Female Rationals

[chocolate]

I've noticed there are many females here, but my question is for everyone.

More or less, what I am wondering is: Are female NTs less 'feminine' than other types? Sometimes I feel like I'm not girly enough as I have that NT edge and confidence that is really more valued in men. I'm a friendly person, but I'm not at all warm. I really do love my family and friends strongly, I'm just not very cuddly about it. I've been told by a couple of idealist guys I dated that I'm not feely enough.

Also for the females here, do you ever wish you were F, or feel that something is a bit off about you because of your T (or specifically NT)?

Chocky.

 

[Vegard Pompey]

I don't know about NTs specifically, but the impression I get is that INTPs of both sexes are further from the gender norm; This could perhaps be easily explained with the fact that a very small percentage of the population is INTP and are therefore further from the norm regardless of gender.

 

[loveofreason]

Where does feeling like an alien fit in?

I think there is something I'm missing. But I'm not sure what it is. It seems to be a kind of docility, and as such repels me... yet its possessors appear 'happy', 'content', 'fulfilled'. They seem able to express 'love'. They seem able to trust.

I realise the dynamics change as culture moves... ummm... what are we talking about when we say 'femininity'? Are we talking shallow cultural signaling, or are we talking some kind of universal polar attitude? The relativity of yin-yang?

 

[wadlez]

I assume that femininity means character traits and behaviour believed to be typical to females.
I imagine a female that has the cold and logical Introverted Thinking as there primary function would definantly be less 'feminin' than a girl that is a strong feeling type. They wouldnt be swept away by the emotion of there milieu and would seem detached from situations, more than you would expect for a female.

Even though the same mbti types are not good combinations for relationships as people need the contrast to balance them out, I cant help but think that INTP's would be the perfect female, as they would not put on that superficial act and there opinions and personality would more likely be unique and individual rather than caste in a social mould.
Carl jung says in his book the psychological types that from experience he has found most females to be either E or F types.

 

[loveofreason]

There is a difference in not being swept along by the external emotional milieu and in being subject to one's internal milieu.

I find that being detached from the outside perversely doesn't protect one from it. If anything the impact is amplified, but it is hidden, unexpressed; fearsomely overwhelming or frightfully numb. It is confusing, idiosyncratic and frequently inappropriate.

Trying to navigate my own emotions is like trying to steer a rudderless ship with holds full of water. And I can't swim. I'll do anything to keep on dry land, but still can't be rid of the hidden ocean. As well as keeping from drowning, part of keeping it contained is the need to limit it's impact on other people.

'Successful' containment leads to the 'not-feeling' state. Only in times of overwhelm does it make it's presence felt.

Detachment preserves one until it is safe to examine the emotional chaos within.

But this thread was about something else...

back to the topic!

 

[cheese]

I think by "less feminine" you probably mean less given to gossip and emotional interaction styles, as these are considered predominantly female characteristics and thereby generally distinguish possessors from males (lor: I think cultural signalling perhaps springs from universal polarity and perhaps is not necessarily shallow? will think more about this*).

In those senses: yes, we're less feminine. I've had several men tell me I'm more like a guy than a girl, and though others have said otherwise, I'm inclined to agree with the first lot (I think they're more numerous too). I dressed terribly for most of my life - this has only recently started to balance out - enjoyed physical fighting and arguments, detested flirting and girly mind-games, vehemently eschewed high school "radical female-ism" and found it very difficult to express my feelings for others, including my own family (I found it impossible to say "I love you" to my parents for most of my life despite having been brought up in a very openly affectionate household; I also never initiated and hardly returned hugs. This has changed in the last few years as Fe has developed.). I have met (possibly) a couple of NT girls and they're similar in these ways. I suspect ENTs are probably slightly more feminine - perhaps more external interaction leads to greater unconscious absorption of socially-normal traits?

Interesting note: Just a while ago some guy (who is quite possibly an INTx) told me I'm not very typically female. I was flattered, even more so when he told me he meant it as a compliment.

*Have thought more about it - lor and wadlez:
Statistics show that women are more often F than T and vice-versa for men, so I suppose it would be fair in the interests of generalising (ok, stereotyping) to say that "character traits and behaviour believed to be typical to females" are, in fact, typical to females, at least the F-related ones. They are less typical of males, so the femininity/masculinity divide is a legitimate one, but not to the same degree for every member of the population. The differences between both ends of the spectrum lead to behaviours that are socially prescribed but don't sit well on the people closer to the middle.
We could argue that the stats are skewed by these very prescriptions, but the gender divide is (I think!) supported by science (female brain vs male brain, testosterone vs oestrogen etc).

Lor: if I understood your question on definition correctly, this would mean there is no significant difference between cultural signalling and universal polarity. The specifics in prescribed behaviours would vary but would spring from the same root (UP) and presumably express the same principles. Since we are not comparing ourselves to any culture but our own, our responses will be legitimate regardless of cultural differences.

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this. Sorry if I've misunderstood anything; I suspect I have. I feel rather stupid tonight. Hopefully I haven't hindered the discussion.

 

[Decaf]

On another thread this morning I came upon a thought that might have some relevance to this topic. I don't believe that INTPs are random. Our perceived randomness comes from having a lot of associative connections to any particular topic and, MOST IMPORTANTLY, no feeling of internal pressure to choose the most "appropriate" association to continue our train of thought.

