• OK, it's on.
  • Please note that many, many Email Addresses used for spam, are not accepted at registration. Select a respectable Free email.
  • Done now. Domine miserere nobis.

Forex

Raskolnikov

Redshirt
Local time
Today 11:45 AM
Joined
May 10, 2011
Messages
24
---
Location
Canada
Anyone ever get into Forex trading, either as a hobby or full-time job? Theoretically, it should be in the category of 'dream INTP jobs': You can work alone at home/completely self-sufficient, set your own schedules and work as much or as little as you wish, it involves lots of theoretical and logical thinking..Oh, and you can make a lot of money. :)

A couple years ago I tried it out with fake money and found it pretty fascinating, the way you develop theories for how/why you think the market will move a certain way, then devise a plan to try and make money off it. It's a lot like skill based gambling (ie. poker) in that you can never perfectly predict the cards/market trends and will inevitably lose some of the time, but if you make the most logically correct decisions, keep your money well managed, and stick to your fundamental game plan (ie. stay disciplined and unaffected by spur of the moment emotion) you will win in the long run.

Being true to my INTP self, I lost interest after a few months. I'm just starting to get back into it though, pretty much re-learning it from scratch and once again falling in love with the concepts behind it. I'm considering whether it would be worth trying to make some real money off of.
 

Architect

Professional INTP
Local time
Today 9:45 AM
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
6,691
---
Other than a way to cough up cash I find investing a poor way to spend your time (and I find forex particularly turgid) Why not take up engineering? More challenging, can be a loner etc, and is socially useful.
 

Raskolnikov

Redshirt
Local time
Today 11:45 AM
Joined
May 10, 2011
Messages
24
---
Location
Canada
Obviously not everyone shares your opinion that investing is a waste of time. There's nothing wrong with engineering, but I made this thread to discuss Forex and perhaps other types of investing.
 

Melllvar

Banned
Local time
Today 10:45 AM
Joined
Mar 17, 2010
Messages
1,269
---
Location
<ψ|x|ψ>
I'm not really sure what the appeal of Forex trading in particular would be. I tried day-trading stocks for a while but a) I sucked at it (never did learn enough to really know what I was doing) and b) felt like it was a complete waste of time, in that I'd spend 12+ hours a day staring at the stock tickers non-stop and going through news stories/researching companies as fast as I could, which just seemed like a horrible way to vegetate when I could be developing actual skills. It's pretty much a zero sum game and all you learn by doing it is how to be a better stock/bond/forex/etc. gambler. You could put those 12+ hours a day into programming or science or something and have real skills to show for yourself in a few years. Long story short the money just wasn't worth it (and I didn't really make much money, but I think that was mostly because I sucked/didn't learn enough before I got started). At this point I still have most of my money invested in stocks but they're medium or longer term investments that I don't have to worry about constantly. I just check the prices every day and every once in a while rearrange things when I feel I could be doing better.

My actual day job involves doing currency exchange for people (although not Forex investing), and the weird thing is how many scams there are going around. I get all these people wanting to invest in Iraqi dinar because they think the currency is going to be revalued and the current approximately 1:1000 exchange rate will become 1:1 or higher overnight. Which is retarded (among other things, everyone in Iraq would be rich as hell overnight). They hear about stuff like how the Kuwaiti exchange rate used to be so much lower, or how the Iraqi exchange rate used to be so much higher (because Saddam Hussein set it personally independent of any market pricing). Assuming anything happens at all, most likely the current currency will become worthless and there will be a limited time for it to be exchanged for whatever Iraqi currency it is replaced with, which for all I know won't even be possible except in Iraq itself. Basically, these people are getting ripped off by internet scammers promoting a falsehood, and the company I work for is happy to keep making a percentage selling them currency (I'm not an investment advisor, it isn't my job to tell people whether they should or shouldn't be buying the currency as an investment, and I'm pretty sure it would be illegal for be to be giving advice on it anyway. I just say, "I don't know anything about that, but if you want to buy it we are selling it.") Apparently people have also started doing the same thing with Vietnamese currency now, because I keep getting people wanting to buy that. Also after the Japanese earthquake/nuclear meltdown a few of the same people were asking about it, so I have no idea if some of the same people promoting this sort of scam were selling that falsehood as well.

