Considering Programming Career?

[Turniphead]

For the past few years I have been working towards a "career" in the illustration/concept art field. I initially got into it not because I have had a constant need to draw, but because it seemed like the path most compatible with my natural strengths(visuals/problem solving) and lifestyle(less formal).

I do enjoy it, but it's also a huge amount of work. The return(monetary) for the investment of work has so far been negligible. Although I am certainly expecting that to change at some point.

At this point I am left wondering if I wouldn't be better off working in the IT world.
Why?
Because it seems easier to get a monetary return for the amount of work put into it.
I would of course be able to do artwork on the side, as well as possibly doing some experimenting with game creation as I would have both the art and programming skills.

I'm trying to get a sense of whether or not this is an accurate view.
I have very little knowledge of how the computer world works. So if anyone could point out more specific jobs than just "programming", or what these jobs actually entail, that would be helpful.


I'm also just trying to get a feel for how much I actually would enjoy programming. I took a high school class however many years ago that was. It was on C++.
I remember it being mildly interesting at the time. The teacher wasn't very engaging though and I never fully understood the connection between what we were doing and the practical applications for it.

I've picked up a book on Python 3 so I'm going to give that a try and see If I can get into it.

 

[Dapper Dan]

You may actually be able to mix the two. Software companies need design and usability people to ensure that their applications are presentable and make sense to the user. If you've got a knack for the visual, it may be worth looking into.

 

[pjoa09]

C++ sucks!

GO PYTHON !

 

[inner_mind]

Backing up what Dapper Dan said...
I am not in the IT industry. I came on this thread hoping for tips lol. I mess around with Java a little. Python too, its a nice language, look up MIT opencourseware and their beginners programming course teaches Python.

But one thing seems for sure, that there are 2 major sides to a lot of IT, development and design.

Being a programmer with design skills certainly won't hurt.

Nor would being a designer with programming skills.

I can't say where the money is. But any area that includes a user interface may be where you might fit in the best with your design skills.

I wish I could give you a better idea, but I will be looking at other peoples suggestions. But at least, at my work, in which I do not work in IT, there is a guy that programs the ticketing machines to interact with people who purchase tickets (this involves no design side). Another creates the custom made programs we use to identify and record machine faults. This involves design, but at my work at least, it is pretty bland. Finally there is a guy that just works on Microsoft Access creating and fixing it so it is user friendly for us to search the database.
You might also consider the world of web programming. Programming of Smart TVs is picked to be an up-and-coming area. Mobile web apps...

 

[intpz]

C++ sucks!

GO PYTHON !

I consider Python a scripting language.

 

[Affinity]

I was in the digital media field as well not too long ago and it became a bit too monotonous for me. My passion for photography and art in general was severely diminished and financial wise, it was good for the time but it wasn't anything I could realistically retire on. Like you, I took C++ in high school, except during that time, I could not grasp it. I got discouraged and never considered pursuing programming again, until earlier this year. This time around, things are lot better. I am able to understand programming a lot better. It is challenging, yet rewarding. It's something I don't necessarily love, but I don't necessarily hate either, which to me is perfect career material. So I say do it! Make good money and have time aside to work on the things you enjoy. Or combine them even like others have said.

PS - I'm planning to go into mobile app development because that seems to be where things are changing really fast. I want to develop something that I would use regularly myself whilst making money off of it as long as it's in the market. Something that appeals to me is if you have good ideas that aren't too difficult to execute, you could realistically make a good living coding at home or in your free time.

 

[pjoa09]

I consider Python a scripting language.

Well you can consider it whatever you want. It makes more sense.

Excuse the lateness.

 

[hablahdoo]

I think programming is super cool (being a Comp Sci major) but never expect it to be easy money. Experienced programmers do make a good living but the reason is that the job takes a lot of knowledge. It takes time to develop that.

But I think you're on the right track checking it out to see if it's something you want to do. Python is indeed a good place to start. If you put the time into practice and understanding the underlying concepts you'll get good. It's just about how bad you want it. It determines whether you get the jobs nobody wants or the fun ones.

Disclaimer: Just my impression of the field don't weight my words too heavily

C++ sucks!

GO PYTHON !

Meh. The rules of python are designed to be readable and nice to the user. The rules of C++ are designed to be efficient and powerful. They have their niches. I'm sure plenty of C++ devs use Python for personal tools, and plenty of Python devs use C++ for problems involving heavy computation.

