ExTJ assholes and reacting more in the moment

[GYX_Kid]

i guess it's my default nature to deal with them strategically and be more in my head than 'in the moment', which always manifests as passive-aggressiveness. then later i have a tendency to have bottled up rage from not letting it out overtly, and if i can't go to their house and assault them i'll become depressed.

the catch is that i didn't care about them or feel much of a need to do that, before the personal regret and feeling of insufficient justice. if i had "squashed the mosquito before it turned into a beast" i'd have judged them as being someone i don't like, and just would have coldly avoided them before i had any more reason not to like them. that requires increasing the J skill, maybe. (and just being less bored.)

or i could work more on being more defensive/arrogant than ENTJs, and more alpha-macho than ESTJs (actually using the vice-versa counterparts on each might work interestingly)...though playing their game has a feeling of defeat in its own way.

has anyone ever been at war with a narcissistic type? what else would someone do to help themselves while getting over perfectionistic regrets?

 

[Bird]

i guess it's my default nature to deal with them strategically and be more in my head than 'in the moment', which always manifests as passive-aggressiveness. then later i have a tendency to have bottled up rage from not letting it out overtly, and if i can't go to their house and assault them i'll become depressed.

Hahahahaha. You're hilarious.
I think most of us would agree
that you cannot go to their
house and assault them because
then you'd become rejected from
society. But it's really interesting
that you find the primary reason
to be that it would make
you depressed. Perhaps though
being rejected from society would
cause you to become depressed
so they may be synonymous in this
context.

the catch is that i didn't care about them or feel much of a need to do that, before the personal regret and feeling of insufficient justice. if i had "squashed the mosquito before it turned into a beast" i'd have judged them as being someone i don't like, and just would have coldly avoided them before i had any more reason not to like them. that requires increasing the J skill, maybe. (and just being less bored.)

or i could work more on being more defensive/arrogant than ENTJs, and more alpha-macho than ESTJs (actually using the vice-versa counterparts on each might work interestingly)...though playing their game has a feeling of defeat in its own way.

has anyone ever been at war with a narcissistic type? what else would someone do to help themselves while getting over perfectionistic regrets?

I think it's really unreasonable and childish of
you to behave in this manner. If you do not
get along, if there is something that you
cannot stand about them, then don't be
around them. They are never going to change.
And let's be honest, tweaking yourself in
this manner isn't really positive growth. It's
a great way to be an asshole though.

 

[GYX_Kid]

so you'd probably suggest avoiding them before giving them any ability to fill me with regret and resentment.

this issue is really rooted in being what IMO is too passive, too uncaring, too optimistic. acting (or failing to act) in that way, has a bad aftertaste in my situation but only after analyzing my nonaction in the past. i think my backbone is sufficient for when it's completely necessary, but as a male i might feel better with balls hanging out more than necessary. in other words, i've tended not to let myself get fucked, but have let myself get shit on. and it's because i only care when judging the 'replay scene.'

in even more other words--
people say, "don't feed the troll," "ignore the bully," etc. the 'strong silent type' (what i've tried to be and feels more natural) would take their shit and brush it off, acting like they're nothing. a bitch would act all offended, and might try to prove why they're better. a good medium (AKA man) might figuratively hit them with a baseball bat and drive them away, if they went too far over the line. though i get too perfectionistic and idealistic like this.

 

[SkyWalker]

ExTJ....prone to being narcissistic bastards!

who makes the most malignant narcissist: ESTJ or ENTJ?

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

They require a reason to respect you. The reason for respect is gained through actions. It is quite simple. However, ENTJs are more likely to respect you for intellectual or academic pursuits.

 

[Bird]

so you'd probably suggest avoiding them before giving them any ability to fill me with regret and resentment.

this issue is really rooted in being what IMO is too passive, too uncaring, too optimistic. acting (or failing to act) in that way, has a bad aftertaste in my situation but only after analyzing my nonaction in the past. i think my backbone is sufficient for when it's completely necessary, but as a male i might feel better with balls hanging out more than necessary. in other words, i've tended not to let myself get fucked, but have let myself get shit on. and it's because i only care when judging the 'replay scene.'

in even more other words--
people say, "don't feed the troll," "ignore the bully," etc. the 'strong silent type' (what i've tried to be and feels more natural) would take their shit and brush it off, acting like they're nothing. a bitch would act all offended, and might try to prove why they're better. a good medium (AKA man) might figuratively hit them with a baseball bat and drive them away, if they went too far over the line. though i get too perfectionistic and idealistic like this.

