feel that our national identity has been diluted for the sake of inclusion of what's seen as more and more people from other countries
Those are all issues that middle-class left-wing people would identify with. But they're not the people at these protests.

What's inciting the protests is mainly the issue of immigration. Not all the protestors are racists and it'd be unfair to characterise everyone whose against the levels of immigration in the UK as a racist or bigot.
Yes. But that sounds very much like someone saying not all Nazis are evil. I don't think that most people would believe them. Do you?

Unfortunately far-right racists do exist within the mix who are whipping up the mob, some of the attacks are racially motivated targeting buildings like Mosques. Those who are are bigots are on that basis. Some protestors have initiated violence though, not immigrants.
Yes. But that ramps up fears about the Right-wing, which motivates more voters to vote for the Labour Party and for Labour councillors. Even you have to agree that that's kind of handy, if you like being an MP or a councillor.

Is your point that you feel right wing protestors are being punished unfairly or receiving more heavy handed punishment than left wing protestors? For what it's worth, I think the UK government is making a mistake in characterising all the protestors as racist thugs and I think this will bite them in the ass as it'll mean more voters will feel estranged from the UK government and turn to the Reform party for salvation.
Yes. But they're expecting that the majority will be so afraid of the violence, that they'll want the Left-wing to stop the Right-wingers being violent, so they'll support anything the Labour Party wants. Absolute power.

Who doesn't want more power? Think of what you could do if you have unlimited power to do whatever you want? Why, you could reshape the entirety of humanity and the world into your vision of a Utopia.

I hope you're right. I'm not exactly a fan of the current Labour party, but it's much better than the Reform party.

You might be right that the demographics of those attending the protests/riots reflects a more extreme minority. I haven't attended any to know what the people are like who are joining on the ground. I'm partly thinking of the types of people I know and have met who are against the current levels of immigration in the UK, who voted for Brexit or Reform. A majority of people voted for Brexit in the UK and they're mostly normal people.
 

BurnedOut

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The problem with immigrants is that they are let in surges and then suddenly restrained by laws and are kept deliberately at the bottom rung of the socioeconomy by capitalists. Immigrants don't necessarily turn out to be any worse than the natives as you can see from many Chinese, Jews, etc who immigrated to the USA in the 1900s who naturalized and had a proper stake in the economy.

By far, fucking UK is atrocious because I have relatives working there in search of a 'white man's luxury' but are stuck to the filthiest and worst paying exploitative jobs with the government basically earning money left and right from waning and waxing VISA rates. Ironically the problem of immigrants' crime and uncouth presence is nothing but the folly of governments, capitalists and politicians who milk them in the name of diversity then imprison them in myriad laws always looking to make money. Fuck capitalists and fuck UK
 

Cognisant

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There's Indians at my workplace who earn more than I do, they didn't come to Australia looking for "white man's luxury" they're highly skilled software developers and IT security experts, they came ready to WORK.

That's some white man fuckery, poaching the best and brightest from India and putting them to work to make our country better so we can poach more of them, that's how it's done, and it shits me to know end that our leaders don't seem to understand this.

The problem with the UK is that they lowered their standards, they went for quantity over quality and in doing so they got the selfish, opportunistic and lazy Indians, the Indians they could lure over with promises of hand outs and easy jobs.

And now Australia is doing the same thing. Pisses me off soo much.

The worst part is the good Indians, the smart ones, the ones with talent and skill, they're stuck with being associated with the human garbage shitting in the street, and they're not, they're totally different and they don't deserve it.

It's like Australians who holiday in Bali, I'm sure the Balinese have a pretty piss poor opinion of us and rightly so, because the only Australians who go there are bogans.
 

scorpiomover

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I hope you're right.
I'm partly thinking of the types of people I know and have met who are against the current levels of immigration in the UK, who voted for Brexit or Reform. A majority of people voted for Brexit in the UK and they're mostly normal people.
I'm in agreement with you that most Brexiters are normal, rational, sane people, who were just voting for their country, because there are a lot of issues that need addressing and were not being addressed.

You might be right that the demographics of those attending the protests/riots reflects a more extreme minority.
I'd say theat a majority voted for Brexit. But given the heinous crimes involved in these killings, the protestors felt that voting for Brexit has not done enough to deal with the UK's issues.

