Do you travel?

[eudemonia]

In Europe we have the impression that Americans don't get out much. By that I mean they don't get out of their own country much, that they are inward-looking and not that familiar with the world outside their borders.

On the other hand, Aussies and Kiwis are voracious travellers. Europeans are in between (except the Dutch who are more like the Aussies). Nowadays, kids take a gap year and maybe volunteer in Africa, do the 'Grand Tour' of Europe, work in Australia or whatever. It's rare to meet a young person who hasn't travelled outside of Europe.

Also, when I say 'travel' I mean 'getting stuck into the culture'. This means living with the people, backpacking, experiencing some of the hardships of living in the country as well as seeing some of the wonders.

I always assumed that this view of the Americans as 'inward-looking' was a prejudice. But is it?

I spent 18 months backpacking around the world and it affected me enormously. It's not just knowledge and experience you gain but you are challenged on all levels - philosophical, intellectual, emotional, spiritual and physical. It's always struck me how close America is to one of the most wild, challenging, beautiful and haunting countries in the world - Mexico. And also, how easy it is to get to the very challenging cultures of Guatemala or El Salvador - challenging too because of the history of American foreign policy in the region.

So how much do you/have you really travelled (excluding stays in 5* hotels)?

Do you plan to travel much and if so why/why not?

Do you think more of your compatriots ought to travel? Are Americans inward looking? What effects does all this travel have on the Aussies? etc

If you have travelled what benefits have you gained from it?

 

[ShaiGar]

I has a scooter. I spent the whole day traveling


*as an aside I've been all around asia, and I plan on an african road trip sometime this decade... I want to go backpacking around europe as well*

 

[eudemonia]

So how did you grow as a human being Shai gar from your experience of travelling on your scooter today?

Anyway, that's one support for my theory - you're from Australia and are widely travelled and intending to travel more. I fancy the African road trip myself - I've always fancied a trip across the Sahara...when the kids leave home I'll do something like that. There was a good series on TV recently with Euan McGregor (I loved him in Moulin Rouge) and his mate driving their bikes from Scotland to South Africa. It was amazing. They've written a book about it - of course!

 

[NoID10ts]

I spent 6 weeks in Israel most of which was on an archaelogical dig in this location - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banias

It was an eye opening experience that really gave me some insight into the tension there. Especially the Palestinian frustration. Some of the Palestinian kids threw rocks at us and knew enough English to say "Fuck You" to us and give us the finger. We spent 8 days in the Palestinian sector of Jerusalem and I had a chance to visit with the non rock throwing citizens and heard about what it is like for them there. It's a tension I don't think Americans really understand apart from being there. There's something surreal about seeing kids with machine guns.

Before I went there, I was expecting to be awed by the history of the Holy Land and have a powerful encounter with God. I found none of that. It was one of the best times of my life in some ways, but ultimately it left me hollow and disillusioned. Our world is one messed up place!

I have also spent a good bit of time in Mexico, as my wife is from there originally. I love it there. The people have such a sense of history and hospitality and the food........my god the food!

Also been to Germany (briefly), and I went to England when I was eight for a couple of weeks.

I certainly can't speak for other Americans but it seems like there is such abject hatred towards us worldwide that I am not inclined to want to travel all that much these days.

I'm too broke now to travel anyway so it doesn't matter.

 

[IntenseBurger]

I lived in Japan for 4 years when I was a wee little boy, and that's only because my dad was in the air force.

I have always wanted to travel for as long as I can remember but it seems so hard to attain. I think you are actually right about Americans not really being ones to travel though. Most of my friends have never been outside America. A few of my friends have never left the state. Two of my friends have never left the city and they are perfectly happy with that. I don't understand that at all

 

[Decaf]

Aside from a snowboarding trip to Whistler, BC and a day jaunt into Niagara, ON my only time outside of the states has been two weeks I spent in El Florido, MX building particle board homes for the homeless. Well, not the only time, but I don't count a missionary trip to Guadalajara that I was too young to remember.

