Do you ever find yourself relating to the "bad" character?

[nexion]

I think it is the tendency of an INTP to be somewhat or even extremely rebellious towards society and law, giving them a natural disposition to tend to relate to those considered bad or evil in society, rather in works of fiction or in nonfictional events. For example, I find myself relating to Germany in WWI (albeit, they weren't bad, as it was Serbian nationals who assassinated an Austrian prince, and then western propaganda made Germany out to be bad). What's even more concerning is that I find myself relating to Germany in WWII (despite the fact that I don't want to exterminate all Jews) and the Joker from Batman (despite the fact that I'm not a homicidal psychopath). The weird part is that I find myself relating to them for apparently no reason; I don't believe that what they are doing is right and I would never do what they do. Perhaps it is some kind of perverted admiration? I also find, quite naturally, I think, a predisposition for liking someone showing little emotion or regard for society, and, being that most within society view these aspects as destructive, it is only natural they would attach these qualities to the archetypal "evil" person.

Thoughts? I'm pretty sure a thread such as this hasn't been made before. I searched. If it has though, sorry.

 

[Galthian]

I can't quite see myself relating to a country, but I see what you mean. And yes I do often find myself empathizing "the bad guy", and I too admire (at least fictional characters) whom show little emotion or empathy towards society.
I kinda feel like a sick fuck for it, but since I really don't believe in good and evil at all, I see nothing wrong with what they are doing a lot of the time. Nothing I would ever do or anything just logically I see nothing wrong with many of "the bad guy's" actions a lot of the time.

Sorry for ramble... tired..hope that made sense...

 

[sardonic-tea]

I must have to agree with you. I do seem to relate to the "bad" characters sometimes. Maybe it's because in my sick fantasy of getting back at all the people who have ever pissed me off, they are capturing my evil and empathetic thoughts, and somehow I can relate, even though I don't agree with what they are doing.
Or maybe it's because sometimes I feel like the underdog, and I feel like the "bad" guy has been the underdog in some situations, and they seek revenge. Sometimes not though. I don't know...I'd need to have examples, I suppose.
I also like people that show little emotion or regard to society; it's weird.

 

[ShipwreckSilence]

Well INTPs have sort of a natural lack of interest in society even though, for the majority of people, it seems quite a natural thing to be part of. All the rules and customs and societal norms we are expected to take for granted are very difficult for an INTP because they are often not particularly logical. "Good" and "Bad" are just ideas. In reality good and bad depend entirely upon a persons point of view. The solid identity of "Bad" or "Evil" in films and thought are generally developed around what is seen as bad for society because that's something that most people can identify with.

If there were, for instance, a zombie attack you would probably be the one who had no problem shooting your best friend when they got infected. All the things you would do to logically give you and those you were with the best chance at survival would be seen as somewhat "Evil" in the context of a movie. A lot of movies don't take into account so much logic behind the evil so the bad guys do silly things just for the sake of being evil which is not very realistic. Everyone does what they do with the understanding that it promotes their vision of good.

So yes, villains and anti-hero's certainly appeal to me. They are saying "screw society" and doing what they want. There are likely times when someone does something silly just because it's "they way you do things" and even if you point it out they avoid thinking about why. The villains in movies are saying "hey dudes, you aren't getting away with it this time, you should have thought about it more."

I like to think of it as a natural cycle though. The only way for society to get stronger is to have some humans working against it. I don't see myself as becoming some crazy villain, but I'll never quite fit into the natural order of society, and therefore society is forced to adapt to be able to accommodate me and avoid my making waves.

 

[pjoa09]

always, Hitler and Joker are definitely some of my idols.

i cherish them because they prove (or in the film try to prove) bizarre yet true aspects of human nature.

Hitler showed that humans are capable of killing 6 million jews with no valid reason whatsoever.

Joker attempted to prove that 'humans' are simply animals and that morality is beneath ones selfishness.

I might have gotten these statements a little wrong, but you get the gist of it.

I have gotten into fist fights with my brother concerning his attempts to discipline my life and bring 'rules' to it.

 

[Cognisant]

It's not what they do, but why they did it.

