Dreams and the Subconscious

[Yubbie]

I don't believe that dreams are merely mental reconfigurings of collected sensory data and surpressed thoughts. I believe they are the different manifestations of the spirit world and lucid dreaming is about approaching oneness with the spirit, however I believe the holy spirit dwelling in me also affects my person in my dreams. One thing I can say is that there are indeed spiritual houses which the spirits live in, including oneself.

 

[Cognisant]

Here's a dream to analyse,

In an elevator with an older woman, the elevator cable snaps and it drops a few floors but I'm not really bothered by this because I know elevators have like half a dozen separate fall-arrest systems. The lady is shaken but I'm calmly explaining this to her while feeling annoyed that we're going to need to be rescued, I've got things to do and places to be, it's such a hassle. Then the elevator drops again, the poor old duffa is practically having a heart attack and I'm just bored, then it falls over sideways?

There's light coming in between the doors so I pull them open and we're out in a grassy field, it's all very bright and cheery, very anime-esque. The lady stays to await rescue while I go exploring, after all it's not everyday you get Narnia'ed to an anime fantasy realm.

I end up in a human town where mushrooms are sacred because there's a ring of them around the town (white and about a meter tall) that keep the Skaven away, somehow. I'm hungry, I have no cash in my wallet and I doubt anyone here has eftpos so I go looking for work. I realise I'm a modern man in a practically Renaissance era town so I show them how to process fungi into a leather-like fabric which is a bit hit because this fabric retains the mushroom's magical harm-warding properties.

I then start a Skaven rehabilitation program, turns out their society is shit because they tend to die young and all the elders are at most teenagers, apparently abusing warp stone is not good for life expectancy. There's an Elf helping me, tall snooty bastard but he's smart enough to be worth tolerating, anyway we manage to found a small community of respectable Skaven, haven't been able to fix that verbal tic but they're healthy, well mannered and hair brushed.

And then I woke up.

 

[birdsnestfern]

Here are my different types of dreams. Lucid dreams, Astral Travel dreams where I believe I really travel around the world and visit places. Daily Grind dreams that are nothing more than Purging the day, Psychic Dreams where things actually come true a year or even a decade later, and Soul dreams where your spirit/soul wants you to remember something or learn something and Fear or Chasing or flying dreams.

 

[Old Things]

Last night I had a very weird dream.

It was a dream where I was trying to grow marijuana for some reason. At first, someone showed me how to do it. They put the seeds down in the dark dirt. Then it was my turn. For whatever reason, I had to keep this secret. So I invented my own way to plant marijuana seeds. It required getting a very tiny pot with just a little dirt and putting the seed in the dirt. But for whatever reason, I kept losing the seeds when I went to put them in the pot. So because this didn't work, I went to go check on the marijuana from the person who taught me how to do it. For whatever reason, they were under a cement slab that was broken. So I look under the cement slab and there is the marijuana growing like vines for some reason on the underside of the concrete slab. So then I had to invent a new way to plant marijuana seeds. This time, I was in a car trying to do it and once again I couldn't let anyone know what I was doing. I remember trying to plant the seeds by folding them up in a special (magical?) material that was supposed to help them grow. How they were supposed to grow when they had no light and were covered up is beyond me. I then put it in my pocket and checked it every once in a while. And it occurred to me I wasn't doing it right. Then the dream ended.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

I then start a Skaven rehabilitation program, turns out their society is shit because they tend to die young and all the elders are at most teenagers, apparently abusing warp stone is not good for life expectancy. There's an Elf helping me, tall snooty bastard but he's smart enough to be worth tolerating, anyway we manage to found a small community of respectable Skaven, haven't been able to fix that verbal tic but they're healthy, well mannered and hair brushed.

You made me want to play a Skaven campaign in Total War Warhammer

 

[Hourglass]

I have dreams where there are people chasing me for something, or I am chasing after something to get somewhere else.

I would love a dream where I don’t feel this “chasing” sense. The chasing makes my dreams feel more “nightmarish”.

I don’t currently see a way to control my dreams.

 

[ZenRaiden]

I have dreams where there are people chasing me for something, or I am chasing after something to get somewhere else.

I would love a dream where I don’t feel this “chasing” sense. The chasing makes my dreams feel more “nightmarish”.

I don’t currently see a way to control my dreams.

Very simple one, and common.
Its when there is something in your life you have no control over, but there is urgent need to resolve it.
In some dreams it is usually duty to do something you are not ready to do, or don't want to do yet. Or have too little time to do your way.

Or you feel pressured to do something against your own wish, but you have to do it and its out of control.

Most dreams are about how we relate to the people and information related to the people.

Basically I learned that dreams are symbolic, but the feelings they elicit are real in real life.
So you gave yourself the answer already. But it might require you to think where you have less control than would be ideal. Most of us have something like that in life.

don’t currently see a way to control my dreams. LIFE.

Take it easy though, because sometimes dreams reveal more than we can handle on day to day.

