Dealing with failure.

[Taniwha]

Hey guys,
I was just wondering how you guys deal with the concept of failure.

Failure is nothing new to me, I've been failing my whole entire young life.
I want to go off to university and finish my education in the fine arts.
However I have already failed two times in a row and after a year's break I am questioning whether or not its a good idea to have another shot at it. Going to university is expensive. I've never really been that good at academics, hell, I failed elementary school. I was home-schooled during my teens and taught myself what I wanted to learn. I got to learn at my own pace, which unfortunately was my down fall. You can't set your own pace in a academics, you have to follow of the system. I like to take my time. For the papers I did pass, I got top marks. My fear is If I don't complete my papers then I'll never be able to have a future in the arts. My dream career is to become an animation director. Unfortunately in this world, everything requires a piece of paper.

I also don't tend to work very well in a class room environment (too many people is distracting) I prefer to work one on one with tutors, which you don't get often at universities. And it takes me forever to design something from scratch to finish, I'm a perfectionist. And even then I tend to bin my work.

I feel stupid and worthless when I fail.
I try my hardest and even then its not enough.

What to do? I have no idea, that's where you guys come in.
So please, post away.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

As most of us are probably going through the same thing as you I suspect only the more experienced members here could give helpful advice.

That said, I have my ego deflated all the time, the only thing you can do is keep on movin'.

 

[BigApplePi]

How to deal with failure is a good topic. But your post has me thinking this ... and you may not want to hear it: you talk like an individualist. Underneath we are not. People are group people which is not easy to understand. Individuals do not fail. They only fail relative to others. If you want to succeed, you must group think. That means do and behave as they do. But only when necessary or you feel like it. We, especially introverts, must always come back to ourselves.

I recall sitting in junior high English class. We were being taught grammar. The teacher went around the room calling on people. I sat in fear. But that fear held my attention and I learned something. If I had rebelled, I would have kept my individuality, but lost what the teacher was trying to group teach.

 

[Taniwha]

How to deal with failure is a good topic. But your post has me thinking this ... and you may not want to hear it: you talk like an individualist. Underneath we are not. People are group people which is not easy to understand. Individuals do not fail. They only fail relative to others. If you want to succeed, you must group think. That means do and behave as they do. But only when necessary or you feel like it. We, especially introverts, must always come back to ourselves.

I have to admit, I had to refer to the dictionary on what an Individualist was. I totally agree with what you say.
Throughout my times of failure I have become more withdrawn, I love working with people but there is a part of me that is afraid to do so. Last year at University I backed out of my papers to help those that were struggling with their papers, they passed, I didn't. I can't pass if I see others around me failing, Its unfair and it makes me frustrated. My tutors got frustrated at me, they kept telling me it was their own faults if they failed. I'm not quite sure why I gave up on myself to help those around me.
I didn't want to fail, but I saw that the others around me were more important than myself.

 

[BigApplePi]

More thoughts: I am continually failing. My diagnosis is one fails and fails and fail until they succeed. Giving up is an option, but then one goes onto something else and sooner or later success arrives. For two weeks now I have wanted to post a new thread on "Understanding." But I can't write the introduction because I've been unable to get into the mood for the audience. I may decide "the hell with it" and post awkwardly anyway. That won't be a literary success but at least it will be out there. Now to your post:

I was home-schooled during my teens and taught myself what I wanted to learn. I got to learn at my own pace, which unfortunately was my down fall. You can't set your own pace in a academics, you have to follow of the system.

You learned that way. You have to learn a different way to succeed within the system. (1) The system and (2) Your topic of studies.

I like to take my time. For the papers I did pass, I got top marks. My fear is If I don't complete my papers then I'll never be able to have a future in the arts. My dream career is to become an animation director. Unfortunately in this world, everything requires a piece of paper.

The paper is to let others know you qualify in the system. You know you have ability.

I also don't tend to work very well in a class room environment (too many people is distracting) I prefer to work one on one with tutors, which you don't get often at universities.

That's what I mean. You need to learn a new way of learning.

And it takes me forever to design something from scratch to finish, I'm a perfectionist. And even then I tend to bin my work.