You could generalize INTPs as misanthropes with empathy, torn between a deep loathing for society as a whole, yet deeply compassionate (in our own way) towards the individuals within it. Y'see it's all to do with understanding, our highly abstract mind enables us to see the "big picture" with incredible depth and clarity, which makes the many flaws of society almost personally insulting, like standing in a dog turd and having the smell follow you where ever you go. But what stops us from being consumed by misanthropy is our minds' ability to explore the minds of others, which kinda makes it hard to hate them, how can we when it’s self-evidently like hating children, for merely being children?

I want to kill you all, but not you specifically, I just want you to be happy.
It's all severely fucked up, and indifference is so much easier.

 

[Galthian]

Cognisant explained it perfectly.

 

[Ermine]

Yep. That would be me too. Though there's actually a few good reasons to admire Hitler

- he and the swastika created one of the biggest and most successful graphic design campaigns ever
- his rhetorical skills were nothing short of extraordinary.
- he managed to persuade other sensible people to carry out his horrible plans for no reason. Now that's skillage.
- He managed to make a Charlie Chaplin style mustache look menacing/evil on anyone after his time.

 

[Silas]

I concur with Cognisant.

Do you concur?









(i'mmmmmmm quoting)

 

[MidnightGino]

We should all have what Cognisant said as our signature. Perfectly explained.

 

[dreamoftheunknown]

It's not what they do, but why they did it.

You could generalize INTPs as misanthropes with empathy, torn between a deep loathing for society as a whole, yet deeply compassionate (in our own way) towards the individuals within it. Y'see it's all to do with understanding, our highly abstract mind enables us to see the "big picture" with incredible depth and clarity, which makes the many flaws of society almost personally insulting, like standing in a dog turd and having the smell follow you where ever you go. But what stops us from being consumed by misanthropy is our minds' ability to explore the minds of others, which kinda makes it hard to hate them, how can we when it’s self-evidently like hating children, for merely being children?

I want to kill you all, but not you specifically, I just want you to be happy.
It's all severely fucked up, and indifference is so much easier.

Indeed.

 

[DesertSmeagle]

I sometimes make fun of retards when other people are all like, "oh your a cool kid."...there obviously not a "cool kid" because theyre retarded, and ill tell my friends this haha. I dont not like retards, i just find the things they do somewhat humorous. And dont give me garbage for this. society sdays that when u call someone a retard its bad, so that means your recognizing that retards are lesser than you in some way...People just dont think enough about things...Everyone knows that retards are lesser in intelligence than us, and they dont care because alot of the times they cant perceive society, or at least in the case of autistic people. ..maybe i subconsiously hate retards because the govt puts more money in to them then me, because i have depression and anxiety problems..retards dont know theyre retarded, and if they do im sure they dont care. Alot of autistic people are proud of being autistic...im not proud of being a depressed loser whos scared to go to school because im scared of people, so the govt should put more cash into stuff like that...woops im ranting..sorry

 

[nexion]

Or maybe it's because sometimes I feel like the underdog, and I feel like the "bad" guy has been the underdog in some situations, and they seek revenge. Sometimes not though. I don't know...I'd need to have examples, I suppose.
I also like people that show little emotion or regard to society; it's weird.

I failed to mention this in the OP, but I do often relate to "bad" guys because of the whole underling idea. They are pretty much neglected and hated by all of society, and I suppose I relate to that because, whether real or imagined, I often feel the same way.

Well INTPs have sort of a natural lack of interest in society even though, for the majority of people, it seems quite a natural thing to be part of. All the rules and customs and societal norms we are expected to take for granted are very difficult for an INTP because they are often not particularly logical. "Good" and "Bad" are just ideas. In reality good and bad depend entirely upon a persons point of view. The solid identity of "Bad" or "Evil" in films and thought are generally developed around what is seen as bad for society because that's something that most people can identify with.

If there were, for instance, a zombie attack you would probably be the one who had no problem shooting your best friend when they got infected. All the things you would do to logically give you and those you were with the best chance at survival would be seen as somewhat "Evil" in the context of a movie. A lot of movies don't take into account so much logic behind the evil so the bad guys do silly things just for the sake of being evil which is not very realistic. Everyone does what they do with the understanding that it promotes their vision of good.