So they are using the UK's power of Free Speech laws to protest, following the traditions of British people over the past 1,000 years, going back to those who fought for Magna Carta, who fought for Democracy in the English Civil War, the Tolpuddle Martyrs, those who fought for everyone to vote, and things like that.

People used to protest outside Parliament until action was taken. But it was made illegal to protest within 1 mile of Parliament, unless the protestors make a request to the police, and the Home Office is told the reasons for the protest, and approves the request.

In this case, the protests are probably not being held at Parliament, because the protestors involved clearly suspect that the government don't want to deal with these issues, and so would not approve such a protest outside Parliament.

So they're protesting this way, so moral, civic-minded people like you will wake up, realise how serious these matters are, and vote for a party that will address these issues.

I'm hoping that people will listen.

If these issues are not dealt with, then the evolutionary pressures are bound to build up, until the system is forced to correct itself. However, the greater the pressure, the more explosive it is when nature is forced to intervene.
 

Puffy

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I hope you're right.
I'm partly thinking of the types of people I know and have met who are against the current levels of immigration in the UK, who voted for Brexit or Reform. A majority of people voted for Brexit in the UK and they're mostly normal people.
I'm in agreement with you that most Brexiters are normal, rational, sane people, who were just voting for their country, because there are a lot of issues that need addressing and were not being addressed.

You might be right that the demographics of those attending the protests/riots reflects a more extreme minority.
I'd say theat a majority voted for Brexit. But given the heinous crimes involved in these killings, the protestors felt that voting for Brexit has not done enough to deal with the UK's issues.

So they are using the UK's power of Free Speech laws to protest, following the traditions of British people over the past 1,000 years, going back to those who fought for Magna Carta, who fought for Democracy in the English Civil War, the Tolpuddle Martyrs, those who fought for everyone to vote, and things like that.

People used to protest outside Parliament until action was taken. But it was made illegal to protest within 1 mile of Parliament, unless the protestors make a request to the police, and the Home Office is told the reasons for the protest, and approves the request.

In this case, the protests are probably not being held at Parliament, because the protestors involved clearly suspect that the government don't want to deal with these issues, and so would not approve such a protest outside Parliament.

So they're protesting this way, so moral, civic-minded people like you will wake up, realise how serious these matters are, and vote for a party that will address these issues.

I'm hoping that people will listen.

If these issues are not dealt with, then the evolutionary pressures are bound to build up, until the system is forced to correct itself. However, the greater the pressure, the more explosive it is when nature is forced to intervene.

Okay, apologies I'm not sure I understood what your stance was from your original response to me.

I haven't joined any of the protests myself but I know that people I knew from my hometown have who I wouldn't class as racists. I definitely believe there are extreme people out there doing extreme shit, I'm kind of just hesitant to judge everyone who's taking part in the protests by the most extreme examples without more information. As I know lots of normal people have voted Brexit/Reform and there can be a tendency to stereotype in the media.

In your own words, what do you see as the issues in the UK that the protestors want addressed? Which party do you think will address these issues?
 

scorpiomover

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Okay, apologies I'm not sure I understood what your stance was from your original response to me.
I try to not take stances.

I haven't joined any of the protests myself but I know that people I knew from my hometown have who I wouldn't class as racists. I definitely believe there are extreme people out there doing extreme shit, I'm kind of just hesitant to judge everyone who's taking part in the protests by the most extreme examples without more information. As I know lots of normal people have voted Brexit/Reform and there can be a tendency to stereotype in the media.

In your own words, what do you see as the issues in the UK that the protestors want addressed?
I've been struggling to compose an answer. But I wrote an answer to a similar question from a different poster on a different site, and I think it might suffice here as well:
Axel Muganwa Rudakubana's parents are from Rwanda. He was born in Cardiff in Wales.

He was arrested with three counts of murder, ten counts of attempted murder, and one count of possession of a bladed article. He killed 3 girls under 10 with a blade.

This is like the Bulgur twins, when 2 10-year-old white boys took a toddler, tortured him until he died, and then left his body on a train tracks, so a train would get blamed for his death. That also outraged the country. The boys were sent to prison "under her Majesty's pleasure", which potentially could have meant life in prison.

If he was white and his parents from the UK, he'd probably be sent to prison "under his Majesty's pleasure", and there would be no issue about it.