We tell "off-color" jokes on accident, we make "wild leaps" of subject in conversation and we behave with a mix of what are generally bundled together as "masculine" and "feminine" traits. One of the first things most type descriptions list as definitive of INTPs is that we are independent, and maybe we that concept reaches further than we give it credit.

 

[FF]

I've noticed there are many females here, but my question is for everyone.

More or less, what I am wondering is: Are female NTs less 'feminine' than other types? Sometimes I feel like I'm not girly enough as I have that NT edge and confidence that is really more valued in men. I'm a friendly person, but I'm not at all warm. I really do love my family and friends strongly, I'm just not very cuddly about it. I've been told by a couple of idealist guys I dated that I'm not feely enough.

Also for the females here, do you ever wish you were F, or feel that something is a bit off about you because of your T (or specifically NT)?

Chocky.

Growing up, I always labeled myself as a tomboy.

Actually, other people labeled me as a tomboy, and I began to go along with that.

chocolate, since you're extroverted, I believe that's where your confidence comes from. However, I have confidence myself, but it is more like "inner confidence." It's hard for me to display my confidence on the outside, since I am more introverted than extroverted, ESPECIALLY around strangers. But I think NTs have confidence overall, it's just that ENTs and INTs have different kinds of confidence, I believe.

And yeah, when it comes to people, I tend to be rather cold...even if I don't want to be, it just sort of happens. I guess most men prefer women who are more warm, because it seems like most men are rather...cool. But since I'm "cool" or whatever, I guess I'll have to find a man who's willing to act warmly to me. It's not impossible, but, it may be rather hard. But ohh well.

And yeah, sometimes I do wish I had more F qualities. One reason is the reason above. It seems like F girls date easier. But whatever, I'm a picky person when it comes to men. Although it is sometimes necessary to have some F qualities at the right moments...but still, I don't want to lose my true personality.

In a nutshell, I would like to practice using F qualities at the right moments, while still remaining mostly a T.

Because most of the time, I think being all lovey-dovey is icky.

 

[fullerene]

From the "last post" thing on the main page I had no idea who made this thread, misread the title as "female rationales" and thought "oh geez... this is gonna be ugly."

 

[Artifice Orisit]

I guess the difference between rational and emotion females could best be highlighted two examples of a romantic situation.

Example 1, Emotional People
Sitting together on a park bench a young couple lean on each other, talking softly to each other and occasionally expressing their affection with a kiss or intimate contact (generally just holding on to the others arm or something). Clearly the couple are providing each other with positive emotional stimulation; I assume we've all seen examples of this in public and wished silently that they'd just get a room.

Example 2, Rational People
On the same park bench a different couple sit; not at opposite ends, but not sitting on top of each other either. Each is engrossed in a typical NT activity (web-surfing, reading, thinking, drawing, observing, etc) and so to the casual observer they may seem unaware of the others presence. Only the occasional verbal exchange takes place and it is in this brief moment that an outsider can sense the deep connection between the two.
Having previously established their feelings for each other these rationals don't require the constant physical stimulation to be aware of their connection. With subtle smiles, gentle body language and a myriad of other subconscious indicators the two are able to share an almost telepathic emotional link; all while they continue their intellectual pursuits.

There are of course many other examples but my summary remains the same; NT people do feel emotion, they just keep it private and personal. NT females can be some of the most caring, compassionate and otherwise emotionally deep people on earth, it's just their need for privacy that makes them seem cold to non-NT people.
Likewise NT romance can be incredibly deep and emotional; however due to its rarity the social rituals are poorly understood.

 

[chocolate]

There are of course many other examples but my summary remains the same; NT people do feel emotion, they just keep it private and personal.

This is a great way to put it. I always feel embarassed to show emotion in front of others, and I've never been sure of why. But everything you said about the little clues is so true for me.


@cheese: I also don't tell my parents I love them, and I don't hug them either. One day I want to tell my mom I love her. Also, about what I mean by less feminine, I suppose I mean less desirable by a man, for a longterm relationship. I tend to attract people pretty easily, but don't have the truly attractive qualities that it seems are supposed to go along with being female (warm, gentle, more on the submissive side, naturally sensitive to feelings and naturally interested in feelings, softer personality, less independent -- this is not a very good explanation I know, just off the top of my head when I picture what I mean by feminine).

@everyone who replied so far: thanks for responding, great replies.

 

[echoplex]

More or less, what I am wondering is: Are female NTs less 'feminine' than other types?

Not at all. With the MBTI, we're talking about preferences more than anything. I do think that, on average, women are more "in tune" with their emotions, which brain differences would seem to indicate. However, I don't think by any means that that makes a preference towards rational thinking un-feminine. If anything, I think it makes female INTPs less likely to be cold, robotic ppl like some male INTPs might be.

However, if you're going by the flimsy perjorative definiton of "feminine," then yeah, they may very well be less so. I'm sure they're perceived as so, but eff that.

 

[echoplex]

Also, about what I mean by less feminine, I suppose I mean less desirable by a man, for a longterm relationship.

I don't know which men you're speaking of, but as a guy, I'd say that an NT is probably the type of person I'd most likely want for a long-term relationship. NFs seem more well-suited for flings, generally speaking. And SJs, well, they better be very pretty and know how to cook.

 

[Ermine]

I've noticed there are many females here, but my question is for everyone.