I was one signature away from being deployed to Afghanistan, so that's probably the closest I've gone to leaving the continent, but then again, I'm the poor son of a carpenter. Where I'm working now is the first time I've had the opportunity to spend money without worrying about how much is left in my account after every purchase and most of those purchases end up being plane tickets to see Mai in San Francisco.

Eventually. I know that's the mantra of every pipe dream, but eventually I'm gonna go traveling (After I pay off my college debt).

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

I've done more traveling than I would say is typical for an American but not quite like what eudemonia is asking about. The most exotic places are Turkey (where my grandmother lived for a year) and the old Soviet Union. Both were cool trips. Otherwise I've been to Greece, Germany, Switzerland, Mexico and most recently a couple years ago over christmas went to England for my cousins graduation from the U of Birmingham. Spent a week in a small town in Kent that I could go and visit every year if I could afford it. Loved the place.

 

[eudemonia]

I have also spent a good bit of time in Mexico, as my wife is from there originally. I love it there. The people have such a sense of history and hospitality and the food........my god the food!

OMG huevos rancheros and corn, not flour, tortillas...whereabouts does your wife come from?

I certainly can't speak for other Americans but it seems like there is such abject hatred towards us worldwide that I am not inclined to want to travel all that much these days.

have you experienced this? I know you said you did in Palestine but that's a bit different. I love meeting people who are travelling and I don't get the impression that we would all jump on any random American that came along. Mind you, if I met you I might, just might challenge you regarding this war on terror thing. I would post my picture of me on the anti-Iraq war march but I look like a scrag head and yes, I am vain!

A few of my friends have never left the state. Two of my friends have never left the city and they are perfectly happy with that. I don't understand that at all

this is the most shocking thing I have heard on this forum and probably the most shocking thing I have heard in the last decade. I really find this impossible to believe...

YOu know I don't think its that hard to travel though I take Decaf's point about student debt. We didn't have to pay for university when I studied - they do now though. But in the UK its just accepted that you do a gap year - you almost have to explain if you don't. So you get a job, earn some money (before university) and then backpack or join a volunteer programme. I found the India one on the internet, of all things. It was either that or bratcamp or a boarding school in the outer Hebrides for my daughter. Its called Sageprogram and its an American company which specialises in educational tours to India. It cost me $3000 for 3 1/2 weeks plus air fare (i'm not sure if that's expensive re you guys but the exchange rate was very favourable to us). You don't spend much when you're out there. There are also loads of websites just purely dedicated to gap year travel. Some are rip offs but others are really very cheap. If you're volunteering in the Gambia for example, you only need air fare and subsistence - which is nothing.

Personally I think its a frame of mind thing - it's not thought of as natural in the US but it is in the UK.

I've done more traveling than I would say is typical for an American...The most exotic places are Turkey (where my grandmother lived for a year) and the old Soviet Union. Both were cool trips. Otherwise I've been to Greece, Germany, Switzerland, Mexico and most recently a couple years ago over christmas went to England for my cousins graduation from the U of Birmingham. Spent a week in a small town in Kent that I could go and visit every year if I could afford it. Loved the place.

That's unusual for an American to even want to go to the old Soviet Union. Me and my husband drove to Kiev in 1980 travelling through all the eastern bloc countries - now that was an eye-opener. It felt like going into the third world but the people were amazing. It was quite magical and absolutely different from any other travel experience I have ever had.

What was the name of the town in Kent? As for B'ham

 

[Agent Intellect]

never really had the money to travel when i was younger, but having food and a house was a bigger concern for us. after i'd saved money myself for a while, i met my girlfriend and flew out to see her a few times. so, Michigan is where i live and i've been to California (LA and Burbank area) a few times, thats the extent of my travelling experience.

 

[NoID10ts]

OMG huevos rancheros and corn, not flour, tortillas...whereabouts does your wife come from?