 

[Hourglass]

I have dreams where there are people chasing me for something, or I am chasing after something to get somewhere else.

I would love a dream where I don’t feel this “chasing” sense. The chasing makes my dreams feel more “nightmarish”.

I don’t currently see a way to control my dreams.

Very simple one, and common.
Its when there is something in your life you have no control over, but there is urgent need to resolve it.
In some dreams it is usually duty to do something you are not ready to do, or don't want to do yet. Or have too little time to do your way.

Or you feel pressured to do something against your own wish, but you have to do it and its out of control.

Most dreams are about how we relate to the people and information related to the people.

Basically I learned that dreams are symbolic, but the feelings they elicit are real in real life.
So you gave yourself the answer already. But it might require you to think where you have less control than would be ideal. Most of us have something like that in life.

don’t currently see a way to control my dreams. LIFE.

Take it easy though, because sometimes dreams reveal more than we can handle on day to day.

Thanks, Doc.

 

[Hourglass]

something in your life you have no control over, but there is urgent need to resolve it.
In some dreams it is usually duty to do something you are not ready to do, or don't want to do yet. Or have too little time to do your way.

Or you feel pressured to do something against your own wish, but you have to do it and its out of control.

This describes exactly my state of being…

My dreams feel like being in a videogame where the only option is to move to the next level. Staying at the same place or “level” means I’m at risk of being kicked to a lower level or “losing” altogether or being moved to an unknown place. But I don’t “try” to make movement in my dreams, a movie plays and I am taken through scenes whether I like it or not.

And oddly some of that feeling does parallel how I feel in real life, only I’m not necessarily trying to “win”. I’m trying to protect myself from getting hurt.

 

[Hourglass]

Basically I learned that dreams are symbolic, but the feelings they elicit are real in real life.
So you gave yourself the answer already. But it might require you to think where you have less control than would be ideal. Most of us have something like that in life.

Good point, thank you @ZenRaiden

There is a lot out of my control, and at least a few areas of life where I have less control than would be ideal.

Some areas I feel I don’t have enough control in:
-Societal and social hierarchy
-Responsibility of adulthood - I feel like I moved into normative standards of adulthood too fast but can only go faster
-Expectations from family
-Affordability in cost, time, energy of things I want to do or learn but cannot do until maybe a few years later
-The future in general
-Creative fulfillment - I should probably find the right avenue for pent up potential energy

Generally I have a good handle over my life and the direction it takes. I feel confident about the future. So there is probably something in my subconscious and unconscious that is irking me.

Maybe I’ll try the whole positive affirmations thing. That is kind of a bandaid but sometimes a bandaid is better than nothing, I suppose.

 

[Old Things]

I usually (like 99% of the time) don't remember my dreams but I remembered my dream last night.

I dreamt that a childhood friend's father was coming towards me and I was trying to prevent him from getting to me. I used different weapons and such to throw at him but he just kept coming.

Odd dream and not a fun one. It was scary.

 

[ZenRaiden]

Maybe I’ll try the whole positive affirmations thing. That is kind of a bandaid but sometimes a bandaid is better than nothing, I suppose.

I used to think this stuff does not work. But I think it does. Only problem it only works long term. Short term it really is just that affirmations. Long term it restructures the way you think and act, hence actually makes difference.
What they should tell people that it has to be really often and long term.
Because it does not really make much difference in short term.
Its kind of like dripping drop of water makes a hole in the stone kind of thing.

 

[ZenRaiden]

something in your life you have no control over, but there is urgent need to resolve it.
In some dreams it is usually duty to do something you are not ready to do, or don't want to do yet. Or have too little time to do your way.

Or you feel pressured to do something against your own wish, but you have to do it and its out of control.

This describes exactly my state of being…

My dreams feel like being in a videogame where the only option is to move to the next level. Staying at the same place or “level” means I’m at risk of being kicked to a lower level or “losing” altogether or being moved to an unknown place. But I don’t “try” to make movement in my dreams, a movie plays and I am taken through scenes whether I like it or not.

And oddly some of that feeling does parallel how I feel in real life, only I’m not necessarily trying to “win”. I’m trying to protect myself from getting hurt.

Not sure this helps, but I am chronic underachiever, and I used to worry about missing out on life. And I did, but now 35 years, I realized that a lot of things I worried about were not that important anyway. What I missed out on really was stuff I did not realize I was missing out on.
If you narrow focus on certain things you might end up missing out on certain things you have already at reach vs things like future that might not even be that important once you get them years from now.
Hard mindset for INTJ mind to have, but if you are in 20s and think forward too much you might actually realize once you are at the next level it will be irrelevant.
INTJs change a lot when they develop.

 

[Hourglass]

I realized that a lot of things I worried about were not that important anyway. What I missed out on really was stuff I did not realize I was missing out on.
If you narrow focus on certain things you might end up missing out on certain things you have already at reach vs things like future that might not even be that important once you get them years from now.