So yes, villains and anti-hero's certainly appeal to me. They are saying "screw society" and doing what they want. There are likely times when someone does something silly just because it's "they way you do things" and even if you point it out they avoid thinking about why. The villains in movies are saying "hey dudes, you aren't getting away with it this time, you should have thought about it more."

I like to think of it as a natural cycle though. The only way for society to get stronger is to have some humans working against it. I don't see myself as becoming some crazy villain, but I'll never quite fit into the natural order of society, and therefore society is forced to adapt to be able to accommodate me and avoid my making waves.

Nice post. I really don't have much to say. I just wanted to note how I am somewhat pissed at how false the dichotomy is between between "good" and "bad" people are in movies. They generally present the good guys as being 100% good and the bad guys as 100% bad. This is wrong, and never works in real life. Maybe I'm just a cynical nit-picker, but I even like such fanciful things as movies and fiction to be realistic, especially if it is meant to be realistic fiction.

I sometimes make fun of retards when other people are all like, "oh your a cool kid."...there obviously not a "cool kid" because theyre retarded, and ill tell my friends this haha. I dont not like retards, i just find the things they do somewhat humorous. And dont give me garbage for this. society sdays that when u call someone a retard its bad, so that means your recognizing that retards are lesser than you in some way...People just dont think enough about things...Everyone knows that retards are lesser in intelligence than us, and they dont care because alot of the times they cant perceive society, or at least in the case of autistic people. ..maybe i subconsiously hate retards because the govt puts more money in to them then me, because i have depression and anxiety problems..retards dont know theyre retarded, and if they do im sure they dont care. Alot of autistic people are proud of being autistic...im not proud of being a depressed loser whos scared to go to school because im scared of people, so the govt should put more cash into stuff like that...woops im ranting..sorry

I'm sorry you have to deal with social problems and depression (I do too, to a point), but I don't entirely follow the logic in this post. First of all, the other people are very obviously making fun of the 'mentally challenged' (for political correctness, hahahah) by calling them "cool kids." Second of all, these people are by no means less intelligent than others (usually, or at least in the case of autistic people). Sure, autistic people may have no idea what is going on in the 'real' world, but they are incredibly intelligent, especially in subjects such as math. And you must consider that they are smart enough to create incredibly complex worlds in their heads, to the point that aren't able to distinguish which world is real and which world is created.

You said "don't give me garbage for this." Just so you know, this post was not me giving you garbage, but hopefully clearing up a few misconceptions you may have had.

 

[Ermine]

Alot of autistic people are proud of being autistic...

Second of all, these people are by no means less intelligent than others (usually, or at least in the case of autistic people). Sure, autistic people may have no idea what is going on in the 'real' world, but they are incredibly intelligent, especially in subjects such as math. And you must consider that they are smart enough to create incredibly complex worlds in their heads, to the point that aren't able to distinguish which world is real and which world is created.

Hate to derail, but I would like to clarify that not all autistic people are proud of their autism. I could see that happening if they were high functioning, but that's not always the case. For example, my sister is autistic. She is nonverbal for the most part (won't talk out of her own free will, and if she does, the enunciation could use a lot of work), and doesn't exactly shine academically. She also doesn't seem to be conscious of emotions, cultural expectations, or morality. As a result, she doesn't really exhibit pride by any means. Though I'm still pretty sure she has her own area of brilliance she's yet to show.

 

[typus]

Nice post. I really don't have much to say. I just wanted to note how I am somewhat pissed at how false the dichotomy is between between "good" and "bad" people are in movies. They generally present the good guys as being 100% good and the bad guys as 100% bad. This is wrong, and never works in real life. Maybe I'm just a cynical nit-picker, but I even like such fanciful things as movies and fiction to be realistic, especially if it is meant to be realistic fiction.

That's one of the reasons I like Death Note, the way it depicts Light is so fair that a lot of people don't even see him as evil. Although, one thing that bothers me about it is Light's EXTREME faith in the judicial system.

About that, I want everyones opinion on L/Light

 

[Dormouse]

I don't know whether I identify with them, but I have vast reserves of sympathy which are exclusive to villains. I rarely, if ever, connect to the hero of a story, especially if the morals are dumbed down. (Dammit, give them REAL ethical dilamnas. None of this third choice bullshit... Follow through if you're going to make them pick between saving their girlfriend or a bus load of children.)