I'm not sure but doesn't a perfectionist fear failure? To hell with it. Go ahead and be imperfect ... if it gets you there. Plenty of time to polish a finished product later.

I feel stupid and worthless when I fail.
I try my hardest and even then its not enough.
What to do? I have no idea, that's where you guys come in.
So please, post away.

In a group someone temporarily failing is lost in the crowd. You aren't stupid and worthless. What the heck. I posted this.

 

[BigApplePi]

I have to admit, I had to refer to the dictionary on what an Individualist was. I totally agree with what you say.
Throughout my times of failure I have become more withdrawn, I love working with people but there is a part of me that is afraid to do so. Last year at University I backed out of my papers to help those that were struggling with their papers, they passed, I didn't. I can't pass if I see others around me failing, Its unfair and it makes me frustrated. My tutors got frustrated at me, they kept telling me it was their own faults if they failed. I'm not quite sure why I gave up on myself to help those around me.
I didn't want to fail, but I saw that the others around me were more important than myself.

"Individualist" lol. I just made up that word not realizing it could be googled.

You say you "love working with people"? That surprised me and sounds good. Maybe you could be a teacher. But to do that you have to master the subject first and you haven't as yet. So go back to being able to learn for YOU. If and when I try to help others, it could be because I'm trying to avoid my own failure. So it's a matter of recognizing that.

 

[Da Blob]

One of the primary frustrations in the life of the gifted/intelligence is that society is not set up to deal with such. Rather society is built to deal with the average and mediocre individuals, who outnumber us 100 to 1.

I was always amazed by the fact that I was expected to provide documentation of my intelligence, in the form of a diploma, when dealing with prospective employers or any social institution (?).

So It Goes, if society has things that you want, you have to play their game to win those things, that includes buying/earning a diploma. I just would not consider earning a diploma part of an education - it is merely a process of acquiring credentials and I would not be too scrupulous about how that happens...

As far as failure. Error is a necessary component of the Trial and Error method of dealing with life. If a person can not deal with Errors by learning from them on a continuous basis, then they most likely fail at the bigger Trial of dealing with Life...

 

[gruesomebrat]

I have to admit, I had to refer to the dictionary on what an Individualist was. I totally agree with what you say.
Throughout my times of failure I have become more withdrawn, I love working with people but there is a part of me that is afraid to do so. Last year at University I backed out of my papers to help those that were struggling with their papers, they passed, I didn't. I can't pass if I see others around me failing, Its unfair and it makes me frustrated. My tutors got frustrated at me, they kept telling me it was their own faults if they failed. I'm not quite sure why I gave up on myself to help those around me.
I didn't want to fail, but I saw that the others around me were more important than myself.

I've had this myself... well, not so much helping someone else to the point that my own work suffers too much, but being unable to see someone else fail. Especially in courses that I excel in, like Math and Accounting, people seem to do better in the class I'm in than the other classes in the school. Perhaps because I tend to act as a second teacher? Or rather, a one-on-one in-class tutor. I'm back in high school now to finish the last couple courses I need for my diploma, and I'm finding in all three classes this semester that I have no trouble with the material, so I spend most of my time helping my classmates along.

I learned early on, though, that I have to spend 15-20 minutes at the beginning of class to make sure my marks stay up. This seems to work relatively well. Once your own work is finished, at least at a passing grade, you can then spend as much time as you want helping others out. The 20 minutes of working on your own stuff has the added benefit of refreshing in your mind the lesson for the day, and means that you can reference specific examples of how a principle works. I know that this works well in any math-based course, and seems to work in English. I don't know beyond that...

Unfortunately, since you're in university, and I have no experience with formal education that advanced (other than tutoring a couple friends who are/were in university), I can't say if this will necessarily work in that situation.

 

[CoryJames]

I do not generally fail, at least not in the sense of academics or athletics and such. When I do fail I find it very difficult to deal with, and usually internalize my emotions and sort of go into a self destructive mode. That is why my disciplinary record is so bad...

 

[nexion]

I am sorry you feel like that. *insert sad emoticon here*

Failure is personal. One fails only when his own goals are not met by himself. Even though I "believe" that, I don't always practice it. I frequently compare myself to others who are more capable than me. But I also have a very non-competitive nature. I never play to win and I detest systems in which one is necessarily placed over another.