More or less, what I am wondering is: Are female NTs less 'feminine' than other types? Sometimes I feel like I'm not girly enough as I have that NT edge and confidence that is really more valued in men. I'm a friendly person, but I'm not at all warm. I really do love my family and friends strongly, I'm just not very cuddly about it. I've been told by a couple of idealist guys I dated that I'm not feely enough.

Also for the females here, do you ever wish you were F, or feel that something is a bit off about you because of your T (or specifically NT)?

Chocky.

Well, it depends on your definition of feminine. I look and dress feminine, apart from avoiding pink and conspicuous makeup. As for mannerisms and customs, yes, I am less feminine. I simply don't get a lot of it. Conventional flirting is a hassle, gossip is a bore, excessive giggling is a chore. My mind isn't stereotypically feminine at all, other than being attracted to guys. However, like echoplex said, I am emotional, but I don't really know what to do with those emotions. I have my caring moments. I'm just not outwardly emotional or prone to physical contact.

One particularly acute aspect to being an INTP female, at least in high school, is that I tend to intimidate most guys. I'm not submissive, I can hold my own in their areas of expertise (math, science, computers, sports, etc.), I never dumb myself down, and I'm not outwardly emotional. Essentially, I catch them off guard since I'm not like the rest of them and I'm no "damsel in distress". Therefore, my dating life is nearly nonexistent. It does get better after high school, right?

I sometimes wish I were F, but being INTP has its perks. I've found that many of the stereotypically emotional, sensitive, girly girls I know actually admire me for the assets I sometimes view as faults. They like me for my independent mind, my thick skin, my creativity, my frankness, my "wisdom". Whenever I feel inadequate due to my insensitivity, I just remember that others feel inadequate because they lack my traits.

 

[truthseeker72]

Well, it depends on your definition of feminine. I look and dress feminine, apart from avoiding pink and conspicuous makeup. As for mannerisms and customs, yes, I am less feminine. I simply don't get a lot of it. Conventional flirting is a hassle, gossip is a bore, excessive giggling is a chore. My mind isn't stereotypically feminine at all, other than being attracted to guys. However, like echoplex said, I am emotional, but I don't really know what to do with those emotions. I have my caring moments. I'm just not outwardly emotional or prone to physical contact.

One particularly acute aspect to being an INTP female, at least in high school, is that I tend to intimidate most guys. I'm not submissive, I can hold my own in their areas of expertise (math, science, computers, sports, etc.), I never dumb myself down, and I'm not outwardly emotional. Essentially, I catch them off guard since I'm not like the rest of them and I'm no "damsel in distress". Therefore, my dating life is nearly nonexistent. It does get better after high school, right?

I sometimes wish I were F, but being INTP has its perks. I've found that many of the stereotypically emotional, sensitive, girly girls I know actually admire me for the assets I sometimes view as faults. They like me for my independent mind, my thick skin, my creativity, my frankness, my "wisdom". Whenever I feel inadequate due to my insensitivity, I just remember that others feel inadequate because they lack my traits.

I've devoted a lot of thought to this subject over the years. What I've learned is that as males and females grow older, they become less attached to gender roles. My first girlfriend in high school represented the quintessential "sugar and spice" girl. Now, almost twenty years later, I avoid "girly" girls like the plague, and am drawn to attractive women with a masculine edge. I strongly prefer women who intellectually challenge me over demure, passive women. When a woman plays dumb, or is actually dumb, I lose respect for her. And I simply can't fall in love with a woman that I don't respect.

Also, I believe that the T/F dichotomy between men and women is somewhat exaggerated. From what I've read, 60% of women are F's, while the same % of men are T's. This means, of course, that more than 1/3 of women are T's.

The take-home message to NT women: there are plenty of men who appreciate you.

 

[Kuu]

Attention all female NTs: Could you please upload your personalities to a p2p service so we can download and install them on the local girls? Their hardware works fine, but their current software sucks. Thank you for your understanding.


Yesterday I was talking to a female friend that is supposedly INTP. I've been analyzing her for a couple of months. I was playing on her about being "too feminine" and she told me that most people tell her she's like a man, and most of her friends are men. But I see her be very close and publicly showing lots of affection (read: mushiness) with her boyfriend (who's a confirmed INTJ). So... I'm not so sure about the scenarios Cognisant put forward...

 

[echoplex]

The take-home message to NT women: there are plenty of men who appreciate you.

Attention all female NTs: Could you please upload your personalities to a p2p service so we can download and install them on the local girls? Their hardware works fine, but their current software sucks...

Word.

 

[Ermine]

Likewise, the men where I live need a software update:

intuitive-men-talk-to-ermine.exe

But I see her be very close and publicly showing lots of affection (read: mushiness) with her boyfriend (who's a confirmed INTJ). So... I'm not so sure about the scenarios Cognisant

I could see both happening, perhaps in succession. I don't have much experience to back this up with, but I can see an NT couple experiencing that nearly telepathic connection, and once they get more comfortable over time, the physical affection ensues.

 

[chocolate]

One particularly acute aspect to being an INTP female, at least in high school, is that I tend to intimidate most guys. I'm not submissive, I can hold my own in their areas of expertise (math, science, computers, sports, etc.), I never dumb myself down, and I'm not outwardly emotional. Essentially, I catch them off guard since I'm not like the rest of them and I'm no "damsel in distress". Therefore, my dating life is nearly nonexistent. It does get better after high school, right?