 

[DesertSmeagle]

I'm sorry you have to deal with social problems and depression (I do too, to a point), but I don't entirely follow the logic in this post. First of all, the other people are very obviously making fun of the 'mentally challenged' (for political correctness, hahahah) by calling them "cool kids." Second of all, these people are by no means less intelligent than others (usually, or at least in the case of autistic people). Sure, autistic people may have no idea what is going on in the 'real' world, but they are incredibly intelligent, especially in subjects such as math. And you must consider that they are smart enough to create incredibly complex worlds in their heads, to the point that aren't able to distinguish which world is real and which world is created.

You said "don't give me garbage for this." Just so you know, this post was not me giving you garbage, but hopefully clearing up a few misconceptions you may have had.

Sorry about the crazy post i posted haha. I think i was semi high on these anti anxiety pills i have..but ya i didnt mean to say that autistic people are un-intelligent..i know they have some of the most incredible mental abilities in the world with the autistic savants and stuff. i meant to say that autistic people cant perceive society and social norms, so they may appear stupid. some can calculate incredible math equations but cant tie their shoes. and i cant see why the govt would give money to curing autism when people with depression and anxiety are suffering. id probably rather be autistic than have depression and anxiety issues..maybe being an intp has been a contributing factor to anxiety and depression. i mite make a post about that.

 

[nexion]

Sorry about the crazy post i posted haha. I think i was semi high on these anti anxiety pills i have..but ya i didnt mean to say that autistic people are un-intelligent..i know they have some of the most incredible mental abilities in the world with the autistic savants and stuff. i meant to say that autistic people cant perceive society and social norms, so they may appear stupid. some can calculate incredible math equations but cant tie their shoes. and i cant see why the govt would give money to curing autism when people with depression and anxiety are suffering. id probably rather be autistic than have depression and anxiety issues..maybe being an intp has been a contributing factor to anxiety and depression. i mite make a post about that.

I understand entirely.

I have found a correlation between IT types and depression. They are generally extremely cynical and are the most likely to have a pessimistic viewpoint. This, mixed in with the fact that they think a lot because they don't like being social too much, are the perfect conditions for depressions. I realized this a few weeks after finding out I was an INTP.

 

[Iuanes]

Well, when it comes to movies or other kinds of art I think alot of me sides with the villain simply because I resent mode in which the the movie is trying to preach.

Society creates its stories to teach and reaffirm certain lessons and moralities which help that society run, and make these virtues appear normal and universal. The good guy eventually wins, the bad guy is ugly and is accompanied by dark music. This kind of surreptitious moralizing is sort of insulting. I think alot of INTPs can perceive other value systems outside the one's they are in. They also hate cheap tricks, manipulation and appeals to emotion, (at least I do) which pretty much characterizes most popular art.

So empathizing with the villainous or maligned character is simply a way of showing that their tricks aren't working.

 

[snafupants]

Well, when it comes to movies or other kinds of art I think alot of me sides with the villain simply because I resent mode in which the the movie is trying to preach.

Society creates its stories to teach and reaffirm certain lessons and moralities which help that society run, and make these virtues appear normal and universal. The good guy eventually wins, the bad guy is ugly and is accompanied by dark music. This kind of surreptitious moralizing is sort of insulting. I think alot of INTPs can perceive other value systems outside the one's they are in. They also hate cheap tricks, manipulation and appeals to emotion, (at least I do) which pretty much characterizes most popular art.

So empathizing with the villainous or maligned character is simply a way of showing that their tricks aren't working.

for my money, this is the most accurate reason why intps resist black/white depictions of good/evil in film - this whole issue of sublimated morality. the good character is usually physically fit, overly pragmatic, and monogamous and the evil character is a insolent, unfocused, and licentious. the protagonist is often a catholic archetype, clean cut and willing to follow a preordained set of rules. cliche puritanical characters make me feel like this lady below who was sadly declined service from her favorite McDonalds:

YouTube- ‪McNugget Rage surveillance video released‬‎

 

[walfin]

Yes. Always.