But it seems that the media are claiming that he's got ASD and mental health issues, and they sound as if he should be judged leniently. So given his family's ethnicity, and the fact that the media seem to want to get the police to go lenient on him, is making people think that he must be getting special treatment because of his family's ethnicity, in order to avoid being seen as racist for convicting someone whose parents are from Rwanda with a harsh sentence.

The sorts of people who are rioting are white working-class, not academics and graduates. They talk simply and practically. So when they want to say that they think that someone is getting special treatment because he is BIPOC and so many Western governments are bending over backwards to not appear racist, they say "Muslim" or "Asylum seeker", because that's a LOT shorter and simpler.

Of course, the middle-class people who went to university are going to complain that that doesn't make sense from an academic's POV. They'd say that a dog is a mammal, and not "man's best friend". They spend their time arguing about DEI, while African-Americans keep getting shot and killed by their own police.

Which party do you think will address these issues?
None.
Labour and the Tories know that whoever tackles these issues, is going to have to crack down on crime in poor, crime-ridden areas.

The Tories have traditionally under-invested in these areas, including policing, because they and their friends don't live there and don't go there.

The Tory solution to crime, is "If you don't want to deal with crime, don't live there. Earn lots of money and move to a nice, middle-class area, where that sort of thing doesn't happen."

Labour used to care about the people in these areas. But since they've switched to focus on minorities, they don't want to start cracking the whip on minorities that are in those areas, especially as many of their councillors and MPs are minorities that fear unprovoked physical attack from the police, for them, their families, and their friends and their friends' families, and for the people like them in their communities and across the country.

Labours is "We'll help minorities escape oppression and police brutality, by helping them earn more money, so they can afford to move to a nice, middle-class area, where that sort of thing doesn't happen."

They are both coming from different starting points. But their destinations are the same. Their commonality is that they both agree that the solution to the problems of anyone living in those areas, is to earn more money, become rich, and move to a nice, middle-class area where these sorts of issues don't exist.
 

Puffy

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Okay, apologies I'm not sure I understood what your stance was from your original response to me.
I try to not take stances.

I haven't joined any of the protests myself but I know that people I knew from my hometown have who I wouldn't class as racists. I definitely believe there are extreme people out there doing extreme shit, I'm kind of just hesitant to judge everyone who's taking part in the protests by the most extreme examples without more information. As I know lots of normal people have voted Brexit/Reform and there can be a tendency to stereotype in the media.

In your own words, what do you see as the issues in the UK that the protestors want addressed?
I've been struggling to compose an answer. But I wrote an answer to a similar question from a different poster on a different site, and I think it might suffice here as well:
Axel Muganwa Rudakubana's parents are from Rwanda. He was born in Cardiff in Wales.

He was arrested with three counts of murder, ten counts of attempted murder, and one count of possession of a bladed article. He killed 3 girls under 10 with a blade.

This is like the Bulgur twins, when 2 10-year-old white boys took a toddler, tortured him until he died, and then left his body on a train tracks, so a train would get blamed for his death. That also outraged the country. The boys were sent to prison "under her Majesty's pleasure", which potentially could have meant life in prison.

If he was white and his parents from the UK, he'd probably be sent to prison "under his Majesty's pleasure", and there would be no issue about it.

But it seems that the media are claiming that he's got ASD and mental health issues, and they sound as if he should be judged leniently. So given his family's ethnicity, and the fact that the media seem to want to get the police to go lenient on him, is making people think that he must be getting special treatment because of his family's ethnicity, in order to avoid being seen as racist for convicting someone whose parents are from Rwanda with a harsh sentence.

The sorts of people who are rioting are white working-class, not academics and graduates. They talk simply and practically. So when they want to say that they think that someone is getting special treatment because he is BIPOC and so many Western governments are bending over backwards to not appear racist, they say "Muslim" or "Asylum seeker", because that's a LOT shorter and simpler.

Of course, the middle-class people who went to university are going to complain that that doesn't make sense from an academic's POV. They'd say that a dog is a mammal, and not "man's best friend". They spend their time arguing about DEI, while African-Americans keep getting shot and killed by their own police.

Which party do you think will address these issues?
None.
Labour and the Tories know that whoever tackles these issues, is going to have to crack down on crime in poor, crime-ridden areas.

The Tories have traditionally under-invested in these areas, including policing, because they and their friends don't live there and don't go there.