Haha, ditto Ermine. I can hold my own with any guys and usually just end up being one of them. And if I have something wittier to say than a guy, I'll just say it. I have to say it gets respect though.

My dating life in high school was nonexistent too, but yes it does get better The things that were valued in high school (my experience) have very little to do with the things that are valued in university.

I sometimes wish I were F, but being INTP has its perks. I've found that many of the stereotypically emotional, sensitive, girly girls I know actually admire me for the assets I sometimes view as faults. They like me for my independent mind, my thick skin, my creativity, my frankness, my "wisdom". Whenever I feel inadequate due to my insensitivity, I just remember that others feel inadequate because they lack my traits.

This is a good perspective to keep in mind. I have noticed I have a couple of girl friends (and guys too) younger than me who seem to look up to me and be amazed at my life. I'm happy to be a role model for sure, but it's likely a lot to do with the things you mentioned which is mostly the NT stuff! Yay

 

[didyouknow]

All I can say is 'Woah!' in response to this. It doesn't matter how many times I visit this site, I'm still astounded by how much all of your words echo mine. It's kind of creepy in a way.

My mind isn't stereotypically feminine at all, other than being attracted to guys. However, like echoplex said, I am emotional, but I don't really know what to do with those emotions. I have my caring moments. I'm just not outwardly emotional or prone to physical contact.

Holy crap, Ermine, you stole my name and the words right out of my mouth! Prone to physical contact? That's a no. But that also depends on the sort of relationship. I hug my Mum because I know she's a feeling type so she appreciates it and I hug my Dad because I only see him about once a month so I feel happy.

Though sometimes, my lack of emotional output leads my mum to think I don't care about her, which actually confuses me. It's hard to see it from their point of view.

One particularly acute aspect to being an INTP female, at least in high school, is that I tend to intimidate most guys. I'm not submissive, I can hold my own in their areas of expertise (math, science, computers, sports, etc.), I never dumb myself down, and I'm not outwardly emotional. Essentially, I catch them off guard since I'm not like the rest of them and I'm no "damsel in distress". Therefore, my dating life is nearly nonexistent. It does get better after high school, right?

Haha, that's a definite yes. Actually, I occasionally get told to stop "using big words" :P Dating life definitely non-existent.

I sometimes wish I were F, but being INTP has its perks. I've found that many of the stereotypically emotional, sensitive, girly girls I know actually admire me for the assets I sometimes view as faults. They like me for my independent mind, my thick skin, my creativity, my frankness, my "wisdom". Whenever I feel inadequate due to my insensitivity, I just remember that others feel inadequate because they lack my traits.

Well, I certainly hope so. I've heard that only from feeling types actually (my best friend INTJ has an almost superiority complex) but I was so confused when it happened. It's usually easy for me to understand how other people work but when it comes to their perspectives of me I'm utterly confounded.


Thanks everyone for explaining your views. It's really interesting to see just how similar we are. Also, I think it'd be interesting to see if people can guess the gender of the other people on the forum :P

 

[Dissident]

about what I mean by less feminine, I suppose I mean less desirable by a man, for a longterm relationship. I tend to attract people pretty easily, but don't have the truly attractive qualities that it seems are supposed to go along with being female (warm, gentle, more on the submissive side, naturally sensitive to feelings and naturally interested in feelings, softer personality, less independent -- this is not a very good explanation I know, just off the top of my head when I picture what I mean by feminine).

Weird, I would think it's the other way around. I believe those traits you mention attract most men only at a basic, primitive level. It gives them a sense of power, of being in control, of knowing what to expect because of clearly defined and differentiated roles, all of this with also a sexual tinct. I can see this appealing men on short term, for the crush period when the fantasy takes over; once things go further or for more mature people who went through it already, things are different. You need someone who walks besides you, not behind you, you need someone who is able to deal with things by herself, who can make decisions, someone who can challenge you, who you can have meaningful conversation with, someone with a bit thicker skin that won't get depressed because you don't say "I love you" enough times a day, etc.

 

[Artifice Orisit]

Yesterday I was talking to a female friend that is supposedly INTP. I've been analyzing her for a couple of months. I was playing on her about being "too feminine" and she told me that most people tell her she's like a man, and most of her friends are men. But I see her be very close and publicly showing lots of affection (read: mushiness) with her boyfriend (who's a confirmed INTJ). So... I'm not so sure about the scenarios Cognisant put forward...

My scenarios were purely hypothetical; there are many reasons why NT people would engage in an F style relationship. Due to the rarity of NT couples and the F dominated media it is entirely likely that they were acting as F types because they feel it is expected; or possibly their relationship is based mostly upon chemistry and sexual attraction (would I be wrong to assume they're in their teens or early twenties?). Now that I think of it we may need a thread for the discussion of NT love & romance, in hope of escaping the F type conventions.

Attention all female NTs: Could you please upload your personalities to a p2p service so we can download and install them on the local girls? Their hardware works fine, but their current software sucks. Thank you for your understanding.

I'm imagining matrix style head plugs, if done well the "wired" look could be very hot. (have I just devised a new fetish?)

 

[chocolate]

Thanks everyone for explaining your views. It's really interesting to see just how similar we are. Also, I think it'd be interesting to see if people can guess the gender of the other people on the forum :P

Yes. Very weird. I am still not sure how much I share in common with you guys. A lot of the things in this thread could have come out of my mouth too! Sometimes I wonder if my years developing my Ti have made me a bit different than the typical entp. I'm really not sure...but I find the entp forum tended to lack the depth that I crave...maybe I'll start a thread about it...