Anyway, I recognize that that isn't real forex trading, but the point is there are a lot of people who like to scam idiots into investing in foreign currencies. Most (but not all) of the people doing it obviously don't have a lot of money and have no idea what they're getting into, but still think it's their chance to get rich quick because Jim Bob's brother's friend's uncle heard about this great opportunity.
 

Architect

Professional INTP
Local time
Today 9:45 AM
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
6,691
---
Obviously not everyone shares your opinion that investing is a waste of time. There's nothing wrong with engineering, but I made this thread to discuss Forex and perhaps other types of investing.

You asked for opinions, I gave one. Not trying to be offensive, but my honest opinion is that too many INTP's have already gone into financial services. It's been a terrible brain drain in general, and what has it produced? Nothing useful.

If INTPs really want to burn time investing there are better ways to use their talents in that direction. I became financially independent in betting in the housing crash and subsequent great recession, as I've posted elsewhere (i.e. I believe forex is more momentum investing whereas INTP's in general would do better going against the crowd)
 

Raskolnikov

Redshirt
Local time
Today 11:45 AM
Joined
May 10, 2011
Messages
24
---
Location
Canada
Architect said:
It's been a terrible brain drain in general, and what has it produced? Nothing useful.
You're implying that investors don't contribute anything useful to society? What about the fact that without them, capitalism would collapse? (I admit that Forex is a bit different in that respect).

Melllvar: Thanks for the input. It's true that there is a lot of shady stuff going on in and around the business, though it's really just a matter of not being dumb and believing the Nigerian prince. If you learn how to trade and become wholly independent, there's really no risk of running into any of these scams. The problem arises with get rich quick newbies who end up paying people for "perfect systems" and the like. People who don't want to put in the effort to actually learn anything themselves. All they care about is the end goal: Moneyz! And to be honest, I hardly feel sorry for them.

The corruption in the financial sector is really just a reflection on the way our capitalist system works. You could easily run into the same sorts of problems if you were to start your own business and make it public, though you could just as easily avoid them by being smart.
 

Kate

Novice
Local time
Today 11:45 AM
Joined
May 17, 2011
Messages
29
---
Location
NY
If you learn how to trade and become wholly independent, there's really no risk of running into any of these scams. The problem arises with get rich quick newbies who end up paying people for "perfect systems" and the like. People who don't want to put in the effort to actually learn anything themselves. All they care about is the end goal: Moneyz!

Agreed, some people will believe anything.:rolleyes: I haven't tried Forex but it intrigues me, when I get a some extra cash I might play with it.
 

Raskolnikov

Redshirt
Local time
Today 11:45 AM
Joined
May 10, 2011
Messages
24
---
Location
Canada
Kate said:
when I get a some extra cash I might play with it.
I'd seriously recommend getting a demo account and playing with fake money first, until you have a proven winning track record.
 

Infinite Regress

Active Member
Local time
Tomorrow 3:45 AM
Joined
Oct 14, 2009
Messages
138
---
Anyone ever get into Forex trading, either as a hobby or full-time job? Theoretically, it should be in the category of 'dream INTP jobs': You can work alone at home/completely self-sufficient, set your own schedules and work as much or as little as you wish, it involves lots of theoretical and logical thinking..Oh, and you can make a lot of money. :)

I don't deal exclusively with forex, but since I'm involved with equities, currencies and fixed income has a major part in generating signals [macroeconomic models].

If you are aiming to be just a retail punter, then opening a demo account is a start, but you need to be able to back-test your strategies and know you have positive expectancy over the long run.

