Flow State

[AndyC]

I've recently been thinking about the flow state, and I've got a few too many assumptions to jump to any conclusions. so I just wanted to get your ideas, then discuss them with you and I'll start to get a better understanding. These are my own experiences:
There is this feeling I get when I am in the flow state, and I encounter it in other ways too. What I can do is look at something or a view, and focus intently on it for a few moments, experience this feeling whilst doing it and it becomes what seems like a photographic memory. I also experience it when using Ti sometimes when I'm analysing something systematic and I need to prove something, I focus and the answer will quite often come to me (as long as the task is somewhat divergent). These 3 scenarios are the most common in which I experience this 'feeling'. I was wondering if this is Si? Please share your ideas on the flow state. If you have any information you think would be helpful, that would be great too .

Edit:
There is a certain optimism to the flow state that I don't yet think should be dismissed.

 

[Cognisant]

In my experience a flow state is when you get "caught up" in doing something, like losing track of time while playing a videogame or spending hours writing an essay/story and only realizing how hungry/tired you (or how badly you need to pee) when you're finished or interrupted.

If you can learn to harness it you can become very productive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49p1JVLHUos

 

[Reluctantly]

Dopamine probably

 

[AndyC]

Thought I should clarify that I'm hoping to understand a certain state of mind, which could be the flow state.
Are there more than one kinds of flow states? I had an idea there may be an Si and an Se kind of flow state, say external and internal focus, but my understanding of Si and Se may be wrong in that regards. Once I find time I'll be able to explain my own analysis.


EDIT:
Okay guys, sorry for a crappy thread, I had no idea what I was going to write and yeah. As you may know if you read my Mastery of Thought thread, one of my current projects is the mastery of thought. So I will abandon this thread, and write whatever on there. But I would be happy to continue discussing what the Flow State is, and will put any thoughts regarding my mastery project on the Mastery of Thought thread. So forget anything I said regarding things beyond the flow state.

So how do the cognitive functions work with the flow state?

 

[Architect]

Dario Nardi's EEG experiments shows that the flow state across types corresponds to all the major top regions of the neocortex (F3, F3, F4, etc in the 10-20 system) are working synchronously - meaning they all are equally active. I don't think he said what that means exactly unfortunately, as in what band they are operating (presumably somewhere theta-alpha). Interestingly only two types - the Ni dominant INFJ/INTJ, show this as their default state when accessing Ni. Dario hypothesizes that Ni is a synchronized state.

In contrast Ne dominants and auxiliaries show what he calls a 'Christmas Tree' pattern, all the regions are operating 'asynchronously'. Again not crystal clear what that means, presumably at different frequencies and periods. Regardless this occurs regularly for Ne types and he associates it with trans contextual thinking. And, for other types when brainstorming, they do not show this pattern. Which demonstrates my long held believe that few people are truly capable of true brain storming.

Flow state is not easily achievable for me - I have to work to get it. My INFJ wife seems to be in it most of the time, unless she's upset about something. We call it "INFJ time" - she loses all track of time.

 

[Happy]

Flow state is not easily achievable for me - I have to work to get it. My INFJ wife seems to be in it most of the time, unless she's upset about something. We call it "INFJ time" - she loses all track of time.

Hm I had you pegged as someone who is in flow state often.
It sounds like your wife experiences flow state similar to the way I do. That losing track of time can be extremely frustrating.

@OP
I'm in flow state most of the day during workdays. I couldn't tell you how it works, neurologically, but anecdotally I've discovered that once you've figured out how to get into it, and how to avoid distractions that disrupt it, it becomes pretty easy to maintain. For me, solving complex problems is where I'm in the best flow state. The key I've found is in the 'gearing up' phase before flow state.

For example, I'm a very visual person, and looking at images really fires up my Ne, so I start my workday by visiting a couple of choice websites where I can browse pictures of buildings and such to start seeing geometric patterns forming in my mind. Then I start working. Having left open on my desk/computer whatever I was working on the previous day (I deliberately don't finish anything at the end of a day so I can easily pick up where I left off, rather than have to build momentum from scratch) I resume. Flow state comes pretty easily after that.

Regarding how to stay in flow state, I think the key is to avoid things that rip you out of it. For example, things like social media will kill flow state pretty quickly. The most notable though is email - which carries some perceived importance and urgency, easily disrupting flow state. I recommend staying away from such things.