How do I deal with failure? I make specific failures almost impossible by rarely ever setting goals for myself. Yet, for some reason or another, I still often feel a general sense of failure. I therefore would not recommend that you deal with failure by refusing to create goals.

Other people here could give you much better advice. Not setting goals probably isn't that healthy.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

When I fail at something I'm good at I engage in a depression spiral, blaming myself. After a week or two, I pick myself up and attempt to remedy the situation or move on.

The main reason why I have failed at anything is that I don't know what people want. Further more, people change the premise of what they want and don't formally notify me. It is the bane of the education system.

---

As for being one of those one in a hundred people, if you have the money or information, there are learning facilities specifically designed for such people.

I attended one for my last two years at high school. The tuition was heavily subsidized by the school, government and parents. I turned up to school for 4 hours a day and worked in the afternoon. The facility also taught the kids that couldn't be controlled in general schooling. Such kids required to be respected before they were able to follow directions. It somewhat interesting.

---

 

[Saoshyant]

To put it in a baseball analogy, INTPs are the batter who hits for a good percentage but never goes for the homerun. Therefore, we have a high average and are dumbfounded when we load up the bat to hit the homerun and strikeout. I hope people understand the basics of baseball to understand my analogy!

 

[nexion]

To put it in a baseball analogy, INTPs are the batter who hits for a good percentage but never goes for the homerun. Therefore, we have a high average and are dumbfounded when we load up the bat to hit the homerun and strikeout. I hope people understand the basics of baseball to understand my analogy!

Brilliant analogy.

 

[Sirocco]

I'd like to get the analogy but unfortunately, like most Europeans, I'm almost completely baseball-challenged.

About failure.. Perhaps what motivates me the most to succeed and move forward (and I'm definitely not an ambitious person so it takes a lot of effort) is the stupidity of others. Very often I wouldn't even care to participate in a team discussion 'cause I'd consider my thoughts irrelevant to what others say. For me (and I guess for most INTPs) it's just amazing why people would state obvious facts or ponder over simple truths. Instead of going deep, my co-workers or classmates just need to go through all the chit-chat, then the mega obvious data and then (maybe!) get to the point.

It's like we work on different frequencies. I study at a business school where the majority of people are extroverts - outgoing, ambitious, entrepreneurial spirits. Instead, I don't speak unless necessary and don't share too much of my ideas, just observe in silence. What always makes me more active, though, is the annoying overparticipation of people who don't deserve attention and just waste everybody's time. "Justice!", my mind screams, and then... I jump on the wagon.

Think about it. You have potential. Some people with less potential than yours get successful because of your INTPness (not giving a damn about applying your knowledge to something practical). Now just sit down and concentrate on what's the most important - fighting lethargical philosophy ridden evenings and.. read more.

 

[Zero]

Failure is there if you're not trying. At least that's what they say.

The feeling of failure is there when things aren't working exactly how we want them to, when it isn't perfect or we aren't perfect. At least that's how it seems to me. People say I'm a perfectionist. In some ways I am, but in more ways I'm not. I'm very analytical and I figure things out, I can find the ideal and "the perfect" and I may want things to work that way, but that doesn't necessarily mean they will. When they don't, it feels like failing. It's like, I know how this works, then why can't I make it work? Though basically that's the warrant for the baseball analogy.

The feeling of failure I get is usually not because I'm failing, but because I end up trying too hard or pick at one detail too much. I learn best by fleshing out answers. By getting through something the first time, even with flaws or being makeshift as it might end up. I have to finish whatever it is I'm doing first, no matter how crappy it comes out. This is how it works for me with digital art. I have to do the rough sketch in one sitting and then I have to apply the colors in one sitting. I don't have the patience to come back and work a little bit on something each day. So I end up having to throw it down as best I can at the time, I might let it sit for a long time after that, but eventually I'll come back to it and edit it. What it comes down to is that I usually learn and do things by "failing" the first time. It's like a test the first time. The key is that I have to complete whatever it is, regardless of how much it "fails."