You mentioned it is like playing poker, however the equivalent in the trading world would be market making rather than a position trader.

I'm not sure about you're background, but if you're young and quantitatively inclined,
then develop a background in financial math. Trading exotic options in FX is extremely lucrative, and the products are great structurally to take bets in the market.

I'd agree with you that it is a dream INTP job, but I'd add a qualifier - its better when you are trading someone else's money. It is extremely difficult to trade one's own capital, taking out living expenses and making a profit on top of that.

Other than a way to cough up cash I find investing a poor way to spend your time (and I find forex particularly turgid) Why not take up engineering? More challenging, can be a loner etc, and is socially useful.

Yeah, thats why a lot of engineers are flooding into finance and contributing to algorithmic/high frequency trading, that doesn't do sh*t for the market. Investing isn't a waste of time. if you know what you are doing.

You have something against putting disposable income into income generating assets so that one is financially independent in the future?
 

Kate

Novice
Local time
Today 11:45 AM
Joined
May 17, 2011
Messages
29
---
Location
NY
I'd seriously recommend getting a demo account and playing with fake money first, until you have a proven winning track record.

Yeah I saw that on the website, I would definitely do that first. But for the record I was talking more about money to burn more than anything.
 
Local time
Today 11:45 AM
Joined
May 14, 2011
Messages
84
---
The corruption in the financial sector is really just a reflection on the way our capitalist system works. You could easily run into the same sorts of problems if you were to start your own business and make it public, though you could just as easily avoid them by being smart.

Actually, that type of thinking is what more often than not gets people into trouble. Since people with that mindset tend to get the impression that they are immune to these problems if they're smart, and they'll suddenly relax, feeling a confident safety in that assertion, and they'll suddenly not be as concerned with potential problems, since if they were real problems, they'd be immune to it.
 

Jah

Mu.
Local time
Today 5:45 PM
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Messages
896
---
Location
Oslo, Norway.
^ That...

And investing what exactly ?
All your time in order to try to challenge an inevitably "smarter", faster algorithm which will take your spot and leave you with nothing but a sad story ?


I mean, face it; If you want to earn money, there are better, more honest ways. If you want a challenge, there are more productive and satisfying challenges. If you just want to master another game, why not pick one which doesn't end up being a repetition of itself and one where your playing it will actually make a difference in the long run.


I'm with the Architect; Go science or engineering.
At least there your mind will be put to good use, and we'll all benefit from it, even in the long run.
 

Infinite Regress

Active Member
Local time
Tomorrow 3:45 AM
Joined
Oct 14, 2009
Messages
138
---
^ That...
And investing what exactly ?
All your time in order to try to challenge an inevitably "smarter", faster algorithm which will take your spot and leave you with nothing but a sad story ?

How much HFT/algorithmic trading do you think dominates the market? Market making and position trading/investing are different time frames - they are not directly competing with each other.

I mean, face it; If you want to earn money, there are better, more honest ways. If you want a challenge, there are more productive and satisfying challenges. If you just want to master another game, why not pick one which doesn't end up being a repetition of itself and one where your playing it will actually make a difference in the long run.
I personally don't give care for convincing you, but for the sake of objectivity, there is more to trading/investing than proprietary trading.

How do people lock in exchange rates that might affect their business? Where do you think banks are obtaining debt, which is usually short term, to provide you with a long term loan to finance the purchase of a house/business?

The number of physicists/engineers/actuaries, some even at PhD level, I've seen fail when switching to this field, just goes to show this isn't as simple as you think.
 

Jah

Mu.
Local time
Today 5:45 PM
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Messages
896
---
Location
Oslo, Norway.
I think I understand what you mean, but in my mind it still seems like your just jumping from one hot plate to another. (Always trying to surf just ahead of the curve.)

Explain to me how this is a real game of skill, where you make a difference in the real world, and not just about dodging the bullet for as long as possible.