The Tory solution to crime, is "If you don't want to deal with crime, don't live there. Earn lots of money and move to a nice, middle-class area, where that sort of thing doesn't happen."

Labour used to care about the people in these areas. But since they've switched to focus on minorities, they don't want to start cracking the whip on minorities that are in those areas, especially as many of their councillors and MPs are minorities that fear unprovoked physical attack from the police, for them, their families, and their friends and their friends' families, and for the people like them in their communities and across the country.

Labours is "We'll help minorities escape oppression and police brutality, by helping them earn more money, so they can afford to move to a nice, middle-class area, where that sort of thing doesn't happen."

They are both coming from different starting points. But their destinations are the same. Their commonality is that they both agree that the solution to the problems of anyone living in those areas, is to earn more money, become rich, and move to a nice, middle-class area where these sorts of issues don't exist.

That's fine, it's just a bit hard to understand what you're trying to say in this thread sometimes.

My understanding of what you're saying is that there is a problem with crime in poor areas of the UK. There's a perception that immigrants are contributing to these crimes and are being treated less harshly than white people by the police as they don't want to be perceived as racist, which is causing the white working class to protest. These areas need more investment in to improve and for the government to intercede and crack-down on crime in these areas more rather than just encourage people living there to move to more affluent areas.

Is that correct?
 

scorpiomover

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That's fine, it's just a bit hard to understand what you're trying to say in this thread sometimes.
I have a lot of problems that way. It's not you.

My understanding of what you're saying is that there is a problem with crime in poor areas of the UK. There's a perception that immigrants are contributing to these crimes and are being treated less harshly than white people by the police as they don't want to be perceived as racist, which is causing the white working class to protest. These areas need more investment in to improve and for the government to intercede and crack-down on crime in these areas more rather than just encourage people living there to move to more affluent areas.

Is that correct?
That sounds about right.

There are other issues the government needs to deal with, like managing immigration properly, managing the employment market and making sure that everyone has a job, and ideally, the job of their choice, and many other things.

But we don't need to mention them all now.

The main 2 issues are to:
(a) crack down on violent crimes like this, and
(b) to treat all people of all ethnicities, genders/sex, and sexual orientations, the same when it comes to the police and the law. No special treatment.

If the police would beat up a white poor working-class man who is trying to set a bus shelter alight, then in the same situation, they beat up a BIPOC man as well. No special treatment.

If the police would get rid of the white cops who have done certain things, they get rid of any BIPOC cops who have done those things. No special treatment.

This is difficult, though, because a BIPOC friend just said to me that he would get hassled by the police every single day. So there's already different treatment. That needs to be corrected.

If the treatment of different ethnicities is different because they have different levels of criminality and thus different perceptions of criminality, then police reports need to indicate that the person was being checked because he seemed like he might be doing something criminal and there needs to be photos or video so that can be confirmed.

But with modern technology, we can do that.

We just need IT systems that actually record that kind of information, in a way that makes it easy for the police to use.
 

Puffy

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That's fine, it's just a bit hard to understand what you're trying to say in this thread sometimes.
I have a lot of problems that way. It's not you.

My understanding of what you're saying is that there is a problem with crime in poor areas of the UK. There's a perception that immigrants are contributing to these crimes and are being treated less harshly than white people by the police as they don't want to be perceived as racist, which is causing the white working class to protest. These areas need more investment in to improve and for the government to intercede and crack-down on crime in these areas more rather than just encourage people living there to move to more affluent areas.

Is that correct?
That sounds about right.

There are other issues the government needs to deal with, like managing immigration properly, managing the employment market and making sure that everyone has a job, and ideally, the job of their choice, and many other things.

But we don't need to mention them all now.

The main 2 issues are to:
(a) crack down on violent crimes like this, and
(b) to treat all people of all ethnicities, genders/sex, and sexual orientations, the same when it comes to the police and the law. No special treatment.

If the police would beat up a white poor working-class man who is trying to set a bus shelter alight, then in the same situation, they beat up a BIPOC man as well. No special treatment.

If the police would get rid of the white cops who have done certain things, they get rid of any BIPOC cops who have done those things. No special treatment.

This is difficult, though, because a BIPOC friend just said to me that he would get hassled by the police every single day. So there's already different treatment. That needs to be corrected.