Your question is very neat I find it hard to guess personally! Actually once I fantasized about joining the forum without saying my type and seeing if anyone could guess (without trying to pretend I'm an INTP or anything), but then I thought that seems a bit dishonest.

 

[Oblivious]

I'm imagining matrix style head plugs, if done well the "wired" look could be very hot. (have I just devised a new fetish?)

More holes more fun.

 

[cheese]

I am really surprised by how Fe I seem to be in relation to everyone. I am very interested in feelings and in the feelings of others. I'm just impatient when they're excessive or take precedence over reason. I'm also more interested in logical analysis, defining and categorising than pure emotional sensation. But I cannot relate to the "robot" stuff that a lot of you seem to experience.

Am I a fraud?

Or just a giant P, lacking all other distinguishing characteristics.

I'm glad you women are out there earning points for the female sex. But I often cannot hold my own with men. In intellectual discussions it's not usually a problem. But I know next to nothing about technology. I don't think I'm particularly good at math etc. In many ways I am not confident. Also I am weak and tend to let people walk over me rather than stand up for myself. I strongly value independence but I'm very disorganised and end up needing help, and I'm physically small-ish, so guy friends offer to help me carry things. I am a big giant mess but I'd rather be left to die alone in my hole than get help. Are there any NT women out there like me or am I a big fake all by myself?

 

[Seducer of the Homeless]

I feel kind of the same. in many things as what you just said. not all, but many

 

[cheese]

Seducer:
Are you talking to me or someone else?

 

[chocolate]

I'm glad you women are out there earning points for the female sex. But I often cannot hold my own with men. In intellectual discussions it's not usually a problem. But I know next to nothing about technology. I don't think I'm particularly good at math etc. In many ways I am not confident. Also I am weak and tend to let people walk over me rather than stand up for myself. I strongly value independence but I'm very disorganised and end up needing help, and I'm physically small-ish, so guy friends offer to help me carry things. I am a big giant mess but I'd rather be left to die alone in my hole than get help. Are there any NT women out there like me or am I a big fake all by myself?

Technology stuff -- I know nothing. Navigating the forums was a challenge for me!

Hey if guys want to carry my bags...I'm all for it! I like to be treated like a girl in that respect.

But when it's a battle of wits...there's no holding back!!

edit: I missed part of your question sorry! Yeah my P is strong and I can seem 'helpless' because of it. I used to be more of a pushover, but I'm working on it. All Fe and no Fi means I always care about others more than myself. But I'm starting to see that I matter too.

 

[Minuend]

I used to be more boyish at a younger age. I didn't want to be associated with, well, backstabbing gossiping girls. But now, I don't see girls like that anymore. Both men and women have their good and bad sides. And I think it's kind of destructive, labeling men and women too easily. There are always exceptions, anyway.
I guess you could say I embraced my femininity. I realized that I could take care of myself, and at the same time care about more meaningful things. I learned that everything I, do don't have to be meaningful and serious. I learned that I could care about clothes, and it wouldn't automatically make me superficial. It wouldn't make me inferior. This was an important realization for me. Now I have about equal masculine and feminine traits.

I would never want to replace my T with an F. I get along well with girls with well- developed Ts. And they have always been around. And most of my friends that are boys, have had well- developed Fs, or been Fs.

I take pride in who I am, good and bad.

 

[loveofreason]

I am really surprised by how Fe I seem to be in relation to everyone. I am very interested in feelings and in the feelings of others. I'm just impatient when they're excessive or take precedence over reason. I'm also more interested in logical analysis, defining and categorising than pure emotional sensation. But I cannot relate to the "robot" stuff that a lot of you seem to experience.

You're not on your own when it comes to a fascination with analysing emotions.

I'm interested in the way emotions function, I'm interested in their limits and peak expression. They are an utterly entrancing landscape, of which I wish a bird's eye view.

I think that is the critical thing. I want to see, understand, describe and draw it all from a distance, but to be thorough one must undergo what one observes. I really enjoy the adventures of ground-truthing my maps - so long as I can retreat! I can't live there 24 hrs a day.

I simply can't recover from the overwhelm without adequate analysis time. I'm truly just an alien observer. The human samples I collect are experience. And emotional experience is just so... rapturous. Both the good and bad of it. The extremes are like an altered state. In fact they are. Fascinating.

And the universal polarity thing transcends all culture, though gender norms are an expression of it.

 

[FacetiousPersona]

Of course they will appear less feminine on average. The traits stereotypically associated with females will be lower.

 

[Halcyon]

Stereotypical feminine attributes are things that appeal more to sensors and feelers. This is not surprising since the majority of females are sensors and/or feelers. An affinity for clothing seems very sensory, as well as the desire to have clothes "match" (something I never really understood). What I would expect from an NT girl as opposed to a typical SF girl is a difference in their interests and what they care about. My school is filled with girls who love pop celebrity culture, the Jonas Brothers, and reading Twilight (well at least its a book). But their thoughts don't really extend beyond this shallow domain of interests. Then again I could make the same generalizations about guys saying that they just like sports and getting drunk. An INTP from either gender is going to stray from the conventions of masculinity or femininity. Having intellectual interests is an attribute of an NT and is one thing that would set an NT girl apart from her more feminine SF counterparts.