Of course, in a free market, there is this opening, and it does require some great minds at work. But I cannot help but thinking that a good learning algorithm will be able to out-compute most of the people within this field at the next leap in computational power (I'm here thinking about the upcoming leap from GHz to THz in processor-capacity.)


The argument that not all smart people "get it" is not really an argument at all. It just goes to show that the dynamics are different, indicating that you need more time to specialize in order to "get" this field. (And perhaps have a certain educated intuition about what will rise and what will fall.)




(and by the way, of course you want to convince, it is a basic trait of an intelligent human being. The need for external confirmation of yourself, or an aspect of yourself, is rooted into your psychology as a social animal.)
 

Infinite Regress

Active Member
Local time
Tomorrow 3:45 AM
Joined
Oct 14, 2009
Messages
138
---
Explain to me how this is a real game of skill, where you make a difference in the real world, and not just about dodging the bullet for as long as possible.

I'll clarify this before I answer, when you say dodge the bullet, what are you referring to here? That market crashes causes one inevitably to lose, or that one can't beat an algorithm?

Of course, in a free market, there is this opening, and it does require some great minds at work. But I cannot help but thinking that a good learning algorithm will be able to out-compute most of the people within this field at the next leap in computational power (I'm here thinking about the upcoming leap from GHz to THz in processor-capacity.)
They've used neural networks for trading signals, but there always needs to be someone to steer the boat, structure the products, decide whether to keep that algorithm or move on etc. Models in the financial world often break and much more sensitive, so leaving automated algorithms to run the show is a pipe dream.

I've already stated, a long term investor in equities isn't directly computing with algorithmic trading. In fact a lot of the firms using algorithmic trading aren't making money from the trades they make, but are compensated for this loss and more by the exchange by way of rebates for providing liquidity.

The argument that not all smart people "get it" is not really an argument at all. It just goes to show that the dynamics are different, indicating that you need more time to specialize in order to "get" this field. (And perhaps have a certain educated intuition about what will rise and what will fall.)
Weren't you the one saying it wasn't challenging and will end up repetitive? My point is that very smart people find it challenging, and not all succeed, since this type of role is heavily performance based. This isn't the type of job where you just hang in there and it will just eventually come to you.

Most of the advanced trading methodologies used involve derivative products, which doesn't need to guess whether the market is rising or falling. Just for the bare surface people can look up what delta neutral is.

(and by the way, of course you want to convince, it is a basic trait of an intelligent human being. The need for external confirmation of yourself, or an aspect of yourself, is rooted into your psychology as a social animal.)
Didn't I state specifically that I'm not out to convince YOU in particular? I've met folk like you and we never agree, but it's another side of the view, for future readers of the thread to make their own decisions about it.
 

Raskolnikov

Redshirt
Local time
Today 11:45 AM
Joined
May 10, 2011
Messages
24
---
Location
Canada
Actually, that type of thinking is what more often than not gets people into trouble. Since people with that mindset tend to get the impression that they are immune to these problems if they're smart, and they'll suddenly relax, feeling a confident safety in that assertion, and they'll suddenly not be as concerned with potential problems, since if they were real problems, they'd be immune to it.
That's a complete mis-characterization of what I was saying. You refer to "that mindset" without defining what "that mindset" is. In the context I was putting it, it's simply the ability to critically think (ie. being careful and thoughtful in your decisions; not being too cool for school as you apparently took it).
 

telepathink

Member
Local time
Today 4:45 PM
Joined
May 3, 2010
Messages
77
---
btw, forex is not about investing, it is about trading.
 

telepathink

Member
Local time
Today 4:45 PM
Joined
May 3, 2010
Messages
77
---
If INTPs really want to burn time investing there are better ways to use their talents in that direction. I became financially independent in betting in the housing crash and subsequent great recession, as I've posted elsewhere (i.e. I believe forex is more momentum investing whereas INTP's in general would do better going against the crowd)

did you abandon all the bets or you still in the game?
btw, holding US dollars or other fiat money is kinda investing to me too :) a contrarian one :D
 

Beat Mango

Prolific Member
Local time
Tomorrow 3:45 AM
Joined
Mar 25, 2009
Messages
1,499
---
I know nothing about Forex, but I'm intrigued. I think poker is a dead horse though so I'm hoping the prospects are better than that.