If the treatment of different ethnicities is different because they have different levels of criminality and thus different perceptions of criminality, then police reports need to indicate that the person was being checked because he seemed like he might be doing something criminal and there needs to be photos or video so that can be confirmed.

But with modern technology, we can do that.

We just need IT systems that actually record that kind of information, in a way that makes it easy for the police to use.

That's okay, it wasn't a criticism. I prefer to repeat back to someone what I understand when I'm unsure as it helps to avoid ambiguity and misunderstandings.

I agree that violent crimes should be deterred from happening and that police should treat people the same and not discriminate.

If I were to ask my BIPOC friends, they would probably tell you that institutional racism within the police has been a thing for a long time and would probably be skeptical that white people are receiving harsher treatment. Around 92% of the police force is white according to GOV.UK so BIPOC isn't as well represented in the police as other areas.

Maybe it's possible the police are becoming self-aware that this is the reputation that they have and so they're not being as harsh now in places. I'm not sure.
 

Hadoblado

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Police swinging back the other way and fearing for their job if they mishandle a confrontation with a minority is a completely plausible development given sufficient political pressures. I wouldn't be surprised if we simultaneously had officers who discriminated against a certain population while others are too lenient.
 

scorpiomover

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That's okay, it wasn't a criticism. I prefer to repeat back to someone what I understand when I'm unsure as it helps to avoid ambiguity and misunderstandings.
OK.

I agree that violent crimes should be deterred from happening and that police should treat people the same and not discriminate.

If I were to ask my BIPOC friends, they would probably tell you that institutional racism within the police has been a thing for a long time and would probably be skeptical that white people are receiving harsher treatment.
I was hearing from a BIPOC friend today, how the police picked on him every day.

What I do recall, was during the George Floyd riots and the BLM protests, that the IPCC carried out its own investigation of the police. It had 2 findings:
  1. The police were overly aggressive/violent with suspects.
  2. BIPOC tended to be viewed as suspected criminals by the police more than white people.
#2, however, is not so simple. The majority of BIPOC are in the cities. A lot are living in the poorer areas, where there's more crime.

Around 92% of the police force is white according to GOV.UK so BIPOC isn't as well represented in the police as other areas.
82% of the population are white. So I don't really see that as the problem.

But I agree that I'd like to see more BIPOC police dealing with BIPOC perpetrators and victims. If a BIPOC policeman beats up an innocent BIPOC, you can't blame that on racism.

So to stem the problem, I'd have lots of BIPOC police in the met and in the cities, where their main job is to sort out the incidents involving BIPOC.

Since BIPOC are almost always in cities or in large communities like Rotherham, it makes sense to have a lot of BIPOC police there.

Then you can let the white police deal with the white criminals and white victims.

If it's a conflict between BIPOC and whites, then you send a BIPOC police officer and a white police officer, so no-one can get away with being racist.

It's not the perfect utopia. But if it can stem the problem of victims of racism by the police, we can then do that for a while.

When we've got the situation under control and it seems stable, then integrate the police officers and their duties.
 

Old Things

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Around 92% of the police force is white according to GOV.UK so BIPOC isn't as well represented in the police as other areas.

That means essentially nothing if the educated people are the ones calling the shots.
 

Old Things

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Hadoblado

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Also, just as a general rule:

Be highly skeptical about any source about cops especially if it's non-local. It's one of the most sustainably politically charged issues there are.

One example of this is the "40%" domestic abuser stat pulled out by the left. It was one study of one police station in America iirc. It was also very old. I've seen people bring it up as if it's representative of all of Australia current day which is absurd.

People are extremely biased when it comes to cops. I'm personally not a fan but I try not to be an idiot about it.
 

Cognisant

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How do we distinguish systemic racism from legitimate profiling?

I mean if I'm called out to fix an IT issue I don't start with the assumption that it's a server side issue, I start with the user's laptop and 99% of the time that's where the issue is occurring. Likewise if you're a cop and you're dealing with people who are breaking the law, and more often than not those people are black, as a simple matter of efficiency you're going to pay more attention to black people.

Is that unfair? No more unfair then men crossing the street rather than walk behind a woman because we don't want to make her uncomfortable, I'm not a rapist and statistically the average man isn't likely to be a rapist, but it's a cross we all have to bear.

So if it sucks to be black because you get more police attention, insofar as the police aren't taking it further then that, then they're just doing their job and the inconvenience isn't their fault, it's the fault of the criminals who created the stigma.