 

[baccheion]

Flow state is related to theta waves (+ gamma waves, which allow you to remain conscious). GABA enhancers tend to make the flow state easier to achieve. You could listen to the relevant brainwave entrainment audio session (Neuro-Programmer 3), or you could supplement with something like piracetam + acetyl L-carnitine + fish oil. See the (my) creativity stack here: https://trackmystack.com/users/baccheion.

 

[Black Rose]

Flow is caused by complete relaxation of the mind.
I have been under emotional stress a long time.
I noticed that when I meet no resistance I have flow.
It happens when I feel like everything is o.k.
Most of the time I feel like things are not o.k.
But it does feel good to relax when doing an activity.
The mind is quiet or is active but it is relaxed.

 

[redbaron]

Pretty sure everyone here is using a different definition of flow.

"Actual" flow is usually the result of being highly talented at something and having those talents challenged to a degree that doesn't become either boring or overwhelming.

I don't think most people achieve flow very often, or that anyone experiences it constantly throughout the day unless their entire life is one big challenge that they're also capable of meeting day-in and day-out.

I think you find it occurring regularly mostly in athletes, artists and entrepeneurs.

 

[Architect]

Hm I had you pegged as someone who is in flow state often.
It sounds like your wife experiences flow state similar to the way I do. That losing track of time can be extremely frustrating.

I have amazing (calling Donald Trump ... calling Donald Trump) powers of concentration, but I'm fairly easily distracted. Ne no doubt. If I focus on being focused I will achieve flow, measured by losing track of time. Pleasurable, but it doesn't happen spontaneously.

The side of me you see here is the reasoning Architect, I tend to channel everything through that in text (probably a side effect of writing software for some decades).

Pretty sure everyone here is using a different definition of flow.

Probably, I use the definition from Csíkszentmihályi.

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

For Ni flow, I use the term "instant mastery" whereby the brain's resources are all put into some external focus. At such a time I may have insight into something which I lose afterwards and can barely remember how I got there, although possibly being able to recreate it. It is when the mind is so comfortable with the basics of something, that it turns to creatively interacting. It tends to just happen rather than something I intentionally enter into, although this is subject to change.

 

[Happy]

Pretty sure everyone here is using a different definition of flow.

"Actual" flow is usually the result of being highly talented at something and having those talents challenged to a degree that doesn't become either boring or overwhelming.

I don't think most people achieve flow very often, or that anyone experiences it constantly throughout the day unless their entire life is one big challenge that they're also capable of meeting day-in and day-out.

I think you find it occurring regularly mostly in athletes, artists and entrepeneurs.

This is the definition I've been running with.

When I say I experience flow most days, I mean it. It's been going for about 9 months now, as I apply a reasonably high level of skill to unique problems every day (I'm a designer btw). I'm only able to keep it because I have a large degree of autonomy in that I can pick and choose the problems I want to tackle. This won't last forever, but right now it's a very good position to be in. It's exhausting though; snapping out of flow at the end of the day is difficult - as the body stops, but the brain tends to keep running.

I have amazing (calling Donald Trump ... calling Donald Trump) powers of concentration, but I'm fairly easily distracted. Ne no doubt. If I focus on being focused I will achieve flow, measured by losing track of time. Pleasurable, but it doesn't happen spontaneously.

The side of me you see here is the reasoning Architect, I tend to channel everything through that in text (probably a side effect of writing software for some decades).

That makes sense. I recall you've described a need to step away from a problem to find an answer a lot of the time. I guess that probably wouldn't happen if you were in a state of flow.

That losing track of time is nice though isn't it? Or at least when it's not taken to te extreme.
When I was younger, and less mature, I'd find that state of flow and wouldn't know how to contain it. There were a number of times where I'd lose track so badly that I'd forget to eat or sleep for a number of days, in which time I wouldn't leave my desk. It took me years to get on top of it.

Probably, I use the definition from Csíkszentmihályi.

I've been reading up on this just now. Thanks. I think I'm gonna get his book.
I feel able to relate to his idea of the autotelic personality because my internal need to carry out the tasks I do is driven not by external need, but some internal drive in which happiness is found in doing, and not in having done.

I realised this recently when a project (a building) that I'd been designing had been sent off to be built, I didn't feel any sense of accomplishment, but rather I was a bit disappointed that it was out of my hands. I hadn't noticed this before, but looking back, I've never really gotten any sense of achievement from a finished project.

 

[redbaron]

I don't really think I gave a good explanation, but I don't think the flow state where people are performing/thinking optimally and achieving amazing levels of productivity (what I think the OP is talking about) is a state that can be defined by "losing track of time".