Hmmmm. I think I spend too much
time inside of my head to really
get your problem. I'm having a
hard time understanding you.

This could possibly be attributed
to the fact that I am a fairly passive,
laid back person. Unless I feel
attacked. But I'm trying not to
take things so personally. I
find human nature fascinating
and it's fun to observe. Which
is easier to do when you're
quiet.




I wish you all the luck though.


I really have a hard time seeing
you as a passive person. Even
in this post to me you seem
quite defensive.





Do you wish to be considered
an "alpha male"?

 

[EyeSeeCold]

GYX_Kid, I understand exactly how you feel. My mother is an ESFJ and she is always on the offense when it comes to me and my problems. Because I am usually passive I don't say anything in the moment, but when it is over, I become angry at the fact that I did not do anything to prevent my reproaching. It just fosters repressed feelings of anger which feel like hate, which makes me feel even worse because I don't like to hate people. However the solution is not to fight back, you must remove yourself from the situation if they are not willing to to treat you as an equal and respect your boundaries.

If you do not
get along, if there is something that you
cannot stand about them, then don't be
around them. They are never going to change.
And let's be honest, tweaking yourself in
this manner isn't really positive growth.

+1

 

[GYX_Kid]

I really have a hard time seeing
you as a passive person. Even
in this post to me you seem
quite defensive.

outwardly passive against nonthreatening external stimuli, since the world could disintegrate before my eyes without my caring to blink....internally defensive against post-event, offensive internal thoughts. they just translate to "the event that happened in the past that's now over".

Do you wish to be considered
an "alpha male"?

haha, perhaps in particular ways. i don't go out of my way to be arrogant or show off any machoness...being naturally passive it feels like doing that would stem from insecurity...but on the other hand there's the occasional context where it's like "there was no excuse not to be aggressive there"...just would be inappropriate if not handled aggressively.

Because I am usually passive I don't say anything in the moment, but when it is over, I become angry at the fact that I did not do anything to prevent my reproaching. It just fosters repressed feelings of anger which feel like hate, which makes me feel even worse because I don't like to hate people.

exactly.

 

[gnome]

i guess it's my default nature to deal with them strategically and be more in my head than 'in the moment', which always manifests as passive-aggressiveness. then later i have a tendency to have bottled up rage from not letting it out overtly, and if i can't go to their house and assault them i'll become depressed.

the catch is that i didn't care about them or feel much of a need to do that, before the personal regret and feeling of insufficient justice. if i had "squashed the mosquito before it turned into a beast" i'd have judged them as being someone i don't like, and just would have coldly avoided them before i had any more reason not to like them. that requires increasing the J skill, maybe. (and just being less bored.)

or i could work more on being more defensive/arrogant than ENTJs, and more alpha-macho than ESTJs (actually using the vice-versa counterparts on each might work interestingly)...though playing their game has a feeling of defeat in its own way.

has anyone ever been at war with a narcissistic type? what else would someone do to help themselves while getting over perfectionistic regrets?

I have been in this situation too many times to count. People who are unaware of the MBTI etc who just kind of live in the moment living life to the fullest will use INTP against you. They will shit on you and will continue to the rest of your life. They don't realize that you simply don't care. Later when you analyze the situation its too late. I tend to just avoid the situation completely. I don't put myself in situations where I can get shit on anymore.

I can't count the amount of times I have replayed a situation and realized wow I should have said something. At the same time I have said something and even owned the person. It usually doesn't go well. INTPs have an incredible ability to use vocabulary to deconstruct someone's entire ego in seconds. I have had situations where I destroyed someone and it sometimes ends with them getting severely angry.

Sometimes if you just say "fuck you". It works wonders. Or "you can suck my cock".

I honestly don't think we're passive aggressive. Its more like we're just observers analyzing the moment. It becomes passive aggressive when we stew in it because we sit and analyze the situation with logic and reason. It builds steam in us because we realize it could have gone differently. They violated our principles. They don't see our principles though.