 

[Mud~Eye]

I am really surprised by how Fe I seem to be in relation to everyone. I am very interested in feelings and in the feelings of others. I'm just impatient when they're excessive or take precedence over reason. I'm also more interested in logical analysis, defining and categorising than pure emotional sensation. But I cannot relate to the "robot" stuff that a lot of you seem to experience.

Cheese

You're not on your own when it comes to a fascination with analysing emotions.

I'm interested in the way emotions function, I'm interested in their limits and peak expression. They are an utterly entrancing landscape, of which I wish a bird's eye view.

I think that is the critical thing. I want to see, understand, describe and draw it all from a distance, but to be thorough one must undergo what one observes. I really enjoy the adventures of ground-truthing my maps - so long as I can retreat! I can't live there 24 hrs a day.

lor

This is great being able to identify so well with other women, without too much effort. And not just what I think, but the way I feel in a situation is often mirrored here, and that is the part that kills me (in a good way).

Having said that, I think it stands to reason that we, meaning all people, would need to stretch ourselves, if we want to grow. I think we're going to do that in different areas of our lives according to what is needed and when, perhaps, intuitively. And, if not, I know inspiration for that has come for me through experiences and examples. (So has pushiness, but I'm not talking about that kind of faulty encouragement).

Feelers can take risks on emotional levels that I can't. For me, it truly is like jumping in the deep end without knowing how to swim. I know that today. Being patient in these matters and going slowly, but actually taking risks in accordance with a degree of preparedness, are really good ideas for people like me, I think. I'm particularly glad to know that I'm not the only one who likes to think about these things, and wants to learn more. Maybe a thread on this would be a good place for us all to share what we're learning in that area of our lives. I don't know if I'd be brave enough, though.

More on topic, I often felt less than feminine compared to most women. Have any other women here ever wondered what "women's intuition" really is? I didn't know, until more recently, that I had something that is called intuition. I can tell you that I could not, at all, make sense of what women that I knew called intuition. This was very mystical to me and it became one of those really defining qualities that "real women" have, along with a nice rack, that I just don't have. At varying points in my life, I often wondered why I wasn't dating girls, rather than boys. But, that hasn't been the case. I am starting to see why I have often said with exasperation, "I need a wife!".

I go through phases with clothes, when I'll make more of an attempt. But, i don't even have that art thing that some of us have, so putting together an outfit is just, well, it's not going to be pretty. Jeans and a T-shirt most times, or for dressing up a little more - slacks and a blouse that never quite looks right no matter how neutral or color coordinated. I've usually gotten away looking more feminine in a ladies suit. Slacks or a skirt, usually the former. I look better, and feel better. Man, they're easy too. Matching jacket and bottoms and a plain cut shirt underneath, splash of color. Yada yada. Shoes, same color! Yay. Does not help, though, when the call for dressing up is not business attire. I understand what's called for, but can't seem to get those things into my closet. Of course, shopping is not as fun for me as it is for many women. And, there goes half the conversations one could have and activies one could do with women friends.

 

[cheese]

Choc:
Yay!

Although I really do have a major problem with guys carrying my things for me. I know it's helpful and more efficient, but in these ways at least I'm fiercely independent, and fear losing this and myself to the more powerful male. The worst thing is when someone I'm interested in me offers this act of chivalry. I decline of course, but they insist and sometimes I end up giving in so that I don't "reject" them in any way. This invariably leaves me with a curious combination of pain and joy, which sickens me. It matters - TOO much - that they want to help me, and that I'm now "bound" to them in some way, and at the same time - I'm bound to them in some way! Aaargh! And of course any admission of these feelings is simply further and unwanted proof of my emotional dependence on them. (Sorry, too much self-disclosure!)


"But I'm starting to see that I matter too."
What a sad little line! I'd say my heart bled for you if it didn't mean instant eviction from the NT ranks. Oops, I shouldn't have admitted that.

Pness = helplessness. Finally, MBTI has disproved the myth of the superior male!


Lor:
So you're not averse to experiencing emotions? Because a lot of the INTPs I've come across seem to be (although perhaps they're the younger ones). Even here though I'm not sure if I share this "fear" of emotion. Excessive emotion is distasteful, but when it is an appropriate response to the situation I don't see it as a problem or as something to be feared unless it inhibits rational judgement, although personally I suppose I try not not to engage in any emotional displays myself, unless it's excessive happiness.

What I have so far:
Your first priority is to understand, and in order to do that you wish to experience, but only a suitably limited amount. This you enjoy, but what you enjoy (and need) more is the subsequent analysis. Is this correct?

"I'm also more interested in logical analysis, defining and categorising than pure emotional sensation." - cheese

I've thought about this, and I'm no longer sure this is accurate. I think the best moments in life come from emotion. The "aha!"/sense of satisfaction gained from grappling with and conquering an intellectual problem is as much an emotion as the feeling you get when you see a loved one. Perhaps what Ts are scared of is emotion that arises from interpersonal relations, and so is not subject to their sole control.
I suppose I'm quite wary of emotions like this. I also fear emotional ties. I do get emotionally attached however (quite easily I think) and do not have major problems understanding my own emotions or others'. Do you relate to any of this? I am trying to understand where you, and other Ts, stand.

