Female Rationals

[juggernaut]

Example 2, Rational People
On the same park bench a different couple sit; not at opposite ends, but not sitting on top of each other either. Each is engrossed in a typical NT activity (web-surfing, reading, thinking, drawing, observing, etc) and so to the casual observer they may seem unaware of the others presence. Only the occasional verbal exchange takes place and it is in this brief moment that an outsider can sense the deep connection between the two.
Having previously established their feelings for each other these rationals don't require the constant physical stimulation to be aware of their connection. With subtle smiles, gentle body language and a myriad of other subconscious indicators the two are able to share an almost telepathic emotional link; all while they continue their intellectual pursuits.

So true! This sums things up beautifully. The dynamic I share with INTP I've discussed previously is very much like this. We've been in classes together for the past two years and over the last year or so it's gotten so that as soon as someone else says something that strikes us as strange (which is often) there's an immediate look...generally involving an eyebrow raise or nearly imperceptible smile/frown...which makes any further communication unecessary. As the months go by, the stretches of time spent together get longer and longer but the need to talk becomes less and less. I can sit and read or sleep or work while he writes and vice versa. The conversations are still great, better in that the need to explain and justify everything has diminished (mostly because it's all been done), but I no longer feel like I need to fill the space with talk talk talk all the time (I suppose I'm not a very good E, I get really sick of contact). It's quite a relief. He seems to make use of my obnoxious J tendencies, using them to meet deadlines, and I no longer worry about hurting his feelings by forgetting about him for a while while I'm wrapped up in other things. I've never had that luxury with an F. My TJ always ended up looking like a mean streak.

As an NT female, I've always felt like something of a mutant. I don't want to be touched or cuddled and I don't "get" all the slippery emotional stuff. I still feel that way much of the time, but I don't feel quite as alienated when in the company of my fellow mutants. We can "miss the boat" together...quietly and reasonably.

 

[Ermine]

They're running Windows?

^ or an equivalent file.

 

[Kidege]

This is what I do, and from my experience is how it is for everyone. I've never gotten into trouble for holding the door for a guy, they just say thanks.

I'm sure a lot of this is cultural...I recall visiting Atlanta and there the men were very traditionally gentlemanly and would always insist I go first in line, etc.

Yup, that particular behaviour's cultural. Unfortunately gender roles are very clearly -and stupidly- defined where I live.

 

[Kidege]

This is what I do, and from my experience is how it is for everyone. I've never gotten into trouble for holding the door for a guy, they just say thanks.

I'm sure a lot of this is cultural...I recall visiting Atlanta and there the men were very traditionally gentlemanly and would always insist I go first in line, etc.

Yup, that particular behaviour's cultural. Unfortunately gender roles are very clearly -and stupidly- defined where I live.

Practically the only guy I knew who would walk in w/o stopping first was my brother, who grew up with two rational females.

 

[jiarem]

Am I a fraud?

I have occasionally questioned my INTP identity, myself, but in the end, I'm fairly certain that I could not be a Feeler. I do not act like an INFP, and some INFPs have informed me that they actually think I might be INTJ.

I'm glad you women are out there earning points for the female sex. But I often cannot hold my own with men. In intellectual discussions it's not usually a problem. But I know next to nothing about technology. I don't think I'm particularly good at math etc. In many ways I am not confident. Also I am weak and tend to let people walk over me rather than stand up for myself. I strongly value independence but I'm very disorganised and end up needing help, and I'm physically small-ish, so guy friends offer to help me carry things. I am a big giant mess but I'd rather be left to die alone in my hole than get help. Are there any NT women out there like me or am I a big fake all by myself?

I have been complimented for my competence in technology, maths, sciences. However, I'm still not completely confident. I'm not insecure in the ways that girls typically are, I'm insecure about my true intelligence and wisdom. Am I really as intelligent as people tell me? Am I as intelligent as I think I am? Was this the right decision to make? I have self-doubt that, if I'm not careful, consumes me day and night.

As for being weak, I'm not sure. I do allow people to get away with a lot, since I don't care for confrontations. However, a number of people think that they have to protect me from people who would walk all over me, which is vaguely annoying. I don't mind doing small favors for people if it doesn't interfere with my plans, and this gets mistaken (especially by my slightly overprotective mother) for naivete and wishy-washiness.