Think of Cartman from south park. He's ENTJ. He's a total douchebag and everyone knows it. If you actually do own them with words they will just be like "screw you guys i'm going home." They don't see it the same way we do.

In my experience ESTJ's can be fucking evillllll.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

I can't count the amount of times I have replayed a situation and realized wow I should have said something. At the same time I have said something and even owned the person. It usually doesn't go well. INTPs have an incredible ability to use vocabulary to deconstruct someone's entire ego in seconds. I have had situations where I destroyed someone and it sometimes ends with them getting severely angry.

Man are these rare moments epic. I easily gather the information to do such a thing but rarely am I ever pushed so far.

Think of Cartman from south park. He's ENTJ.

I've always thought ENFJ.

 

[gnome]

Man are these rare moments epic. I easily gather the information to do such a thing but rarely am I ever pushed so far.




I've always thought ENFJ.

Crap you're right he is ENFJ.

 

[EyeNTP]

Cartman an ENFJ? He's an evil sadistic bastard = ENTJ

Anyways, ESTJ are primitive limited minded douchebags. Just tell them to fuck off, or out alpha them. The key with ESTJ's is that they usually like to socialize around groups where they will be the highest alpha male, the most achieved, and deem themselves as kings of their tribes. Be warned that if you do try to combat their dominance, you may be rejected from the entire tribe.

I've had a situation where I felt sorry for an ENTJ and decided not to threaten his dominance since the group I was with were his peers and I didn't want to make him look like the weak dog of the pack.

 

[Cavallier]

They require a reason to respect you. The reason for respect is gained through actions. It is quite simple. However, ENTJs are more likely to respect you for intellectual or academic pursuits.

This. Very much this. If I'm angry with an ENTJ or an ESTJ it's because I think I've lost their respect. It's punctures your pride.

I suspect there is a lot of hurt feelings and hurt pride going on in this thread. This level of hate and frustration is actually quite alarming. If you were talking like this about homosexuals or a specific ethnic group we'd be throwing words about like "bigot" and "racist".

 

[Jennywocky]

This. Very much this. If I'm angry with an ENTJ or an ESTJ it's because I think I've lost their respect. It's punctures your pride.

In general, for ESTJs I've found that to be true -- beacuse they judge by very concrete standards and sometimes miss other possibilities. I have found that when I take the time to explain my logic and show myself as responsible, I earn their respect. They just happened to not be synced up with the framework I was approaching the situation through. They typically want practical results and not care as much for my abstracted ambiguous answers, so I've had to explain things in more relevant terms to them.


ENTJs tend to be worse. If I'm negative about them, it's because literally every experience I have had with an ENTJ has been a bad one... except for one, and she's a female with a strong Ni, so she can flex through and connect with Ne types.

Just about every ENTJ I've known has been insecure and used Te as a blugdeon in order to run over people in their path, and the N gets used to determine a convenient way to approach a situation so that no one's objections will be considered valid. A lot of insecurity there, and a lot of fear -- the guys in particularly have been emotionally naive and/or unstable and unable to sort through feelings or even acknowledge them. Out of the ones I've met, they've all got control issues and can't stand not being in charge.

I would love to meet a healthy ENTJ man, just so I could see what one looks like, but I still haven't run across one. If there is one here, please write; I'd love to chat.

I suspect there is a lot of hurt feelings and hurt pride going on in this thread. This level of hate and frustration is actually quite alarming. If you were talking like this about homosexuals or a specific ethnic group we'd be throwing words about like "bigot" and "racist".

Well, like I said, the abuse quotient is pretty high with ETJ because they are very aggressive, and it's likely that INPs have become unwilling victims. So the feelings are understandable... but you're right, the bigotry is not.

What I describe is my actual experience, but I've always been hoping for more than what I've gotten from them.

I think rather than lashing out at the ETJs, the INPs need to get tougher, learn how to stand up for ourselves, use our adaptability/flex as a strength to slip out of their controlling strategies, and start giving them back who we are rather than just fleeing from them... make them actually listen and hear how we see the world.

The one thing that really wins some respect from ETJ (or sends them running for the hills) is standing up to them. Everything else seems to be read as cowardice. So be bold and fair and flexy and cool-headed. They're not as scary as they come across -- like the big boogeyman who actually can't hurt you when you stand your ground.