If INTPs really want to burn time investing there are better ways to use their talents in that direction. I became financially independent in betting in the housing crash and subsequent great recession, as I've posted elsewhere (i.e. I believe forex is more momentum investing whereas INTP's in general would do better going against the crowd)

Tell me more. I tried to search through your previous post that you referred to, I really did... WAIT. Found it:

I sold my house in 2005 at the peak of the local housing bubble, predicted the market crash in 2008, and put it all on the only asset class that soared that year, and sold at the peak again.
Would you say that was just good luck? Also, can you help me predict whether the housing market in Australia will crash? :kilroy: Seriously, I'm at the brink of getting into a mortgage and subsequent heavy leveraging so I'm really trying to figure it out.
 

Jah

Mu.
Local time
Today 5:45 PM
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Messages
896
---
Location
Oslo, Norway.
I'll clarify this before I answer, when you say dodge the bullet, what are you referring to here? That market crashes causes one inevitably to lose, or that one can't beat an algorithm?
I was considering short term, probably.
Like riding a wave, where the wave here is representative of an entrepreneur who's building a value which people are interested in for some time, and then trying to predict when you'll get the most from selling out.

But I was probably barking up the entirely wrong tree. As I was thinking of regular investments in budding firms, and new fields, both nationally and internationally, and not the exchange of currency, which probably is somewhat different.

Slightly confused with the terms, and pretty much just thinking about how better to apply an intelligent mind, without really looking to deep at what you were arguing.

They've used neural networks for trading signals, but there always needs to be someone to steer the boat, structure the products, decide whether to keep that algorithm or move on etc. Models in the financial world often break and much more sensitive, so leaving automated algorithms to run the show is a pipe dream.
Hmm, yes, I'm familiar with that role. I've gotten some introduction to it since last, and I think I understand better now.


Weren't you the one saying it wasn't challenging and will end up repetitive? My point is that very smart people find it challenging, and not all succeed, since this type of role is heavily performance based. This isn't the type of job where you just hang in there and it will just eventually come to you.
I was certainly convinced it has large potential to end up that way, but I may have changed a little on that.

But it still sounds a little like gambling to me.

Most of the advanced trading methodologies used involve derivative products, which doesn't need to guess whether the market is rising or falling. Just for the bare surface people can look up what delta neutral is.
My impression is of a fluctuating market, at least short-term. which makes the derivative jump. Are you then using an average delta over time and basically try to keep it at a positive slope, and gauge whether or not it is going to approach the neutral ? (in which case you drop it like it's hot ? )
Didn't I state specifically that I'm not out to convince YOU in particular? I've met folk like you and we never agree, but it's another side of the view, for future readers of the thread to make their own decisions about it.
I'm sorry I've given you the impression of being among the Contrarian-just-for-the-fuck-of-it crowd.
Though it may seem like I'm picking an argument, I'm actually willing to let you convince me.

I'd like it if you were to explain a little more in-depth How it works.
The ramifications are immaterial to me at this point, so I'm just curious about the actual structure of the intellectual challenge here.

How the puzzle is, how you go about deciphering it, and the basic structure of the game.
 

smithcommajohn

Do not consume with alcohol
Local time
Today 11:45 AM
Joined
May 27, 2011
Messages
581
---
Location
South Florida
I have spent years analyzing and studying the stock market in an on again/off again love/hate relationship. Each time I come to the same conclusions: No one can predict the future with any accuracy (except inside traders, which is illegal anyway) and time spent analyzing probably the largest random walk experiment in existence could be better used on other things.