I'm also trying to finish college. I hate going to school. I think the whole process of what I'm doing is flawed, but supposedly that degree is worth it. When I see how reality works it really pisses me off. Going to a university is like "doing your time." When I read about the business trends and what's going on, I can't figure out why the heck I'm still in a classroom. The "foot in the door" method is networking. In most jobs there will be on the job training. On a resume a degree is a bonus, but experience counts the most. Even so, I'm trying to finish. Despite all the trends and what everyone thinks is working, there have been statistics to show that a degree usually means higher pay. It's still good to have.

Today, I actually felt disappointed when I didn't get comments or criticism from my writing teacher... At this point I can't "fail" at writing. I understand the rules, the styles and what they want on a paper. Now, I just like a challenge.

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

More thoughts: I am continually failing. My diagnosis is one fails and fails and fail until they succeed. Giving up is an option, but then one goes onto something else and sooner or later success arrives.

Yes

I used to have a big complex about being a quitter. I felt like I had failed & quit my way through a lot of activities. So when I started thinking that I should transfer colleges... I said "fuck no, I am going to tough it out here and finish this here, otherwise people are going to think I can't follow through with anything."
So I did. It was maybe not a great choice, but it's given me some confidence. And now that I've "proven" to "others" that I have follow-through, I don't feel bad when i flit from project to project.

There's a quote I love: "The joy is not in winning, the joy is in being defeated by greater and greater opponents."

For two weeks now I have wanted to post a new thread on "Understanding." But I can't write the introduction because I've been unable to get into the mood for the audience. I may decide "the hell with it" and post awkwardly anyway. That won't be a literary success but at least it will be out there.

Just fucking do it. <3

 

[BigApplePi]

To put it in a baseball analogy, INTPs are the batter who hits for a good percentage but never goes for the homerun. Therefore, we have a high average and are dumbfounded when we load up the bat to hit the homerun and strikeout. I hope people understand the basics of baseball to understand my analogy!

What about the pitcher who works around the edges of the plate going for the percentages? What if he hurls a balk?

I don't know what I just said, lol.

 

[anyaa]

I think its better to get your self some adjustments....if u wanna succeed at school...
on one hand u say u don't like group study....but u wanna succeed at school...
if u like studying alone by self(which is very good in fact..only that u meet ur instructor at some intervals one on one) u should b able to clear school at whatever cost(provided u study and succeed to orient ur study towards school type questions ,etc) ...I hope I can convey what i wanna say...
I too did the same ...I'm a mechanical engineer.. I to faced a complete burnout in my third +final year ... I realized to succeed at school u should "do" what they check..and probably it wont even go close to the detailed levels "we"take it to)

SUMMARY:
Just study by urself (no need for group study as such)....orient towards "them-the school"(though it suxx hard u have to do it..)..and 'll succeed on "Papers"...
and as far as the "real work-UR LIFE AIM " is considered..u can carry it behind the scenes..or when u get out to of school .. I did(and I'm doing) the same!

 

[gruesomebrat]

I think I agree with what Anyaa and others are saying. That if you want to succeed in school (or really anything in our society), you have to learn to do things the way society expects. I know personally, this always feels like living a lie, and there are days when I hate myself for doing it, but if getting your credentials is important enough to you, it is possible to get through that way. Keep in mind that you only have to "live the lie" for your actual school classes. Once you leave the classroom, there is no obligation to be anyone other than yourself...

Also agree with the sentiment that:

One of the primary frustrations in the life of the gifted/intelligence is that society is not set up to deal with such. Rather society is built to deal with the average and mediocre individuals, who outnumber us 100 to 1.

I was always amazed by the fact that I was expected to provide documentation of my intelligence, in the form of a diploma, when dealing with prospective employers or any social institution (?).

I have often found this about our society. Because we are so far ahead of the system, we are unable to focus on what the rest of our 'peers' (I use that term very loosely) are doing. I find this in high school right now, that in most areas of my courses, I'm lightyears ahead of my class, and couldn't care less what they're doing... unfortunately, this leads to assignments not being finished, because I'm more focused on turning my learning elsewhere...