I can lose track of time watching my cat, that doesn't mean I was in flow. When you concentrate on something, you lose focus on other things. But concentration isn't 'flow' or at least isn't the type of flow being sought after here.

There's some guys running a thing called the flow genome project, which is unfortunately becoming more and more of a marketing gimmick, but initially started as an interesting research project (and a book) into how people can get "in the zone" from elite musicians to freeclimbers. I tend to think that the generic idea of "flow" is something now somewhat misguided as it just seems like concentrating on something you like brings that about - but actually hitting a state of boosted creativity and autonomic excellence well beyond what you'd normally be capable of is a bit different.

Maybe some people hit it with regularity. If we go by mikhail's definition I can hit it easily in numerous tasks, but I don't think that's much more than enjoyment + ability + challenge. That's just contextual though, and not really relevant to ideas of how to harness it to succeed at other areas.

 

[AndyC]

Interesting, on a more personal note, it seems a level of confidence is required for the flow state to be achieved. Dario Nardi speaks about INTP flow state being achieved when expertise is experienced, and I think there is perhaps an ego that must justify the attributed expertise in order for this pattern to occur. This follows my most recent reflections on my most recent states of flow.

 

[Architect]

Dario Nardi speaks about INTP flow state being achieved when expertise is experienced, and I think there is perhaps an ego that must justify the attributed expertise in order for this pattern to occur.

Do you recall where he said that? It sounds familiar.

In Csíkszentmihályi's original formulation of flow it was skill meeting an appropriate level of challenge and feedback that produced the state. So Nardi is saying that INTP's have it when they experience expertise - that is they are using their hard earned skills, not improving them?

Interesting ... on reflection that's true for me. While I can with some difficulty experience flow according to the traditional definition, I easily experience flow when using my knowledge to solve a problem, or when talking to others from my knowledge base. Presumably Nardi is measuring the flow state by the 'zen' connectedness, which is all the regions of the brain are 'in sync' (at an equal amplitude and operating together). This is the natural Ni state of the INFJ/INTP, and is opposite the 'Christmas tree' state he see's with Ne's. Fascinating.

 

[Architect]

Doing a search for "INTP flow" results in a number of good hits. Others (e.g. Personality Hacker) have discussed Flow and type.

Breaking it apart I think we can say that different types will experience flow along two axis. The first is the type of activities where Flow is possible. For example, Csíkszentmihályi says that people can experience flow in conversation, but clearly this will only occur for an INTP who is discussing their primary interest, and not in general chit chat. Another example, you would expect that an ISTP would experience flow in some kind of physical activity involving skill, and again not the INTP (unless it's typing or writing).

The second axis for creating relates to how the activity is performed. Given the INTP has flow while using their expertise, this means that an INTP will experience it more when using their skills in a new situation, but not so much in expanding those skills. Taking a programming example, for an INTP skilled in such it would mean that programming something new should trigger flow. However learning how to program in a new area which involves learning lots of new skills (such as a INTP web programmer trying embedded programming) then Flow would tend not to be achieved.

Fascinating ... this does align with my experience. I wasn't aware of it but I do get in Flow when talking from my experience (such as when I BLAH BLAH here), and when I'm programming. But in my work I frequently have to learn something new - some new area, which is a great feature of CS but I don't experience Flow while in the learning state. Which explains why I (and presumably other INTP's) are better at working with existing systems rather than creating new systems (e.g. I have a hard time starting a new project but once the structure is developed it goes much smoother).

This also probably explains why INTP's can have narrow interests and often struggle in school. There are other reasons for being a bad student, such as balking at authority, but this might be the primary - which is while we enjoy expanding our mind we don't enjoy exploring new areas (if its a difficult path).

 

[Sciamachy]

I don't really think I gave a good explanation, but I don't think the flow state where people are performing/thinking optimally and achieving amazing levels of productivity (what I think the OP is talking about) is a state that can be defined by "losing track of time".

I can lose track of time watching my cat, that doesn't mean I was in flow. When you concentrate on something, you lose focus on other things. But concentration isn't 'flow' or at least isn't the type of flow being sought after here.

There's some guys running a thing called the flow genome project, which is unfortunately becoming more and more of a marketing gimmick, but initially started as an interesting research project (and a book) into how people can get "in the zone" from elite musicians to freeclimbers. I tend to think that the generic idea of "flow" is something now somewhat misguided as it just seems like concentrating on something you like brings that about - but actually hitting a state of boosted creativity and autonomic excellence well beyond what you'd normally be capable of is a bit different.