She is from a town called Piedras Negras which is right on the border. She also has extended family in Monclova. She is an amazing cook! Her tortillas are legendary!

have you experienced this? I know you said you did in Palestine but that's a bit different. I love meeting people who are travelling and I don't get the impression that we would all jump on any random American that came along. Mind you, if I met you I might, just might challenge you regarding this war on terror thing. I would post my picture of me on the anti-Iraq war march but I look like a scrag head and yes, I am vain!

After I posted this I thought, it's probably just the impression our media and politicians give us. I doubt it's accurate in many places in the world. The war in Iraq is a good example though. I didn't personally send the troops over there, it wasn't put to a vote here, why should I be challenged over it? We Americans are not of one mind about anything, as is true, I am sure, of most places on earth.

One thing that really embarrasses me though is the way many Americans act in other countries. When I went to Israel the professor that accompanied us relayed to us an exchange he heard in a Palestinian hotel resturaunt:

An American was sitting at a table and his waiter was there (Palestinian of course). They heard a fighter jet fly over head and the American said to him "You know we gave you those planes," and the waiter replied "You didn't give us those planes!" That's just awful.

And what the hell is a scrag head?

 

[eudemonia]

me, first thing in the morning with no make up

 

[NoID10ts]

me, first thing in the morning with no make up

Ah. We call that "Au Naturel" over here. It's much more flattering, even if it's deceptive.

 

[eudemonia]

Au naturel is fine when you're 19. I need a bit more help and a rainy day in London didn't bring out the best in me. I might put the picture up a bit later and you'll see

 

[fullerene]

tee hee.

I haven't traveled hardly at all--and I feel much worse off for not seeing other cultures. The only place I've been was to the Dominican Republic for 2 weeks (volunteering in a Haitian refugee village, so the poor part)... which was only two summers ago. I got some feel for the culture, watching the kids and talking to the adults a little while working (my spanish isn't good... barely enough to hold a basic conversation and ask "what does ____ mean?") but since it was a group of Americans going we basically hung out with each other for most of the down time. We also lived in a little Nazarene camp... its purpose was to give all the volunteers who come in a place to sleep and food to eat. I had no idea that food actually had taste! In the US we don't know what to do to make something taste good except add sugar, fat, or salt.

That's it, though. Hardly an immersive experience... just enough of a taste to know that I want to go somewhere else--which I suppose isn't bad for this point in my life.

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

What was the name of the town in Kent? As for B'ham

The town was called Wickhambreaux (sp), about 15 minutes from Canterbury. Lovely town, great pub!

 

[eudemonia]

I had no idea that food actually had taste! In the US we don't know what to do to make something taste good except add sugar, fat, or salt.

In my limited experience of the US - 2 months travelling from Vermont to New Mexico - I was shocked to find that even bread had sugar in it. And whilst New York had great restaurants a lot of the towns we visited didn't seem to have much variety in cuisine. It was hard to get away from the fast food culture. Even the TexMex in Arizona and New Mexico, had that fast food feel about it. But that was back in 84, so things have probably changed since then.

The UK used to be the laughing stock of Europe with our food culture; now its pretty cool. We've always had good Indian and Chinese restaurants but now you can find pretty much whatever cuisine you like. And people are more adventurous with what they cook at home too. Yesterday I made a so-called Mexican Lasagne for a family do - everyone loved it.

As far as the language is concerned, speaking English is both a blessing and a curse. We spent 9 months in Costa Rica teaching English but because at the time there weren't that many Americans around, everyone wanted to practise their English on us. And since their English was far better than our Spanish, that seemed to make sense. This meant that we never really grasped Spanish at any deep level at all. Having said that, we had never learned Spanish before - we learned it on the train going through Mexico! EVerywhere else, people speak English, so its difficult to get the incentive to learn another language. And if you do decide, which one should it be? I guess in your case Spanish would be sensible.

@Inappropriate Behaviour - Canterbury is one of the nicer parts of the UK. Very historic and not yet ruined by the homogenous mall culture.