 

[pjoa09]

Meh. The rules of python are designed to be readable and nice to the user. The rules of C++ are designed to be efficient and powerful. They have their niches. I'm sure plenty of C++ devs use Python for personal tools, and plenty of Python devs use C++ for problems involving heavy computation.

I agree.

 

[walfin]

Currently I think the most marketable language is still PHP.

The sheer amount of web-related work to be done for existing companies is enough to guarantee most decent programmers sufficient employment to get by.

I don't see a large-scale move to Ruby or Node.js yet due to lack of hosting (plus, hosting is more troublesome due to the use of an app server - similar reason to why JSP isn't that common either). So long as most hosts provide PHP integrated with the server by default it'll continue to be one of the most popular languages. Plus, many corporate websites run on Joomla/CakePHP/some other PHP based CMS.

Not every company needs in-house software but every company needs a website and chances are most need one or two minor customised things that they can't get off the shelf. Even if they knew how to set up a simple Joomla website they'd most likely just pay someone to do it.

 

[Architect]

For the past few years I have been working towards a "career" in the illustration/concept art field. I initially got into it not because I have had a constant need to draw, but because it seemed like the path most compatible with my natural strengths(visuals/problem solving) and lifestyle(less formal).

I do enjoy it, but it's also a huge amount of work. The return(monetary) for the investment of work has so far been negligible. Although I am certainly expecting that to change at some point.

Yes, illustration tends to be the domain of the sensor. While definitely INTP's can have talent in this area and enjoy drawing and illustration, as a professional career the amount of work and the type of work is not something generally suited to the temperament. IN's work best as conceptual artists usually (my IN wife is an artist). Also as you say it's not something that makes a lot of money typically.

At this point I am left wondering if I wouldn't be better off working in the IT world. Why? Because it seems easier to get a monetary return for the amount of work put into it.

Yes, this is true however any career will take up a significant portion of your life, so you'd better do something that you enjoy.

I would of course be able to do artwork on the side, as well as possibly doing some experimenting with game creation as I would have both the art and programming skills.

That is simply possible however people tend to compartmentalize with their work. One reason is because there is so much work to be done it's usually not feasible to wear multiple hats.

So if anyone could point out more specific jobs than just "programming", or what these jobs actually entail, that would be helpful.

It kind of defies categorization. Most employers are hiring general software engineers which means that the actual details of which are doing depends entirely upon the job. Certainly writing software is the most common activity.

I'm also just trying to get a feel for how much I actually would enjoy programming. I took a high school class however many years ago that was. It was on C++. I remember it being mildly interesting at the time. The teacher wasn't very engaging though and I never fully understood the connection between what we were doing and the practical applications for it.

It's impossible for any of us to tell you the answer to this question. However I believe and my experience tells me that a software career affords the most possibility for an INTP having a good career and life.

 

[Valentas]

Hi, brother,

I am also in mindset of choosing programming. You are not alone.

 

[intpz]

I'm definitely not going for programming... Too boring, I want something more creative than code.

 

[Architect]

Code is not boring, code is everything.

We are code, our genome is a compressed binary code. The entire arc of your life is determined by that code, primarily through the sexual and aging programming. Yes our lives are more than our programming, but we are filling in the borders, the frame of our life is our code.

With regards to programming, code is fascinating. At the lowest level it is a pile of 1's and 0's - not too interesting at first glance, but these are just code for the microprocessor - very interesting how all that works. One step above that is a language representation such as C. This is better, now we can discern structure and design. Or we could just have a pile of code. One more step above that is design and architecture. We are architects after all, aren't we? This is where software becomes truly wonderful. How does it fit together? What is the architecture? Is it one that works? Architectures that work make it easy to extend and develop the software. Bad architectures (most of them out there) make it hard to develop the system. I get a huge charge working on a software system with a beautiful architecture.

Finally, the ultimate code in life is in our heads, and we are just beginning to decipher that. The adventure is just beginning ...

EDIT: For example, I'm studying the First Respoder chain in Cocoa

Event Handling

This is different from the Windows event chain which is far more liberal. This is why Dragon Dictate can hook into any text entry on Windows easily, but has a harder time on OS X. Seemingly small architectural decisions can have huge implications on what can be done with the software.