A fair set of points.

Some INTJs have categorical importances. It seems like a self-defensive mechanism sometimes or preferred state.

 

[EndogenousRebel]

Our conscious mind is essentially just a holding space for information, and while it's not doing that it is developing a personality and maintaining an illusion of control.

When we're doing math, when we're deciding on what we're going to eat. All these ideas and bits of information are coming from the unconscious.

I've been doing some nuerofeedback training with a device that looks at the oxygenation (w/ infrared light) of a small part of the frontal lobe, and it's weird seeing in real time that my conscious effort is kinda moot.

Sure when my mind is wondering and I'm putting together thoughts vertically my blood flow will go up, but as soon as I hit a conclusion, it stops.

Like I said, consciously just trying to will myself to have higher blood flow on that specific part of my brain just doesn't work.

It's recommended that you just pay attention to the game. You have to perceive that the positive feedback of the game is good, and through operant conditioning it eventually becomes a cue for your brain to behave in such a way.

It's wild to me that a part of the brain that is so associated with self and personality isn't more influenced by what's going on in my head. Perhaps this is because it's on such a small part of the brain?

I've done other neurofeedback, with an EEG device that senses brainwaves, which is a little more nuanced than blood flow. With that I felt that once I achieved a certain feeling, I could maintain that feeling and rack up a higher score.

This fNIRS device has been a whole other experience, and it's lead to me being disillusioned with a lot of what's going on in my head. I've always known that most of the things one thinks up during the day is probably nonsense if spoken out loud. But the complete resignation of consciously trying to control my bloodflow to a process out of my control, based on stimuli I didn't really care about (positive reinforcement in the game) really makes you lose investment in a lot of what you're thinking about.

Then again maybe this is just because the part that's being trained deals in processing rewards that I'm shifted by this so suddenly.

Well, turning this into a positive, I've started to think about what pieces of information do I want to keep in my head on a daily basis. Not so much in a controlling way. I've already said that this control is illusory. I mean in a way that enhances freedom in thought.

 

[Black Rose]

Our conscious mind is essentially just a holding space for information, and while it's not doing that it is developing a personality and maintaining an illusion of control.

I recently learned of the salience network.

It decides what is important to pay attention to and it is involved in task switching.

Basic intelligence is a parallel task manager.

Whether those tasks are internal or external can depend on whether working memory is conscious (inner voice or inner vision) or unconscious (happens automatically).

What matters is how the task is done.

A set of combinations in 3D temporal space.

These are all possibilities known currently, mixed together.

That way an arrangement can be done where what fits together can be matched to the completion of the task.

The brain makes an assessment on the order of all parts in the mind going together.

And decides what task takes priority in error corrections.

 

[Hourglass]

Maybe I’ll try the whole positive affirmations thing. That is kind of a bandaid but sometimes a bandaid is better than nothing, I suppose.

I used to think this stuff does not work. But I think it does. Only problem it only works long term. Short term it really is just that affirmations. Long term it restructures the way you think and act, hence actually makes difference.
What they should tell people that it has to be really often and long term.
Because it does not really make much difference in short term.
Its kind of like dripping drop of water makes a hole in the stone kind of thing.

I found a better approach to positive affirmations which is first nullifying unreasonably negative sentiment (typically they are words from other people and not from within me) to reverse the negative feedback loop in a more detached rather than attached way.

Then finding a neutral-positive yet realistic statement to arrive at, and letting that statement ring true.

The way things feel for me right now is that people’s voices can live in my head and drown out my own voice, so I try to detach from that and talk to myself in a kinder way.

I think that directly affects my dreams and my sleep.

The hard thing about xNTx thinking is that sometimes it feels like a gift and a curse to have the ability to do unconventionally helpful things yet you also get used to feeling unpopular.

Sometimes unpopularity hurts.

I’m learning to let it hurt me less.

 

[EndogenousRebel]

Our conscious mind is essentially just a holding space for information, and while it's not doing that it is developing a personality and maintaining an illusion of control.

I recently learned of the salience network.

It decides what is important to pay attention to and it is involved in task switching.

Basic intelligence is a parallel task manager.

Whether those tasks are internal or external can depend on whether working memory is conscious (inner voice or inner vision) or unconscious (happens automatically).

What matters is how the task is done.

A set of combinations in 3D temporal space.

These are all possibilities known currently, mixed together.

That way an arrangement can be done where what fits together can be matched to the completion of the task.

The brain makes an assessment on the order of all parts in the mind going together.

And decides what task takes priority in error corrections.

My point being that most of the time, attention driven inward doesn't really change brain activity.

With the EEG it is getting a fuller picture of my frontal lobe, including my insula which apparently is associate with sense of self. So I guess it would follow more of my affective experience would influence the device.

That fNIRS device is only looking at brodman area 10, the orbital frontal cortex. I guess that just tells me that emotions aren't explicitly doing anything there for me. It does give me weird head rushes after the fact though.