Anyway, my mother has scolded me more than once for not acting "ladylike." She has interpreted my dressing habits to indicate latent transsexuality, and "reminded me" that I'm a girl. As if a tendency not to wear skirts and dresses necessarily implies that I'm butch. So yes, I would say that I probably do not display the traditional femininity. I also secretly dislike touchy-feely motions, get told to "stop using those big words," speak at the audience's level (my favorite), and don't get gushy over babies (although I almost melt for animals). I wasn't good at handling customer complaints because probably half of the customers were either idiots who wouldn't admit it when they were wrong or trying to scam me into giving them something for free. I surprise people with my sometimes dark humor, and I don't smile for no particular reason.

On the other hand, there was a thread in another group I participate in (specifically for NT females). It was suggested that it is not so much that NT females are necessarily devoid of all femininity, but redefine femininity and make it their own unique style.

Female NTs are much more likely to challenge gender roles than female SJs, as they're far less concerned with social acceptance (valuing autonomy over affiliation). They can feel "gender neutral"; attracted to pastimes, clothing, etc that aren't essential to either gender role. Many female NTs dismiss "girly" things (fashion, physical maintenance, etc.) as a vain distraction from their intellectual pursuits, while at the same time feeling a sense of longing for competence in those areas. Often they overcome their sense of frustration with traditional gender roles and develop their own, unique brand of femininity - some might even develop a "geekiness" over traditionally "feminine" activities which require competence and expertise; ex. encyclopedic knowledge of fabrics or how to assemble jewelry, or even the "alchemy" involved in cooking and baking.

Thoughts?

 

[Ermine]

I have been complimented for my competence in technology, maths, sciences. However, I'm still not completely confident. I'm not insecure in the ways that girls typically are, I'm insecure about my true intelligence and wisdom. Am I really as intelligent as people tell me? Am I as intelligent as I think I am? Was this the right decision to make? I have self-doubt that, if I'm not careful, consumes me day and night.

Me too. I'm quite confident in the in the areas where most girls are insecure. For example, I'm comfortable with my looks and weight, and I'm confident with tests and competitions, whereas many girls tend to put themselves down in those areas. But I am really insecure about my knowledge. People tell me I know a lot of things, but I keep on realizing how little I know.

Female NTs are much more likely to challenge gender roles than female SJs, as they're far less concerned with social acceptance (valuing autonomy over affiliation). They can feel "gender neutral"; attracted to pastimes, clothing, etc that aren't essential to either gender role. Many female NTs dismiss "girly" things (fashion, physical maintenance, etc.) as a vain distraction from their intellectual pursuits, while at the same time feeling a sense of longing for competence in those areas. Often they overcome their sense of frustration with traditional gender roles and develop their own, unique brand of femininity - some might even develop a "geekiness" over traditionally "feminine" activities which require competence and expertise; ex. encyclopedic knowledge of fabrics or how to assemble jewelry, or even the "alchemy" involved in cooking and baking.

I tend to see a lot of stereotypically feminine roles in a scientific way. I view cooking as chemistry, child care as psychology put to work, the psychology behind wearing flattering clothes, etc. If I don't understand something, I view it as a science and take it from there.

 

[jiarem]

Me too. I'm quite confident in the in the areas where most girls are insecure. For example, I'm comfortable with my looks and weight, and I'm confident with tests and competitions, whereas many girls tend to put themselves down in those areas. But I am really insecure about my knowledge. People tell me I know a lot of things, but I keep on realizing how little I know.

The last sentence is especially true. Also, people say lots of things, plenty are less than sincere, or are not well thought out. When people flippantly use the word "genius," for example, I cannot help but mentally wince. Then they apply it to me, and I wonder if they even know or ever thought about what genius is. (The same goes for the application of other words. There actually are some people who pass the credibility test. I still don't believe them.)

I tend to see a lot of stereotypically feminine roles in a scientific way. I view cooking as chemistry, child care as psychology put to work, the psychology behind wearing flattering clothes, etc. If I don't understand something, I view it as a science and take it from there.