This kind of stuff lights an INTP on fire ... not unlike how excited physicists get when discovering how a different system - the universe - works.

 

[Valentas]

Wow, you are truly code man. For me, when I am so inexperienced, code is very hard to crack thing. When I try to comprehend one, I break it apart and just stare at it, trying to figure out what it means. I guess and then check my answers. Usually I fail of course but it is normal...To be honest, more fascinating thing is website design. I love to try be an artist a bit. I write html and css mixture, experiment just to see how colors, fonts, cool effects change.

 

[Vrecknidj]

For the past few years I have been working towards a "career" in the illustration/concept art field. I initially got into it not because I have had a constant need to draw, but because it seemed like the path most compatible with my natural strengths(visuals/problem solving) and lifestyle(less formal).

The people I know who are successful in the field of graphic arts, illustration, etc., are very hard-working, very talented, and have a vast network of contacts and friends. They are constantly producing images, whether under contract or no. They work ceaselessly.

I have very little knowledge of how the computer world works. So if anyone could point out more specific jobs than just "programming", or what these jobs actually entail, that would be helpful.

The people I know who are successful in the IT fields are very hard-working, very talented, and have a vast network of contacts and friends. They are constantly producing material whether under contract or no. They work ceaselessly.

Does that help?

Dave

 

[Turniphead]

Following up my post from 3 months ago...

I found python difficult to get into, (or maybe just the learning format was not very stimulating) so I haven't learned much.

I have been working with the gamemaker language/program, working on a game for the last week. Hopefully that can lead me into other languages when it becomes too limited. (This game was made with it, so it might take a while)

I'm finding digital game creation rather amazing so far; it's the perfect blend of design, artwork, and thinking. It's like being a kid again( I made a number of board games when I was younger).
I've been putting way more time into this, with less effort, than I ever have while working on illustration projects for their own sake.

Does that help?

Dave

Well... I already knew that for the "Arts". Not so much for "IT"... ha. Should have been obvious I guess.

 

[intpz]

Code is not boring, code is everything.

We are code, our genome is a compressed binary code. The entire arc of your life is determined by that code, primarily through the sexual and aging programming. Yes our lives are more than our programming, but we are filling in the borders, the frame of our life is our code.

With regards to programming, code is fascinating. At the lowest level it is a pile of 1's and 0's - not too interesting at first glance, but these are just code for the microprocessor - very interesting how all that works. One step above that is a language representation such as C. This is better, now we can discern structure and design. Or we could just have a pile of code. One more step above that is design and architecture. We are architects after all, aren't we? This is where software becomes truly wonderful. How does it fit together? What is the architecture? Is it one that works? Architectures that work make it easy to extend and develop the software. Bad architectures (most of them out there) make it hard to develop the system. I get a huge charge working on a software system with a beautiful architecture.

Finally, the ultimate code in life is in our heads, and we are just beginning to decipher that. The adventure is just beginning ...

EDIT: For example, I'm studying the First Respoder chain in Cocoa

Event Handling

This is different from the Windows event chain which is far more liberal. This is why Dragon Dictate can hook into any text entry on Windows easily, but has a harder time on OS X. Seemingly small architectural decisions can have huge implications on what can be done with the software.

This kind of stuff lights an INTP on fire ... not unlike how excited physicists get when discovering how a different system - the universe - works.

@Architect while code is everything, that doesn't mean that it's interesting. In fact, I doubt that anybody is interested in zeros and ones.

It doesn't "set me on fire" at all. While I like figuring out problems, I don't like learning a lot of coding. I want to manage and get my idea out there, see that it's done properly. Not actually get to the bones and carve it myself.

 

[Architect]

while code is everything, that doesn't mean that it's interesting.

That's a relative statement, I didn't say everybody would find it interesting.

In fact, I doubt that anybody is interested in zeros and ones.

A lot of people are. I know an engineer at Apple who enjoys reading binary code

It doesn't "set me on fire" at all.

You made that point abundantly clear already.

 

[intpz]

@Architect by 1s and 0s I mean literally 1s and 0s. I don't mean the actual code, as I got the vibe that you meant 1s and 0s by something.

Anyway, at first, I used to like the idea of coding, creating something... But later I realized that it's too dull, repetitive and full of rules.

I may, however, make another attempt at creating a game, however I may drop it if I won't find an artist and voice actors IF I manage to "get into it" enough to complete the physics, graphics engines and a demo level, perhaps a menu as well.