Don't think it's all about not liking pure good/evil too. After all, I like shallow feel good stories. I just always feel sorry for the losers, whether they "deserved" to be vanquished or no.

 

[cheese]

Yeah, in terms of presenting complex, logically coherent arguments, movies don't do too well. I don't have sympathy for evil acts, but what is presented as 'evil' in movies is often too childishly banal to be worth talking about, and anyway ascribing moral value to individuals based on specific acts is increasingly recognised as iffy. I do have sympathy for the human race though, because each member is flawed and prone to some form of evil, and the fact that it exists and stains the genuinely good that also exists (hopefully!) in each person is sad. For the good bits, anyway. Imagine living in a turd-house, yuck.

So yeah, I don't think it's an issue of liking and promoting evil or cruelty, but rather that evil is poorly defined, and consequently discussions and opinions on it are generally uninformed. Sympathising with the villain then becomes about feeling for a fellow human, made more profound by our first-hand understanding of his isolation from society. Instead of liking to skewer babies because you're a sadistic bastard, through no fault of anyone else, etc (is that even possible?).

(gave up)

 

[Anthile]

Dirty Harry is a bad example. It's thinly veiled right-wing propaganda and some movie critics even go so far and call the movie fascist. It's not even that the protagonist is much of an anti hero. We're supposed to root for him, supposed to admire every move of his. Dirty Harry is a good guy and it's the evil society with evil laws that hold him back from creating justice. We see him kick the state of law throughout the whole movie but it's never a sign of his shady character but rather as a sign of his commitment. There really isn't much that distinguishes him from an outright villain protagonist.

 

[Words]

I am a very inconsistent person so the answer is yes if only the prerequisite is met.

1. Flexibility of value ---there are those moments that makes myself almost value nothing. It is when I am satisfied in seeing what I believe is objective and objective alone.

2. Declaration of Absolute Morality ---It's about innate 'conscience'. I cannot resist the pull of this subjectivity. If I see a person begging for food from me, my determined self does not ignore. Though it saddens me to think how twisted and contradictory I can see my values can become.

 

[Jennywocky]

It's not what they do, but why they did it.

You could generalize INTPs as misanthropes with empathy, torn between a deep loathing for society as a whole, yet deeply compassionate (in our own way) towards the individuals within it. Y'see it's all to do with understanding, our highly abstract mind enables us to see the "big picture" with incredible depth and clarity, which makes the many flaws of society almost personally insulting, like standing in a dog turd and having the smell follow you where ever you go. But what stops us from being consumed by misanthropy is our minds' ability to explore the minds of others, which kinda makes it hard to hate them, how can we when it’s self-evidently like hating children, for merely being children?

I identify with all this, especially the contrast between broken systems and developing people. I'm extremely accepting of people where they are at... unless I can tell they are choosing to be less than they could be in their current context, especially if it's conscious, and then I can slowly get frustrated with them.

I think I've mostly gotten past my loathing of society at this point, though. I just see it as a broken thing and not much use in getting worked up about. It's best to focus on other things and not let emotional reaction to society drive my choices.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

It's not what they do, but why they did it.

You could generalize INTPs as misanthropes with empathy, torn between a deep loathing for society as a whole, yet deeply compassionate (in our own way) towards the individuals within it. Y'see it's all to do with understanding, our highly abstract mind enables us to see the "big picture" with incredible depth and clarity, which makes the many flaws of society almost personally insulting, like standing in a dog turd and having the smell follow you where ever you go. But what stops us from being consumed by misanthropy is our minds' ability to explore the minds of others, which kinda makes it hard to hate them, how can we when it’s self-evidently like hating children, for merely being children?

I want to kill you all, but not you specifically, I just want you to be happy.
It's all severely fucked up, and indifference is so much easier.

Haha spot on. It's like a battle between ethics. Our only hope is to develop our Fe or counter it with Dominant/Auxiliary Fi and Se.

My ISFJ friend went a long ways in helping me suppress the misanthropy in high school. I was actually happy, whatever that is. We both saw society through Xray vision and laughed at the amount of BS that happens on a daily basis.