 

[ZenRaiden]

Maybe I’ll try the whole positive affirmations thing. That is kind of a bandaid but sometimes a bandaid is better than nothing, I suppose.

I used to think this stuff does not work. But I think it does. Only problem it only works long term. Short term it really is just that affirmations. Long term it restructures the way you think and act, hence actually makes difference.
What they should tell people that it has to be really often and long term.
Because it does not really make much difference in short term.
Its kind of like dripping drop of water makes a hole in the stone kind of thing.

I found a better approach to positive affirmations which is first nullifying unreasonably negative sentiment (typically they are words from other people and not from within me) to reverse the negative feedback loop in a more detached rather than attached way.

Then finding a neutral-positive yet realistic statement to arrive at, and letting that statement ring true.

The way things feel for me right now is that people’s voices can live in my head and drown out my own voice, so I try to detach from that and talk to myself in a kinder way.

I think that directly affects my dreams and my sleep.

The hard thing about xNTx thinking is that sometimes it feels like a gift and a curse to have the ability to do unconventionally helpful things yet you also get used to feeling unpopular.

Sometimes unpopularity hurts.

I’m learning to let it hurt me less.

You know what. You are right. Been feeling bad lately, and you are absolutely right about this. When stuff gets in my head, it can pretty much ruin my mood for good amount of time needlessly.

 

[Black Rose]

My point being that most of the time, attention driven inward doesn't really change brain activity.

With the EEG it is getting a fuller picture of my frontal lobe, including my insula which apparently is associate with sense of self. So I guess it would follow more of my affective experience would influence the device.

That fNIRS device is only looking at brodman area 10, the orbital frontal cortex. I guess that just tells me that emotions aren't explicitly doing anything there for me. It does give me weird head rushes after the fact though.

ok, but that is with blood flow.

can focus be used to control though?

system 1 vs system 2

in some studies, people can raise or lower brainwaves at will?

I was describing the control mechanism of intelligence.

Your problem is letting go in certain areas of the brain but in the control mechanism of intelligence, we can direct what we hold onto and let go of because it is part of the goal-driven scheme. This is a conscience effort of cognition to get things in a position that is the goal. It is the realization of what is working and what is not working and then changing what it is we are doing. I am trying to distinguish the conscious from the unconscious in control. You seem to think that thinking is a totally unconscious process. Or that to work properly it needs to become an unconscious process?

I have the experience to know that when I had a hard time solving problems too difficult for me, I realized why I could not solve them and that was because the steps necessary were too great to hold in my head at any given moment. I had to work on them with pen and paper or I had to transfer the steps into long-term memory and access them later to work on the other steps. This is a very conscious effort on my part and I think most people give up when they cannot do things requiring a conscious effort.

 

[EndogenousRebel]

in some studies, people can raise or lower brainwaves at will?

No, it's mostly through operant conditioning. It's something you can learn to do, but it's a stretch to say "at will" when the process is mostly unconcsious through positive reinforcement.

But yeah, you can have control of specific brainwaves to some extent.

Technically, that bloodflow I'm getting should be beta/gamma waves seeing as they are associated with higher brain activity.

 

[EndogenousRebel]

Your problem is letting go in certain areas of the brain but in the control mechanism of intelligence, we can direct what we hold onto and let go of because it is part of the goal-driven scheme. This is a conscience effort of cognition to get things in a position that is the goal. It is the realization of what is working and what is not working and then changing what it is we are doing. I am trying to distinguish the conscious from the unconscious in control. You seem to think that thinking is a totally unconscious process. Or that to work properly it needs to become an unconscious process?

That may be my problem, but it's more that my conscious experience seems to have little influence over the neurofeedback.

I'm not saying that thinking is totally unconscious. I guess I'm more or less just shocked that I can't really perceive this aspect of my mental operations.

I'm more pointing to the fact that whatever is going on in our conscious mind for the most part is irrelevant until it is given some task. We don't pick our tasks per-say. That what we experience as ourselves is actually following something else that supersedes it, and yet we still put a lot of stock into our conscious mind (ego).

 

[Black Rose]

what we experience as ourselves is actually following something else

I do not think that is what it is like for everyone.

That is only if you are tied to the sensations.

And then it matters if you have a valence of good or bad attached to them.

People act on what they feel about their attachments but that means they are going to only do what is felt. They then are unconscious of reasons for things. They can only think in terms of actions and not the present moment of the inner space.

If you are not acting and instead just "being" then you are aware of the background processes. That is why I do not anticipate anything. I do not think about my actions or of myself or anyone or anything. Even the things that would seem like I know what I am doing are just instinctual. I know that what is happening is just a projection of the self. It is not even in my mind that something is going to happen, I just let it happen and so the meaning is between me and it as it is not what I think it will do.