That being said police who do shit like planting evidence should be punished HARSHLY because not only are they breaking the law, and of all people they ought to know better, they're also eroding everyone's trust in the rule of law and that absolutely positively cannot be allowed to happen.

I would support the death penalty for officers caught willfully falsifying evidence, that's possibly too harsh for the crime itself but given the impact upon society as a whole it is important that anyone caught doing this is used to set an example.
 

Old Things

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You mentioned black people...

You know what is really messed up? Some people think George Floyd was some sort of hero and he "died for us" or some kind of nonsense like that.
 

Cognisant

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I think black people in the USA are both victims of systemic racism and valid targets for profiling, I think there are some police who believe they're doing a moral good by taking black people off the streets or ensuring they feel unwelcome in some areas, and as awful as that is I cannot say they're 100% wrong.

I'm admittedly a bit racist but what's interesting to me is that I'm more classist than racist, I'll be wary of a black guy, unless he's wearing a collared linen shirt and then the colour of his skin doesn't matter to me, he's just a guy.

I remember watching a video that had three black guys and they were passing around an empty Starbucks cup talking about how holding it made police ignore them, they're totally aware of what I'm talking about and they know why it is. If you're buying fancy coffee you have a job, probably an office job, so even if you're dressed like a hoodlum or homeless person you might just be a software developer.
 

Puffy

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Around 92% of the police force is white according to GOV.UK so BIPOC isn't as well represented in the police as other areas.

That means essentially nothing if the educated people are the ones calling the shots.

Representation in the police is useful for a variety of reasons, including some of the ones that scorpiomover mentioned.

Around 92% of the police force is white according to GOV.UK so BIPOC isn't as well represented in the police as other areas.

That means essentially nothing if the educated people are the ones calling the shots.

Basically what @Hadoblado said as I was reading the thread.

I said a similar thing in the last sentence of my last post.
 

scorpiomover

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How do we distinguish systemic racism from legitimate profiling?

I mean if I'm called out to fix an IT issue I don't start with the assumption that it's a server side issue, I start with the user's laptop and 99% of the time that's where the issue is occurring. Likewise if you're a cop and you're dealing with people who are breaking the law, and more often than not those people are black, as a simple matter of efficiency you're going to pay more attention to black people.
Consider, though, you don't want bias and prejudice affecting things negatively.

Imagine if Aussie tourists got a reputation of being trouble-makers on holiday. Now, every time you leave the country, and someone in your hotel loses something, the police always come to your room, and search it from tip to toe, which takes 4 hours. Every time you plan to go on an excursion, you have to cancel and lose your deposit, because your room keeps being searched. Every time there's a murder, you stay 3 days in a cell.

Even if it's more likely to be an Aussie, do you really think that it's fair that you keep being hassled that much by the police, when you've never done anything like that, just because you're also of the same nationality as them?

Besides, if the police start profiling the Aussie tourists, then the British tourists will probably think that they won't get blamed for causing trouble, and will probably cause mayhem.

There are certain types of truths that are reasonable to associate and use.

But there are certain types of truths that, even if they are true, you don't want to rely on them, because it sends the wrong message to people, and then they get the wrong idea, and then that misperception causes far more problems than the extra hassle you would have not relying on that truth.

Put another way, I know that certain types of people are the people who cause 90% of the BS that IT people have to deal with. But you can't blame them, because it will just make them upset and make things even worse.

So sometimes, you have to ignore that sort of profiling, because the costs outweigh the benefits.

Is that unfair? No more unfair then men crossing the street rather than walk behind a woman because we don't want to make her uncomfortable, I'm not a rapist and statistically the average man isn't likely to be a rapist, but it's a cross we all have to bear.
I understand that many women are afraid of men.

I understand that men can sympathise with their fears and want to protect them from feeling afraid.

However, the brutal truth is that most women want relationships with men. Women like the company of men.

If you're not around them, then they'll likely still end up being around other men, if only because they either are seeking a relationship and so spend time in areas with lots of single men, or because they are in a relationship and live in an area with lots of other families and thus lots of men.

So by you avoiding them, they just end up being followed by another man who isn't you, and is thus more likely to be a rapist, just from simple averages.

Given how common rapes are reported, there's a lot of men who would take advantage of those women. So if you avoid them, you can increase their chances of being raped quite a lot.