 

[Jordan~]

I eat more curry than... British food, whatever that is; and we're not even Asian. The cultural assimilation is fascinating. Most of the time when my mum cooks, it's not "traditional British cuisine", it's something like Thai curry.

Anyway, travel. We used to go on a lot of holidays when I was younger, now I generally stay at home or we don't go on a holiday. I've been lots of places, though. Egypt, America, Australia, Spain, Italy, France, Singapore, Iceland... And the only language I've learnt is Latin. A little French, most of which I've forgotten.

Of all the great cities I've been to, by the way, London is my favourite so far. It feels so gravely important and historical and alive.

 

[Ermine]

Eudemonia, to an extent, you are right. For example, you couldn't call me closed-minded, but I'm American, and the only other country I've been to is Canada (I'm pretty close to the border now). However, you have to consider that the US is big enough that the cultures are significantly different in other regions. The west is hugely different from the east, and the south... whole different provincial world down there.

Also, there's a money issue. My family is fairly well to do, and we still can't afford international travel.

If it weren't for that barrier, I would love to go visit Europe, maybe a trip around the world if I ever get that much money.

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

Eudemonia, to an extent, you are right. For example, you couldn't call me closed-minded, but I'm American, and the only other country I've been to is Canada (I'm pretty close to the border now). However, you have to consider that the US is big enough that the cultures are significantly different in other regions. The west is hugely different from the east, and the south... whole different provincial world down there.

Also, there's a money issue. My family is fairly well to do, and we still can't afford international travel.

If it weren't for that barrier, I would love to go visit Europe, maybe a trip around the world if I ever get that much money.

With the huge drop in value of the US dollar in the past 6-7 years, travel outside our borders for us has become ridiculously expensive. Everything in England was twice what we pay here in the states. Switzerland was even worse. My cousin is now in Japan and there is just no way me or my family could go and visit there. It would really be good for tourism but so many are afraid ot loathe to come here.

 

[eudemonia]

I don't want to be insensitive here because I don't know your circumstances - I just need to understand a bit more. I can understand the decline in the dollar's value is a stumbling block. But you can buy 'round the world tickets' for less than a £1000 which currently is about $1800. On this site http://www.roundtheworldexperts.co....er&utm_campaign=Hp_BannerAdventureTours130608
they are advertising 3 week trips for £350 ($550). Granted you'd have to get to the UK and I don't know if there are similar sites in the US. Once you're in the country you could work - e.g. in Australia there are lots of options to work using a temporary work visa or you could work in the US and save enough to keep you alive for a long time if you went to India or Africa. We did both - saved in the UK and worked in Costa Rica. Most round the world travellers either go to Thailand or London to buy their tickets as these are the places where its cheapest.

But maybe these prices are exhorbitant by your standards - I have no idea. I reckon you could get round the world by working and travelling for around $4000 - which admittedly is a lot but in the UK you could work as a student and save that up in 6 months or so. I don't know what its like in the US though.

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

But maybe these prices are exhorbitant by your standards - I have no idea. I reckon you could get round the world by working and travelling for around $4000 - which admittedly is a lot but in the UK you could work as a student and save that up in 6 months or so. I don't know what its like in the US though.

The only way my family could reasonably afford the England trip was through package deals like you mention. 2/3 of our trip was through package deals and it was 1/4 of the cost overall. That other 1/3 was a killer!
As for your saving up for a trip idea, it would greatly depend on whether or not a student is also paying his or her living expenses. In the US, it is getting more and more difficult just to pay for ordinary living expenses much less save for a trip (or retirement for that matter, I have no idea what I'm gonna do if I live to the age of 65. Probably keep working if possible). We are not the economic powerhouse we pretend to be. We live in the red (debt) and not the black.
The idea of getting to another country and working as you go there is intriguing.

 

[Decaf]

And for us college graduates its even harder. I have $16,000 in college debt and I have less than any of my friends except for the one who had it all paid by their parent's latest mortgage (and here I am thinking of going for my PhD). Debt is a way of life here, and its not all based on poor money management (though admittedly, some of it is).