I have no distinction in myself between sensations and the unconscious or even the good or bad of it because it just exists and I need to take no actions regarding them. What happens is that my felt experience is if the sensation will become good or bad so I can get away or go to it but not that it is good or bad in the first place. This is what the instinctual part plays in. The resources necessary to get what I want depend on not what I do but on what is in the world which again is myself. The way the world is is the way I am and to change the world is to change the self. I am not good when the world is not good. I am not content when I have left something unattended. But that has more to do with the self-being in the environment and not that it is a separate entity that must be changed but then actions are to not act on the external but on the self because the external is the self. Sensations are the self, what is unconscious is everything not in sensation.

This is what motion does, this is what sensation does to me. I am everything and being everything means I cannot separate the self from the environment. All my actions require me to think about how it will affect my self. not actions to get a result but actions that will have consequences for as they say "Karma", Is it good to manipulate anything, Is it good to act the way I do when the way I act will bring around a multivariant butterfly effect? It is not just about a convergent effect. Get to the goal at all costs, it is about the self-being in proper harmony. That means every action is part of that. I feel wrong or right when things are out of place.

So what am I talking about? I control nothing regarding what comes into me so there is no conscious or unconscious part of me. I do not make that distinction. The distinction I make is that actions are not anticipated or they are anticipated. I listen to what I need to do next so I can control where I listen that is my experience. If I listen then I will be told what to do next. I do not connect anything I do to any step-by-step process. So it confused me when people said this is what they do. It confused me when I became aware of people seeing everything as just objects to be manipulated. To me, anything I do has consequences for everything. Everything I do feels right or wrong, like littering or telling people off, because I am part of everything.

Anything I do must first feel right and then after thinking of all the things possible that may occur must be filtered into actions that will not mess things up. Then I can go step by step. I can and must be extremely careful. because I do not know what is going to happen, I must get everything straight at the moment, I do not plan far ahead. INTJ would anticipate every step that falls within a range of steps that lead to a point from b. INTP will start with a point and then form around it everything that branches off it so everything that exists basically. INFP is point A and everything around that point is B so everything must be put in place around the INFP or bad things happen, thus The steps necessary for the INFP to succeed in keeping A intact is to label everything as P positive or N negative and then find all paths away from N and all directions to P. Everything in the INFP between Si and Fi is the guide of the conduit. The vortex of the NP trajectories.

 

[ZenRaiden]

Front brain is there to diverge or converge.
If you diverge all the time there are too many variables.
To take acute action that is sensible you must always converge on something.
AK you seem to constantly diverge and branch out, but you never converge.
Which sets your mind up to be infinitely branching, but never acting.
Action requires you to go back to singular unit of thought.

 

[Black Rose]

Front brain is there to diverge or converge.
If you diverge all the time there are too many variables.
To take acute action that is sensible you must always converge on something.
AK you seem to constantly diverge and branch out, but you never converge.
Which sets your mind up to be infinitely branching, but never acting.
Action requires you to go back to singular unit of thought.

That is what the Fi dom and Si tertiary loop is for.

To keep on a goal I must remember what that is but I also need to keep in mind what can happen. So if I need to get back to Fi I must stop Ne and go into Si where it is a memory of what feels right or wrong in my experience of what has gone right or wrong in the past. but then Si will tell Te a new step to follow.

Si = gut/has bad-good vibes of the past brought to the present moment
Fi is the vibe of everything and my goals
Te is the one step in relation to Ne branches
Ne is the directions I can go in

then:

Ne going back to Si - is this a good or bad situation for what I want in Fi leading to the next step of Te. Te finds that step and Fi evaluates the consequences.

Fi goals -> Ne possibilities -> Si reactions -> Te steps to get back to Fi

 

[ZenRaiden]

That is what the Fi dom and Si tertiary loop is for.

To keep on a goal I must remember what that is but I also need to keep in mind what can happen. So if I need to get back to Fi I must stop Ne and go into Si where it is a memory of what feels right or wrong in my experience of what has gone right or wrong in the past. but then Si will tell Te a new step to follow.

Si = gut/has bad-good vibes of the past brought to the present moment
Fi is the vibe of everything and my goals
Te is the one step in relation to Ne branches
Ne is the directions I can go in

then:

Ne going back to Si - is this a good or bad situation for what I want in Fi leading to the next step of Te. Te finds that step and Fi evaluates the consequences.

Fi goals -> Ne possibilities -> Si reactions -> Te steps to get back to Fi

But how does it converge to action? I struggle with the same problem. I can split it up in million ways and see it from angles others don't.
Most people I know don't think or operate the way I do. Most people converge on action and do. I diverge and think a lot. For me thinking is almost same as action.
For most action is physical act, of operation and manipulation of to an end goal.

 

[Black Rose]

That is what the Fi dom and Si tertiary loop is for.

To keep on a goal I must remember what that is but I also need to keep in mind what can happen. So if I need to get back to Fi I must stop Ne and go into Si where it is a memory of what feels right or wrong in my experience of what has gone right or wrong in the past. but then Si will tell Te a new step to follow.

