Does Fi lead to a depth of understanding?

[KazeCraven]

Alternate title: Ti:Philosophy::Fi:Art

I've been thinking, for a number of reasons, that the understanding conveyed through art is more of an Fi-method of conveying understanding. The main reason being that images and sounds and semantic connotations (poetry) are more conducive to transmitting feeling tones.

Note that I'm only referring to art and philosophy as it relates to conveying or reaching understanding.

In addition to the question posed in the title, my other question is whether Ti is the primary function for seeking a depth of understanding or if other functions such as Ni seek such a depth.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

You are on the right track. I will try to give imagery to help you understand more easily.

Fi creates an inner world where there is a forest of trees that are deeply rooted with one another. With the helping function, Se, that inner world is focused outward and the forest of trees become all living beings. ISFP, which represents those functions the best, feels a connection to every living being and wishes for universal peace, or understanding.

Simarly, Ti creates an inner world of connected data centers that share tons of information at speeds of ∞Gb/s. Ne focuses the collected data outward and the connected datacenters become every object of matter (or the internet). INTP, thinks with a connection to everything in existence and wishes for universal intelligence, or understanding.

Ni does not search for depth, nor does Si. Ni has no intention of helping the world, it merely serves as a strategic advisor. The same goes for Si, but in a sense that it can feel the best way to do something. Ni says, "I just know it! Trust me." Si says "I can just feel it!"

In terms of art and philosophy, it is true that Fi+Se is more inclined to art because its feeling is projected onto physical mediums. Ti+Ne has a more intangible way of expression because its thoughts are projected into the air, philosophic discussions make a better medium. However that doesn't mean someone like an INTP cannot be good at art. Like I said before, the Si fuction is a strategic advisor and is helpful when arranging sounds (composing) or structures (sculpting, architecture, photography). Inversely, Si would make a much better critic of art than an artist and Ni would make a better critic of ideas than an actual philosopher.

I hope that helps.

 

[Sparrow]

You are on the right track. I will try to give imagery to help you understand more easily.

Fi creates an inner world where there is a forest of trees that are deeply rooted with one another. With the helping function, Se, that inner world is focused outward and the forest of trees become all living beings. ISFP, which represents those functions the best, feels a connection to every living being and wishes for universal peace, or understanding.

Simarly, Ti creates an inner world of connected data centers that share tons of information at speeds of ∞Gb/s. Ne focuses the collected data outward and the connected datacenters become every object of matter (or the internet). INTP, thinks with a connection to everything in existence and wishes for universal intelligence, or understanding.

Ni does not search for depth, nor does Si. Ni has no intention of helping the world, it merely serves as a strategic advisor. The same goes for Si, but in a sense that it can feel the best way to do something. Ni says, "I just know it! Trust me." Si says "I can just feel it!"

In terms of art and philosophy, it is true that Fi+Se is more inclined to art because its feeling is projected onto physical mediums. Ti+Ne has a more intangible way of expression because its thoughts are projected into the air, philosophic discussions make a better medium. However that doesn't mean someone like an INTP cannot be good at art. Like I said before, the Si fuction is a strategic advisor and is helpful when arranging sounds (composing) or structures (sculpting, architecture, photography). Inversely, Si would make a much better critic of art than an artist and Ni would make a better critic of ideas than an actual philosopher.

I hope that helps.

That was great. Wanna become the new Adymus? He's been MIA for a while.

 

[Words]

I think it's only Dominant Introversion that seeks depth. Ti =/= philosophy.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

I think it's only Dominant Introversion that seeks depth. Ti =/= philosophy.

Yes, although Ti+Ne is highly inclined to be interested in philosophy.

 

[KazeCraven]

@EyeSeeCold: Thanks. Yeah, I deliberately simplified things a bit, but still an interesting perspective.

I think it's only Dominant Introversion that seeks depth. Ti =/= philosophy.

Well yeah.

My point was just that, in so far as philosophy is a method of inquiry into understanding things, the primary function used for this would be Ti.

Same for Fi and art.