Maybe some people hit it with regularity. If we go by mikhail's definition I can hit it easily in numerous tasks, but I don't think that's much more than enjoyment + ability + challenge. That's just contextual though, and not really relevant to ideas of how to harness it to succeed at other areas.

(My first post so I assume that's significant on some level )

I work at a pizza chain and have seen our best (in terms of preparing pizza) manager enter into what I can only assume to be a "flow" state at some points. He can pretty much singlehandedly prepare all of pizzas for a Friday night, in a college town, without a single missed order. At some points over 120 orders an hour. Whether that's an example of a flow state in a less "exotic" realm...I'm not sure.

I've typed him ESTJ (I pretty much type everyone I meet), so then again, maybe it's just his S and J going "full workhorse mode."

 

[manishboy]

Just read a book that has helped me get a handle on the feeling of being in the moment. It's called The Open Focus Brain, by psychologist Les Fehmi. He stumbled on a way of using attention that produces measurable effects on brain waves and physiology generally as well as on one's experience by inducing a relaxed state.

The gist of his technique is to gently focus on background over foreground. So when looking at a tree, for instance, I would try be aware of the space that holds the tree as much as being aware of the tree itself. His argument is that by focusing on something as abstract (not the right word but gotta move on) as space the mind can't get its hooks in to manipulate it (ie, to properly conceptualize it), and so in a sense the mind is thrown back on itself and stumped for while thereby getting a chance to rest.

The best part part is that it's easy and it works!

Side note on synchrony: Using what he calls diffuse attention leads to synchronization across different areas of the brain. In contrast, highly focused concentration produces desynchronized activity. That's why when you try to get into flow you can't.

 

[AndyC]

For Ni flow, I use the term "instant mastery" whereby the brain's resources are all put into some external focus. At such a time I may have insight into something which I lose afterwards and can barely remember how I got there, although possibly being able to recreate it. It is when the mind is so comfortable with the basics of something, that it turns to creatively interacting. It tends to just happen rather than something I intentionally enter into, although this is subject to change.

Yes, it's very much like an instant mastery. I find that if I struggle with something, the second I achieve flow whilst doing it, I master it and my mind has adapted to it. This happened the other day in martial arts when out of nowhere everything sort of went quiet and my focus quadrupled. I was unstoppable, but the second my flow went away, I was better, but not even close to the skill I had attained whilst in the flow state.
When it comes to art, I can get into the flow in about a minute or two. I used to be able to do the same when doing math but stopped because I was finishing my class work too fast and got bored. With math it's like I know the answers without thinking about it, with the martial arts, I wasn't even thinking about it, and with art it's similar. There is a level of confidence that is normally present in these states that I am trying to identify. Maybe this confidence is a clarity or comfortability that allows you to interact creatively like you said. The flow has a way of bringing about my Ne and Ti to high amplitudes, but this could easily be a result of other things.

 

[AndyC]

https://selfhacked.com/2015/07/30/2...agus-nerve-and-all-you-need-to-know-about-it/

 

[Beholder]

I sometimes get into flow state when drumming. I play percussion and drums, after warming up for about half an hour, if at least one or two of the other people who are playing also get into this mood, it feels like my body is just playing on it's own (kind of like when driving or riding a bike), and my consciousness is sort of distributed through all of my brain.
Like how normally you're focused on one or two thought trains, or sensations, or something like that, so when I'm in this 'flow state' it's like I'm not focused on anything, but I am all my thoughts, and they're all super focused, there's usually math mixed up in there, and it always feels very profound and spiritual in a way (I'm a math major, so I kind of see math in everything and everything in math these days). It kind of reminds me of how when you're just falling asleep and all your thoughts and associations get jumbled up, but it's also like dancing, very physical.
Normally when I think about what I'm playing (in a Ti way) I just lose it, but in 'flow state' I think of it in a different way, it's like the analytical part of it is mingled with the feel of it, and I can keep playing and feeling more and more complex rhythms.
Like someone said, it does depend on feeling confident, so if I'm feeling self conscious about my playing, or there are much better musicians around who are really out of my league, it's hard to get into this mood, or for example a few weeks ago after one of these 'flow states' someone pointed at me and said "he looks like he's in a trance!", and then all the attention just through me right out of that state.

I sometimes get into a similar state when I'm listening to music and working on a math or programming problem, when all the pieces start coming together, and it becomes very visual - usually in things like group theory or set theory, or in programming when I'm finding a much more efficient and elegant (usually in terms of the code itself) way of doing something, and it feels like "pruning" and connecting branches in a graph.

So yeah, it's nice...