Si = gut/has bad-good vibes of the past brought to the present moment
Fi is the vibe of everything and my goals
Te is the one step in relation to Ne branches
Ne is the directions I can go in

then:

Ne going back to Si - is this a good or bad situation for what I want in Fi leading to the next step of Te. Te finds that step and Fi evaluates the consequences.

Fi goals -> Ne possibilities -> Si reactions -> Te steps to get back to Fi

But how does it converge to action? I struggle with the same problem. I can split it up in million ways and see it from angles others don't.
Most people I know don't think or operate the way I do. Most people converge on action and do. I diverge and think a lot. For me thinking is almost same as action.
For most action is physical act, of operation and manipulation of to an end goal.

Fi just compels me to act when the positive outweighs any neutral force and when the negative outweighs any neutral force.

Fe would feed the same way but this force would be positive or negative pressure on the actor from outside.

That means Fe has the will coming from extrinsic sources and Fi is an intrinsic source. Fx is the driver and compels any actions when built up inside or exceeding a pressure from outside. And is dependent on its position in the stack of functions.

 

[Hourglass]

The vortex of the NP trajectories.

Did you make this image?

I can only really speak to INTJ mostly that Se ends up mattering even though I wish it did not. So maybe Se neing included would create a better picture for INTJ.

At least for me (INTJ) Se is like in dots everywhere and the other functions try to minimize the Se negative effects.

There is not helpful Se and helpful Se.

The same applies to Fi, Te, Ni where they can also be helpful or not helpful and that will affect the flow of the lines.

But it is really interesting to see that that is what it looks like from others’ observation. I wish it looked that easy but it is still a wild jungle in this brain… haha.

Actually for me the self and goal can be flipped depending on the circumstances.

I spend so much time trying to not let Se things distract me like things on my desk or dessert foods or people who might be very unpredictable or chaotic. Only once I get past those barriers can I then even know what my own thoughts are. This is why I don’t understand Se-doms because I can’t see how you can let yourself be swayed by Se things because they can easily control your life. But there is good Se, for example taking a walk in a nice place.

Also I can put my goals so much higher in value than my own basic needs like eating or drinking food. So the goals don’t always lead to “self” on the other end. It is more about the world, I think.

That’s another Se thing: i see food as a checkbox. I still have a standard for food where I’m not going to eat out of a trash can, but if i eat something healthy it is a checkbox I checked off, for me, whereas for some people their lives revolve around healthiness.

It’s weird but I’m actually pretty selfless and trying to do good things for the world and the people around me but I have to lift myself up before I can do those things, so it is kind of like the whole saying of “you have to help yourself to help others”

 

[Black Rose]

The vortex of the NP trajectories.

Did you make this image?

I can only really speak to INTJ mostly that Se ends up mattering even though I wish it did not. So maybe Se neing included would create a better picture for INTJ.

At least for me (INTJ) Se is like in dots everywhere and the other functions try to minimize the Se negative effects.

There is not helpful Se and helpful Se.

The same applies to Fi, Te, Ni where they can also be helpful or not helpful and that will affect the flow of the lines.

But it is really interesting to see that that is what it looks like from others’ observation. I wish it looked that easy but it is still a wild jungle in this brain… haha.

Actually for me the self and goal can be flipped depending on the circumstances.

I spend so much time trying to not let Se things distract me like things on my desk or dessert foods or people who might be very unpredictable or chaotic. Only once I get past those barriers can I then even know what my own thoughts are. This is why I don’t understand Se-doms because I can’t see how you can let yourself be swayed by Se things because they can easily control your life. But there is good Se, for example taking a walk in a nice place.

Yes, I created the image.

I would say that because Te is inductive and forms a synthesis of things, the dots you describe are relatable. Ti breaks things apart so it works with Se in the way Iron Man views things in his holograms. Ni is in a background sense like as I would describe it is convergent because it is dom with tertiary in INTJ which means Fi gets feels of the preminitions of bad and good in all directions. But most of all in what happens, it is an anticipatory function. So motions are involved. All of a sudden something happens and you know it will happen. So Te means if you build something it will make other things happen. Se is pure in that it has traction to reality, an energy to reality. Fe and Se have phantasms, pressures, or forces, mystic, ghosts. Fi Se gets you attached or detached where you draw in or move away or feel nothing.

Si and Fi get into the body where it has a creep factor or pure pleasure chills, but it is more that Si is in tandem with sounds. But overall it is a reaction. Good or bad you react internally. There is a vibration in the spine, guts, and bones. Good or bad. Se will hate the color red or love it. Si will make you salivate or tingle or hunger/thirst. Anything physiological because of noises or texture. Se has in it sensuality because it craves more resolution of stimuli. Se wants to see more and more. Si and Ne get you into the realm of "what if". What if alien spaceships use magnets in a different way than normally perceived by our sciences? How can we manipulate magnetism to propel things? Si will tell you the right direction because Si will tingle because the idea is novel enough to possibly be correct. Ne craves novelty.