Most of the above is possibly wrong. I think self-reporting is extremely difficult and fairly dodgy. I think the problem is that there're exceptions to most of the "rules" we think we observe in our lives, and this confuses us, making the generalities hard to pick out and confirm.

"Feelers can take risks on emotional levels that I can't. For me, it truly is like jumping in the deep end without knowing how to swim." Mud~Eye

This sounds quite a bit like what I'm trying to say! However I'm not sure if it's true. My INFP friend is very risk-averse emotionally. In fact in a few ways she seems quite T, although I'm sure she hasn't mis-typed. Also in some ways I feel more inclined to just jump right in and see how I fare than her. This is more a recent development though.

I will think about all this further. All the MBTI dichotomies are interesting for me, although the T/F one is proving the most problematic.

Choc: hope I haven't messed up your thread! Here, have this:

 

[Ermine]

Feelers can take risks on emotional levels that I can't. For me, it truly is like jumping in the deep end without knowing how to swim. I know that today. Being patient in these matters and going slowly, but actually taking risks in accordance with a degree of preparedness, are really good ideas for people like me, I think. I'm particularly glad to know that I'm not the only one who likes to think about these things, and wants to learn more. Maybe a thread on this would be a good place for us all to share what we're learning in that area of our lives. I don't know if I'd be brave enough, though.

I often use a similar metaphor: I'm a in a school of fish while learning how to swim. In my life, all the risks I can take are emotional ones. Perhaps it's because I don't view things as risks if I know what to do. I really wish I could find out what to do to prepare for emotional risk, but it seems the only way to gain emotional experience is to take the risks. It's driving me nuts! It feels almost like diving off a 50 foot diving board. I've been told what to do over and over, but I still don't know what to do until I try it out. One wrong move and I can get hurt badly. All I can do is think about what to do, realize I don't know what I'm doing, do nothing, and start all over again.

Although I really do have a major problem with guys carrying my things for me. I know it's helpful and more efficient, but in these ways at least I'm fiercely independent, and fear losing this and myself to the more powerful male. The worst thing is when someone I'm interested in me offers this act of chivalry. I decline of course, but they insist and sometimes I end up giving in so that I don't "reject" them in any way. This invariably leaves me with a curious combination of pain and joy, which sickens me. It matters - TOO much - that they want to help me, and that I'm now "bound" to them in some way, and at the same time - I'm bound to them in some way! Aaargh! And of course any admission of these feelings is simply further and unwanted proof of my emotional dependence on them. (Sorry, too much self-disclosure!)

That really bugs me too, especially if I am having no trouble with what I'm doing. Not only does a manly act of chivalry infringe on my independence, but to me, it implies that women are still viewed as inferior. I find that offensive, though I know all the guys opening doors and carrying things for me have good intentions.

So you're not averse to experiencing emotions? Because a lot of the INTPs I've come across seem to be (although perhaps they're the younger ones). Even here though I'm not sure if I share this "fear" of emotion. Excessive emotion is distasteful, but when it is an appropriate response to the situation I don't see it as a problem or as something to be feared unless it inhibits rational judgement, although personally I suppose I try not not to engage in any emotional displays myself, unless it's excessive happiness.

I hope I can get to that point. I don't have a fear of emotion as I do of things that reliably trigger certain emotions. For example, there's only one book I know of that can make me cry every time. I totally lose myself in that book, and as soon as it's finished, I get really mad because I hate having my emotions being tugged around every time by a mere book. It's demeaning for me.

 

[cheese]

Ermine:
"it implies that women are still viewed as inferior"
Yes, that's instinctively how I feel too, although I think it's a mistaken reaction. I have no doubt that some men at least still view us with old chauvinistic eyes, but the fact remains that we are, in general, physically weaker than men, and there're many out there who genuinely want to help, just as we would help an old person. Also I've noticed that most people are unable to accurately gauge the amount of weight a person can handle - I've had grown women leap to help me with measly little stacks of mere nothings.

"I hate having my emotions being tugged around every time by a mere book. It's demeaning for me."

I think this might relate to what I said earlier:
"Perhaps what Ts are scared of is emotion that is not subject to their sole control."

I think Ts resent having the control over something belonging to them - especially something as powerful as emotions - taken out of their hands. I think the issue here is not so much the fact that it's a book, but that it's an external force exerting influence on your emotions, and you find this offensive.
I suppose you could also try not to think of it as a "mere book" - it could be a work of art, or at least well-written, and in that case you're responding to Beauty and not to mere paper. A good book should have that power over you.
Which book is it by the way?

 

[Ermine]

Charly - Jack Weyland. However, it's hard to understand unless you're LDS. I imagine any similar book would do this to me. The teary part was when a man's wife was dying of cancer, and the wife was the kind of person I'd like to have as a spouse (though male in my case), so it got too close to home. The book got me too attached to the character.

 

[didyouknow]

On the note of experiencing emotions, I have a slightly weirder view, it seems. Though I don't like to express it to other people, I do enjoy studying it, mostly by studying myself. There have been few movies/ tv shows that have ever made me cry. Forrest Gump because he reminded me of my father (before he got better), and a few others I can't name at the moment.

After realising I was crying, I went to my room and proceeded to make myself cry harder to see if I could influence my own emotions and tried to analyze them. It was actually very interesting

I'm not afraid of emotions, I am afraid of not being able to control them. Though this has already been stated, I wonder how many people have tried to control them on a regular basis (like me).