Interesting. That's similar to how I tolerate some of my school assignments (relating it to something I'm actually interested in, that is a bit challenging). As for the cooking, I just view it as a part of independence (I don't have to rely on Mom or Dad or anyone else to make dinner for me), and it can actually be a bit fun. After all, this is food we're talking about. So long as I don't burn anything, we're good!

Although, I do tend toward the simpler foods that don't require too much preparation and cooking.

 

[cheese]

jiarem:
I related to a lot of what you were saying, especially the points about intelligence and weakness. The former is one of the most important things in the world to me, and the latter is as perceived by others (although I do tend to shy away from confrontation and genuinely prefer keeping the peace - probably a result of strong Fe).

I do allow people to get away with a lot, since I don't care for confrontations. However, a number of people think that they have to protect me from people who would walk all over me, which is vaguely annoying.

Yes! People tend to get very protective over me. They see me as a weak little thing requiring lots of hand-holding. Do you think this perhaps stems from lack of competency in other areas of our lives? I am exceptionally disorganised and often require last-minute help, and grovelling comes easily to me. This is almost always by choice (ie not getting the help and subsequently failing wouldn't bother me too greatly; I get help because it's easy), but I suppose it probably places people in positions of superiority and causes them to view me with benevolent condescension. It seems to be quite a potent mix for men, which is both annoying and useful. It also adds weight to the theory that humans are essentially self-centred people - allow them to one-up you and they will devote themselves to your survival. In doing so they ensure a continual ego-bolster, your own being their pedestal. This can be very useful for you; appearing weak has its advantages as long as you are not overly concerned about public perception of self.
It works the other way too, of course, ie if you appear very strong and capable people will also attach themselves to you for social benefits. However perhaps I am simply genuinely weak because the latter requires much more effort that I am generally unwilling to put in, and I don't seem to have enough strength of personality.

I do agree that NT females approach traditionally female roles and activities differently, and I suppose there's merit to terming that a new brand of femininity. However I have problems with the usual binary gendering so I might come back and revise my stance later!

 

[didyouknow]

jiarem:
They see me as a weak little thing requiring lots of hand-holding. Do you think this perhaps stems from lack of competency in other areas of our lives? I am exceptionally disorganised and often require last-minute help. I suppose it probably places people in positions of superiority and causes them to view me with benevolent condescension.

This is so true. I just came back from a camping trip and although I've been putting up tents and doing everything for years, my friends were acting like I was an incompetent child. I was tolerating it fine for ages but after a while I just got really angry. I got sick of people not trusting me to think for myself. It's not that I cared for my reputation, I just didn't like people questioning my intelligence.

 

[Yozuki]

In response to the original question, yes, female rationals are less feminine than the the normal populance. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. Just have a crowbar ready to pry them open.

 

[chocolate]

This is so true. I just came back from a camping trip and although I've been putting up tents and doing everything for years, my friends were acting like I was an incompetent child. I was tolerating it fine for ages but after a while I just got really angry. I got sick of people not trusting me to think for myself. It's not that I cared for my reputation, I just didn't like people questioning my intelligence.

hahaha I just have to third this. I have a male friend who continually treats me like this. Can he do this for me, do I need that, this? (he's an SJ btw) Sometimes I just want to scream "I'm OK". It is true I tend to be disorganized and childlike, and I appreciate the practical help. But being NP doesn't make me an idiot (not in every way).

(sorry for the rant )

 

[cheese]

dyk and choc:

Yes!

and choc, I hadn't even thought of it that way - of course it's the NP that does us in! Especially the P! That makes so much sense. N makes us, er, seem scatterbrained, and P means we do it a lot and don't get anything else done!

 

[truthseeker72]

Fascinating discussion. Several years ago, a female friend of mine asked me to describe my "type." After thinking about this for a few seconds, I replied: "a woman who looks feminine, but who has a masculine edge to her." Upon reflection, however, I now realize that what I really meant was: a woman with traditionally feminine beauty, but with NT thinking and behavior. Back then, I was only vaguely aware of MBTI. My point is that NT traits are not inherently masculine, (plenty of men are SF's), but some people who subscribe to outdated stereotypes believe that they are.