Ni this will happen -> Te synthesize a solution to change the future -> Fi Is this good or bad in what I want to be in the future -> Se is what you see in relation to expectations

Fi I have a firm understanding of good and bad for me -> Ne I find things novel in relation to what is good and bad -> Si I get tingles of what is out of the ordinary, can tell when things are not normal -> Te synthesize what will be novel and good

Ni this will happen -> Fe this is a good or bad outside force they must act for or against -> Ti break everything down in what this force contains -> Se see what this force is like component by component.

Ti breaks everything into principle components -> Ne sees all novel possibilities and breaks down each thing further -> Si detects when anything is not normal in that breakdown -> Fe sees what forces are at play and whether to act on them via the construct or analyze further this force.

 

[ZenRaiden]

Trouble with value systems and Fi they are inherently the driving force of our motivations and personal myths and expectations and theories about the world.
Ultimately we all have some foundational value system to work with at any given time.
Value systems have a strong confirmation bias to them, as values are often part of functional pattern of mind and how we model our behaviors and expectations.
Essentially we have patterns that emerge from these values, but if we shift around those values our mind can actually fail to function. Essentially any variation of value challenges our adaptations and inherent hierarchies of our neural networks of thoughts.
Therefore it is always good strategy to not change values, but adhere to them.
Ultimately we are creators of values.
Trouble is if we rigidly adhere to something we have a tendency to leave out the wiggle room for correction and wiggle room for growth.
Essentially all people struggle with this.
Because if the foundation of value is lost the motivation and action is lost with it.
So generally we are liable to adhere to something even despite it not working as well for us, relatively simpler than losing our marbles.
I think therefore all values must be a type of variable and treat it this way from get go lest we end up rigid.
Trouble is being too flexible also means losing sight of the end goal in the process.
We can easily go with values too far and too little to gain much.
That careful balance of values being to stiff and deadbeat and being like a deceitful snake is very challenging balancing act.
I think most people tend to err on side of being rigid.
Some people might err more on side of snake.
Either way stable values never exist, because we humans live long and we tend to experience and learn so much we tend to evolve.
I mean a rat lives for say 2 years. A human can live for 50 years and learn and experience quadrillion(meaning super many) of inputs and patterns, many of which are just super complex.
If we get rigid we tend to simply lose a lot more than if we get more flexible.
Trouble flexing values means one has to practice that. Its easy to get lost in the process and gamble away the life to randomness.

 

[Hourglass]

The

The vortex of the NP trajectories.

Did you make this image?

I can only really speak to INTJ mostly that Se ends up mattering even though I wish it did not. So maybe Se neing included would create a better picture for INTJ.

At least for me (INTJ) Se is like in dots everywhere and the other functions try to minimize the Se negative effects.

There is not helpful Se and helpful Se.

The same applies to Fi, Te, Ni where they can also be helpful or not helpful and that will affect the flow of the lines.

But it is really interesting to see that that is what it looks like from others’ observation. I wish it looked that easy but it is still a wild jungle in this brain… haha.

Actually for me the self and goal can be flipped depending on the circumstances.

I spend so much time trying to not let Se things distract me like things on my desk or dessert foods or people who might be very unpredictable or chaotic. Only once I get past those barriers can I then even know what my own thoughts are. This is why I don’t understand Se-doms because I can’t see how you can let yourself be swayed by Se things because they can easily control your life. But there is good Se, for example taking a walk in a nice place.

Yes, I created the image.

I would say that because Te is inductive and forms a synthesis of things, the dots you describe are relatable. Ti breaks things apart so it works with Se in the way Iron Man views things in his holograms. Ni is in a background sense like as I would describe it is convergent because it is dom with tertiary in INTJ which means Fi gets feels of the preminitions of bad and good in all directions. But most of all in what happens, it is an anticipatory function. So motions are involved. All of a sudden something happens and you know it will happen. So Te means if you build something it will make other things happen. Se is pure in that it has traction to reality, an energy to reality. Fe and Se have phantasms, pressures, or forces, mystic, ghosts. Fi Se gets you attached or detached where you draw in or move away or feel nothing.

Si and Fi get into the body where it has a creep factor or pure pleasure chills, but it is more that Si is in tandem with sounds. But overall it is a reaction. Good or bad you react internally. There is a vibration in the spine, guts, and bones. Good or bad. Se will hate the color red or love it. Si will make you salivate or tingle or hunger/thirst. Anything physiological because of noises or texture. Se has in it sensuality because it craves more resolution of stimuli. Se wants to see more and more. Si and Ne get you into the realm of "what if". What if alien spaceships use magnets in a different way than normally perceived by our sciences? How can we manipulate magnetism to propel things? Si will tell you the right direction because Si will tingle because the idea is novel enough to possibly be correct. Ne craves novelty.