While it all sounds very exciting to me, when I get down to the code, it gets rather dull.

 

[pjoa09]

@Architect by 1s and 0s I mean literally 1s and 0s. I don't mean the actual code, as I got the vibe that you meant 1s and 0s by something.

Anyway, at first, I used to like the idea of coding, creating something... But later I realized that it's too dull, repetitive and full of rules.

I may, however, make another attempt at creating a game, however I may drop it if I won't find an artist and voice actors IF I manage to "get into it" enough to complete the physics, graphics engines and a demo level, perhaps a menu as well.

While it all sounds very exciting to me, when I get down to the code, it gets rather dull.

Art?

 

[Guess]

I'm definitely not going for programming... Too boring, I want something more creative than code.

Hmmm.

I guess you missed architect´s point. The basic of programming may sound dull. But once you are past the basic and you move more into software modeling, software engineering and, especially software architecture it involve loads of creativity. Software development is not my main activity (I am a researcher), but it is an essential tool for my work and part of my work today is being somewhat of a software architect

Maybe your first experiences with programming made you think that programming is all about typing repetitive structures... Well, anyone with a little training can do that. A focus on that part of the process will only lead to repetitive strain injuries.
But that is not what programming is about beyond the basics. Even moderately complex software systems can only be properly created and maintained by doing creative software engineering work.
Here are some of the questions I am faced daily. What does reality look like? How could it be? How can I model it? What is the essence of this in reality? How can I generalize this concept? How should I name this concept? How can I connect thousands of small elements into a large working system?

In order to answer these question it involves a lot of creativity, logical thinking and intuition, which should be at the core of our Ti-Ne . I can tell you, once software becomes complex most people struggle hardtime to understand the big picture and navigate between the hierarchy of thousands of connected things from macroscopic to microscopic. Anyone can improve that with experience, but as an experienced INTP I can do it well above average (and I can see architect has a similar experience about it). Well, and working with undocumented software (a common reality) involves also a lot of reverse engineering . Did you ever see Paycheck movie (2003)? It looks a little bit like that. You need to figure out what possibly could have been in other people´s mind when they created the software. And then of course you understand it so that you can make it much better!

P.S. I love C++, but that´s after 11 years of experience and yes I work with very demanding processing. I found weird that some guys here took C++ course at high school. It is not the easiest language to start, especially at a high school level...

 

[Architect]

I guess you missed architect´s point.

Thank you. While I'm not trying to say that every INTP in the world has to absolutely love programming, I believe that if they give it a fair shake the majority of them will. Additionally, considering the availability and pay scale of jobs I think it makes for the ideal career for an INTP.

For those that don't like it (and who are INTP for sure) I would suggest they consider whether they really've given it a fair shake or not. It's far too easy for an INTP to not perform enough analysis. In this case, simply doing a little bit of programming and then concluding that it's too detail work and too low level means that they haven't given enough consideration to it.

once software becomes complex most people struggle hardtime to understand the big picture and navigate between the hierarchy of thousands of connected things from macroscopic to microscopic

Precisely, small programs are somewhat too simple and boring. I used to work on a 3 million line program of enormous complexity, I loved it and became the lead architect.

 

[intpz]

Art?

Damn right! There are some great stuff around the net, 1s and 0s to make a picture, also color play, or hue/saturation. Awesome stuff, they can look absolutely amazing. Well, some of them anyway. I've seen a site with a HUGE picture like that. I was wondering - how long did it take to do all that?

I guess you missed architect´s point. The basic of programming may sound dull. But once you are past the basic and you move more into software modeling, software engineering and, especially software architecture it involve loads of creativity. Software development is not my main activity (I am a researcher), but it is an essential tool for my work and part of my work today is being somewhat of a software architect

Exactly - not CODING something, but thinking of how to do it. That, I am attracted to. Now somebody's getting my point!

I can agree that it's interesting (the rest of your post), however I wouldn't want to do that, because I want to make my ideas reality. I could do it, and probably I wouldn't hate figuring out how I can do something better all day long, but in the end, I want to work on getting my ideas out, making them reality, making them work, and while focusing on their quality - monetizing them. If I was to develop a game, I wouldn't distribute it freely. PAY FUCKERS!