I can't realistically take on a trip like that until I've paid most of this off, and that will take a few years of not accruing other sizable debts.

 

[eudemonia]

We are not the economic powerhouse we pretend to be. We live in the red (debt) and not the black.

Debt is a way of life here

I find this all rather scary and it makes me feel out of touch. I know economists are always saying that America is living off tons of debt but I didn't really think about this deeply. I had the Keynesian model in my head that yes, in certain times you live off debt whilst in more prosperous times you repay it. Stupidly, I didn't equate it with personal debt, I just assumed it was mostly government debt.

I have a little theory bubbling around inside my brain - and no time to support it or investigate it - but hey, why let a few facts spoil a good theory! So here it is. We are living in the next phase of capitalist evolution. It is becoming harder and harder to export our exploitation to countries such as India and China and it is therefore difficult to access the excess value to fund our lifestyles in the west. What is now happening is that the capitalist class is becoming international, the middle class is becoming international and the working class is becoming international. This means, as Jeff Faux pointed out in his book, The Global Class War, that the capitalist class have more in common with each other than they do with their own compatriots. The living standards of the middle class in the west will decline as the wealth is transferred to the rising elites in the new economies and the living standards of the working class in the west will plummet, while those in the new economies will rise.

Then we'll really need that military unit to keep the peace.

 

[Jordan~]

So we're going back to aristocracy? I hope I'm bourgeois enough to stay wealthy by then.

 

[Agent Intellect]

its the fall of roam again. will europe or china or somebody else take the torch or do we have another dark ages on our hands? as a pessimist, i'm inclined to agree with the latter.

 

[Calamedes]

I'm not sure of the "Fall of Rome" kind of thing. Frankly, I think that the balance of power merely needs to be shifted. Depending upon who picks it up (the two most likely powers are both communist, China and Russia... I'll argue the latter if needed), there will be some major changes among the world's economic system which should restore a bit of the capitalist crisis we've gotten ourselves into. I honestly don't think that something as vicious as the Dark Ages will plague us (no pun intended) again, at least not until something absolutely terrible happens (i.e. Iran uses its nukes on Israel or the US).

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

Wiki lists the fastest growing economies here but I think the smaller countries can be discounted as the next economic powerhouses. China and India may be the big economic rivalry of the 21st century.

The world is too technologically developed to slip into another Dark Ages simply because western economies collapse but another Great Depression is definitely in the realm of possibilities.

 

[Calamedes]

amen. good list, btw.

 

[Agent Intellect]

obviously we wouldn't revert back to living in mud huts and going to war with swords and chainmail. it would be a new sort of dark ages, similar to the old one in that there would be opression, constant warfare (that ones already seemed to start), no real security or freedom (see the "martial law as status quo" thread).

 

[eudemonia]

Lets be careful over our analysis. Firstly this is a definition of aristocracy:

Power is maintained by a hereditary elite, from a caste, class, family (dynasty or even some individuals).
Aristocracies have most often been hereditary plutocracies (see below), with a belief in their own superiority. Aristocracies often include a monarch who although a member of the aristocracy rules over the aristocracy as well as the rest of society. Aristocracy can also refer to the highest class in society even if they do not rule directly. They are usually under the leaders of the country in the ladder of status.
The term "aristocracy" is derived from the Greek language aristokratia, meaning 'the rule of the best'.[1]

Traditionally, aristocracy is associated with the idea of heredity. Hence the importance of 'breeding' and connections - just WHO are YOU? The question is do we have a meritocracy still or is it a modern aristocracy - The Bush's, the Kennedys, the Clintons? In our country its less clear since the aristocracy have learned to survive by marrying into the bourgeoise but keeping a low profile.