Ni this will happen -> Te synthesize a solution to change the future -> Fi Is this good or bad in what I want to be in the future -> Se is what you see in relation to expectations

Fi I have a firm understanding of good and bad for me -> Ne I find things novel in relation to what is good and bad -> Si I get tingles of what is out of the ordinary, can tell when things are not normal -> Te synthesize what will be novel and good

Ni this will happen -> Fe this is a good or bad outside force they must act for or against -> Ti break everything down in what this force contains -> Se see what this force is like component by component.

Ti breaks everything into principle components -> Ne sees all novel possibilities and breaks down each thing further -> Si detects when anything is not normal in that breakdown -> Fe sees what forces are at play and whether to act on them via the construct or analyze further this force.

That is awesome. I felt inspired by this creation.

You seem to be very specialized in MBTI analysis. This seems like a unique strength you have to perceive across different MBTI types.

Have you ever considered going to work for a MBTI related company and just writing about the different personalities in length? I have 0 association or affiliation with any MBTI companies or psychology companies but I just thought of how I actually once bought an expensive report from one of the MBTI companies and I thought it was totally bogus and felt like a waste of my time (and $).

You could write or visualize your MBTI theories and make visuals of them but perhaps save them for a platform where you would get paid for them instead of giving them away to commonfolk like myself.

 

[Hourglass]

If we get rigid we tend to simply lose a lot more than if we get more flexible.
Trouble flexing values means one has to practice that. Its easy to get lost in the process and gamble away the life to randomness.

Finding the balance in adherence to value systems takes frequent recalibration. Some people recalibrate every second while others recalibrate once or never in their entire lifetime.

Those who never recalibrate might not be open to new ideas and have been taught a certain (religious or philosophical) way of thinking that enables either local authorities to override critical reasoning and logical and ethical thought or enables their own personal belief to never be adaptive.

Yet recallibration requires adaptation and those who cannot adapt might “evolve” at a slower rate, although evolution should not be measured by sheer fast changing and rate of change, as change can be chaotic or catastrophic and so if there is evolution being pursued it should be done with thinkers and those with morally sound personalities.

Pacing of recalibration matters. Finding that pacing can be more difficult for introverts but once found it is sustainable rather than as volatile as sensor needs.

Perhaps my existentialism makes me perceive that randomness can be streamlined.

I streamline randomness every day. It can be exhausting. But there is a way to do it without being drastic like some Te or Se doms that somehow make it up to high levels of (political) authority beyond my comprehension.

It seems (from my observation) that some Te-doms are good at cutting the line so to speak and doing it in what feels like unethical ways and manners. If you were say a Te or Se dom who exhibited bullying or discrediting traits, and born into say massive billionaire wealth then there is more privilege to act in whatever way is most self-serving and protective and society might be somehow willing (or unwilling pulled) into submitting to certain powers that be. One case of this might be generals of armies across the world - preparing to fight out of a feeling of global insecurity instead of preparing for a global new age of peace, intelligence, and enlightenment.

I.e. some ESTJs can unintentionally or intentionally create the effect of people bullying without even realizing. They have some need to control people but should redirect energies towards enabling peacefulness and could greatly learn from INFPs and ENFJs.

I almost find that a lot of my strenuous efforts are sometimes finding a way to protect unhealthy ESTJs from exerting unnecessary forcefulness or selfishness of narcissistic gain on those around them, especially introverts (others around me but myself included) in society.

 

[Hourglass]

For all the undervalued xNTx and xNFx, please find us (healthy) INTJs. (I suppose unhealthy INTJs need help too but are not always open to it. I can find myself surrounded by what I suspect may be unhealthy INTJs and feel when they shut themselves off from me)

Some of us are surrounded by people in power who are making illogical and ineffective decisions - this is not necessarily type-specific.

We need more MBTI intuitives (xNxx) to bring a sense of morality and good ethics to how we go about creating and dreaming for a more sensible future.

Sorry if this sounds like weird propaganda. I’m really just a woman INTJ who is tired of systematic fallacies, unhelpful biases, and oppressiveness that creates unnecessary suffering. These are the hindrances towards good people living out their dreams.

 

[Old Things]

Had a weird... experience this morning.

I was dreaming. In my dream, I dreamed that I got a box full of posters from one of the bands I like. The band is Demon Hunter. The posters came in a white box. When the posters came out of the box, there were like six or seven that came out. Then Ryan Clark, the lead singer of the band said, "You only get four posters." And I said, "Wow, this is great that I got four posters," even though I was disappointed I didn't get to keep all the posters from the box. Then, I kid you not, I heard an angel in my dream say my first name. The voice sounded sorta like my own voice, but like a younger version of my own voice, if that makes sense. I immediately woke up before my alarm went off.

 

[ZenRaiden]

uuuu thats spooky.

 

[Black Rose]

A man was in a pit and came up out of it to a stadium with lions.

He got on his knees and grasped his hand together head to the ground.

People in the stadium started to throw gold jewelry into the stadium center.

Everyone rushed into the stadium.

The man was not eaten.