P.S. I love C++, but that´s after 11 years of experience and yes I work with very demanding processing. I found weird that some guys here took C++ course at high school. It is not the easiest language to start, especially at a high school level...

We have no such courses, we have Pascal. It sucks ass, after already knowing C++ by 10th grade, Pascal was very hard to me, it was... Very primitive. I hated it. I couldn't do shit in it, compared to what I can do in C++. It's a piece of shit. If I could, I would delete every little piece of information there is about Pascal. It shouldn't have been used past '95. By the way, if we had such courses, I wouldn't take them, they wouldn't be in English. Non-English PC-related shit sucks ass and I'm not gonna learn it that way. Hell, I even think in English...

@Architect Consider this post as a reply to yours as well, I am getting more and more interested in what you have to say on this topic.

 

[pjoa09]

Precisely, small programs are somewhat too simple and boring. I used to work on a 3 million line program of enormous complexity, I loved it and became the lead architect.

3 million. damn. always scares me.

@intpz That too sounds tedious! I like drawing as a form of reflective unwinding. Just throw in whatever conceptual art comes to my head and call it a diary.

 

[intpz]

3 million. damn. always scares me.

@intpz That too sounds tedious! I like drawing as a form of reflective unwinding. Just throw in whatever conceptual art comes to my head and call it a diary.

While the work is tedious, the result looks cool. I wouldn't do anything like that myself though.

 

[Architect]

Exactly - not CODING something, but thinking of how to do it. That, I am attracted to. Now somebody's getting my point!

What's the difference? As in, what's the difference between thought and language? If you're a writer, how could you think about writing a book, without actually writing it? In thinking about a book you'd consider the characters, dialogue, scenes and plot. These are architectural issues that you would want to hammer out first. With that in hand you would be a very poor writer indeed to not then carefully craft your sentences.

Or consider a composer - same deal. You'd first consider type of music (orchestral, chamber) tempo, movements, genre (12 tone, avant-garde, classical), and eventually you'd actually start writing some music.

Writing software is the same. I've observed that how people do their work is temperament dependent. ISTPs and ISTJs just jump in with two feet and start coding, for example. I hate that kind of approach, I get lost in the trees for the forest. My approach is to work on the architecture first, then the design. When I finally get to the code it's merely a pleasant pastime; all the hard work has been done already. Ideally I've modeled the system already and most of the code has been written for me in the forward engineering tool. Getting the computer to write my code for me, with my job being the architecture and design, is a special pleasure I have.

Finally I'd say that for INTPs thinking about something (architecture) without doing is a very dangerous place. I've done that, as a paid professional, and it leads to a dead end. We need equal parts thinking and doing for healthy functioning.

Even Einstein wrote his own papers ...

 

[intpz]

What's the difference? As in, what's the difference between thought and language? If you're a writer, how could you think about writing a book, without actually writing it? In thinking about a book you'd consider the characters, dialogue, scenes and plot. These are architectural issues that you would want to hammer out first. With that in hand you would be a very poor writer indeed to not then carefully craft your sentences.

Or consider a composer - same deal. You'd first consider type of music (orchestral, chamber) tempo, movements, genre (12 tone, avant-garde, classical), and eventually you'd actually start writing some music.

Writing software is the same. I've observed that how people do their work is temperament dependent. ISTPs and ISTJs just jump in with two feet and start coding, for example. I hate that kind of approach, I get lost in the trees for the forest. My approach is to work on the architecture first, then the design. When I finally get to the code it's merely a pleasant pastime; all the hard work has been done already. Ideally I've modeled the system already and most of the code has been written for me in the forward engineering tool. Getting the computer to write my code for me, with my job being the architecture and design, is a special pleasure I have.

Finally I'd say that for INTPs thinking about something (architecture) without doing is a very dangerous place. I've done that, as a paid professional, and it leads to a dead end. We need equal parts thinking and doing for healthy functioning.

Even Einstein wrote his own papers ...

Not the same with programming, you still don't get my point.

Designing the arcitecture of the program is not the same as writing the code, even you've said it yourself that it's pleasant when the computer writes the code for you. Let's make a comparison:

"Thinking of what to write about and how to write it." = "Thinking of what's the big picture program like and what tinier parts do you need to reach it." Not a big difference, correlation is evident.

"Writing a book by using the language, words that you think in and say out loud every day, thousands of times in various creative ways." != "Learning a new language, a language that can only used for a sole purpose, and which is strictly defined (int cannot be asd); language that you can only use in strict ways unless nobody else needs to use your code."