I think some people are confusing a lack of empathy with NTs... though I suppose it's more likely people with aspergers will type as INTP, that does not mean all INTPs have aspergers. Are we stereotyping ourselves??

 

[cheese]

Ermine:
What's LDS?

didyouknow:
Yes I think there is definitely a tendency to stereotyping, even among us. It's hardly surprising though considering the type system is founded on the basis that you can accurately sketch patterns of generalities and use them to predict some specifics. The problem is when the specifics aren't actually related to the theory behind the type.

That's interesting experimenting of yours. How far did you manage to influence yourself? (I usually try to reason away feelings I don't want. Some of this has been quite successful, which leads me to believe that at least a portion of our emotional responses are conditioned.)

 

[Ermine]

Ermine:
What's LDS?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

 

[didyouknow]

@ cheese: Well, I found it much easier to make myself experience certain emotions than stop myself from feeling certain emotions. Also, recognition is key. If you want to stop a certain reaction, first you have to realise what is happening before everyone else. You have to locate the source of the reaction and reason yourself out of it as soon as possible. The more time you take, the less reason available (though this only really applies to strong emotions, weak one's are relatively easy to reason out of).

Sometimes though, it's a reaction (such as anger) to injustice to you or to someone else. I found these to be the hardest to suppress. This is because you understand the reason behind your reaction and can even sometimes justify it. Then you would be going against your own logic.

There's also some interesting science behind this... I'll come back and edit this later with a link

 

[cheese]

^ I didn't reply because I was WAITING FOR THAT LINK! Ah well.

Yes to recognition. There have been times where just before I register an emotion, I catch myself out - I can feel my conditioned brain going "oh yes, this is what is done in these situations". These responses are not genuine so I try to weed them out.

When suppressing what seem to be real emotions however I am less successful, but it still works to an extent.

 

[didyouknow]

Seems there is a limit to the editing, but I kind of expected that.

Basically people have been theorising from an evolutionary standpoint that reptiles have no emotion centre and their emotions are limited to self-preservation and agression, mammals have a more complex emotion centre and higher mammals (like apes and humans) have both of these sections, plus a developed neocorex, the centre of rationalisation and thought processes. Here's a basic link (since I can't find a proper one):

http://www.healing-arts.org/n-r-limbic.htm

Here's a more complex link that involves analysing other journals and a very long read concerning the true nature of emotions. This link is published, and therefore more reliable:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2597798

Sorry for making you wait, I kinda got distracted

 

[Dissident]

Seems there is a limit to the editing

24hs.

Interesting articles.

 

[cheese]

dyk:
Not a problem at all; thanks for providing the links! It sounds very interesting.

 

[Jesin]

Likewise, the men where I live need a software update:

intuitive-men-talk-to-ermine.exe

They're running Windows?

 

[Kidege]

In that case the update's even more urgent.

....


On topic /door opening issue:

Sometimes, a while ago, I'd go, open a door and hold it open for a male person. At first this happened simply because I was closest to the door and was distractedly trying to extend some courtesy.

And oh how I learned things about the specific male in question. I even did it a few times half on purpose, to see how some guys would react.

a) Some freaked majorly in a "you've insulted my virility" way. Needless to say these were never my friends. (And when they were I had to demote them sooner or later.)

b) Some were surprised, stopped and insisted that I should go first. These were mostly good acquaintances.

c) Some were surprised, smiled in the "yes, I know we're equals Kidege" way, and either insisted for me to go first or went first themselves. By this point we would both be smiling. And those guys -four in total- were my true friends (two of them were also the only guys I ever considered potential couples).


I know it's not exactly hard science, but it was telling. I'd be delighted to hear about any similar experiences.

 

[Artifice Orisit]

d) Walks through without a second thought, mainly because he does for people regardless of gender and just considers it a general curtesy. ie don't let a door shut on somebody's face.

...although this would explain the strange vibe coming from other guys when I hold the door after I've gone through and wait until they're through before letting go.
Well now I know

 

[chocolate]

d) Walks through without a second thought, mainly because he does for people regardless of gender and just considers it a general curtesy. ie don't let a door shut on somebody's face.

This is what I do, and from my experience is how it is for everyone. I've never gotten into trouble for holding the door for a guy, they just say thanks.

I'm sure a lot of this is cultural...I recall visiting Atlanta and there the men were very traditionally gentlemanly and would always insist I go first in line, etc.

 

[lindsayo09]

I've noticed there are many females here, but my question is for everyone.

More or less, what I am wondering is: Are female NTs less 'feminine' than other types? Sometimes I feel like I'm not girly enough as I have that NT edge and confidence that is really more valued in men. I'm a friendly person, but I'm not at all warm. I really do love my family and friends strongly, I'm just not very cuddly about it. I've been told by a couple of idealist guys I dated that I'm not feely enough.

in somethings i can me girly, when it comes to make up, shoes, fashion, hair, and pocket books but i am not all for the shopping, i hate it i want to go inget what i need and get out i don't want to look at every little thing in that store or try it on...ugh hate that!

guys like me because i am straight forward i don't hold anything back, and im tough always wanting to fight them and laugh when i pin them down, i hate watching chick flicks so this is good for them, they would rather take me to a scary movie and watch me pee my pants from laughing so ahrd (i don't get scared) i hate being all lovey-dovey guys if you want that ina relationship please don't look towards me.

i would rather keep to myself then talk to family but that is just me i have my bubble i am independent lol