In hindsight, I can see it with dating. The guys who didn't want to take advantage of women, didn't really date them.

But the girls still wanted a boyfriend, though, and so ended up dating the guys who weren't as bothered about hurting women. A lot of them got into situations where they felt they were almost raped, and had to escape the guys they were with. Many of them got raped. Many of them got into relationships with guys who used to hit them a lot.

You'd think this would make women back off from relationships. But it turned out that many/most women would rather have a relationship with an abusive man, than have no relationship with a man at all.

So by backing off, you're not saving them from danger. You're giving the dangerous men room to take advantage of women.

So if it sucks to be black because you get more police attention, insofar as the police aren't taking it further then that, then they're just doing their job and the inconvenience isn't their fault, it's the fault of the criminals who created the stigma.
1) It is the fault of the criminals. But you're being punished just because some of the people in your ethnicity turned to crime.

2) If you have some power to influence the collective of your ethnicity, and you didn't do that, then that gives you incentive to use your power to make the other members of your ethnicity behave.

But if you don't have that kind of influence to affect these criminals to give up their lives of crime, then you're being punished for something, when the punishment won't change anything about you for the better.

3) Rather, it will probably convince you that being a good person gets you punished anyway, and so you might as well do the crime, as you're paying for it anyway. I've met a lot of people in poor, crime-ridden areas, who told me they ended up feeling that way, and acting that way.

4) So it doesn't help. It also increases white crime, because the white criminals think that they'll be more likely to get away with it, and probably will.

Police don't have infinite resources and infinite time. Each case can only afford so much funding and so much time. So if they check the BIPOC suspects first, before they get to the white suspects, they'll run out of funding and time, and have to move on to another case.

5) You're better off sticking to some rules that make sense. Something like checking all rooms in the vicinity, whether they are occupied by BIPOC or white people, by men or women.

If you visibly act to make it clear that there's no favouritism, then the BIPOC feel like they're not being treated worse than anyone else, and still feel they have an incentive to not do crimes, and the white criminals see that they're not going to get away with crimes and so lose their incentive to be more criminal than normally.

That being said police who do shit like planting evidence should be punished HARSHLY because not only are they breaking the law, and of all people they ought to know better, they're also eroding everyone's trust in the rule of law and that absolutely positively cannot be allowed to happen.

I would support the death penalty for officers caught willfully falsifying evidence, that's possibly too harsh for the crime itself but given the impact upon society as a whole it is important that anyone caught doing this is used to set an example.
If you're going to give a huge incentive to NOT plant evidence, then you need the police force's laws and policy to be such that they don't feel pressured in any way to plant evidence.

Everything has to be done by the book. No cutting corners. No short-changing the evidence.

The real problem with that, is that then when crimes are high, and the police need more manpower, they don't get it, and then they feel a sense of duty to act anyway.

So you need to encourage them to feel that what protects people the most, is knowing that they can rely on the police, because the police will never do anything unlawful to them, because they'll never do anything unlawful.

But then if the police are so cautious, how will they ever catch the bad guys?

Easy. You teach them to be like Samurai warriors. You make them train for 2 hours a day, every day, even while they are working.

nahuel-ruiz-samurot.jpg
 

Old Things

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LOL. That about says it. Government officials are too scared to do anything (hi Joe) because they want to hold onto their power.
 

Cognisant

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In Australia they should stop accepting thousands of "refugees" without conducting background checks.

I don't want the leadership of Hamas living down the street from me.
 

fractalwalrus

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In Australia they should stop accepting thousands of "refugees" without conducting background checks.

I don't want the leadership of Hamas living down the street from me.
And what do you think prevents them from doing this? Do you really believe it is wokeness that drives the motives of your politicians?
 

Cognisant

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No I think this is basically a smash and grab, they know they're going to lose the next federal election, they just recently had a decisive state election loss, so now they're making as many back room deals and as much corrupt cash as they can.
 

fractalwalrus

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No I think this is basically a smash and grab, they know they're going to lose the next federal election, they just recently had a decisive state election loss, so now they're making as many back room deals and as much corrupt cash as they can.
How do they directly profit from these deals that you speak of? If there is cash involved, who is making money off of unfettered immigration?
 

Cognisant

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Well everyone with an investment property portfolio for a start.
 

Old Things

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