That being said, I am invested in the market with asset diversity and rebalancing. I think it's the optimal strategy for maximizing profit vs. time spent.
 

Bryson

INTposer
Local time
Today 1:45 PM
Joined
Oct 28, 2010
Messages
76
---
Location
Brazil
I'm a bit late here but i wanted to share my views and experiences. I think forex/commodities/stock markets are definitely viable ways of making money, but you need to really enjoy what you are doing. If you have passion, you will sooner or later find a trading style that suits you and is profitable. If you are doing it just for the money, you are doing it wrong. The feeling you get when everything go exactly as planned, of having beat the market, that small ammount of time when you think you are the smartest guy the world has ever seen, that is truly satisfying! I don't bother being properly rewarded though. :D

It's ok to use demo accounts first, but I think we learn better when there's some pain envolved. And trust me, when your ass is in the line your behaviour will change, along with your decisions. You can't simulate that.
I'm just 23 and I've been trading futures and forex for 4 years. I still have a lot to learn, specially on the discipline and money management areas, but I think I'm on the right way.
If you are still interested, I recommend those books, all avaiable on 4shared:
''Reminiscences of a stock operator'' - a sort of biography of Jesse Livermore, a guy that made about 100 million trading back when that ammount was way more significant.
'Market Wizards'' and ''The New Market Wizards'' - interviews with very skilled traders, you will learn a lot from them. In particular, the Ed Seykota and Dr. Van Tharp interviews, both from the ''Market Wizards'', are priceless. Some quotes from Ed Seykota:
What is the most important advice you can give the average trader?
That he should find a superior trader to do his trading for him, and then go find something he really loves to do.
What can a losing trader do to transform himself into a winning trader?
A losing trader can do little to transform himself into a winning trader. A losing trader is not going to want to transform himself. That' s the kind of thing winning traders do.
What traits do you look for to identify the winning trader personality?
1. Не/she loves to trade; and
2. Не/she loves to win.
Don't all traders want to win?
Win or lose, everybody gets what they want out of the market. Some people seem to like to lose, so they win by losing money. I know one trader who seems to get in near the start of every substantial bull move and works his $10 thousand up to about a quarter of a million in a couple of months. Then he changes his personality and loses it all back again. This process repeats like clockwork. Once I traded with him, but got out when his personality changed. I doubled my money, while he wiped out as usual. I told him what I was doing, and even paid him a management fee. He just couldn't help himself. I don't think he can do it any differently. He wouldn't want to. He gets a lot of excitement, he gets to be a
martyr, he gets sympathy from his friends, and he gets to be the center of attention. Also, possibly, he may be more comfortable relating to people if he is on their financial plane. On some level, I think he is really getting what he wants.
I think that if people look deeply enough into their trading patterns, they find that, on balance, including all their goals, they are really getting what they want, even though they may not understand it or want to admit it. A doctor friend of mine tells a story about a cancer patient who used her condition to demand attention and, in general, to dominate others around her. As an experiment prearranged with her
family, the doctor told her a shot was available which would cure her. She constantly found excuses to avoid appearing for the shot and eventually avoided it entirely. Perhaps her political position was more important than her life. People' s trading performance probably reflects their priorities more than they would like to admit. I think that some of the most flamboyant and interesting traders are playing for more than profits alone; they are probably also playing for excitement. One of the best ways to increase profits is to do goal setting and visualizations in order to align the conscious and subconscious with making profits. I have worked with a number of traders in order to examine their priorities and align their
goals. I use a combination of hypnosis, breathing, pacing, visualization, gestalt, massage, and so forth. The traders usually either (1) get much more successful, or (2) realize they didn't really want to be traders in the first place.
Surely, some people lose because they lack the skill, even though they really want to win.
It is a happy circumstance that when nature gives us true burning desires, she also gives us the means to satisfy them. Those who want to win and lack skill can get someone with skill to help them.
 