 

[Cavallier]

I agree with most of the things you've said here Jenny. I suspect I find myself defending them so much because I've known a couple healthy ones. It never crossed my mind that they might be prone to insecurities. The two that I know are self-confident and kind. It's those traits that drew me to them. They both fail at not being blunt and direct but I thought INTPs would appreciate those traits. I suppose they are aggressive and I can see why that might put certain people off. I guess I don't find that aggressiveness intimidating. In my experience more of the INTPs I've know are more arrogant than my ENTJ acquaintances.

I completely agree that you have to stand your ground. I stood my ground early on with both the ENTJs I know and they immediately respected me more for not folding even if they thought the point I made was wrong. I told one the first time we had an argument (The first time we met actually) he was in danger of coming off as an asshole if he didn't start backing up his claims. He actually laughed. Then again, I grew up with a particularly manipulative and aggressive ENTP so nothing phases me now.

My advice to all those of you who don't get along with ENTJs and ESTJs is the same as Jenny's. Stand up to them. Look them in the face and tell them why they are wrong. Either they will respect you for standing up to them or their egos will be deflated. Either way they will think twice before treating you like a doormat.

 

[Gather_Wanderer]

Jut sort of echoing the last two posts here.

If you are interested in their respect, when you say that you have to stand up to them, you are correct. ETJs can be relentless verbal attackers and will use your typical INP methods of communication against you, especially in situations in which other people are around to be made witness; most of your points and logic won't get across unless you have the time to explain them and they use this as an opportunity to continue attack whatever you say before you finish it. My knowledge of this is from dating an ESTJ woman last spring (Oh god please don't do it unless they've matured a bit. It's just not worth your curiosity, which is how I ended up in the situation in the first place.) and from a much older (than me) associate of mine, also ESTJ.
One of my sisters is an ENTJ, but we don't conflict much at all. She's never pulled any sort of control thing with me, basically because it's known in my immediate family that I'll automatically resist any sort of unexplained intrusion into anything having to do with me at all.




Also, whenever I have been cool-headed in conflict with them (usually begins that way), it always seems to drive them up the wall.

Edit: Too, if you do sit there and maintain your cool throughout an entire conflict, they may come back later and apologize. Then you'll know you've won that battle.

 

[GYX_Kid]

whoa, i remember this thread

I think rather than lashing out at the ETJs, the INPs need to get tougher, learn how to stand up for ourselves, use our adaptability/flex as a strength to slip out of their controlling strategies, and start giving them back who we are rather than just fleeing from them... make them actually listen and hear how we see the world.

The one thing that really wins some respect from ETJ (or sends them running for the hills) is standing up to them. Everything else seems to be read as cowardice. So be bold and fair and flexy and cool-headed. They're not as scary as they come across -- like the big boogeyman who actually can't hurt you when you stand your ground.

My advice to all those of you who don't get along with ENTJs and ESTJs is the same as Jenny's. Stand up to them. Look them in the face and tell them why they are wrong. Either they will respect you for standing up to them or their egos will be deflated. Either way they will think twice before treating you like a doormat.

that's what i did at that time i was having regrets about this past experience. i felt perfectionistically inadequate for not having gone "all the way" and beaten him up or something before he fled seeing as i had autonomy

i guess hunting him down better than he did would be too mirrored-narcissist


Edit: i think this person may have been a highly repressed and disturbed ENFJ sociopath

 

[Agapooka]

Sometimes if you just say "fuck you". It works wonders. Or "you can suck my cock".

I've done similar. Sometimes, I find that if I don't want to expend the energy required to interact with particular people; making interaction with me undesirable works wonders.

most of your points and logic won't get across unless you have the time to explain them and they use this as an opportunity to continue attack whatever you say before you finish it.

Actually, I have a way to circumvent this: force them to explain themselves. Don't defend your position: ask questions that will force them towards your position.

"Why this? Why not that? What about A?"

I find that it's very egocentric to want to "win" an argument or anything. If someone is presenting an idea and it is unambiguous and sound, then there is nothing more to add. If it is ambiguous and/or unsound, then questions can be asked to seek clarification and/or cause the consideration of possibilities that had not been considered. Assumptions can be underlined. Etc.