 

[JimHawkins]

Fi-Ne, I would say, will also lead one to have a propensity towards philosophy; same questions, perhaps less formally structured.* I think it’s more specifically the Ji (Introverted Judging, in case I haven’t got the shorthand right) dominants with Ne auxiliary that are most inclined. The study’s more open-ended search seems more compatible with Ne, but without dominant Ji, there’s not really much motivation to ask such questions. Ti seeks the understanding and categorisation on an impersonal basis; Fi seeks the same kind of understanding and categorisation but in relation to the self; to put the two together crudely, “What is the/my meaning of/in life?” Ti has the obvious advantage of being naturally wider in its enquiry, and therefore title of “Most Philosophically Inclined” of the two. Happy now?

Ni dominants just don’t really strike me as having the same kind of depth of enquiry; broad certainly, but not depth. INPs try to understand themselves in relation to reality, whereas INJs understand reality in relation to themselves (?). This making the Ji and Ne objectivity more philosophically appropriate. Furthermore, dominant Ni reasons unconsciously, sometimes reaching a conclusion inexplicably, and understands itself in certainties: given that much of philosophy is to question what one assumes by default, Ni doesn’t seem quite so congruent.

I think the link between Ni dominants = awesome philosophers (although not evident in this thread), has more to do with how Ni has become massively coveted rather than primarily any other basis (see, “So What Is Podlair?”, thread for Ni smarminess.) This seems to be a fairly common attitude amongst INPs looking at INJs; I certainly haven’t noticed it the other way around. (Side rant: just look at those INFP forums. Seriously, who wants to be an INFP? Although if all one’s experience of perceived Fi dominants is from those forums, it’s no wonder that Fi = art.)

Is this a reasonable understanding?

We haven’t actually addressed, in the same way Ti seems the most ready for philosophy, whether therefore it makes sense Fi is the primary function for art, since it’s been tacitly assumed this is philosophy's opposite. I just think in this case, it’s possible that Ni might be able to squeeze out Fi as most artfully inclined, especially if one takes a wider definition of 'art', like poetry for example. Thoughts?

*This has always seemed rather strange to me, almost contradictory. Before one can begin an open-ended search for meaning, one must first accept a pre-defined and specific framework of thinking.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

We haven’t actually addressed, in the same way Ti seems the most ready for philosophy, whether therefore it makes sense Fi is the primary function for art, since it’s been tacitly assumed this is philosophy's opposite. I just think in this case, it’s possible that Ni might be able to squeeze out Fi as most artfully inclined, especially if one takes a wider definition of 'art', like poetry for example. Thoughts?

Ni is a critic or master of ideas. The helping function Fe, transforms those ideas into emotional expression. I'd expect NiFe, or INFJs to be good at drama and emotional speeches/conversations. Writers also if Ti is developed.

Poetry manifests as words/thoughts. This is why INFP is known as the lyricist, its inner feelings (Fi) are brought to the surface through intuition(Ne) i.e. metaphors, ideas, theories, as words are the closest medium to directly expressing thoughts. They are also great at fantasy, so if they have developed Sensing they could become good artists also.

 

[Razare]

In addition to the question posed in the title, my other question is whether Ti is the primary function for seeking a depth of understanding or if other functions such as Ni seek such a depth.

Ni does not seek a depth of understanding, trust me on this one.

Remarkable understanding in a short period of time, with few supporting facts, as long as it fits with the over all model, YES! It does achieve that.

Since it lacks the rigorous standards that INTP's always require, I would say it does not achieve depth, or if it does, that depth is solely personal and can never be conveyed to another.

 

[JimHawkins]

I’m just wondering if we’re looking for Fi in the wrong place. It’s been understood thus far that dominant Jis seek a depth of understanding in whatever capacity. Philosophy is certainly a pursuit of meaning; but I’m not convinced art is likewise: it’s more of an expression and less of an enquiry. Does the artist get depth of meaning from their work in the same way a philosopher does from their musings? Maybe in auxiliary Se, but I don’t see it with Ne. If not, then why should Fi be automatically tied to it?