Infinite Regress

Active Member
Local time
Tomorrow 3:45 AM
Joined
Oct 14, 2009
Messages
138
---
Would you say that was just good luck? Also, can you help me predict whether the housing market in Australia will crash? Seriously, I'm at the brink of getting into a mortgage and subsequent heavy leveraging so I'm really trying to figure it out.

This is only my guess, but sounds like someone banked it in gold.

The Aussie housing situation is difficult to predict. Our government keeps intervening (FHOG etc) and we are one of the few countries with negative gearing. I don't think it is worth getting into property, especially in Sydney.

I'm sorry I've given you the impression of being among the Contrarian-just-for-the-fuck-of-it crowd.
Though it may seem like I'm picking an argument, I'm actually willing to let you convince me.
It's okay, no animosity here - but for the record I do respect other disciplines such as physics, engineering, medicine etc and always encourage people to follow what interests them most.

You may have rubbed me a bit when you said there are more "honest ways" to make a living.

I'd like it if you were to explain a little more in-depth How it works.
The ramifications are immaterial to me at this point, so I'm just curious about the actual structure of the intellectual challenge here.

How the puzzle is, how you go about deciphering it, and the basic structure of the game.

But it still sounds a little like gambling to me.
There are many puzzles, depending on what the purpose of the trade is, the underlying, the products available to execute what you desire.

We'll continue to play the "market is all about predicting, especially picking peaks and buying troughs" puzzle from the sell-side.

Some firms treat the movement of stock price as Geometric Brownian motion - this is used in the Black-Scholes model to price options. How then do they make money, if essentially they consider the underlying random?

If we reduce it to a fair coin toss game with bets, how can we win consistently, without being able to predict the event?

Other headaches include executing your ideas. There were a few who predicted equity crashes, but how to execute and profit from this as an institutional investor? Pre-1987 there was no volatility skew in put options, so you could, and people did, make money being long put options. These days, large crashes are priced in (hence the skew), so it is not as easy as buying put options anymore.

My impression is of a fluctuating market, at least short-term. which makes the derivative jump. Are you then using an average delta over time and basically try to keep it at a positive slope, and gauge whether or not it is going to approach the neutral ? (in which case you drop it like it's hot ? )

When you use products like vanilla options, their value is contingent on price, time/volatility and interest rates - so for math folk partial differential equations come in. You can think of delta as the first derivative of measuring and options sensitivity to price (velocity), Gamma the second (acceleration).

If the position is structured to be delta neutral, small short term-market fluctuations do not affect the position a great deal. Being delta neutral though, means you are trying to capture volatility of an asset - but because there is an expiry date on these products, and depending on the volatility position, you have time (theta) working for or against you. E.g. if time is against you, the value of the option decreases as every day passes (non linear).

So in answer to your question from a speculating point of view, no - generally you are trying to keep delta = 0, if delta neutral is desired. When to drop it if it is hot? Model parameters and portfolio management skills, which is separate to a trading skill set, comes in. That is another topic in itself.
For instance though you believe volatility will deflate, and structure a position to take advantage of that e.g. short straddle. Once enough deflation has occurred, one can long the strangle and minimize or even eliminate all risk, while maintaining a payoff that resembles a butterfly spread. In this case, there is no need to drop it if it moves against you, but rather trying to maximize profit.
Note that there was risk, and that was when we were short the original straddle.

In the case of vanilla ops, there are a multitude of positions that can be taken http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Options_strategies
and you can shift from one position to another e.g. short straddle + long strangle = butterfly spread outlined above, to capture/hedge whatever is required.

Why capture volatility? Though a latent variable, it has characteristics that make it easier to model comparatively to stock price e.g. reversion to mean, clustering.

There's much more to consider and discuss, I'm suspecting with all the financial jargon, you will think wtf - but just a sample of the complexity and challenge available.
 