If the offender is adamant to his position, then a more detailed explanation can be attempted, I suppose. It really depends on the context. Sometimes, early detection of unjustified assumptions is a useful asset, because those assumptions will eventually serve a conclusion - a conclusion that may be used to manipulate you.

Agapooka

 

[EFM]

I know a bunch of nice E[S/N]TJ... you just have to realize half the time they do this because they just love to attack and defend and attack and defend and attack and defend... but after awhile you can get used to it and they'll get used to you...

 

[Abraxas]

First observe their behaviour in a crowd and after a while it shouldn't be too hard to see their weakspots, poke it as long as you can see their eyes moisten.

 

[Agapooka]

Once, I was in a position of authority over an ENTJ and I fired him.

That was... interesting...

I hesitated for the longest time ever.

I believed he was an ENTJ, but I never confirmed it. I do recall that he was pissed and he used his strengths to try to gather people against me. I hated this job...

The reason why I fired him was because he was more of a liability than an asset. He was also in a position of authority: an authority that he enjoyed wielding, but that he never used for the benefit of the whole group.

 

[joser1978]

I have recently been at war with two assholes from work. One, who i will call Rick James. is an ESTP. The other guy is an ESTJ. These two like to talk a lot of shit, RJ likes to "help" people and is very inquisitive about one's personal business. After he finds out dirt about you he will go around the office spreading rumors. He also like to tell you about how you shouldn't yell at your wife, or says shit like, "you should treat her nicer" , but this motherfucker has had at least three failed marriages......anyway. The point is that I knew I did not like this guy from the start, but I always treat people how I wanted to be treated, so the whole time that these clowns were acting like my friends, I had already had them figured out months in advance before I started having trouble with them. So when shit finally boiled over, after they were spreading rumors about me, I decided to play their high school game. I started acting out of my character; by being extroverted, talking with people, going to the smoking area to smoke (which I dont ever do)...etc. I made a lot of friends with those people that didnt know me, but only heard shit about me from these two. Even though these two walked around the building like they own the place, and were friends with just about everyone there, I told people what these two were about. I told them things that I knew that I did not wish to know about them, confidential things that that some of these people shared with these two. RJ later confronted me out in the parking lot and threatened me, I filed a police report and he was written up and suspended for two days. I learned from a previous experience in High school that there are serious consequences to beaten the shit out asshole ESTJ's that like to humiliate you in front of classmates and trip you during football practice. I feel good about this experience because, I did not know that I can be extroverted person when I really need to, and I because I kept cool during this situation even though my professional reputation was being tarnished, and personal life criticized. There were so many times that I controlled myself and fought urges to want go and beat the shit out of him.

 

[EditorOne]

Lots of latent violence here. Not good.

Someone commented about how he treated people the way he wanted to be treated. Try this instead: Treat them the way they want to be treated. That opens up the horizon. How does an ENTJ want to be treated? Not the way we do, but consider the possibility that what we consider intrusive bluntness is not just something ENTJs and SJs dish out, it's also what they expect to receive. A lot of stuff being held back for fear of looking like an ass is probably not going to be received badly after all.

Don't avoid confrontation when confronted.
Do strive to avoid situations leading to confrontation, the way you'd step around cow manure in a pasture.

Bafflegab is available as a deflection technique. "I'm sorry, could you repeat the question?" "It wasn't a question." "Well why are you wasting my time if you don't have a question?" Think of yourself as Groucho Marx or something (I assume that's classic enough even for teenagers to get the allusion?)

And back off the physical solution. That might have worked once in awhile back when I was young, but these days it's just going to lead to counseling sessions with tiresome people, black marks in your book of life, etc. Besides, physical usually involves pain and pain is bad.

 

[Bird]

Hm. Does this have something to do with your father?

 

[GYX_Kid]

Alright, who necromanced this turd-child of my past confusion...I'm closing this and making a related but new and more...focused thread

 

[pjoa09]

assholes are assholes. bitches are bitches. I don't see MBTI in it. That is my very vague statement.

Just flow along.. when you gotta go then you gotta go. They will learn that way that you also need toilet time. Believe me. They do learn.

Another vague statement:

Every extrovert has the potential of being an Alpha-Douche. No offense to the extroverts on the forum.