Not that I’m ignoring that should Fi want to express itself then, yes, art would be a natural creative medium, for both ISFPs and INFPs. But as a pursuit of meaning? Or perhaps we can expand this to include an appreciation of art, rather than just expression? Fi-Ne/Se could then lend itself primarily as an observer or critic; the most naturally apt at deriving meaning from art. But if one considers art primarily as a form of expression, it makes sense that INFJs are the most able not only in the clarity of their vision (Ni), but the ability and need to present it to others (Fe). Not ignoring the need for basic artful talent first but that goes for all types.

If Te is the IFP’s inferior, then surely it makes sense that translating Fi into a format understandable by others impinges expression significantly? In the same way that the INTP typically struggles to present its own Ti-Ne variations into a socially digestible (inferior Fe) manner? Inferior Fe can be largely circumvented by writing, it seems, but Te? I suppose artful inclination can in fact be tied to Fi as forum of Te avoidance. I’m wondering then if the INTP’s comfort with philosophy is as much a result of Ti-Ne, as it is Ti-Fe and the safety it provides from the type’s inferior.

It just seems to me that Fi (and I’m thinking Fi-Ne in particular) doesn’t really have a natural pigeonhole, or corner of the market. Oh, art critics? Yeah, Ni can do that as well. Maybe I’m getting sucked into temperaments. The other types seem to have their own sense of typological ‘space’, or purpose if you will. It seems that many of the INFP’s natural strengths can and are easily eclipsed and carried by other types (I’m looking at you INFJs.)

Unless this lack of ‘space’ really is the point of Fi-Ne: it enables it to derive depth and personal meaning in all manner of things. In fact put like that, it doesn’t sound too far from Ni’s anthropomorphic tendencies. Perhaps Fi-Ne is like a more focussed, conscious version of Ni? Or have I strayed too far?

 

[EyeSeeCold]

I’m just wondering if we’re looking for Fi in the wrong place. It’s been understood thus far that dominant Jis seek a depth of understanding in whatever capacity. Philosophy is certainly a pursuit of meaning; but I’m not convinced art is likewise: it’s more of an expression and less of an enquiry. Does the artist get depth of meaning from their work in the same way a philosopher does from their musings? Maybe in auxiliary Se, but I don’t see it with Ne. If not, then why should Fi be automatically tied to it?

1.) Dominant Ji?
2.) Ti and Fi are "understanding" functions, not "meaning" functions. Se and Ne are "expressing" functions. An artist of Fi has an understanding of feelings and conveys that understanding to art. He does not get meaning from his work; he expresses it through his work, as a philosopher expresses meaning and understanding through words. Fi+Ne would be feeling through words (e.g. a lovesick person writing poetry). Fi+Se would be expression through physical mediums (e.g. Jimi Hendrix playing "Machine Gun").

Not that I’m ignoring that should Fi want to express itself then, yes, art would be a natural creative medium, for both ISFPs and INFPs. But as a pursuit of meaning?

Again Fi is in pursuit of emotional meaning. What it means to love another, stuff like that. The auxiliary function expresses the dominant function.

Or perhaps we can expand this to include an appreciation of art, rather than just expression? Fi-Ne/Se could then lend itself primarily as an observer or critic; the most naturally apt at deriving meaning from art. But if one considers art primarily as a form of expression, it makes sense that INFJs are the most able not only in the clarity of their vision (Ni), but the ability and need to present it to others (Fe). Not ignoring the need for basic artful talent first but that goes for all types.

The critic functions are Si and Ni. Fi-Ne/Se function-wise does not necessarily guarantee one to be apt or fond of art critiquing. INFJs with Ni+Fe+Ti have the ability to express ideas through logic AND feeling. Not only are they are likely to be good at conveying ideas emotionally, but logically. So yeah they make great critics, you can trust an INFJ to handle a controversial situation with utmost care. Considering art, they'd could be good at expressing the meaning of someone's poetry, but not necessarily creating art.