Infinite Regress

Active Member
Local time
Tomorrow 3:45 AM
Joined
Oct 14, 2009
Messages
138
---
Would you say that was just good luck? Also, can you help me predict whether the housing market in Australia will crash? Seriously, I'm at the brink of getting into a mortgage and subsequent heavy leveraging so I'm really trying to figure it out.

This is only my guess, but sounds like someone banked it in gold.

The Aussie housing situation is difficult to predict. Our government keeps intervening (FHOG etc) and we are one of the few countries with negative gearing. I don't think it is worth getting into property atm, especially in Sydney.

I'm sorry I've given you the impression of being among the Contrarian-just-for-the-fuck-of-it crowd.
Though it may seem like I'm picking an argument, I'm actually willing to let you convince me.
It's okay, no animosity here - but for the record I do respect other disciplines such as physics, engineering, medicine etc and always encourage people to follow what interests them most.

You may have rubbed me a bit when you said there are more "honest ways" to make a living.

I'd like it if you were to explain a little more in-depth How it works.
The ramifications are immaterial to me at this point, so I'm just curious about the actual structure of the intellectual challenge here.

How the puzzle is, how you go about deciphering it, and the basic structure of the game.

But it still sounds a little like gambling to me.
There are many puzzles, depending on what the purpose of the trade is, the underlying, the products available to execute what you desire.

We'll continue to play the "market is all about predicting, especially picking peaks and buying troughs" puzzle from the sell-side.

Some firms treat the movement of stock price as Geometric Brownian motion - this is used in the Black-Scholes model to price options. How then do they make money, if essentially they consider the underlying random?

If we reduce it to a fair coin toss game with bets, how can we win consistently, without being able to predict the event?

Other headaches include executing your ideas. There were a few who predicted equity crashes, but how to execute and profit from this as an institutional investor? Pre-1987 there was no volatility skew in put options, so you could, and people did, make money being long put options. These days, large crashes are priced in (hence the skew), so it is not as easy as buying put options anymore.

My impression is of a fluctuating market, at least short-term. which makes the derivative jump. Are you then using an average delta over time and basically try to keep it at a positive slope, and gauge whether or not it is going to approach the neutral ? (in which case you drop it like it's hot ? )

When you use products like vanilla options, their value is contingent on price, time/volatility and interest rates - so for math folk partial differential equations come in. You can think of delta as the first derivative of measuring and options sensitivity to price (velocity), Gamma the second (acceleration).

If the position is structured to be delta neutral, small short term-market fluctuations do not affect the position a great deal. Being delta neutral though, means you are trying to capture volatility of an asset - but because there is an expiry date on these products, and depending on the volatility position, you have time (theta) working for or against you. E.g. if time is against you, the value of the option decreases as every day passes (non linear).

So in answer to your question from a speculating point of view, no - generally you are trying to keep delta = 0, if delta neutral is desired. When to drop it if it is hot? Model parameters and portfolio management skills, which is separate to a trading skill set, comes in. That is another topic in itself.
For instance you believe volatility will deflate, so structure a position to take advantage of that e.g. short straddle. Once enough deflation has occurred, one can long the strangle and minimize or even eliminate all risk, while maintaining a payoff that resembles a butterfly spread. In this case, there is no need to drop it if it moves against you, but rather trying to maximize profit.
Note that there was risk, and that was when we were short the original straddle.

In the case of vanilla ops, there are a multitude of positions that can be taken http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Options_strategies
and you can shift from one position to another e.g. short straddle + long strangle = butterfly spread outlined above, to capture/hedge whatever is required.

Why capture volatility? Though a latent variable, it has characteristics that make it easier to model comparatively to stock price e.g. reversion to mean, clustering.

There's much more to consider and discuss, I'm suspecting with all the financial jargon, you will think wtf - but just a sample of the complexity and challenge available.
 
Top Bottom