 

[SpaceYeti]

I think it is the tendency of an INTP to be somewhat or even extremely rebellious towards society and law, giving them a natural disposition to tend to relate to those considered bad or evil in society, rather in works of fiction or in nonfictional events. For example, I find myself relating to Germany in WWI (albeit, they weren't bad, as it was Serbian nationals who assassinated an Austrian prince, and then western propaganda made Germany out to be bad). What's even more concerning is that I find myself relating to Germany in WWII (despite the fact that I don't want to exterminate all Jews) and the Joker from Batman (despite the fact that I'm not a homicidal psychopath). The weird part is that I find myself relating to them for apparently no reason; I don't believe that what they are doing is right and I would never do what they do. Perhaps it is some kind of perverted admiration? I also find, quite naturally, I think, a predisposition for liking someone showing little emotion or regard for society, and, being that most within society view these aspects as destructive, it is only natural they would attach these qualities to the archetypal "evil" person.

Thoughts? I'm pretty sure a thread such as this hasn't been made before. I searched. If it has though, sorry.

I'm Gaston, from Disney's Beauty and the Beast.

 

[g0dc0mplex]

I think I've mostly gotten past my loathing of society at this point, though. I just see it as a broken thing and not much use in getting worked up about. It's best to focus on other things and not let emotional reaction to society drive my choices.

Amen. It feels truly liberating.

 

[addictedartist]

Im half man, half amason

 

[GYX_Kid]

yes.

What Cognisant said.
Everything is a piece of a dog turd, but we have an understanding and interest for every unique entity in it. Bits of corn even taste good.

Also has to do with associations/mental categories, like if some bad individual is seen standing against something that in turn is amusing, or something. I'm able to isolate that, without judging the entire person. Then I also isolate other areas of the person, and react/act to them how I feel would be appropriate.

In a matter of personal connection, I would more likely prefer anarchists to fascists. Like an example of ENTP (the joker, crazy punk "rebel") vs ENTJ (a narcissist, crazy punk "dictator"). Not that it's absolute. I just enjoy inept fascists for being able to feel good about myself when they inevitably make themself more of a victim than me, and stay that way for life.

Out of exploration i've hung out with actually severely fucked up people before, and got a slight taste of PTSD, after wondering whether i did or not. Guess i'm not a true nihilist.

 

[systembust]

It's not what they do, but why they did it.

You could generalize INTPs as misanthropes with empathy, torn between a deep loathing for society as a whole, yet deeply compassionate (in our own way) towards the individuals within it. Y'see it's all to do with understanding, our highly abstract mind enables us to see the "big picture" with incredible depth and clarity, which makes the many flaws of society almost personally insulting, like standing in a dog turd and having the smell follow you where ever you go. But what stops us from being consumed by misanthropy is our minds' ability to explore the minds of others, which kinda makes it hard to hate them, how can we when it’s self-evidently like hating children, for merely being children?

I want to kill you all, but not you specifically, I just want you to be happy.
It's all severely fucked up, and indifference is so much easier.

Wow. I find that to be one of the most accurate descriptions of my own outlook that I've ever read, anywhere.

 

[Hadoblado]

Good thread has good posts.

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

It's not what they do, but why they did it.

You could generalize INTPs as misanthropes with empathy, torn between a deep loathing for society as a whole, yet deeply compassionate (in our own way) towards the individuals within it. Y'see it's all to do with understanding, our highly abstract mind enables us to see the "big picture" with incredible depth and clarity, which makes the many flaws of society almost personally insulting, like standing in a dog turd and having the smell follow you where ever you go. But what stops us from being consumed by misanthropy is our minds' ability to explore the minds of others, which kinda makes it hard to hate them, how can we when it’s self-evidently like hating children, for merely being children?

I want to kill you all, but not you specifically, I just want you to be happy.
It's all severely fucked up, and indifference is so much easier.

I hate humanity but don't hate people.

 

[PirateDessa]

To be perfectly honest I think I relate to the "bad" guys more because, well, they tend to be more interesting than the "good" guys. Their reasoning is always more convoluted, their methods more meticulous, and they don't run around basing decisions on some high and mighty principles they didn't have to actually think about.

They actually use their minds, as opposed to following dogma.

 

[The Gopher]

Not sure if you have seen Thor. It was better that I expected it to be but I sympathised (for want of a better word) with Loki.