If Te is the IFP’s inferior, then surely it makes sense that translating Fi into a format understandable by others impinges expression significantly? In the same way that the INTP typically struggles to present its own Ti-Ne variations into a socially digestible (inferior Fe) manner? Inferior Fe can be largely circumvented by writing, it seems, but Te? I suppose artful inclination can in fact be tied to Fi as forum of Te avoidance. I’m wondering then if the INTP’s comfort with philosophy is as much a result of Ti-Ne, as it is Ti-Fe and the safety it provides from the type’s inferior.

Interesting, though I wouldn't say Ti--Fe and Fi--Te are avoiding as much as they are compensating.

It just seems to me that Fi (and I’m thinking Fi-Ne in particular) doesn’t really have a natural pigeonhole, or corner of the market. Oh, art critics? Yeah, Ni can do that as well. Maybe I’m getting sucked into temperaments. The other types seem to have their own sense of typological ‘space’, or purpose if you will. It seems that many of the INFP’s natural strengths can and are easily eclipsed and carried by other types (I’m looking at you INFJs.)

No no no, again Ni and Si are critic functions. Fi-Ne's niche would be emotional expression through words. The INFJ's Ni-Fe-Ti-Se is not concerned with expressing itself emotionally through art function-wise. They can be good fiction writers for the sake of expressing ideas not emotions. Or good drama performers/actors/demonstrators for the same reason.

Unless this lack of ‘space’ really is the point of Fi-Ne: it enables it to derive depth and personal meaning in all manner of things. In fact put like that, it doesn’t sound too far from Ni’s anthropomorphic tendencies. Perhaps Fi-Ne is like a more focussed, conscious version of Ni? Or have I strayed too far?

Fi-Ne wants to express it's understanding of feelings . Ni coupled with an expressing function wants to express ideas. Ideas != Feelings.

 

[snafupants]

Ni is a critic or master of ideas. The helping function Fe, transforms those ideas into emotional expression. I'd expect NiFe, or INFJs to be good at drama and emotional speeches/conversations. Writers also if Ti is developed.

Poetry manifests as words/thoughts. This is why INFP is known as the lyricist, its inner feelings (Fi) are brought to the surface through intuition(Ne) i.e. metaphors, ideas, theories, as words are the closest medium to directly expressing thoughts. They are also great at fantasy, so if they have developed Sensing they could become good artists also.

Dostoevsky seems like the quintessential INFJ writer. His top three functions are well developed and constantly switching between one another textually. His inferior function is probably to blame for what some call predictable plot lines; this has some justification, but the understanding of people and focus on individual motives, both good and bad, masks that shortcoming and makes him a standout as an INFJ writer. Use of analogy seems related to the interplay between the dominant and tertiary function. As for secondary function, he could pity any rapist, drug addict, or murderer.

 

[JimHawkins]

@EyeSeeCold: Ah, that’s a much better understanding. Thank you for your response.

---
By “Ji”, I meant “Introverted Judging”. Sorry for the confusion; I simply assumed one could abbreviate this ‘title’ in a similar fashion to how this is done for the cognitive functions.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Nope, I mean I understand what you were trying to do, but J and P letters are results of functions so Ji would be redundant. It's kind of like an acronym in an acronym. e.g. PATS=PATS Are The Shit

I recently simplified functions in this post: INTP Forum - View Single Post - The structure of a MBTI test? I have to thank my Ne for that, it was basically made up on the spot. :P

 

[KazeCraven]

Nope, I mean I understand what you were trying to do, but J and P letters are results of functions so Ji would be redundant. It's kind of like an acronym in an acronym. e.g. PATS=PATS Are The Shit

I recently simplified functions in this post: INTP Forum - View Single Post - The structure of a MBTI test? I have to thank my Ne for that, it was basically made up on the spot. :P

What?

Ji = Ti OR Fi

Now how is that redundant?

To say someone is dominant Ji means that a person is IxxP.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

What?

Ji = Ti OR Fi

Now how is that redundant?

To say someone is dominant Ji means that a person is IxxP.

That doesn't make any sense. What is your definition of introverted judging?
One who keeps his directness to himself or an introverted type who has a J preference?

 

[Razare]

He meant it from the point of view that your judging function is introverted. He's not saying they're a "judger".

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Ah, that makes sense now.

different trains same destination I guess