See the difference? Coding isn't creative, THINKING of how to code and what you need to code IS creative. Thinking of what book to write and how to put together a UNIQUE SENTENCE in a UNIQUE way IS creative. You can't put "int szName = 'intpz';" in a creative way, can you.

@Architect Now, do you get what I was trying to say?

 

[Architect]

Designing the arcitecture of the program is not the same as writing the code, even you've said it yourself that it's pleasant when the computer writes the code for you.

Sure, but I'm referring to mechanics. Like writers who prefer the ease of using a computer over a typewriter, or those writers who like using paper and pencil for the physicality. I prefer using languages instead of assembly (meta programming)*.

See the difference? Coding isn't creative, THINKING of how to code and what you need to code IS creative. Thinking of what book to write and how to put together a UNIQUE SENTENCE in a UNIQUE way IS creative.

I get it, have all along, I just don't agree with it. The code IS the architecture**. What you are saying is like saying "I like sex, I just don't like having it; too messy and slippery". What? What do you like then, the idea of sex? You can't divorce the act from the thought. No virgin really knows what it's like until they do it. If you can truly divorce a sensation from the physicality, than that means you can explain what color is to a blind person, doesn't it?

No offense intended at all, but this is a (typically INTP) immature view. I had it myself when I was younger; my idea of heaven was getting to do all the (I thought) creative thinking work, while somebody else did the grunt.** Later I found it doesn't work that way, and certainly not for INTPs who can easily become too divorced from what they are trying to create.

Consider a software company. Is the CEO doing all the fun creative work? No probably not, too high up. What about the software managers, aren't they doing it, with the engineers just banging out code? In most companies the marriage of creativity and product is at the engineering level.

You can't put "int szName = 'intpz';" in a creative way, can you.

Uh yes. The form of the declarative statements actually is important because they already encapsulate architectural concepts, and some really interesting and creative things are done at that level. For example, what is better, providing an API or a DSL (Domain Specific Language) to solve a particular problem? A philosophical question which is debated all the time, and which shows the importance of form and not just function. I've designed and written my own language for a commercial system. Using it you can write a complex program (plug in) for the platform in about 100 lines of code. Using a general purpose language that would have taken a thousand. In this case the language is a high order one encapsulating high level architectural ideas.

The importance of code is made clear when you consider the difference between quantum and non quantum computing. Most problems we do in non-quantum programming aren't even expressible as quantum programs. Don't tell me the form of the code isn't interesting and creative.

* In this small way - using meta-programming, we might agree.

** UML elements which don't result in code are rather useless, aren't they? Certainly if you want to do forward & reverse engineering those elements aren't going to do much for you.

*** As I said somewhere I had this position for several years. I was the lead architect, for a team of architects for about 300 engineers. I didn't write a blessed line of code, I did everything in UML and solved the 'creative, hard problems'. Like I said it doesn't work that way, or at least doesn't work well.

 

[intpz]

Sure, but I'm referring to mechanics. Like writers who prefer the ease of using a computer over a typewriter, or those writers who like using paper and pencil for the physicality. I prefer using languages instead of assembly (meta programming)*.

To me, this sounds more like the compiler, OS and programming language rather than coding and thinking of how it can be coded.

I get it, have all along, I just don't agree with it. The code IS the architecture**. What you are saying is like saying "I like sex, I just don't like having it; too messy and slippery". What? What do you like then, the idea of sex? You can't divorce the act from the thought. No virgin really knows what it's like until they do it. If you can truly divorce a sensation from the physicality, than that means you can explain what color is to a blind person, doesn't it?

No offense intended at all, but this is a (typically INTP) immature view. I had it myself when I was younger; my idea of heaven was getting to do all the (I thought) creative thinking work, while somebody else did the grunt.** Later I found it doesn't work that way, and certainly not for INTPs who can easily become too divorced from what they are trying to create.

Consider a software company. Is the CEO doing all the fun creative work? No probably not, too high up. What about the software managers, aren't they doing it, with the engineers just banging out code? In most companies the marriage of creativity and product is at the engineering level.

No offense taken, I enjoy this discussion, I've already told you that. It does make me think about programming, processes and adds new information to my programming cabinet. Anyway, it's not how I see it, let me give you an example of how I understand it and let's work from there instead.