The problem with the 'fall of roam' (love it!) analogy is that it implies the fall of nations No, rhis is the rise and fall of classes. Which means that the worldwide dominant class (capitalists, fashionista, celebs - the underwriters of bread and circuses) will have to subdue the underclasses in their own country. Btw, that means us - the useless P's. This is civil war, my friends, but civil war by stealth and by apathy. OMG - I am being watched inciting anarchy on the internet

 

[eudemonia]

PS my last reply was taken off into the ethernet by the so-called spam filter. Be warned - there are eyes everywhere.

edit: this should of course read my next reply - wait and wonder!

 

[Agent Intellect]

The problem with the 'fall of roam' (love it!) analogy is that it implies the fall of nations No, rhis is the rise and fall of classes. Which means that the worldwide dominant class (capitalists, fashionista, celebs - the underwriters of bread and circuses) will have to subdue the underclasses in their own country. Btw, that means us - the useless P's. This is civil war, my friends, but civil war by stealth and by apathy. OMG - I am being watched inciting anarchy on the internet

jesus christ, i didn't even realize i spelled that wrong lol.

i suppose by the fall of ROME (there, got it right) i mean that, America always tries to play the big brother to the other nations, the world police, trying to tell other countries that they can do this and can't do that. if America falls economically, it would hurt its ability to "police" the world, and other countries (Iran, for example) would be bolder and have an easier time doing as they please. the fall of America would just be the first domino in the domino effect heading towards a modern day like dark age.

 

[Jesin]

I would like to take this opportunity to say...

ASIMOV!

 

[severus]

Travel is my dream and goal. I have been to several different states, as well as St. Lucia for my brother's wedding. My other brother is getting married in Italy and my mother says we can visit France while we're out there. Hurrah I am taking French in school, so I might actually know some stuff by then.

 

[eudemonia]

Severus, you are going to two of the most beautiful countries in Europe. You will have a fab time. Where in Italy is your brother getting married?

 

[Calamedes]

They're nice, but Israel is better :P (note: I live there... lol)

 

[severus]

I'm not sure where. He gave me the website for the little town/villa thing, but I don't remember it.

 

[Taylored]

I have been to 40 of the 50 states, including Alaska, but not Hawaii. I have also been to Canada, Mexico, and Honduras. I am fairly young, and I have a new family to support, so my traveling days are over for a little while. I love adventure. I am definitely not one to isolate myself from the world...

 

[severus]

40/50, amazing! It was once (and maybe still is, who knows) my goal to go to all fifty states.

 

[eudemonia]

@Severus, how exciting. This could mean the difference between being able to visit Rome, Florence, Venice, Verona, the Lakes, Pisa, Lucca, Pompeii, Vesuvius....I could go on. My fave cities are Rome, Venice and I love Verona for the opera.

@Taylored - Honduras. That's unusual. We only travelled through very quickly but when we went it seemed like an American military outpost - full of military installations, equipment and army units. How did you find it?

 

[Taylored]

40/50, amazing! It was once (and maybe still is, who knows) my goal to go to all fifty states.

I have the same goal. I just hit #40 two weeks ago. The company I work for has an office in Mesa, AZ. I had never been to AZ. My company sent me out there to help train some of the new guys. Now they have given me a promotion and asked me to move there. I should be able to knock out two more states before the end of the year (New Mexico and Nevada)

 

[ChaosTheory]

Yes, I travel. Through time.

 

[severus]

OH burn.
You're so clever.

 

[Chimera]

I've only been to 3 States...Tennessee, Georgia, and the one I'm currently in (but do to my paranoia of stalkers, I won't be naming it.) All east coast.
I've thought about travelling a lot. When I was little, it used to be my dream to travel everywhere, to see all that I could. I wanted to live in many many different places, to dip into as many cultures as I could manage...
But reality dilluted that dream for me. Travel expenses, security...at this point, I've only got a few places I really want to visit. New Zealand, Germany, London, and Iceland. But of course I'll take whatever I can get as soon as I get out there on my own.
I know that I don't want to stay in the same place forever. I'll ride a bike out the highway if I have to.