The fact that we must provide documentation of our intelligence also bothers me. Unfortunately, it's not just with jobs. Like Blob said, it's "any social institution". This includes banks, unfortunately, which makes it harder than ever before to get a business start-up loan. If you go to a bank looking for a startup loan nowadays, they want at least Grade 12 diploma, proof you know the field you're going into (employment in the field for 5 years, or a diploma/certificate related to the field), and a comprehensive business plan, including market research, cost analysis, projected cash flow statements, and an in-depth look at what you are planning on doing.

As someone who does not work well in a subordinate position, self-employment has always seemed like the best way for me to go, and yet, I can't seem to do it, because I can't raise the start-up capital. I'm considering starting a corporation, as that way I can issue stock to raise capital, but in order to do that, I need to find a lawyer who is willing to help me organize said corporation and will take shares as payment... even that may be starting to get rare to find now, though...

 

[Onis]

I fail all the time. Failure is part of learning. I fail so often that I don't even care about it anymore - I fail until I get a success.

Doing something related to art (animation, illustration, 3d, etc) does not require a paper - only a lot of talent. No one (who has brains) cares if you have an awesome paper about how great you're at drawing if your portfolio looks mediocre or less. No one cares if you don't have a paper, if your portfolio is golden.

It's never too late to start learning how to draw - There are several people who started at 40 year old, studied 10 hours a day and became Pretty Damn Good in less than 5 years. It takes time, dedication and understanding on what are the best methods for you to learn.

If you want to learn, pick up you pen, get to life drawing classes. Find the fastest way to learn how to draw, forget about creating Perfect, Pretty pictures for now. The 20 hours you spent in detailing the last pic you could have learnt on how the knee works and looks like from different angles. (which is instantly an increasement in your ability - your last picture will only show what level you are in currently.)

The greatest thing about art school so far is the access to knowledge that I've gained. 2 Libraries full of books about art, good tips on what to learn and how, where to start and how everything connects within each other. Even if I were not to get a job after all this, I wouldn't care. So far I would say that it's well worth it, even if I could never get a better job than cleaning.

 

[Zero]

Hm, the size of the school can make a big difference to how well one can handle it.

I went to community college (finished there, I technically have an associate degree), then I went to a small university, which was okay. I had to move. Now I'm going to a "mega-university." Very different feel. I wish I had gone to a smaller university after moving.

Coincidently, I was also homeschooled during highschool and was basically self-taught.

 

[Taniwha]

I fail all the time. Failure is part of learning. I fail so often that I don't even care about it anymore - I fail until I get a success.

Doing something related to art (animation, illustration, 3d, etc) does not require a paper - only a lot of talent. No one (who has brains) cares if you have an awesome paper about how great you're at drawing if your portfolio looks mediocre or less. No one cares if you don't have a paper, if your portfolio is golden.

It's never too late to start learning how to draw - There are several people who started at 40 year old, studied 10 hours a day and became Pretty Damn Good in less than 5 years. It takes time, dedication and understanding on what are the best methods for you to learn.

If you want to learn, pick up you pen, get to life drawing classes. Find the fastest way to learn how to draw, forget about creating Perfect, Pretty pictures for now. The 20 hours you spent in detailing the last pic you could have learnt on how the knee works and looks like from different angles. (which is instantly an increasement in your ability - your last picture will only show what level you are in currently.)

The greatest thing about art school so far is the access to knowledge that I've gained. 2 Libraries full of books about art, good tips on what to learn and how, where to start and how everything connects within each other. Even if I were not to get a job after all this, I wouldn't care. So far I would say that it's well worth it, even if I could never get a better job than cleaning.

In the art world it is different because people want to see talent over qualifications, I have seen people leave art schools with diploma's and I scratch my head to find out how they even got in to art school in the first place. I couldn't care less for a piece of paper, what I really want is knowledge and recognition by meeting other great artists and getting my work out there.

I know how to draw, I've been drawing now for the last past 8 years.
Life drawing classes are some of my most favorite places to hang out and learn. I have had the privilege to work along side with other great artists. But in a small town like where I live (and the country in general), no one wants art. Its all trades here, so you have to fight like hell to get recognition and that means exhibiting overseas. I have a plan, and I know what needs to be done. Its just going to take allot of willpower and determination to get there. Next year I intend to work outside the system and train under my old art tutor as the government has refused to fund me to go to university (studylink). I pretty much dedicate about 8 hours a day to drawing and digital painting.