Designing an RPG:

• 3D, 2D, 2.5D, isometric? Linear, non-linear? Pixelated, comic, anime, realistic graphics, sounds, physics? Characters, interaction, stores... First you have to decide all that and a lot more. That is VERY interesting to me, as this is where my ideas come out. This is my favorite part - making decisions and foreseeing the whole project, compiling it into a one big sophisticated skeleton that the engineers and designers can work on.
• Then we move onto more detailed stuff, let's take quests for example. Often at least a few quests use the same algorithm: go, collect, kill, come back. However, what about those varying quests? What about go, talk, follow, protect, make a decision (Fallout?), unknowingly make something that would impact the quest (Fallout again), etc., and before writing the code, you have to think: how can I go about this, what is efficient, and more importantly - what is practical? How many quests will there be like this, can I hard-code it or do I need to write extra 1500 lines to make it portable?
• After making all those decisions, after deciding how you should go about the task, what approach you should use, what algorithmic parts of code you should use (portable or hard coded, and faster/more precise/etc.), you go to the coding part. You start thinking: how can I write all this shit down? And you start writing the code. Which is when it does get dull pretty damn quick.

This I would enjoy more than actually writing down the code, however I wouldn't enjoy it much. My favorite part is to come up with the ideas for the game and make important decisions on how to go about them, as step #1 says. Then write them down, discuss them, improve them, oversee the team about abstract (step 2) problems they may have and help to solve them in the most efficient way, see that the game lives up to the standards. Not to write the code myself.

Uh yes. The form of the declarative statements actually is important because they already encapsulate architectural concepts, and some really interesting and creative things are done at that level. For example, what is better, providing an API or a DSL (Domain Specific Language) to solve a particular problem? A philosophical question which is debated all the time, and which shows the importance of form and not just function. I've designed and written my own language for a commercial system. Using it you can write a complex program (plug in) for the platform in about 100 lines of code. Using a general purpose language that would have taken a thousand. In this case the language is a high order one encapsulating high level architectural ideas.

The importance of code is made clear when you consider the difference between quantum and non quantum computing. Most problems we do in non-quantum programming aren't even expressible as quantum programs. Don't tell me the form of the code isn't interesting and creative.

It is creative as long as you have freedom of writing it however you want, without applying the rules or making sure that it's readable by the team members. The syntax, however, cannot be creative as it's defined, unless you create your own programming language. Actually I had an idea to do it and was pretty damn serious about it when I was a kid, I think I wanted to be creative. As for the style, you usually choose one style and stick to it. I choose the most readable style how I see it, other popular choice is 3 or 4 spaces, if I recall correctly.

*** As I said somewhere I had this position for several years. I was the lead architect, for a team of architects for about 300 engineers. I didn't write a blessed line of code, I did everything in UML and solved the 'creative, hard problems'. Like I said it doesn't work that way, or at least doesn't work well.

To me, the most enjoyable things are named above, also somewhere else earlier. Micro-management (reasonable of course, I don't want to annoying the engineers) along with making decisions about various variables, improving my game ideas and adding new ideas about the game. That is what I am VERY interested in, this would be my dream career. It also should earn pretty good money, so a big house, nice car and all that shit I want are also included.

 

[pjoa09]

To me, the most enjoyable things are named above, also somewhere else earlier. Micro-management (reasonable of course, I don't want to annoying the engineers) along with making decisions about various variables, improving my game ideas and adding new ideas about the game. That is what I am VERY interested in, this would be my dream career. It also should earn pretty good money, so a big house, nice car and all that shit I want are also included.

Man you are weird. MICRO-MANAGEMENT. Seriously? You find that enjoyable?

So far I have only enjoyed doing little snippets and stuff. Gives me the giggles.

 

[intpz]

Man you are weird. MICRO-MANAGEMENT. Seriously? You find that enjoyable?

So far I have only enjoyed doing little snippets and stuff. Gives me the giggles.

As far as I'm concerned, micro-management is overlooking that the project is going well and potentially helping to solve various problems regarding your project (I doubt someone would ask "hey man, how to write this down, what's the syntax?", rather "I'm struggling with this algorithm for smooth character movement," which opens the door to theoretical solutions). So yes, I would enjoy that a lot, especially if it was my project. Almost as much as thinking of new ideas to improve or add to the current project/before the project.